Would this Paladin build work? (At least vaguely)

[nirurin]

Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Running as a Dexadin, instead of a Strongadin. 18 Dex, 18 Charisma. (To start, anyway).

Medium Armour. Stealth Proficiency. Defensive Fighting Style.

Crossbow Expert Feat. (Maybe Sharpshooter eventually)

Running with a Rapier + Hand Crossbow. (Drop rapier, reload, Pick up rapier = RAW way to use it, but DM is just going to skip that unless it matters in a particular situation eg. doing other actions in that turn).


So I would basically run as a standard Dex-based Paladin, but instead of needing to run into combat as fast as possible I would begin stealthed as often as possible, getting into a good position to do medium/short range hit-and-run attacks with the HandCrossbow (3 attacks per turn after level 5, isn't too bad). If/When I get cornered, or an enemy gets too close, I can change to 2xRapier and 1xCrossbow attacks per turn in melee range. I would still have the HP and AC to tank enemies better than most rangers/rogues/other skirmishers. Oh, and most importantly, I can destroy my foes with SMITES!

This build wouldn't work with Duelling (as I would have a weapon in my offhand), except perhaps in some fights when I decide AC is more important and I swap to carrying a Shield. Probably not worth spending the Fighting Style on. This is why I would probably choose Defensive, as a permanent +1AC would be handy all the time. (Though my DM may let me choose the Archery fighting style, but I won't plan for that.)

Eventually (probably at level 6, though maybe at 5 as there is another paladin in the group), I would multiclass into either Bard, Sorcerer or Fighter. Would mean I'd have to have 3 Str but my dice roll meant I can do that (even though I'd prefer to put those points into Wisdom really).

Fighter - Another fighting style, second wind, Action Surge

Bard - Spell slots, Jack of all Trades, and depends on how many levels I take. If I go for 3+ levels, college of swords flourishes would be amazing.

Sorcerer - Spell slots. Metamagic too, but mainly spell slots. ALSO gets the Shield spell though, which would be really good. 1 Level of Sorc might be worth it just for the Shield spell.


Most of this is pretty standard stuff really, I just wanted to run through the notion and see if it stuck (or if there's anything major I'm forgetting that means this just wont work). I know that I can't smite with crossbows, but having a consistent and decent ranged option seems like it would be good to soften up enemies. More of a strategist Paladin.

Edit - I realised that the Mobility feat may also be good. I don't plan to use 2-handed weapons so GWM and PAM aren't of much interest. Defensive Duellist might be good, but the Shield spell is much better. Cant think of anything else hugely useful I haven't mentioned. Lucky, I guess, but thats good for everyone!

[Arkhios]

Unless your DM handwaves Paladin's STR 13 requirement or let's you substitute DEX for STR when multiclassing, make sure you have at least STR 13 before you multiclass.

Because it's RAW.

That said, go for it. The build should work as well as any other. Of course, you won't be able to smite with crossbow (again, RAW, but if your DM is ridiculously lenient....).

[nirurin]

Unless your DM handwaves Paladin's STR 13 requirement or let's you substitute DEX for STR when multiclassing, make sure you have at least STR 13 before you multiclass.

Because it's RAW.

That said, go for it. The build should work as well as any other. Of course, you won't be able to smite with crossbow (again, RAW, but if your DM is ridiculously lenient....).


Yeh I did mention in the op that I wouldn’t be smiting with the crossbow,I have a rapier for that. Can’t smite all the time in a dungeon crawl, I save it for the big enemies or when an enemy needs to die fast to protect a party member.

Usually a paladin does little or no damage if enemies are out of range, this way I have options.

Though Improved Smite is a problem, as that is also only melee damage, and it’s a constant buff. But a lot of poeople seem to stop paladin at 6 so other classes must manage to give more than they lose.

I also mentioned the multi class stats issue, but I have enough to give me 13 str if needed. Prefer it in wisdom though.

[Arkhios]

Many people seem to forget simple spells like Divine Favor. Adds +1d4 radiant damage to your attacks and, IIRC – I'm AFB, works with both melee and ranged weapons, isn't consumed by first hit, and lasts 1 minute per casting (concentration required)

[nirurin]

Many people seem to forget simple spells like Divine Favor. Adds +1d4 radiant damage to your attacks and, IIRC – I'm AFB, works with both melee and ranged weapons, isn't consumed by first hit, and lasts 1 minute per casting (concentration required)

Magic or elemental weapon are also options, but divine favour would work on all atacks which is also good. I have it on my spell list. Hunters mark is also good and is on my list. Probably don’t need both though.

[Matrix_Walker]

Running with a Rapier + Hand Crossbow. (Drop rapier, reload, Pick up rapier = RAW way to use it, but DM is just going to skip that unless it matters in a particular situation eg. doing other actions in that turn).

You can draw a weapon as part of an attack, but readying it from the ground is another story.

[Chugger]

You can solve a lot of madness problems by a 1-dip into hexblade. Maybe you don't want to do that. Maybe you want to be so Dex-focused that a hex dip doesn't mean much to you. But a 1dip into hexblade solves a lot of pal problems and should always be kept in mind for its many uses (and if you don't want to do that, hey, you don't have to).

[Varlon]

You can draw a weapon as part of an attack, but readying it from the ground is another story.

Unless you're houseruling for "realism", it really isn't. If you pick up a weapon, you have it in your hand, and if you have it in your hand, you can attack with it.

[nirurin]

You can draw a weapon as part of an attack, but readying it from the ground is another story.

RAW (as well as sage advice and twitter replies from Devs) all day that this is basically the way they designed it to work with hand crossbows and crossbow mastery.

It's weird and clunky, but hey it works. And as it rules as a whole RAW, I feel justified in saying to my DM "Look, can we just ignore the whole 'weapon dropping' thing and just say I'm hanging the sword from my belt loop or something".


Does anyone have any thoughts on this build, about how to make the most of it maybe? Or Maybe multiclass ideas?

I'm thinking Rogue/Assassin would be appropriate and useful. and extra D6 sneak attack and advantage on the first round of combat would be useful with my high initiative.

[DivisibleByZero]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this build, about how to make the most of it maybe?

My thoughts are that it's unnecessary.
Rapier (1d8+d) + hand crossbow (1d4+d, range 30/120) + feat
vs
Scimitar/ShortSword (1d6+d) + daggers (1d4, range 20/60) + no feat needed, and you can draw it for free as a part of your normal attack action if you want to use it that round.

You lose a little range, and a tiny bit of damage (mod+1), but you don't need a feat and you have another opportunity to smite if you want it (which totally makes up for the mod+1 lost overall if you smite once in a while, and it's barely noticeable if you don't). Carry a shortbow for when real range is needed.

[nirurin]

My thoughts are that it's unnecessary.
Rapier (1d8+d) + hand crossbow (1d4+d, range 30/120) + feat
vs
Scimitar/ShortSword (1d6+d) + daggers (1d4, range 20/60) + no feat needed, and you can draw it for free as a part of your normal attack action if you want to use it that round.

You lose a little range, and a tiny bit of damage (mod+1), but you don't need a feat and you have another opportunity to smite if you want it (which totally makes up for the mod+1 lost overall if you smite once in a while, and it's barely noticeable if you don't). Carry a shortbow for when real range is needed.


Well... you're a little bit off on the details.

For one, Handbow is 1d6, not 1d4.

Secondly, if I got Scimitar + Dagger, I can only ever throw one dagger per turn at range, sometimes two if I already had my weapons in hand, due to the limit on object interactions. While you say you can "draw for free as part of the attack", you can only do that once and it uses your object interaction. So if you start with a dagger out, you can throw-draw-throw, but then you're left empty handed. Next turn you draw-throw but then can't draw again for your second throw.

With Crossbow I can fire 3 shots at range per turn, every turn. On turns when I want to swing my rapier in melee, I can still fire a shot with my bonus attack without disadvantage.

So the math for damage per round at range would actually be:
1d4 + Dex = ~6.5
OR sometimes 2d4 + (2xDEX) = ~13
vs
3d6+ (3xDEX) = ~22.5

In melee its much closer, but there's no real advantage to using a dagger. Also a single magic crossbow would give buffs to every shot, but for daggers you'd need 5+ magical daggers to have a chance of every throw being powered.

Basically, in order to approach the same damage with 2x melee weapons, I'd need to take the Duel Wield feat anyway. And that would be melee only, no range attacks at all.

[DivisibleByZero]

And if more than one ranged shot is needed, you have a shortbow.

Look, you asked for our thoughts.
I gave them. I feel it's unnecessary.

[nirurin]

And if more than one ranged shot is needed, you have a shortbow.

Look, you asked for our thoughts.
I gave them. I feel it's unnecessary.

Fair enough. Though I do tend to find on here that if someone wants to run a build that isn't 100% munchkin optimised, the reaction tends to be very much like yours.

Also you can't use the shortbow in melee, so you'd have to swap both weapons. Which takes two turns to do, unless you take the Duel Wield feat (which is a waste). so if you get attacked, the paladin would either have just a weapon and no shield, or a shield and no weapon, or just 1 weapon out of 2, for a whole turn.

[DivisibleByZero]

Fair enough. Though I do tend to find on here that if someone wants to run a build that isn't 100% munchkin optimised, the reaction tends to be very much like yours.

Also you can't use the shortbow in melee, so you'd have to swap both weapons. Which takes two turns to do, unless you take the Duel Wield feat (which is a waste). so if you get attacked, the paladin would either have just a weapon and no shield, or a shield and no weapon, or just 1 weapon out of 2, for a whole turn.

My suggested alternative of dual wielding Pally with no feat or style support was about as far from optimized as it gets. But I still think it's better than wasting a feat on ranged attacks for a Paladin. Too many of his features require melee to function to justify spending a feat that you can't use most of your features with.

[nirurin]

My suggested alternative of dual wielding Pally with no feat or style support was about as far from optimized as it gets. But I still think it's better than wasting a feat on ranged attacks for a Paladin. Too many of his features require melee to function to justify spending a feat that you can't use most of your features with.


True, there is the option of using a basic twf option with no feats, but that leaves a significant drop in damage at range (pretty much 75-100% less damage at range, depending on options), and even in melee its a noticeable difference.

Using a shortbow is an option though. It would be clunky but it would work.

[DivisibleByZero]

Using a shortbow is an option though. It would be clunky but it would work.

No more clunky than any other martial switching from melee to ranged, or vice verse.

[PeteNutButter]

So is there a reason you want to do this? I don't ask to be rude, but you clearly understand you're working at things that are a bit... scattered.

Anytime I find myself theorizing a character that i want to be something like a dex barbarian or a ranged paladin, I stop and ask, "would this be better as another class with the background and flavor of the original?"

So instead of playing a dex barb, I'd play a fighter that just gets mad, potentially even dip a level for the defense ability of rage.

Instead of playing a ranged paladin, I'd play a ranger or fighter that has heavy ties to a church or even an oath. It's all RP anyways.

What is is that you want out of the paladin? Do you like the burst of smite damage? Warlock can smite from both ranged and melee, and can have some spells that help you with the whole sneaky bit.

IMO the strength of the paladin is the ability to NOVA when needed. A PAM or TWF paladin can smite 3x a round against a big bad, to try and put it down fast. This build can only smite twice and make a crossbow attack.

The character will operate just fine, especially when starting with two 18s, but it suffers from lack of focus.

EDIT: Maybe try mapping your character out on a different class. Swashbuckler? Swords Bard? Warlock? Ranger? Fighter? They'd all do it better. The other paladin player might appreciate it anyways.

[nirurin]

So is there a reason you want to do this? I don't ask to be rude, but you clearly understand you're working at things that are a bit... scattered.

Anytime I find myself theorizing a character that i want to be something like a dex barbarian or a ranged paladin, I stop and ask, "would this be better as another class with the background and flavor of the original?"

So instead of playing a dex barb, I'd play a fighter that just gets mad, potentially even dip a level for the defense ability of rage.

Instead of playing a ranged paladin, I'd play a ranger or fighter that has heavy ties to a church or even an oath. It's all RP anyways.

What is is that you want out of the paladin? Do you like the burst of smite damage? Warlock can smite from both ranged and melee, and can have some spells that help you with the whole sneaky bit.

IMO the strength of the paladin is the ability to NOVA when needed. A PAM or TWF paladin can smite 3x a round against a big bad, to try and put it down fast. This build can only smite twice and make a crossbow attack.

The character will operate just fine, especially when starting with two 18s, but it suffers from lack of focus.

EDIT: Maybe try mapping your character out on a different class. Swashbuckler? Swords Bard? Warlock? Ranger? Fighter? They'd all do it better. The other paladin player might appreciate it anyways.



I'm limited to PHB classes only for this campaign. So no sword bard, no swashbuckler, no hexblade. Shame, i know.

I like paladin for the flexibility. They have a good repertoire of spells, they're tanky with and without the shield, and when needed they have the ability to burst damage with smites.

I don't like the idea of playing them the way I've seen them played (and how people on here seem to think they need to be played) which is basically "Run in, smite smite smite, move to next room". Because while this is awesome for maybe 2 or 3 enemies, after that you're just a guy with a sword for the rest of the day. I just don't see paladins as having anywhere near enough resources to be smite-bots.

Maybe I should just give up on the idea. There's not really a class like it in the PHB that I find. Eldritch Knight is vaguely similar, but with much less resources. Arcane Trickster is the same. The idea of a pure Fighter doesn't interest me, as in games with them they seem to mostly do the same thing every turn. The damage they do is stupidly high, but I think I'd just find it monotonous (personal opinion, not saying they're not good classes).

The party already has a bard, rogue, paladin and a ...druid, or ranger, I forget.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm limited to PHB classes only for this campaign. So no sword bard, no swashbuckler, no hexblade. Shame, i know.

I like paladin for the flexibility. They have a good repertoire of spells, they're tanky with and without the shield, and when needed they have the ability to burst damage with smites.

I don't like the idea of playing them the way I've seen them played (and how people on here seem to think they need to be played) which is basically "Run in, smite smite smite, move to next room". Because while this is awesome for maybe 2 or 3 enemies, after that you're just a guy with a sword for the rest of the day. I just don't see paladins as having anywhere near enough resources to be smite-bots.

Maybe I should just give up on the idea. There's not really a class like it in the PHB that I find. Eldritch Knight is vaguely similar, but with much less resources. Arcane Trickster is the same. The idea of a pure Fighter doesn't interest me, as in games with them they seem to mostly do the same thing every turn. The damage they do is stupidly high, but I think I'd just find it monotonous (personal opinion, not saying they're not good classes).

The party already has a bard, rogue, paladin and a ...druid, or ranger, I forget.

Yeah that's pretty much why paladin sorcerer was the bees knees, at least until the new book came out (and still may be). More slots = more paladining.

[MagneticKitty]

Maybe a dex based cleric? With like ellf for long bow proficiency.
Or reflavor warlock Eldritch blast + eldritch spear and agonizing blast as energy arrows.

[nirurin]

Yeah that's pretty much why paladin sorcerer was the bees knees, at least until the new book came out (and still may be). More slots = more paladining.


Maybe a dex based cleric? With like ellf for long bow proficiency.
Or reflavor warlock Eldritch blast + eldritch spear and agonizing blast as energy arrows.


Actually, I'm reading though an Eldritch Knight guide at the moment... I had dismissed it originally as I had heard it was the 'worst' of the Fighter subclasses, and with the lack of spell slots I thought it would just be 99% fighter with an occasional underpowered spell... but it does seem to tick a few of the right boxes.

Can be Dex build. Can be arrow/crossbow focused. Can even get Find Familiar which is a spell I can never seem to fit onto a character.

Alternatively, I could go Warlock - Blade Pact - Fiend. But the problem with blade pact warlock is... whatever you do, however you build it, Eldritch Blast is always the best option.

I may try and build an Eldritch Knight and see what options I end up getting. Any suggestions? Or am I likely to still find it repetitive? Being stuck with 3 spell slots per day until level 7 is pretty awful.

[Tikkun]

I have a tendency to suggest avoiding ranged with a paladin. It is a class that screams front line fighter.

My suggestion if you want to maximize ranged damage would be a fighter to at least level 11. That is 3 attacks. A Paladin can only get 2 attacks unless they multi-class to fighter (using only PHB so the new Ranger archetypes are out). Fighters get a boatload of ASI's. A DEX fighter with Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter feats wielding just a single hand crossbow with these two is a force to be reckoned with especially if you take the Archery fighting style. At level 11 that is 6 attacks--original attack plus bonus due to crossbow expert. Take the battlemaster archetype and you can pretty well control the battlefield.

If your heart is set on smiting then either a 2 hander or sword and board to levels 6, 8 or 12 is called for with the rest going to Draconic Sorcerer to provide slots for upcast smiting and flinging the occasional firebolt cantrip at range (Draconic gives you a +1 to con on leveling and extra fire damage).

[nirurin]

I have a tendency to suggest avoiding ranged with a paladin. It is a class that screams front line fighter.

My suggestion if you want to maximize ranged damage would be a fighter to at least level 11. That is 3 attacks. A Paladin can only get 2 attacks unless they multi-class to fighter (using only PHB so the new Ranger archetypes are out). Fighters get a boatload of ASI's. A DEX fighter with Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter feats wielding just a single hand crossbow with these two is a force to be reckoned with especially if you take the Archery fighting style. At level 11 that is 6 attacks--original attack plus bonus due to crossbow expert. Take the battlemaster archetype and you can pretty well control the battlefield.

If your heart is set on smiting then either a 2 hander or sword and board to levels 6, 8 or 12 is called for with the rest going to Draconic Sorcerer to provide slots for upcast smiting and flinging the occasional firebolt cantrip at range (Draconic gives you a +1 to con on leveling and extra fire damage).


Smiting was more of a side benefit, I just didn't want to be stuck swinging a sword in a repetitive fashion for the whole campaign (which looks like it will be my first proper campaign with both dungeon crawling and town/roleplay elements, so I wanted a character with a bit of everything). A fighter in towns (in my limited experience) seems to generally be poor due to the low charisma.

However the Eldritch Knight has interested me, as I will gradually get to gain at least a few spell slots to play with. And as he is Intelligent instead of charismatic, I'd get to play the more intellectual role. It might actually work. I'll have to look into it tonight.

[The_Jette]

Having played an Eldritch Knight, I never had any trouble with it, or noticed that it was underpowered. I also had two 18's and put one in Strength, and the other in Intelligence. I played a Half-Orc just for the irony of the situation. My charisma was high enough that I didn't have difficulty getting along with people in town. And, the novelty of an intelligent half-orc helped in most situations. Honestly, if you have the stats, go for it. You don't even really need a particularly high Intelligence if you pick the right spells.

[PeteNutButter]

EK is still mostly fighter, but that isn't a bad thing. Fighter is a great base class, but you won't spend many rounds casting.

If you want a lot of options you need to be a real gish which requires MCing. Fighter 1/Abjurer x is a good one. Of course Paladin/sorcerer and fighter 1/warlock x are also good. All PHB and all work quite well.

[Arkhios]

While far from optimized, you could combine Eldritch Knight and Paladin. Depending on what kind of spells you prefer to use, you could focus on charisma or intelligence (after dexterity of course).

Since this multiclass would already be a bit wonky, I'd say minimize the MADness by sticking to DEX>CHA; + STR (13) for MC requirement. As EK, pick spells that don't require INT to be effective.

Split EK 11/Paladin 9, would net you 3rd level spells from paladin (revivify, haste, elemental weapon, aura of vitality, crusader's mantle, etc.) many of which are unique to paladin, and 2nd level spells from wizard, plus eventually up to 4th level spell slots from a total spellcasting level of 7 (still, enough for the occasional smites being as good as they can get without Improved Divine Smite). You'd basically trade off spellcasting power for more attacks (3 attacks with Fighter's extra attack), which isn't that bad tbh.

Of course, if you don't mind losing those 3rd level paladin spells, EK 12/Paladin 8 is a solid option with better optimized spell slot synergy (total spellcasting level 8; still only 4th level slots, but at least there wouldn't be "dead" levels).

Or, as you initially said, leaving paladin after 6th level, with EK 14 you would end up enjoying 3rd level wizard spells, but you'd want higher intelligence if you want the blasty ones (though, you could just craft or maybe buy Headband of Intellect (INT 19 is quite enough imho). You'd again reach only up to 4th level spell slots with a total spellcasting level 7)

[Snowbluff]

Maybe a dex based cleric? With like ellf for long bow proficiency.
Or reflavor warlock Eldritch blast + eldritch spear and agonizing blast as energy arrows.

Gloom Ranger5/Cleric15
or for eldritch blast

Eldritch Knight7/Warlock 13 (action EB, then bonus action an arrow)

Magical Archery with smite
Whisper Bard 10
Take Swift Quiver, so you can shoot twice as a bonus action, with magical secret. Use this with psychic blades for some damage. Maybe dip fighter for Action Surge, Archery Style, and pick up sharpshoot. Use a blasting spell for your standard action.