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Lord_Kimboat
2007-08-21, 01:35 AM
Hi all

I started wracking my brain over this question and then thought, 'hey, there are a bunch of people who love doing this sort of stuff.' After all, when I see things like this for the type of characters I normally play, I love to put my 2c in.

So, I'm starting a 1st level bard, I'm thinking Human and it's 28 pt. buy. I haven't really developed much of a concept beyond that and I was wondering what direction I should point him in. I'm told the campaign will run up to about 12th level and that it's a war scenario.

Darrin
2007-08-21, 08:23 AM
So, I'm starting a 1st level bard, I'm thinking Human and it's 28 pt. buy. I haven't really developed much of a concept beyond that and I was wondering what direction I should point him in. I'm told the campaign will run up to about 12th level and that it's a war scenario.

The most popular bard PrC is Sublime Chord, which gives a bard access to 9th level Sorcerer spells. It appears in a lot of optimized builds because it allows you to multiclass into some non-spellcasting classes early on but still gives you access to higher-level spells later. The skill point requirements are quite steep however, which generally turns what would usually be a good skillmonkey into something that has an amazing Listen roll but not much else that's terribly useful. Since you can't get into Sublime Chord until level 11, and you're only going to 12, it's not much use here, unless you're going for hypothetical bragging rights.

There are a few bard PrCs that are much easier to get into, around level 6. Two of my favorites are Green Whisperer and Battle Howler of Grummsh, both from Dragon #311. The first is a druid/bard hybrid, which suffers some of the drawbacks of a Mystic Theurge build, but if you use it to get into Arcane Heirophant, it starts to get very interesting. Wild Shape kicks in around level 9, and if you dip into Sublime Chord at 11, you can finish off with 9th level arcane and 9th level druid spells.

Battle Howler of Grummsh is a gish-builder PrC for half-orcs, which isn't all that optimal with a -2 Cha, but you can offset that by adding the Magic-Blooded racial template from Dragon #306 (+2 Cha, -2 Wis, LA +0). Battle Howler has five full caster levels, full BAB, barbarian rage, and fairly easy entry requirements (so long as you were going to take Power Attack and Cleave anyway). It leads very nicely into Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight/Knight Phantom. Add Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper, and you've got a fairly strong THF gish, good utility/buff spells, and can heal in a pinch (Wand of CLW).

If you have access to it, Jade Phoenix Mage from Tome of Battle can be a lot of fun for a Bard 4/Crusader 2 gish. Desert Wind maneuvers add fire-based blasting, and Divine Spirit maneuvers allow you to attack and heal with the same action.

If you're looking for more of a blaster-type bard (hey, some folks like all sorts of crazy), then Lyric Thaumaturge (Complete Mage) is probably the way to go. You can add Sor/Wiz spells, and you get damage buffs on spells that do sonic damage.

Droodle
2007-08-21, 08:30 AM
Given how many levels this is going to go, I'd think your best PrC bets are going to be the Lyric Thaumaturge, Seeker of the Song, or if you want a killer diplomancer, the World Speaker. While we're at it, you ought to take a look at the Savage Bard variant in the SRD. They get good fort instead of reflex saves and summon natural ally instead of summon monster. Since I imagine you'll be seeing a lot of combat, a good fortitude save is worth the minor tradeoff.

Shatenjager
2007-08-21, 09:43 AM
I know this isn't what you asked, but if you were a changeling from Ebberon, one of my favorite builds to 16 is Bard 6/Cabinet Trickster (5)/Mindspy (5).

Cabinet Trickster (RoE) lets you read minds and get doppleganger traits. Mindspy (CW) lets you take advantage of information you get from reading minds.

The Prince of Cats
2007-08-21, 09:54 AM
Not helpful, I am sure, but I rarely even think of PrC considerations right out of the gate. To be fair, I have never taken a PrC in my gaming career. I made great use of kits in 2e, but the 3.x PrC system leaves me cold.

Why do you want to take a prestige class? Maybe thyat would help us tell you what to take.

Telonius
2007-08-21, 09:56 AM
Okay, "war scenario." Sounds like you want to go light on the Diplomacy angle...?

RTGoodman
2007-08-21, 10:02 AM
Well, if it's a war-based campaign, look at the War Chanter from Complete Warrior. I've not heard of any people using it, but it lets you use music to inspire all sorts of battle-related things. The capstone ability lets a party share the Base Attack Bonus of whoever has the highest BAB.

UglyPanda
2007-08-21, 10:07 AM
If you're actually going into battle alongside a bunch of weak NPC soldiers, then War Chanter from Complete Warrior is very useful at high levels. If not, then I'd recommend Sublime Chord with a two-level dip in Seeker of The Song.

Person_Man
2007-08-21, 10:25 AM
War Weaver from Heroes of Battle. With certain spells, when you cast them they effect everyone in the party. So you cast Haste on yourself, and it effects everyone. It requires arcane spells to gain access to the PrC, so its perfect for a Bard, which has arcane spells but also healing magic (you case Cure Light Wounds on yourself, it effects everyone). Also fits perfectly into the war scenario, since the PrC and Heroes of Battle is all about war.

War Chanter is a bad idea unless you or someone in your party is using a King of Smack or battlefield control build. Their primary ability until ECL 15 is Inspire Recklessness, which allows anyone within 60 feet to trade AC for a bonus To-Hit. This is hugely useful, but it also leads to a lot of quick and unintended deaths unless you build your PCs around the ability.

Sublime Chord and is popular and puts a Bard on par with a Sorcerer, although the real power of the PrC doesn't kick in until later levels, so it may not be a good choice for you.

Stormcaller from Frostburn has the ability to burn bardic music uses to cast Lightning Bolt and similar effects. The damage is equal to your Perform check. If you're in a battlefield situation, you can have everyone sing along with you. ("Can you hear the people sing, singing the song of angry men. It is the music of a people who will not be slaves again...") Each ally can attempt to Aid Another (DC 10). Each person that succeeds gives you a +2 to your Skill check, and these bonuses explicitly stack. So 100+ damage Lightning Bolts at ECL 9ish are pretty easy to pull off, assuming you have enough allies/townsfolk/summoned minions/animated objects/etc. Also known as the Nanobots build.

Benejeseret
2007-08-21, 11:49 AM
Well in NWN2 (ya, ya, classes are very different but none the less) my character I loved the most was a:

Bard/Palemaster

My inspiration was Army of Darkness with the skeletal flutists and the song "Night on Disco Mountain" from Saturday Night Fever - play it and you'll recognize it from a creepy disney scene. The actual song in Fantasia is the classical Night on Bald Mountain, Stokowski arrangement, but the disco version is soooo much more evil bard like.

Basically a bards get better the more people/minions he can influence...so why not raise some of your own? In NWN2 I beat the game with this guy (which likely does not say much for the game) and really enjoyed it. I have always wanted to play him in PnP so I can really use all the undead associated feats like Undead Leadership (the perfect feat for any necro-bard).

Night on Disco Mountain, play it, love it, build an undead army around it.

ocato
2007-08-21, 01:06 PM
Well, you do not necessarily need a PrC as a bard. For a war campaign, I'd consider one of the battle bard types. Use a longsword, use spell compendium spells like sonic weapon and the one where you throw your sword... I can't remember the name... There's an arcane something spell where you turn a spell into a bonus to attack and damage... gosh. I'm sorry, its been far too long since I've made a bard. I'll do my homework and return.


EDIT:

For a martial bard, I really like to mix magic with mayhem. Remember the Laws of the Battle Bard.
1. Do not forsake buffs, they affect you as well.
2. Do not forsake CC, a laughing enemy is easier to slay than a fighting one.

There are more Laws of the Battle Bard.
Feats I like for Battle Bards
Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) Use a Bardic Music to add Cha to attack with slashing weapon
Power Attack (PHB) Just hear me out...
Song of the Heart (Ebberon) +1 to ALL bardic variables. Inspire Courage, Fascinate/Suggestion DCs, like, everything.
Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer) Songs last 10 rounds after being sung
Arcane Strike (uh... Complete Arcane? I don't remember) This one is foggy in my head, but you pretty much sacrifice a spell and add X to your next attack roll and Xd4 to your next damage roll where X was the spell's level.
Extra Music (complete Adventurer) 4 more songs per day

Do you have the Magic Item Compendium? Get the Crystal Echoblade
Crystal Echoblade
Price (Item Level)" 4,310 gp (9th)
Body Slot: - (held)
Caster Level: 10th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) evocation
Activation: -
Weight: 4 lb.

A crystal echoblade normally functions as a +1 longsword, but is enhanced by your musical ability. If you use your bardic music ability while wielding the weapon, the blade resonates in harmony, dealing additional sonic damage on each attack equal to half your bard level.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Bardic Music
Cost to Create: 2,000 go (plus 310 gp for masterwork longsword), 160 XP, 4 days.
You can buff it to more than a +1, but since it's a longsword, it works with Snowflake Wardance.

For Poops and giggles, let's say you're a L12 Human Bard. You have the following feats
1. Snowflake Wardance (I can't remember if there are prereqs, if so, switch this with #9)
1. Power attack
3. Song of the Heart
6. Lingering Song
9. Extra Music
12. Arcane Strike

Str 20 and Cha 20 (not hard for a strength and Charisma focused Bard, remember that this is a slasher, not a skill monkey, so instead of CHA, DEX, then INT, it's more CHA, STR, CON)

Inspirational Boost (+1 to Inspire Courage, L1 spell in the Spell Compendium) on your Inspire Courage makes it a +4 to attack and damage (2 base +1 inspirational boost +1 SotH)
Haste (+1 bonus to attacks, 1 extra attack at your highest BaB)
Use Snowflake Wardance and Arcane Strike one of your L4 spells. This is assuming a +1 Echoblade, a +2 or 3 wouldn't be hard to get.

Full Attack
BaB +9/+4 so

Attack 1. 9+5(str)+5(cha)+4(Insp.Cour)+1(Haste)+4(Arcane Strike)+1 (sword)= +29. Power Attack 9 of that off, so you're swinging with +20.
Two hands on that sword mister!
Damage 1. 1d8+ 18(power attack)+4 (insp cour)+4d4(Arcane Strike)+1 (sword) +6(sonic from sword)= Average at about ~41ish?
Haste! Attack again at that bonus sucka!
Attack 3. 4+5(STR)+5(CHA)+4(Insp. Cour)+1(haste)+4(arcane strike)+1 (sword)=+24.
Power Attack 4 of that off, you're swinging at a +20.
Damage 1d8+ 8(power attack)+4(insp cour) +4d4 (Arcane strike)+1(sword)+6(sonic from sword)= ~31.

So that's about 100 damage if they all hit. Rough estimate. This is a "let me pull out the biggest bard slap I can" average damage will be a bit lower. At L15 grab Lyric Spell if you are having problems with losing spells, you can give up your Music chances for more spells (1+spell level songs gets a spell back) so you can save an ace up your sleeve.

Lord_Kimboat
2007-08-21, 11:01 PM
Wow, thanks for all the great feedback. The reason I wanted a prestige class was because I really didn't have a direction to go with my bard. I've never played a bard before but thought I would give it a try since, the only other player capable of leading the party is playing a Dwaren ranger and thus will have a sucky cha and the class I normally play, cleric, is already covered.

I was hoping that by aiming for a prestige class, it would give me an idea of how to play my character and let me know what skills/feats to take.

However, and you're probably going to hate this, it did help me. Spending a few hours staring at the prestige class SRD from Candlekeep made me realize . . . I just really don't like bards. All the singing and dancing just seems lame no matter which way I try to spin it.

Anyway, I've decided on a Marshal. Thanks once again for all the good ideas and sorry that I then went and changed my mind. If anyone wants to give me some tips on playing a Marshal, please feel free.

Hectonkhyres
2007-08-22, 01:49 AM
I too am trying to figure out a good way to shape a bard into something playable... at least for theme. I'm hoping to make myself a veritable Pied Piper of Hamelin, strong with the summoning (particularly swarms) and mind effecting magics and wit... but with his conventional fighting abilities nerfed down to a bare minimum. Scariest fellow with a fiddle ever.

I may end up totally homebrewing the bastard, remixing his spell lists and everything. But thats another story.

In any case, I feel your pain.