I need a good houserule nerf for black tentacles

[King of Nowhere]

It is important to start with the premise that my game isn't at particularly high optimization level (you could say according to this thread discussing tiers of optimizers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542125-I-give-you-TIERS-OF-THE-OPTIMIZER!) that we are playing at high level 5 or maybe low level 4; basically we know that a wizard should max INT and start a fight with buffs on, or that a melee needs to protect himself against enchantments to avoid being a glass cannon, or stuff of that level of complexity).
We just recently discovered how powerful black tentacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm)is. At the level of optimization we're playing, a grapple check of 8+level is unbeatable for everyone who is not a melee, and can be fairly difficult for the melee too. I understand that more skilled players will know ways to play around that, or will just have other, equally big guns with which to answer, but that's not the case at my table. That spell completely immobilized the party with the sole exception of the barbarian, and I had to dumb down the strategy of the npc to avoid accidentally killing half the party (as in, focusing on said barbarian who is way above the WBL guideline and has devoted most of his money to protect himself against magic attacks, rather than fly out of his reach - the barbarian relied on his dragon companion to fly, but said dragon was grappled - and cast a few empowered fireballs in the middle of the tentacles).
And now that we saw how effective the spell is, the players will want to start using it all the time, which would lead to either an instawin in most encounters, or me designing opponents specifically to resist that spell (incidentally, they all bought rings of freedom of movements after the fight, but I can't give one of those to every single opponent). Again, more skilled players may be able to handle it, but as it is, we risk black tentacles to kill our game by becoming the only spell anyone will use.

If I was just starting this campaign, I'd just ban the spell, but since it has already been used, I need to nerf it to bring it back to a manageable level. I was thinking along a couple of options:
1) make its grapple bonus scale with 3/4 of the caster level instead of the full caster level. That would make it a bit more manageable for clerics and druids. except not that much, clerics don't have +8 STR. it would still be unbearable for wizards and sorcerors too.
2) change it to 4+caster level or 0+caster level. That way it would be effective against a rival caster but not against a melee. And by the time the caster level would really start to add up, then everyone will likely have access to freedom of movement

unfortunately there is such a huge gap between grapple checks of various classes that I can't make the spell survivable by a wizard without making it useless against a melee. Any further advice would be welcome.

Incidentally, a couple of grapple/related questions:
1) can a druid go into wild shape while grappled?
2) is freeing oneself from grapple a standard action?

[Pleh]

Swarms are immune to grappling effects.

Many monsters can turn Gaseous or Incorporeal/Ethereal.

You don't really need to nerf Tentacles. Just remember that it's a very powerful effect that depends on being able to grapple things. Not everything can actually be grappled.

[Venger]

no matter how terrible your party is at D&D, there's no need to nerf evard's black tentacles

1) no (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) it's not on the list, so no, you can't
2) using escape artist to escape is a standard

[TotallyNotEvil]

If you change it that even wizards and sorcerers can escape without a problem, what's the point of the spell?

There are plenty of ways to avoid it:
- Gaseous Form
- Ethereaness
- Teleportation
- Freedom of Movement
- Dispel Magic
- Flight

And on and on. Try casting that against any remotely melee-savvy monster above level 9-10 or so and see as they laught it out.

[Necroticplague]

unfortunately there is such a huge gap between grapple checks of various classes that I can't make the spell survivable by a wizard without making it useless against a melee. Any further advice would be welcome.
You could implement more characters with get-out-of-jail-free cards, like non-spell teleports. That way, the spell still serves the purpose of making the enemy waste actions using their card, while not turning it into a turkey shoot. And some items that act as these kinds of cards can be pretty cheap, so it's not likely to break WBL if you sprinkle them into the treasure instead of a potion or two.

Examples would be the Reserve feat that gives a small teleport, or Anklets of Translocation.



Incidentally, a couple of grapple/related questions:
1) can a druid go into wild shape while grappled?
2) is freeing oneself from grapple a standard action?
1: yes. While grappling, you can still perform any actions not specifically restricted (spellcasting) or disallowed (moving normally). So you can still Wildshape as normal, among other things.
2:What action it is depends on how you try and escape.

Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
......
You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).
So, if you attempt to grapple your way out, it's a standard action Attack action to make one, or a full-round Full Attack action to make as many as your BaB allows for. If you're attempting to use Escape Artist to wriggle out, it's a standard action.

[lord_khaine]

And now that we saw how effective the spell is, the players will want to start using it all the time, which would lead to either an instawin in most encounters, or me designing opponents specifically to resist that spell (incidentally, they all bought rings of freedom of movements after the fight, but I can't give one of those to every single opponent). Again, more skilled players may be able to handle it, but as it is, we risk black tentacles to kill our game by becoming the only spell anyone will use.

I do agree with you on this, even skilled players can at time have trouble handling Black Tentacles when not playing a Tier 1 or 2 Class. Because honestly there is not a lot of defences for humanoid opponents. If they dont massively outpower the party then even the full BAB classes can have issues beating the check, often wasting several rounds before they manages to break away. And yes, i have seen several encounters ended before they had begun by a good roll on initiative followed by a no-safe-you-lose spell.

At the same time though, what level are you playing at? Rings of Freedom of Movement are absurdly expensive, at the level where they become viable there though be a lot of other gamebreaking spells available.

But back to your question. Personally i have changed Black tentacles to having the same size bonus as whatever they try to grapple, up to +4 for large or above. Following the reasoning that there are room for less tentacles on a smaller target.

It makes life a little easier for medium and full BAB classes, while prime spellcasters usually have things like dimension door to safe their ass.

[King of Nowhere]

You could implement more characters with get-out-of-jail-free cards, like non-spell teleports. That way, the spell still serves the purpose of making the enemy waste actions using their card, while not turning it into a turkey shoot. And some items that act as these kinds of cards can be pretty cheap, so it's not likely to break WBL if you sprinkle them into the treasure instead of a potion or two.

Examples would be the Reserve feat that gives a small teleport, or Anklets of Translocation.



i homebrewed in tattoos with activated spells. Most people in the violence business have one with teleport as a safety net, but you can't use them while grappled (maybe you can and I misinterpreted the rules, but if that is so, I'll stay consistent). For those with a bit more money and paranoia, a tattoo of still silent teleport is better, and it costs about 3000 gp. I run a high-magic, high-money world where mostly everyone is well above WBL, so those money are not much. All the party also got one of those, and any boss enemy is also going to have one of those. So implementing characters with get-out-of-jail cards is not a big problem.
I don't like much the idea that you MUST have this trinket spell just to protect you from this specific effect, though. I don't like the idea that a specific spell cannot be resisted without a specific item and the potential for it to escalate. But I have to admit it is probably better than nerfing a spell because it's above the power level of the table (which also has the potential to escalate).
It also means I should have oprobably been harder on the party, as they were given the chance to retreat via teleport before the fight began, but they choose to stay.

EDIT:



But back to your question. Personally i have changed Black tentacles to having the same size bonus as whatever they try to grapple, up to +4 for large or above. Following the reasoning that there are room for less tentacles on a smaller target.

It makes life a little easier for medium and full BAB classes, while prime spellcasters usually have things like dimension door to safe their ass.
That's actually a good idea. It's not even really a nerf, because the spell becomes much more viable against bigger foes. I'm probably going for this.

The party is currently level 12, and well stocked with teleports and dispels and stuff, (including a staff of spell storing with disjunction in it) but they had nothing that worked while grappled. The enemy was a level 16 wizard without equipment (he was robbed and killed by the party a few weeks earlier in an ambush; the staff belonged to him. His allies rezzed him, but they didn't gift him a new gear. He compensated by having 30+ buff spells on him when he ambushed the party. The party won the fight when they managed to free the cleric and hand him said staff, which dispelled all the buffs. the wizard then quickened dimension door'ed to safety; good for him that all the members of the party who could have cast dimensional anchor had been blinded by a sunburst).

[Kayden Prynn]

they had nothing that worked while grappled

It's entirely possible that they consistently failed the concentration checks to cast their spells, but you make it sound like they couldn't cast them at all, which isn't the case. Unless you're using a houserule, casting a spell while grappled is a DC 20+spell level concentration check.

[King of Nowhere]

It's entirely possible that they consistently failed the concentration checks to cast their spells, but you make it sound like they couldn't cast them at all, which isn't the case. Unless you're using a houserule, casting a spell while grappled is a DC 20+spell level concentration check.

But if the spell has a somatic component, then it cannot be cast at all. None of them had still spells prepared.

[Kayden Prynn]

But if the spell has a somatic component, then it cannot be cast at all. None of them had still spells prepared.
Right. Nevermind what I said. I always forget that one.

[noob]

The best houserule for nerfing black tentacles I know is removing grappling from the game.
Yes the whole mechanic and not just removing grappling from the spell.

[Venger]

The best houserule for nerfing black tentacles I know is removing grappling from the game.
Yes the whole mechanic and not just removing grappling from the spell.

how does that work?

[noob]

Simply make that everything that did trigger a grapple no longer does and remove the possibility to attempt a grapple.

[Zanos]

Black tentacles is good against humanoids but tends to be bad against monsters, which tend to have pretty high strength scores and be of larger sizes. It might be OP if your campaign is very humanoid heavy, but strength focused characters should be fine, and dex characters can roll escape artist to get out of the grapple. Anyone can use a magic item, like an anklet of translocation, to get out of the grapple.

The suggestion that a grappling spell needs to be nerfed to make it manageable for clerics and druids is pretty funny to me, though.

[King of Nowhere]

The suggestion that a grappling spell needs to be nerfed to make it manageable for clerics and druids is pretty funny to me, though.

what's so strange? while grappled, the druid could not go into wild shape or cast spells. The cleric could not cast spells. Yes, they are powerful classes, but only in the hands of good players who know how to prepare. If caught without preparation and put in a situation where they cannot use their magic, they are helpless. Surely you guys should still remember being green enough to be caught by surprise with a tier 1 class.
It's no chance that the barbarian player, who is the only one with a passable level of skill, regularly outperforms a party with three tier 1 classes. He'd outperform them even more if he wasn't dropping strategic hints to them all the time. they are the kind of casual players who aren't really interested in learning strategies. they just ask him "tell me which spells I should prepare"

[Deadline]

That's actually a good idea. It's not even really a nerf, because the spell becomes much more viable against bigger foes. I'm probably going for this.

Black Tentacles (with the 8+CL grapple check) was already bad at grappling large or larger brutes. This change will make the spell worse at that. Look at the average grapple checks of CR 12-16 monsters in the MM. Particularly the brutes, who are going to be a full 10-20 points higher than the Tentacles (the Brutes are all going to be in the 25-40 range for grapple checks - more than enough to do well against the wizard's 20).


The party is currently level 12, and well stocked with teleports and dispels and stuff, (including a staff of spell storing with disjunction in it) but they had nothing that worked while grappled.

You are going to see this problem more and more the higher you go in levels. There are tons of spells that easily end an encounter (possibly badly for the PCs) if they aren't prepared with a defense against it. You either start learning those defenses, or you get killed because you don't have them. Sure, you could nerf each spell, but you are going to find yourself nerfing more and more of them as you go up levels. Most of the 6th-9th levels spells are going to be real problems for your group. The only real way to avoid this is to play clerics and druids strictly as healbots, and wizards and sorcerers strictly as blasters. Then you only have to concern yourself with the hit point game, and not the various spells that require you to hard counter, or get killed. Given your stated level of table optimization, this may be the way to go. That, or explain to folks how higher level play works, and get them started on learning the various "win" buttons and their counters. Out of curiosity, have you had them come across any of the save or die spells yet? If not, you may want to scrap those entirely as well.

[exelsisxax]

what's so strange? while grappled, the druid could not go into wild shape or cast spells. The cleric could not cast spells. Yes, they are powerful classes, but only in the hands of good players who know how to prepare. If caught without preparation and put in a situation where they cannot use their magic, they are helpless. Surely you guys should still remember being green enough to be caught by surprise with a tier 1 class.
It's no chance that the barbarian player, who is the only one with a passable level of skill, regularly outperforms a party with three tier 1 classes. He'd outperform them even more if he wasn't dropping strategic hints to them all the time. they are the kind of casual players who aren't really interested in learning strategies. they just ask him "tell me which spells I should prepare"

Why did he believe this was the case? I get not preparing still spells, the druid has no excuse for remaining grappled.

[lord_khaine]

That's actually a good idea. It's not even really a nerf, because the spell becomes much more viable against bigger foes. I'm probably going for this.

The party is currently level 12, and well stocked with teleports and dispels and stuff, (including a staff of spell storing with disjunction in it) but they had nothing that worked while grappled. The enemy was a level 16 wizard without equipment (he was robbed and killed by the party a few weeks earlier in an ambush; the staff belonged to him. His allies rezzed him, but they didn't gift him a new gear. He compensated by having 30+ buff spells on him when he ambushed the party. The party won the fight when they managed to free the cleric and hand him said staff, which dispelled all the buffs. the wizard then quickened dimension door'ed to safety; good for him that all the members of the party who could have cast dimensional anchor had been blinded by a sunburst).

Well the idea was that it should be a nerf, and the bonus should not scale past the +4 bonus it currently gets for counting as large.

I do think part of the problem you have lies in your party seemingly being far above WBL. A ring of freedom should not be an option for a level 12 party, it cost almost ½ of their assumed wealth. (40k out of 88k)


Black tentacles is good against humanoids but tends to be bad against monsters, which tend to have pretty high strength scores and be of larger sizes. It might be OP if your campaign is very humanoid heavy, but strength focused characters should be fine, and dex characters can roll escape artist to get out of the grapple. Anyone can use a magic item, like an anklet of translocation, to get out of the grapple.

I would not call strenght focused characters fine, they still need an impressive 26 str, and no medium bab levels to even break even with the tentacles. Escape artist is of course a viable option, but it requires a full investment in the skill, and that it is a class skill.

[Zanos]

I would not call strenght focused characters fine, they still need an impressive 26 str, and no medium bab levels to even break even with the tentacles. Escape artist is of course a viable option, but it requires a full investment in the skill, and that it is a class skill.
Strength is generally the easiest attribute in the game to boost.

[King of Nowhere]

Black Tentacles (with the 8+CL grapple check) was already bad at grappling large or larger brutes. This change will make the spell worse at that. Look at the average grapple checks of CR 12-16 monsters in the MM. Particularly the brutes, who are going to be a full 10-20 points higher than the Tentacles (the Brutes are all going to be in the 25-40 range for grapple checks - more than enough to do well against the wizard's 20).


as I said, the plot-relevant fights are (almost) all against humanoids.



You are going to see this problem more and more the higher you go in levels. There are tons of spells that easily end an encounter (possibly badly for the PCs) if they aren't prepared with a defense against it. You either start learning those defenses, or you get killed because you don't have them. Sure, you could nerf each spell, but you are going to find yourself nerfing more and more of them as you go up levels. Most of the 6th-9th levels spells are going to be real problems for your group. The only real way to avoid this is to play clerics and druids strictly as healbots, and wizards and sorcerers strictly as blasters. Then you only have to concern yourself with the hit point game, and not the various spells that require you to hard counter, or get killed. Given your stated level of table optimization, this may be the way to go. That, or explain to folks how higher level play works, and get them started on learning the various "win" buttons and their counters. Out of curiosity, have you had them come across any of the save or die spells yet? If not, you may want to scrap those entirely as well.

I am nowhere near that bad. And save or die spells are manageable; just get a good enough saving throw. The most powerful casters reach around 40 in their casting stats, meaning saving throws DC up to 35 (I'm sure there are ways to get them higher, but that's what flies at my table). Most of the party already has +15 to +20 to their saving throws, they are fine most of the times. The reason balck tentacles is a problem is that it requires grapple. You can protect yourself from save or die by buffing saving throws, and there are tons of items for it. I know of no item to buff grappple, and even if one existed, getting it just to defend against a single spell seems a waste.

Anyway, that wizard used a fair share of higher level spells, including save or die, and not one of them was nowhere near as devastating as that single 4th level spell. THat's where I realized I had a problem with the spell.


Why did he believe this was the case? I get not preparing still spells, the druid has no excuse for remaining grappled.

I asked if a druid can go in wild shape while grappled. One guy said yes, another said no. nowhere does it state if using wild shape has a somatic component (technically that stuff should apply to spell-like abilities, but it makes sense to subject supernatural abilities while grappling to the same limitation).
Anyway, the best option I know for a 12th level druid is a dire bear, which has +23 to grapple, still 1 shy of the tentacles in question.


Well the idea was that it should be a nerf, and the bonus should not scale past the +4 bonus it currently gets for counting as large.

I do think part of the problem you have lies in your party seemingly being far above WBL. A ring of freedom should not be an option for a level 12 party, it cost almost ½ of their assumed wealth. (40k out of 88k)


Larger creatures have also STR bonuses to help them. I have no problems with black tentacles having a passable chance to hold a dragon on a lucky roll.

As for the WBL, I don't see why that may be a problem. It started mostly by accident when I gifted a few overpowered items to each player as birthday presents, but it is now an established part of the world. This world is well organized. A lot of menial work is done by undead or golems. people with the potential to learn spellcasting are given grants to study to make certain their talent doesn't go wasted. Nations fund universities and promote a widespread access to arcane science. It makes a lot of sense that in this world there are more magic items than in most other settings, at least in the rich nations.
Mechanic-wise, tier 1 casters are less dependent upon loot to be effective, because they can replicate most of it with buff spells. Mundanes need magic items to compensate their lack of magic, so they get more benefits. I find that letting people stay well above their WBL helps to reduce tier inbalance. I am playing in another campaign with normal WBL and the wizard is solving half the fights alone with aoe save or lose. In my world every serious opponent has money to buy buffs to their saving throws, so those kind of strategies are much less powerful. Incidentally, after the party defeats them, they loot their items and they go even more above the WBL, and so to challenge them I need to send opponents even better stocked (I could make the opponents higher level, but it wouldn't make sense in-world that those guys would be so high level without an appropriate equipment), whicch leads to them being defeated and looted... so there is a wealth escalation. Even when they need to resurrect half a party after a fight, they still turn a huge profit. I'm going to put that under control when they get high level enough to use disjunction against them.
Yes, I know, wizards are still extremely powerful and a well-used one can still do pretty much everything. but giving more loot certainly doesn't hurt.

[Lapak]

The simplest house-rules nerf to the Tentacles is to remove the line stating that they are immune to ALL damage. Keep them immune to everything but, say, slashing damage and let them be sundered like giant squid tentacles. The spell goes from a no-save-just-lose to an action-economy penalty, adjust to taste by ruling how many tentacles are involved in grappling someone (1 and 1d4+1 are probably the two likely options.)

[Deadline]

I am nowhere near that bad. And save or die spells are manageable; just get a good enough saving throw. The most powerful casters reach around 40 in their casting stats, meaning saving throws DC up to 35 (I'm sure there are ways to get them higher, but that's what flies at my table). Most of the party already has +15 to +20 to their saving throws, they are fine most of the times. The reason balck tentacles is a problem is that it requires grapple. You can protect yourself from save or die by buffing saving throws, and there are tons of items for it. I know of no item to buff grappple, and even if one existed, getting it just to defend against a single spell seems a waste.

To be clear, I wasn't making a value judgement on you or your table, just trying to provide some help. As was stated earlier, there are tons of ways to improve or completely bypass grapples, and these should be common tactics at higher levels given the rather astronomical grapple checks out there. You yourself mentioned Freedom of Movement (and there are a handful of ways to get that effect even without the spell or magic item), and several folks have mentioned short range teleports. Also common at the level you are playing should be uses of the Contingency spell, Dispel Magic (for counterspelling or cancelling the spell after it's out), or even that Staff with Disjunction you mentioned (although this may run afoul of how you rule actions in a grapple). And that ignores things that should be super common at this level, like Flight (anything that flies 15 feet off the ground is outright immune to this spell). There are, quite possibly, more ways to beef up your odds in a grapple (and specifically against Black Tentacles) than there are to increase your saving throws.

Out of curiosity, is it just that no one had a prepared defense that is giving you the impression this spell is powerful? If so, then you chalk it up to a learning experience, pick up defenses, and move on. If not, then as I mentioned there are going to be plenty more spells that may be a problem. If it's just battlefield control spells, things like Solid Fog are probably going to be an issue as well.

And if you really want to get crazy, the best grapplers in the game are Wizards. For reference, look up the grapplemancer. :smalltongue:


I asked if a druid can go in wild shape while grappled. One guy said yes, another said no. nowhere does it state if using wild shape has a somatic component (technically that stuff should apply to spell-like abilities, but it makes sense to subject supernatural abilities while grappling to the same limitation).
Anyway, the best option I know for a 12th level druid is a dire bear, which has +23 to grapple, still 1 shy of the tentacles in question.

The answer depends on how you rule spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities that mimic spells. If you treat them like spellcasting, you can. If you don't, then you probably can't (I've seen arguments about the "actions in a grapple" list not being a complete list). The real question is why the druid wasn't already in wildshape form :smallwink:. At level 12, he can be shaped all the time.

One additional note, as the party advances in level, certain types of challenges are no longer a viable thing to put in their path. For example, travel is likely no longer an "adventure" for 12th level characters. They can fly, teleport, or even travel the planes at this point. Pit traps and locked doors are really no challenge anymore, and honestly neither are mundane melee threats (even well-equipped ones). You probably are already accounting for that, but I wanted to give you a heads up. :smallsmile:

[rel]

here are a few nerf suggestions, combine and modify as appropriate for your game and group.

1) The spell takes 1 round (like sleep, enlarge person or summon monster x) to cast

2) the spell grapples but does no damage

3) creatures in the spells area have cover, creatures actually grappled have improved cover and concealement

4) Modify the spells effect to: When the spell is cast and at the start of each of the casters turns creatures in the area make a reflex save. On a failure a creature is stuck in place until the start of the casters next turn. Also creatures in the spell area are entangled (no save).

5) duration is reduced to 1 round + 1 round per 4 levels.

6) A character with a slashing weapon can free themselves from the grapple and / or keep the tentacles at bay until the start of their next turn by expending an attack. They can also bestow this effect on a character within the reach of said slashing weapon.

7) the spells level is 6 not 4

8) spell functions as normal but spawns 1 tentacle per level. Current number of tentacles function as a maximum on the number of targets the spell can affect. Tentacles have the casters saves, an AC of 15 and 20 HP each.

Make sure you allow the players to rebuild their characters and refund any appropriate resources after the nerf.

[King of Nowhere]

Also common at the level you are playing should be uses of the Contingency spell, Dispel Magic (for counterspelling or cancelling the spell after it's out), or even that Staff with Disjunction you mentioned (although this may run afoul of how you rule actions in a grapple). And that ignores things that should be super common at this level, like Flight (anything that flies 15 feet off the ground is outright immune to this spell). There are, quite possibly, more ways to beef up your odds in a grapple (and specifically against Black Tentacles) than there are to increase your saving throws.

Out of curiosity, is it just that no one had a prepared defense that is giving you the impression this spell is powerful? If so, then you chalk it up to a learning experience, pick up defenses, and move on. If not, then as I mentioned there are going to be plenty more spells that may be a problem. If it's just battlefield control spells, things like Solid Fog are probably going to be an issue as well.

And if you really want to get crazy, the best grapplers in the game are Wizards. For reference, look up the grapplemancer. :smalltongue:


Well, it was in large part a matter of setup and lack of appropriate defences. The party was just coming out of a cave when the wizard ambushed them (he did scry on the party earlier, and the party failed the check to realize if they were being scryed; I did warn that making enemy with a 16th level wizard was dangerous); so they were all stuck in a small area and forced to the ground, and the spell hit them all. And they all have beefed up saving throws, but grappling has been a glaring weakness of the party casters. It never came into play much before because the rogue and barbarian were doing a good job of keeping enemy melees at bay.
As for contingencies, I don't allow any of the ways to get more than one, and that one contingency can't cover all cases. I can't remember what the wizard picked, but it wasn't related to grappling nor to a command word. As for dispels, they have several ready but could not cast them.

So, it was as much a matter of right tool in the right situation as of huge spell. Still, the spell is powerful; it's far from the first time I ambush them with a spell meant to disable them, but never before the results have been this devastating. The whole party, except the barbarian, spent three rounds completely defenceless. The rogue freed herself after the first round, I don't remember why she didn't go fight the wizard. Either she tanked the saving throw against sunburst, or she decided to stay and help the others free themselves. The wizard was at the edge of the effect and the dragon managed to drag her out. the cleric freed himself by rolling an 18 against a 3. They survived because the wizard had used all his best slots to buff himself or to set up the ambush, so all he had left to kill were empowered fireballs, and those took a while to burn out all the hp.

[Deadline]

So, it was as much a matter of right tool in the right situation as of huge spell. Still, the spell is powerful; it's far from the first time I ambush them with a spell meant to disable them, but never before the results have been this devastating. The whole party, except the barbarian, spent three rounds completely defenceless. The rogue freed herself after the first round, I don't remember why she didn't go fight the wizard. Either she tanked the saving throw against sunburst, or she decided to stay and help the others free themselves. The wizard was at the edge of the effect and the dragon managed to drag her out. the cleric freed himself by rolling an 18 against a 3. They survived because the wizard had used all his best slots to buff himself or to set up the ambush, so all he had left to kill were empowered fireballs, and those took a while to burn out all the hp.

Ah. I guess I'm not seeing where the spell was a particularly powerful component here, but YMMV. It sounds like a high level wizard surprised the party and targeted the one weakness they had no defense against (essentially a perfect storm). Honestly, at the levels you are playing, for that to turn out as anything other than a TPK seems a little surprising. It sounds like they've all got defenses against it now, which is smart. Your concern about enemies being wiped out seem like one that can be easily managed through the suggestions provided here. Up to and including making sure that your bad guys aren't clumped together. You could certainly nerf the spell, but if you make it something that even wizards can win a grapple check against, you likely won't see it used anymore, because there are tons of more effective spells to be used. Maybe try it without a nerf and with bad guys who have common abilities (flight) and defenses against grapples to see how it works out? You know your table best though, and good suggestions have been given on how to nerf the spell if that's what you are after. I'm super curious to know how it turns out though.

For reference, the 1st level Druid spell Entangle can do much the same thing to an unprepared group. We had a kobold game where we took out a bunch of 4th-5th level fighters with judicious use of Entangle and slings. Total turkey shoot. It's not going to work every time, but if you can catch the bad guys by surprise and they don't have appropriate defenses, then they are going to get wrecked. It's just not going to happen in every encounter.

[King of Nowhere]

For reference, the 1st level Druid spell Entangle can do much the same thing to an unprepared group. We had a kobold game where we took out a bunch of 4th-5th level fighters with judicious use of Entangle and slings. Total turkey shoot. It's not going to work every time, but if you can catch the bad guys by surprise and they don't have appropriate defenses, then they are going to get wrecked. It's just not going to happen in every encounter.

Cool thing, I also used an opponent fond of entangling enemies and sling them when the party was at a much lower level. I don't remember what happened at the time.

[lord_khaine]

Larger creatures have also STR bonuses to help them. I have no problems with black tentacles having a passable chance to hold a dragon on a lucky roll.

Well fair enough, i personally though it was strong enough as it is.

And of course the major problem with it is that its available from level 7 and on. And that it more or less takes out size M opponents, and often screw up groups of size L, unless special defences have been prepared against it.

[King of Nowhere]

Thinking back, I have the impression black tentacles is consistently stronger than other 4th level spells. you can completely screw over a whole party that hasn't taken preparations against it. That's not what 4th level spells do. There are spells of that level that can screw a party, but they give a saving throw that can be reasonably surpassed; or they inflict penalties that are much blander than "incapable of moving or casting spells or using weapons". black tentacles, for most people, gives an opposed grappling check at -10. If I were to start over, I'd make it a 6th level spell unless I was running a high-op campaign

[skunk3]

I don't think a nerf is necessary at all. What is more important is to tailor encounters so that black tentacles isn't as effective. Notice I didn't say ineffective - just not AS effective. There's lots of ways around it.

[King of Nowhere]

I don't think a nerf is necessary at all. What is more important is to tailor encounters so that black tentacles isn't as effective. Notice I didn't say ineffective - just not AS effective. There's lots of ways around it.

That's exactly why I think the spell is overpowered. If I need to tailor encounters for a 12th level party over a 4th level spell, then the spell is overpowered. Of course there are lots of ways around, there are ways around everything. But if you need those ways around, then it's not a balanced 4th level spell

[denthor]

If you want nerf the spell remember it has a location and dize. The party can get caught in the spell effects have it drawn out if the party fighter i's in the area of effect he takes damage as well.

[Necroticplague]

That's exactly why I think the spell is overpowered. If I need to tailor encounters for a 12th level party over a 4th level spell, then the spell is overpowered. No, it means the part is woefully unprepared for grappling. You could replace Black Tentacles with any other source of grappling, and they'd still have a hard time with it. The fact the party is weak against something doesn't make it overpowered.



Of course there are lots of ways around, there are ways around everything. But if you need those ways around, then it's not a balanced 4th level spell
Except that counters to it don't only counter that spell. The counters to Black Tentacles are applicable against all other forms of grappling, so one should have them any way, in case of attacks by things like many Animals and Aberrations or grapple-based Fighters.

You mention the grapple mod of 8+level being 'unbeatable for everything not melee'. However, basically any grappler taken seriously has at least that (str 18 and Improved Grapple or Large Size+it's BaB), and usually a good deal higher (STR greater than 18, larger sizes+Improved grapple, sometimes racial bonuses to grapple).

Yes, the wizard is a bit weak to grapple, barring things like Ghostform, Abrupt Juant, and similar. That's an intended weakness, just as a melee fighter has a weakness against flying enemies with ranged attacks.

[Melcar]

It is important to start with the premise that my game isn't at particularly high optimization level (you could say according to this thread discussing tiers of optimizers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542125-I-give-you-TIERS-OF-THE-OPTIMIZER!) that we are playing at high level 5 or maybe low level 4; basically we know that a wizard should max INT and start a fight with buffs on, or that a melee needs to protect himself against enchantments to avoid being a glass cannon, or stuff of that level of complexity).
We just recently discovered how powerful black tentacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm)is. At the level of optimization we're playing, a grapple check of 8+level is unbeatable for everyone who is not a melee, and can be fairly difficult for the melee too. I understand that more skilled players will know ways to play around that, or will just have other, equally big guns with which to answer, but that's not the case at my table. That spell completely immobilized the party with the sole exception of the barbarian, and I had to dumb down the strategy of the npc to avoid accidentally killing half the party (as in, focusing on said barbarian who is way above the WBL guideline and has devoted most of his money to protect himself against magic attacks, rather than fly out of his reach - the barbarian relied on his dragon companion to fly, but said dragon was grappled - and cast a few empowered fireballs in the middle of the tentacles).
And now that we saw how effective the spell is, the players will want to start using it all the time, which would lead to either an instawin in most encounters, or me designing opponents specifically to resist that spell (incidentally, they all bought rings of freedom of movements after the fight, but I can't give one of those to every single opponent). Again, more skilled players may be able to handle it, but as it is, we risk black tentacles to kill our game by becoming the only spell anyone will use.

If I was just starting this campaign, I'd just ban the spell, but since it has already been used, I need to nerf it to bring it back to a manageable level. I was thinking along a couple of options:
1) make its grapple bonus scale with 3/4 of the caster level instead of the full caster level. That would make it a bit more manageable for clerics and druids. except not that much, clerics don't have +8 STR. it would still be unbearable for wizards and sorcerors too.
2) change it to 4+caster level or 0+caster level. That way it would be effective against a rival caster but not against a melee. And by the time the caster level would really start to add up, then everyone will likely have access to freedom of movement

unfortunately there is such a huge gap between grapple checks of various classes that I can't make the spell survivable by a wizard without making it useless against a melee. Any further advice would be welcome.

Incidentally, a couple of grapple/related questions:
1) can a druid go into wild shape while grappled?
2) is freeing oneself from grapple a standard action?

What level are you playing at?

I have never heard anyone describe black tentacles as op... Freedom of movement, which is a level 4 spell completely makes you immune. You can easily straight op beat it in grapple, unless the wizard has optimized his CL... its a good spell but if you nerf that, you will have your work cut out for your self when getting into other spells...

May I suggest you rethink your tactics in dealing with this spell... Hope ou figure something out that works for you.

[tyckspoon]

No, it means the part is woefully unprepared for grappling. You could replace Black Tentacles with any other source of grappling, and they'd still have a hard time with it. The fact the party is weak against something doesn't make it overpowered.


There is one significant difference - most other means of grapple can only reasonably grapple one party member at a time, which means the rest of the party can beat on it/help out the grappled party member/do whatever without having to deal with being grappled and taking advantage of the grappling enemy also being limited by being in a grapple. Black Tentacles has the range and AoE to grapple most or all of a party at once, as well as not tying the original caster to that grapple. Pretty big difference between 'the big monster grabbed our Fighter, we should get him out' and 'everybody has been grabbed, does anybody have anything useful they can do from inside of a grapple?'

[BassoonHero]

You could replace Black Tentacles with any other source of grappling, and they'd still have a hard time with it.
This is demonstrably untrue.

Let's say a level-appropriate enemy runs up and grapples a party member. How does the party deal with this?

The target escapes the grapple "the hard way".
The target uses anklets of translocation.
The target activates a Freedom of Movement effect.
Another party member activates a Freedom of Movement effect.
Another party member takes advantage of the attacker's vulnerability.
You let the grapplers "hug it out", and each side is temporarily down a combatant.

The problems with Evard's Black Tentacles are that:
One casting forces the party to solve that problem for several party members, at an outrageous action-economy advantage.
By grappling multiple party members, it can make it much more difficult to get each member free.
The caster does not expose themselves to the usual risks of grappling.
The grapple maintains itself, costing multiple party members multiple actions each, while the caster is free.
Adding insult to injury, the radius often precludes escape via short-range teleportation (such as anklets).
Oh, and unlike ordinary grappling, you don't need to hit the targets first.

The grappled condition is nasty, and the primary mitigating factor is that it's symmetrical -- when you grapple someone, they grapple you back. Imposing a one-sided grapple on multiple targets is not at all the same thing as mutually grappling a single target, and a party that is well prepared for the latter may still struggle greatly with the former.

Freedom of Movement is, of course, the best answer. But expecting players to rely on it as a counter to another fourth-level spell is problematic for several reasons:
It takes several castings of Freedom of Movement to counter one casting of Evard's Black Tentacles.
Freedom of Movement requires somatic and material components, so you can't cast it in a grapple anyway.
When level-appropriate encounters gain access to Evard's Black Tentacles, Freedom of Movement is a high-level spell. It's unreasonable to count on the party having access to a specific high-level spell in order to deal with a level-appropriate encounter.
If you're assuming that everyone in the party will be prepared ahead of time with a Third Eye Freedom, a Periapt of the Sullen Sea, or Heart of Water in order to deal with a common spell from the Player's Handbook, then I consider this a concession that the spell is broken.