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Douche
2017-12-12, 01:07 PM
The other day, my players were pilfering dead bodies after coming upon the site of a massacre. Among the bodies was a noblewoman, who was wearing a pair of knee-high stilletto boots, from a famed clothier. The boots were valued at 500 gp, by their estimate.

After reaching town, they got to know the townspeople. They spoke to the only dwarf in town, who ran the steam engine. He had something they wanted - I forget what... information, likely. He wasn't willing to divulge it. They tried to bribe him with the woman's shoes.

I thought it would make sense that a dwarf would be offended at the mere suggestion of being offered feminine clothes. I started furiously shaking my head and saying "no, no, no. I don't want them. Get it away. I don't want to hear about this" and talked over them when they tried to apologize.

Today I received an email from one of my players. She accused me of being transphobic and said she would not be returning. Pretty disheartening, considering that cross dressing never even crossed my mind.

denthor
2017-12-12, 01:17 PM
Per the rules default answer is no. For any reason including your choice in food.

If I had no way of getting value from the boots or no desire to look for a buyer. The dwarf could not wear them human size could not be connected enough to know an NPC Rouge. Your player has never hit a road block in real life so thinks the game should bend to her will. Not all plans work.

She is not thinking beyond her narrow scope.

YugiSyta
2017-12-12, 01:27 PM
I don't think you did anything wrong, you gave an NPC slight character. I don't believe you were being out and out transphobic, your dwarf character wasn't telling anyone they couldn't crossdress, just that he didn't want to and he didn't like it. I feel like your player was being a bit too sensitive and if you truly want them back, try to open a dialogue.

Kayden Prynn
2017-12-12, 01:31 PM
I don't know who this player is, so I don't know if they're an SJW or if it's a more personal matter, but there's a few ways you can go about it. If you wanted the character to come off as offended because they were women's boots, then explain to her that you're not trying to impose your own views on the world, that this character was simply offended by it personally. This may or may not work. If the character simply didn't have the desire or ability to turn a profit off the boots, then you may have roleplayed him inaccurately, but explain that to the player. However, this may just be something you have to accept. I dunno.

denthor
2017-12-12, 02:02 PM
Ask this question an enemy male orc walks into an elvish town demands everyone speak orc or they will kill them the orc is cross dressed as female orc demands healing so he go back to the front to kill elves.

Does her character heal the orc?

Tinkerer
2017-12-12, 02:15 PM
I don't know, I think that a 250gp bribe is quite the generous offer. If I were playing the dwarfs reaction he'd probably be quite confused and after they explained the value of the boots he'd probably get them to go and sell them for him and return with the gold. Unless it was a dwarven noblewoman they looted the boots from it's not like they would fit him anyways so I can't really see why it would be assumed that the offer was for him to wear them. Besides the offer of clothes to someone who lives in soot isn't really a wise choice.

LordHavelock
2017-12-12, 02:17 PM
Wow, there's a lot of snide assumptions coming out here.

The boots have an inherent mechanical value, which you've already established, so just under the idea that anyone would and should appreciate fine craftsmanship (dwarves aside), and material worth is worth more consideration than it appears to have been given.

As for any transphobic predisposition, it's pretty clear that yes, you're carrying a standard level of stigma into this. Just that you defaulted that of course a male dwarf would find anything feminine distasteful out of hand. Crossdressing doesn't even have to figure into it, yet that seems to be the default you came up with and worse, perpetuating the idea that drag is anything disturbing or undesirable, with the kind of cavalier, preemptive dismissal you've presented. It would be different if chauvanism/misogyny/etc. were established as part and party to this character or the setting, as something addressed as part of the narrative, the problem here lies in this base assumption that, of course, there's no basis to the suggestion that the dwarf could have use of these boots, because that's not "normal".

I'm more disturbed by the comments I'm seeing here though that are automatically categorizing the player in question as some sort of "SJW" as a way of dismissing the PC in this case out of hand, without any other context.

NRSASD
2017-12-12, 02:23 PM
My only question is how you expressed the dwarf's refusal to accept the shoes.

If you just said "No, not interested. Why are you even offering me a dead lady's shoes?!?!", that's fine.

If you said something to the effect of "I ain't no dress-wearing, tree-hugging, sissy elfling, why would I want these?" that's fine in my book, but I can see where someone might be offended. Personally I think the player is overreacting, but I can't judge since I wasn't there. Apologize, watch your words in the future, and move on.

If you said something like "I ain't no *(insert transphobic statements and/or expletives)*", that's... not fine. Not wrong, but not cool. As a DM, your job is to be every NPC. Some of these NPCs are scum. That said, your job as a DM is to make the game fun and enjoyable for everyone. If you want to have a transphobic dwarf, you're entitled to do so, but if that touches a nerve in your players, apologize and back off.

Since us DMs play everything from innocent orphans to soul-sucking necromancers, playing a transphobic NPC doesn't mean we're transphobic. But, it is in exceedingly poor taste and ill-considered; like dragging modern day real-life politics into a game. It can be done, but you better know exactly what you're doing and why you're doing it. Anything less will just make your players angry at you (with good reason).

Douche
2017-12-12, 02:45 PM
My only question is how you expressed the dwarf's refusal to accept the shoes.

I played it out as I said to you guys. I didn't use any slurs. I just started fiercely shaking my head and took on a "having none of that" tone. If anything, I played him more insecure. Like he was tempted to take the shoes, but felt that it was taboo. Imagine like a priest being tempted by sex.

But at the heart of it, I did intend to make the dwarf offended. Dwarves are a fiercely masculine culture so attempting to offer them an article of women's clothing, as if they have any use for it, would draw his ire.

NRSASD
2017-12-12, 02:55 PM
In that case, I think you hit a nerve/handled it poorly. Rather than be offended, maybe a reply of "My wife only wears boots with steel toes, no deal." would be a better way of portraying a "fiercely masculine culture" without being confrontational about it. I think the player in question was just as offended by how you said it as what you said. I'd apologize to the player, trying to avoid that kind of response in the future, and move on. It's a game, all of you are here to have fun, and you don't want to lose a friend over the actions of an NPC.

As a complete aside, it might be useful to dissect "fiercely masculine" into its components pieces to characterize the Dwarves. Masculine is a catchall category of traits that are heavily influenced by the culture of the society in question. A few examples of "fiercely masculine behavior" throughout history: homosexuality (Ancient Greece), expensive perfume (Achaemenid Persia), tights (Elizabethan England), and many more.

When you say masculine, what do you mean? There are almost certainly Dwarven women, so how are they masculine? Odds are pretty good that what you're picturing as masculine could be explained with a few more evocative words, which a. helps flesh out your Dwarven culture and b. helps you avoid stepping on players' toes inadvertently.

Cazero
2017-12-12, 03:08 PM
Offering high heels to a dwarf? Are they trying to get themselves killed for implying the dwarf was too short?

LordHavelock
2017-12-12, 03:32 PM
In that case, I think you hit a nerve/handled it poorly. Rather than be offended, maybe a reply of "My wife only wears boots with steel toes, no deal." would be a better way of portraying a "fiercely masculine culture" without being confrontational about it. I think the player in question was just as offended by how you said it as what you said. I'd apologize to the player, trying to avoid that kind of response in the future, and move on. It's a game, all of you are here to have fun, and you don't want to lose a friend over the actions of an NPC.

As a complete aside, it might be useful to dissect "fiercely masculine" into its components pieces to characterize the Dwarves. Masculine is a catchall category of traits that are heavily influenced by the culture of the society in question. A few examples of "fiercely masculine behavior" throughout history: homosexuality (Ancient Greece), expensive perfume (Achaemenid Persia), tights (Elizabethan England), and many more.

When you say masculine, what do you mean? There are almost certainly Dwarven women, so how are they masculine? Odds are pretty good that what you're picturing as masculine could be explained with a few more evocative words, which a. helps flesh out your Dwarven culture and b. helps you avoid stepping on players' toes inadvertently.

If I could up vote this response, I would.

Lapak
2017-12-12, 04:31 PM
In that case, I think you hit a nerve/handled it poorly. Rather than be offended, maybe a reply of "My wife only wears boots with steel toes, no deal." would be a better way of portraying a "fiercely masculine culture" without being confrontational about it. I think the player in question was just as offended by how you said it as what you said. I'd apologize to the player, trying to avoid that kind of response in the future, and move on. It's a game, all of you are here to have fun, and you don't want to lose a friend over the actions of an NPC.
First off, all of this response was really good.

Second, yeah; if not transphobic then at the least you were portraying an NPC as misogynistic if they were offended by the notion of femininity. NPC opinions != your opinions, but portraying a character who is otherwise neutral with unpleasant characteristics can be a tough line to walk.

Which brings me back to the response I quoted; whatever your intent, you offended one of your players. Checking with anyone else to see if it was ‘reasonable’ to be offended is both doomed to failure (since we weren’t there) and irrelevant; when someone says “you hurt me,” the answer of a friend is “I am sorry, I didn’t mean to and I won’t do it again” not “no I didn’t.”

Apropos of nothing in particular, depending on what part of history you are pseudo-emulating the footwear you are describing is just as likely to BE very ‘masculine’ clothing.

Mr Beer
2017-12-12, 05:29 PM
Thread title is silly, an NPC can react however the DM deems appropriate, there is no one true way for the high heels + dwarf encounter to go down.

Also, DMs who shout down multiple players in guise of 'playing an NPC' is obnoxious behaviour.

In the scenario as stated, announcing that you are being transphobic and leaving the group is a silly and overly dramatic reaction. That said, it sounds like you were being annoying, maybe this is just the final straw for this player. Few players walk just because they didn't like an NPC. Also, I don't know her side of it.

Cliffs: She's a snowflake or you're a douche? Not enough information.

Knaight
2017-12-12, 05:44 PM
In the scenario as stated, announcing that you are being transphobic and leaving the group is a silly and overly dramatic reaction. That said, it sounds like you were being annoying, maybe this is just the final straw for this player. Few players walk just because they didn't like an NPC. Also, I don't know her side of it.
There's also the small matter of how words and actions are interpreted in the context of previous words and actions - in this case, if you've been a douche then things that may or may not be a douche move are more likely to be interpreted as one. This is particularly true in the context of presenting fiction, where the same source material can come across as either a utopian fantasy or a cautionary tale depending on who made it and what else they've said/written. It's also really easy to make reasonable objections look unreasonable by removing context, or to make the absence of unreasonable objections look itself unreasonable with the same technique.


Cliffs: She's a snowflake or you're a douche? Not enough information.
Given the choice of usernames I'm willing to make a guess on this one.

Anonymouswizard
2017-12-12, 06:30 PM
Offering high heels to a dwarf? Are they trying to get themselves killed for implying the dwarf was too short?

Yeah, my dwarves would have your knees for that.

Anyway, this thread has given me an idea for my setting's dwarven culture (alongside the significance of hair in it, when a dwarf reaches adulthood there's a ceremony where their heads are shaved and the hair burnt, they'll then grow the traditional hairstyle of their profession). Now my dwarves have no concept of gender.

As a bonus they're now generally pansexual. They understand there's such a thing as differing sexes, but see no reason why having breasts means you should be different than if you had a beard. All dwarves may enter all professions, and any dwarf may marry any other dwarf regardless of sex or social status. While many dwarves do want children, an adopted child will do for same sex pairs.

Offer a dwarf woman's boots of fine craftsmanship and they'll likely accept. Nice boosts are nice boots, and they go well with the beard braids I bought a few months back (although yeah, heeled boots wouldn't go down well with them, insulting a dwarf's height is almost as bad as insulting their hair).

Some dwarves do, for one treason or another end up with a concept of gender. They're considered a bit weird, and many leave to live with humans or gnomes, but they're not exactly outcasts and never exiled (the worst punishment for a dwarf, reserved for treason and murder).

War_lord
2017-12-12, 06:54 PM
The OP is someone who has previously admitted to fabricating stories on this forum in order to make some kind of point. Just an FYI for anyone reacting to this.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530906-Was-my-interpretation-of-this-wrong-(quit-a-campaign)

Guizonde
2017-12-12, 06:58 PM
i've seen dwarves being offended from anything as simple as a clean-shaven pc to not being offered sufficiently well-crafted jewelry to being forced to drink water. your dwarf coming off as uncomfortable in the presence of noble women's shoes is about as par for the course as i can see it (although that is indeed one hell of a bribe). i know grown men who won't even touch women's clothing. is that "whatever stigma of the month that'll offend the internet"? yeah, probably. i'd go with "debilitating insecurities", myself, but i got away from that sphere of the internet years ago. oh, not to mention that depending on cultures, it could not even be sexist at all: shoes are very often seen as unclean (remember bush jr nearly getting beaned by a shoe? that was an insult in and of itself, without the projectile factored in).

if anything, i'd say your player had thin skin and you probably didn't do a good enough job of conveying you were playing the npc's reaction. take it in stride and learn from that experience.

Bohandas
2017-12-12, 08:57 PM
The other day, my players were pilfering dead bodies after coming upon the site of a massacre. Among the bodies was a noblewoman, who was wearing a pair of knee-high stilletto boots, from a famed clothier. The boots were valued at 500 gp, by their estimate.

After reaching town, they got to know the townspeople. They spoke to the only dwarf in town, who ran the steam engine. He had something they wanted - I forget what... information, likely. He wasn't willing to divulge it. They tried to bribe him with the woman's shoes.

I thought it would make sense that a dwarf would be offended at the mere suggestion of being offered feminine clothes. I started furiously shaking my head and saying "no, no, no. I don't want them. Get it away. I don't want to hear about this" and talked over them when they tried to apologize.

Today I received an email from one of my players. She accused me of being transphobic and said she would not be returning. Pretty disheartening, considering that cross dressing never even crossed my mind.
The player sounds pretty paranoid and histrionic and probably would have caused problems anyway.

Or maybe she was just looking for an excuse to leave.


The OP is someone who has previously admitted to fabricating stories on this forum in order to make some kind of point. Just an FYI for anyone reacting to this.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530906-Was-my-interpretation-of-this-wrong-(quit-a-campaign)

If this is truly the case than it may instead be the OP being confabulating and histrionic

Samzat
2017-12-12, 09:09 PM
To be fair, offering a dwarf high heels could be seen either as offering a crossdressing opportunity or as a short joke, and could be reacted to as such. Its sorta like offering a halfling a step ladder, except the step ladder is gender associated.

Jormengand
2017-12-12, 09:21 PM
The OP is someone who has previously admitted to fabricating stories on this forum in order to make some kind of point. Just an FYI for anyone reacting to this.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530906-Was-my-interpretation-of-this-wrong-(quit-a-campaign)

Ah, I see. Someone makes up a story to convince their fellow miscreants further that the ebul SJW snowflakes are ruining everything they love, from dating to D&D.

Typical. :smallannoyed:

Tanarii
2017-12-12, 09:58 PM
The OP is someone who has previously admitted to fabricating stories on this forum in order to make some kind of point. Just an FYI for anyone reacting to this.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530906-Was-my-interpretation-of-this-wrong-(quit-a-campaign)that was going to be my question. Is this true, or just another made up thing? Speaking of which, having that knowledge about this poster makes this a piece of art:


There's also the small matter of how words and actions are interpreted in the context of previous words and actions - in this case, if you've been a douche then things that may or may not be a douche move are more likely to be interpreted as one. This is particularly true in the context of presenting fiction, where the same source material can come across as either a utopian fantasy or a cautionary tale depending on who made it and what else they've said/written. It's also really easy to make reasonable objections look unreasonable by removing context, or to make the absence of unreasonable objections look itself unreasonable with the same technique.

War_lord
2017-12-13, 12:53 AM
Based on previous patterns of admitted behavior of the OP, at best they're deliberately leaving out large parts of the story that paint their part in the situation in a far less flattering light. And at worst the entire situation is a fabrication.

RazorChain
2017-12-13, 01:31 AM
This is completely an undestandable behavior


Last time I robbed some bodies after a massacre I got really angry at the midget who wouldn't buy the bloody children shoes I had pilfered. I accused him of ageism because he wouldn't wear children shoes. The nerve of people today.

Pugwampy
2017-12-13, 03:01 AM
Wow a noble dwarf who takes offense to shoes stolen off a corpse . Were the massacre victims even buried after they were pilfered ? Were the shoes cleaned ?

Someone offered me women,s shoes that stink of death and have dry blood on em , I would alert the guards .

Glorthindel
2017-12-13, 04:35 AM
Yeah, aside from the crossdressing angle, they were offering a Dwarf high heels - that is an outrageous shortness insult before you even approach the other side of things. The Dwarf had more than ample reason to be outraged, even if they had been female or partial to female dress. You played this fine.

Satinavian
2017-12-13, 05:58 AM
Offering high heels to a dwarf? Are they trying to get themselves killed for implying the dwarf was too short?

Had the same reaction. At first assumed the dwarf took as as insult to his height.

Anteros
2017-12-13, 06:24 AM
Ah, I see. Someone makes up a story to convince their fellow miscreants further that the ebul SJW snowflakes are ruining everything they love, from dating to D&D.

Typical. :smallannoyed:

Or he's an internet troll who enjoys causing arguments and division and you're reacting exactly how he wants you to.

Tinkerer
2017-12-13, 10:31 AM
Why do people think that being called short is an insult to dwarves? It's humans who are hung up on height issues, being a short dwarf just means you fit into more tunnels. Now if they had offered the dwarf a salve that supposedly aids in beard growth then I could see the dwarf taking offense.

Satinavian
2017-12-13, 10:46 AM
It is insulting because they offered a tool to combat that shortness thus implying it needs to be rectified.

JellyPooga
2017-12-13, 11:00 AM
I'd be more concerned that a player considered shoes an appropriate bribe in the first place. Money? Yes. Gems? Yeah. Barter goods (salt, etc.)? Yeah. A pair of shoes? Er...what? Monetary value aside, what gave the player the impression that a pair of shoes, that probably don't fit, may not be to the recipients taste, among other factors, were an appropriate bribe to offer? I'm a liberally minded person, but if someone offered me shoes to get info out of me, I'd most likely just look at them a bit weirdly and try to weasel my way out of the conversation with this weirdo out of towner that's offering me friggin' shoes, of all things.

Anonymouswizard
2017-12-13, 11:13 AM
Why do people think that being called short is an insult to dwarves? It's humans who are hung up on height issues, being a short dwarf just means you fit into more tunnels. Now if they had offered the dwarf a salve that supposedly aids in beard growth then I could see the dwarf taking offense.

It is insulting because they offered a tool to combat that shortness thus implying it needs to be rectified.

Exactly this.
Next paragraph directed at Tinkerer.
It's not that you're saying a dwarf is short, you're saying that there's something wrong with that shortness. A dwarf doesn't offer humans to cut their legs off so they'd be the correct height, so stop implying a dwarf has to wear heels in order to be so. Especially if dwarves value shortness, like in your example. In fact, in those cases shoes designed to increase your height could even be an insult, saying you're not good enough for the real/difficult work.

Tinkerer
2017-12-13, 11:24 AM
It is insulting because they offered a tool to combat that shortness thus implying it needs to be rectified.

I can't say that I buy it. If someone offered me an amulet which temporarily decreases my height by one foot I wouldn't interpret it as someone saying that I am too tall.

The fact that there is only one dwarf in the town means it is fairly safe to say that the noblewoman wasn't a dwarf which leads to my confusion about the assumption that they were suggesting that the dwarf would wear them since virtually no race shares foot structure with dwarves. Judging by the description the boots weren't magic boots which would resize to the wearers foot. They established two facts about the boots 1) That they were valuable and 2) That they were expertly constructed. And as I'm sure we all know if there are two things that dwarves hate it's gold and expert craftsmanship.

EDIT: And as a smith the dwarf's appraise should be through the roof meaning he knows what the boots are worth.

War_lord
2017-12-13, 01:05 PM
Or he's an internet troll who enjoys causing arguments and division and you're reacting exactly how he wants you to.

Which is something I've pointed out, and people are still feeding the troll.

elanfanboy
2017-12-13, 03:53 PM
The other day, my players were pilfering dead bodies after coming upon the site of a massacre. Among the bodies was a noblewoman, who was wearing a pair of knee-high stilletto boots, from a famed clothier. The boots were valued at 500 gp, by their estimate.

After reaching town, they got to know the townspeople. They spoke to the only dwarf in town, who ran the steam engine. He had something they wanted - I forget what... information, likely. He wasn't willing to divulge it. They tried to bribe him with the woman's shoes.

I thought it would make sense that a dwarf would be offended at the mere suggestion of being offered feminine clothes. I started furiously shaking my head and saying "no, no, no. I don't want them. Get it away. I don't want to hear about this" and talked over them when they tried to apologize.

Today I received an email from one of my players. She accused me of being transphobic and said she would not be returning. Pretty disheartening, considering that cross dressing never even crossed my mind.
back around the medeival period that i'm assuming your game takes place in, high heels were actually men's shoes, they were abandoned when women started using them however, as to your player, you should tell them that being historically accurate is not being transphobic, although if you were playing a sci fi game, i can see how this conclusion could be met, though it's still unreasonable for the player as not everyone wants a pair of women's shoes.

Knaight
2017-12-13, 04:08 PM
that was going to be my question. Is this true, or just another made up thing? Speaking of which, having that knowledge about this poster makes this a piece of art:

That post really did suddenly increase in relevance given that new knowledge. I was operating on a general assumption of honesty, tempered by people being honestly biased towards themselves and thus generally having a more flattering version of events than the truth.

Tinkerer
2017-12-13, 04:22 PM
That post really did suddenly increase in relevance given that new knowledge. I was operating on a general assumption of honesty, tempered by people being honestly biased towards themselves and thus generally having a more flattering version of events than the truth.

Oh yeah, Douche has stated several times that they completely fabricate part or all of their posts frequently.

I can't quite say that I agree with the responses though since I can't see how anyone would possibly think that the players were suggesting that the dwarf wear the shoes. I may not like Jackson Pollock's paintings however if someone offered me one as payment for services rendered you can bet that I would take that offer in a heartbeat, assuming I could get it's authenticity verified.

In short: WHY PEOPLE, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WERE OFFERING THE DWARF THE SHOES TO WEAR!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Douche
2017-12-13, 04:48 PM
I just want to know if it's okay to have insecure/transphobic dwarves because I feel like that's how their culture would be in my interpretation. They just hit stuff with hammers all the time because they are so masculine and grow beards because they have to show how much testosterone they have. Also I'm pretty sure dwarves are molded from clay and that's how they reproduce so there wouldn't be any women in their society. Technically they are all agender/asexual which is what I'm going for, but their gender expression is masculine.

The thing is, my setting is an industrialized world and having fiercely masculine dwarves is like the least of my worries if I am trying to depict my interpretation of the industrialized revolution. I mean, just wait until they learn that the factory workers are all orcs who have been kidnapped en masse from their tribes out on the planes and forced to work for slave wages with no rights. There's a whole subplot about them trying to unionize and the police are sent in to slaughter the protesters.

The thing is, I want to portray a deeply oppressive world so that the players can overcome it. But it's like c'mon dawg if you can't handle shoe-hating dwarves then what am I supposed to do?

Mr Beer
2017-12-13, 05:22 PM
Is it OK to write fiction which has fictional transphobic races? Seems like OP is writing fiction about writing fiction which has transphobic races, which is a much less interesting question.

Kalashak
2017-12-13, 05:27 PM
Oh yeah, Douche has stated several times that they completely fabricate part or all of their posts frequently.

I can't quite say that I agree with the responses though since I can't see how anyone would possibly think that the players were suggesting that the dwarf wear the shoes. I may not like Jackson Pollock's paintings however if someone offered me one as payment for services rendered you can bet that I would take that offer in a heartbeat, assuming I could get it's authenticity verified.

In short: WHY PEOPLE, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WERE OFFERING THE DWARF THE SHOES TO WEAR!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

People seem to be trying awfully hard to come up with alternate explanations about why the dwarf got offended so they can make the TC's player seem unreasonable for getting offended by it.

Douche, did you tell your players what your goal was when you started the game? It might not be something they're interested in and it might not be something you're portraying very well.

Keltest
2017-12-13, 05:32 PM
Oh yeah, Douche has stated several times that they completely fabricate part or all of their posts frequently.

I can't quite say that I agree with the responses though since I can't see how anyone would possibly think that the players were suggesting that the dwarf wear the shoes. I may not like Jackson Pollock's paintings however if someone offered me one as payment for services rendered you can bet that I would take that offer in a heartbeat, assuming I could get it's authenticity verified.

In short: WHY PEOPLE, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WERE OFFERING THE DWARF THE SHOES TO WEAR!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

What else is he supposed to do with them? Its not like random joe village is going to have a lot of noblewomen traveling through to sell the shoes off to.

JellyPooga
2017-12-13, 05:36 PM
In short: WHY PEOPLE, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WERE OFFERING THE DWARF THE SHOES TO WEAR!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

It's not that...it's that they're not a Jackson Pollock. They're just a nice pair of shoes. SHOES. That's...just weird. I couldn't walk into my local store and pay for my groceries with a t-shirt. I couldn't pay my lawyer fees with a fancy hat. I'm going to look askance at someone trying to buy information with shoes, regardless of how fancy or expensive they are. Cross-dressing and the rest aside, it's a weird and suspicious thing to even attempt.

NRSASD
2017-12-13, 05:43 PM
@OP Define the word masculine as you see it. Like I and others mentioned above, masculine is a super imprecise word to define a species. Are your dwarves strong? Dirty? Obsessed with no-frills practicality and alcohol? Calling your dwarves masculine is like defining a species of spiders "political". It literally means nothing, or rather, it means something different to every single person you ask.

Since there are no dwarf women (which is totally fine by the way), why the adverse reaction to feminine clothing? If anything, I think they'd just be confused. Their society has no "weaker" or "stronger" gender, or any gender difference at all, so why would a dwarf think that a lady's boots would be insulting? If I were you, I'd play the dwarf like how I would play someone who has lived in the Sahara all their life being offered a nice rowboat. "Thanks for the lovely gift. What is it?"

As an honest but snarky aside, why did that noblewoman still have such nice boots after being massacred? Every massacre I've been a part of, you make sure to loot the bodies. That's at least a third of the fun for crying out loud!

Disclaimer: I do not support or participate in massacres. They're terrible. Obviously.

Guizonde
2017-12-13, 05:58 PM
Disclaimer: I do not support or participate in massacres. They're terrible. Obviously.


says you. you can't spell "funeral" without "fun". more funerals, more fun!

Douche
2017-12-13, 06:49 PM
People seem to be trying awfully hard to come up with alternate explanations about why the dwarf got offended so they can make the TC's player seem unreasonable for getting offended by it.

Douche, did you tell your players what your goal was when you started the game? It might not be something they're interested in and it might not be something you're portraying very well.

I actually handed out a 40 page pamphlet introducing my characters to the world, history, backstory, themes, key figures, cosmology, etc. This was a month before our first session. I also had my players write a minimum 5 paragraph backstory (which I then coauthored with them to have it fit in the world and give it the proper context) to ensure that they were invested.

The backstory included the long history of exploitation and oppression of underprivileged groups. The world is actually run by a cabal of gnomes who genetically engineered dim witted and unquestionably loyal half-ogres to serve as their bodyguards and enforcers. The main force of evil is a sort of Bohemian Grove/Illuminati mega rich collective of politicians and corporations.


@OP Define the word masculine as you see it. Like I and others mentioned above, masculine is a super imprecise word to define a species. Are your dwarves strong? Dirty? Obsessed with no-frills practicality and alcohol? Calling your dwarves masculine is like defining a species of spiders "political". It literally means nothing, or rather, it means something different to every single person you ask.

Those are all great examples of being fiercely masculine. And if you ask me, political spiders are like political thrillers in that they involve a lot of wheeling & dealing, as well as backstabbing. They'd actually fit in well in my campaign!

Bohandas
2017-12-13, 06:54 PM
@OP Define the word masculine as you see it. Like I and others mentioned above, masculine is a super imprecise word to define a species. Are your dwarves strong? Dirty? Obsessed with no-frills practicality and alcohol? Calling your dwarves masculine is like defining a species of spiders "political". It literally means nothing, or rather, it means something different to every single person you ask.

Since there are no dwarf women (which is totally fine by the way), why the adverse reaction to feminine clothing? If anything, I think they'd just be confused. Their society has no "weaker" or "stronger" gender, or any gender difference at all, so why would a dwarf think that a lady's boots would be insulting? If I were you, I'd play the dwarf like how I would play someone who has lived in the Sahara all their life being offered a nice rowboat. "Thanks for the lovely gift. What is it?"

And why does it come with two winnowing fans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnowing_Oar)

Jerrykhor
2017-12-14, 01:08 AM
Much ado about nothing. Thankfully, I don't play with people who are that easily offended. Having to constantly tiptoe around their fragile feelings would be a chore. People like them choose to be offended, there's not much you can do about it.

One also should know that in a pseudo-medieval setting, most things aren't going to be PC. Maybe you could explain a bit better, like how dwarves in general are masculine by human standards. In fact, most things in D&D are judged by human standards, like how they describe elves to be beautiful, graceful, etc. But not to a Beholder or Troll, I presume.

But there are many reasons why the shoes fail as a bribing tool, the dwarf may not want anything to do with a dead person's possessions, or simply not interested in shoes, human culture or whatever. Or maybe because: Cold, hard gold pieces is still better.

Mordaedil
2017-12-14, 02:27 AM
I recommend people eliminate "snowflakes" and "SJW" from their vocabularies though, they are mostly used by douchebags who are upset that people care too much about others and immediately just puts the opposition on the defensive regardless of their argument.

Like, I know some of you are old enough to remmeber this, but it's basically just a reaction to White Knights, but somehow a really angry response, because it is deemed an ineffective strategy to land them lady-favors? It's a very strange internet phenomena, but we gotta show our age and let childish behavior die.

That's just my 2 cents though.

Jerrykhor
2017-12-14, 02:41 AM
I recommend people eliminate "snowflakes" and "SJW" from their vocabularies though, they are mostly used by douchebags who are upset that people care too much about others and immediately just puts the opposition on the defensive regardless of their argument.

Like, I know some of you are old enough to remmeber this, but it's basically just a reaction to White Knights, but somehow a really angry response, because it is deemed an ineffective strategy to land them lady-favors? It's a very strange internet phenomena, but we gotta show our age and let childish behavior die.

That's just my 2 cents though.

Nothing wrong from calling a spade a spade. SJWs did not do themselves any favours with their recent behaviours lately. Don't defend them, because they don't deserve it. Its time for them to be called out for their stupidity.

Mordaedil
2017-12-14, 04:33 AM
I guess I should have realized forums on this hobby would attract this kind of people that don't quite understand what is in their own best interest, but oh well.

Ashtagon
2017-12-14, 04:51 AM
In a strange way, this reminds me of a time I was on holiday in Tanzania many years ago, doing one of those safari tours. A local tribal warrior came up to me, and explained that he really wanted my shoes - the very ones I was wearing (I guess Doc Martens are just that nice). To show how serious he was, he was willing to give me the ten-foot spear he was carrying plus my choice of sheep from his herd by home.

It really didn't matter how valuable that spear and the goat were. There was no way I'd be able to take them home on the airplane. They were of literally no use to me. To be sure, I would have liked to have that spear, but I couldn't. The offered goods were simply not relevant to me.

Anteros
2017-12-14, 05:17 AM
I just want to know if it's okay to have insecure/transphobic dwarves because I feel like that's how their culture would be in my interpretation. They just hit stuff with hammers all the time because they are so masculine and grow beards because they have to show how much testosterone they have. Also I'm pretty sure dwarves are molded from clay and that's how they reproduce so there wouldn't be any women in their society. Technically they are all agender/asexual which is what I'm going for, but their gender expression is masculine.

The thing is, my setting is an industrialized world and having fiercely masculine dwarves is like the least of my worries if I am trying to depict my interpretation of the industrialized revolution. I mean, just wait until they learn that the factory workers are all orcs who have been kidnapped en masse from their tribes out on the planes and forced to work for slave wages with no rights. There's a whole subplot about them trying to unionize and the police are sent in to slaughter the protesters.

The thing is, I want to portray a deeply oppressive world so that the players can overcome it. But it's like c'mon dawg if you can't handle shoe-hating dwarves then what am I supposed to do?

It probably has a lot less to do with how the NPC reacted and a lot more to do with how you personally portrayed it. That's assuming any of this story is even real, and that you haven't changed events to make yourself look better. Given your admitted history of lying and making things up, I don't trust your version of events at all though.

gkathellar
2017-12-14, 05:51 AM
Which brings me back to the response I quoted; whatever your intent, you offended one of your players. Checking with anyone else to see if it was ‘reasonable’ to be offended is both doomed to failure (since we weren’t there) and irrelevant; when someone says “you hurt me,” the answer of a friend is “I am sorry, I didn’t mean to and I won’t do it again” not “no I didn’t.”

QFT.


Apropos of nothing in particular, depending on what part of history you are pseudo-emulating the footwear you are describing is just as likely to BE very ‘masculine’ clothing.

"You expect me to wear loose blue textile pants? I'm a man! Bring me my pink silk stockings!"

Lorsa
2017-12-14, 06:22 AM
How would anyone react to being offered a pair of women's shoes?

Most likely you'd think about two things. One, if you can use them yourself and two, if you can sell them for money.

For the first one, it is quiet obvious this is not a good fit for a dwarf. If they were human boots, the size would obviously be wrong, and you can't expect a male dwarf to be interested in the same fashion choice as a human noblewoman.

For the second one, if they were truly valued at 500 gold, that's a significant amount and something any dwarf would consider. The question then is, what is the market for noble lady-shoes in the town and can the dwarf expect to sell them at a reasonable price? If the answer is no, then the shoes have little value to the dwarf, if it's yes then they hold a monetary value equal to the expected sell price (minus the time spent on finding a buyer). So the question then becomes if the dwarf would find that monetary value acceptable as a trade for the information.

I don't see how being a dwarf automatically makes you take offense at being offered women's shoes as a trade for information. I've always thought Dwarves were pragmatic, especially in regards to business. Taking offense because of what is offered, even if it has a high monetary value, is something I would expect from Elves.

In any case, I don't think portrayal of any single NPC or even a whole culture disliking women's shoes imply a transphobic nature in the GM. That would be true if basically every NPC and every culture exhibited transphobic attitudes. If I was in the position of the OP, I would try to explain just that; that NPCs can be transphobic even if I am not. Just as some NPCs are evil murderous bastards while I am not.

PersonMan
2017-12-14, 06:27 AM
Nothing wrong from calling a spade a spade. SJWs did not do themselves any favours with their recent behaviours lately. Don't defend them, because they don't deserve it. Its time for them to be called out for their stupidity.

If you want to be associated with childish jerks angry at people telling them they're being jerks, more power to you.

Glorthindel
2017-12-14, 06:29 AM
In short: WHY PEOPLE, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WERE OFFERING THE DWARF THE SHOES TO WEAR!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Because what else was he supposed to do with them?

Was he a cobbler, or tailor? No, he is not even a tradesman of any type, so it is unreasonable to assume they were offering him for resale.

Is he a known collector of womens footwear? No, so its unreasonable to assume he wanted them for artistic merit.

Does he have connections with the black market? No, so its unreasonable to assume any dubiously-obtained bloodstained items would be fenceable through him.

Does he have feet? Yes, so possibly they are suggesting he wear them.

Yes, its a long assumption to make, but given there is literally no other feasible explanation for pushing a set of bloodstained shoes on an engineer that makes even a shred of sense, then it is not unreasonable for the Dwarf to come to that conclusion. And coming to that conclusion, doing so is insulting for a very clear reason (a height insult, something the only Dwarf in a human settlement is likely to be very acutely conscious of), long before we even raise the question of whether the shoes being womens ones is a further issue.

Tinkerer
2017-12-14, 10:59 AM
Because what else was he supposed to do with them?

Was he a cobbler, or tailor? No, he is not even a tradesman of any type, so it is unreasonable to assume they were offering him for resale.


He was a blacksmith. That is the very definition of a tradesman. The profits from the shoes would be equivalent to months worth of business and labour. I sell electronics but if someone wanted to pay off their $100 bill with a $200,000 painting I would definitely work with them on it. At the very least tell them to sell it and come back with the money.

And he has feet however there is no way in hell that a noblewoman's boots would fit dwarven feet. I mean have you seen those things? And they were knee-high boots... think about that for a moment. A dwarf, knee-high boots. I would think it would be more reasonable to guess that he would have black market connections (being the only smithy in town) than to guess that the intent was for him to wear them.

And JellyPooga I definitely agree, it is weird and suspicious. It is also a buttload of money. I think a lot of players forget just how bizarre economics is in D&D. Assuming that they were in good condition (which they most likely were considering they appraised them at 500gp, if the blood had truly soaked in they likely would have been worth much less) there are a lot of things that people would be willing to overlook. The dwarf clearly needs supplies for the smithy so he likely deals with a supply line that he can head back up. He can also consult with the local clothier to verify the boots value and possibly offer them first dibs on the product. Or get the players to go down there and get the clothier to evaluate them.

One critical piece of information which is missing though is what they were asking for in exchange for the boots. If it is something which would require a bribe of 500gp then I could see a flat refusal. It sounded more like something which would not require a bribe at all though in which case it is a rather ridiculous response.

Unless of course one of the quirks of your particular species of dwarf is that they hate gold. Then I could see that reaction.

EDIT: Wow, how did I get blacksmith out of there when OP clearly mentioned that he ran the steam engine. Whoops.

JellyPooga
2017-12-14, 11:34 AM
He was a blacksmith.
[snip]
It is also a buttload of money.

The question is; how would a dwarf blacksmith know, at a glance, the value of a pair of high-fashion shoes (ladies or otherwise)? Unless they were made by a famous shoemaker that made instantly recognisable shoes (which is unlikely), it's just a fancy looking pair of shoes; maybe worth a bob or two and worth considering, maybe not worth more than the best that he could pick up from the local cobblers. If they were recognisably valuable, then the value alone is further reason to be suspect and reject the offer out of hand; after all, if someone's offering something of such great value, then whatever they want (whether it be information or something more material) is also suspect. If this smith is honest, he may simply not want anything to do with such potentially nefarious dealings.

The point is, that this deal and reaction has no implications regarding transexuality, crossdressing or similar, unless there's some factor that the OP has missed out (e.g. an offensive slur used in the rejection).

Keltest
2017-12-14, 11:35 AM
He was a blacksmith. That is the very definition of a tradesman. The profits from the shoes would be equivalent to months worth of business and labour. I sell electronics but if someone wanted to pay off their $100 bill with a $200,000 painting I would definitely work with them on it. At the very least tell them to sell it and come back with the money.

And he has feet however there is no way in hell that a noblewoman's boots would fit dwarven feet. I mean have you seen those things? And they were knee-high boots... think about that for a moment. A dwarf, knee-high boots. I would think it would be more reasonable to guess that he would have black market connections (being the only smithy in town) than to guess that the intent was for him to wear them.

And JellyPooga I definitely agree, it is weird and suspicious. It is also a buttload of money. I think a lot of players forget just how bizarre economics is in D&D. Assuming that they were in good condition (which they most likely were considering they appraised them at 500gp, if the blood had truly soaked in they likely would have been worth much less) there are a lot of things that people would be willing to overlook. The dwarf clearly needs supplies for the smithy so he likely deals with a supply line that he can head back up. He can also consult with the local clothier to verify the boots value and possibly offer them first dibs on the product. Or get the players to go down there and get the clothier to evaluate them.

One critical piece of information which is missing though is what they were asking for in exchange for the boots. If it is something which would require a bribe of 500gp then I could see a flat refusal. It sounded more like something which would not require a bribe at all though in which case it is a rather ridiculous response.

Unless of course one of the quirks of your particular species of dwarf is that they hate gold. Then I could see that reaction.

I think youre too used to video game economics where you can sell any item to and vendor for the same price. Just because he has a trade doesn't mean that he can therefore barter any item. Theyre in random joe village, theres no market for 500 GP shoes. Nobody can even afford them. They are functionally worthless because he cant do anything with them, and that's before you get into the fact that they ripped them off a dead person.

Vinyadan
2017-12-14, 11:47 AM
https://s18.postimg.org/9jl99risp/53449685b7f53cd6f9a8c3cc2b5adcb7.jpg

Tinkerer
2017-12-14, 11:55 AM
The question is; how would a dwarf blacksmith know, at a glance, the value of a pair of high-fashion shoes (ladies or otherwise)? Unless they were made by a famous shoemaker that made instantly recognisable shoes (which is unlikely), it's just a fancy looking pair of shoes; maybe worth a bob or two and worth considering, maybe not worth more than the best that he could pick up from the local cobblers. If they were recognisably valuable, then the value alone is further reason to be suspect and reject the offer out of hand; after all, if someone's offering something of such great value, then whatever they want (whether it be information or something more material) is also suspect. If this smith is honest, he may simply not want anything to do with such potentially nefarious dealings.

The point is, that this deal and reaction has no implications regarding transexuality, crossdressing or similar, unless there's some factor that the OP has missed out (e.g. an offensive slur used in the rejection).

Same way as the adventurers. Appraisal of the shoes. How did the adventurers know the value? Was one of them a haute couture aficionado? I'm gonna guess it was the appraisal skill. I definitely concur though that the reaction has no dire implications within it though. And since OP has mentioned that they routinely make up stories as jokes I'm gonna assume that this is one of those stories since the events laid out within it do not seem to add up.


I think youre too used to video game economics where you can sell any item to and vendor for the same price. Just because he has a trade doesn't mean that he can therefore barter any item. Theyre in random joe village, theres no market for 500 GP shoes. Nobody can even afford them. They are functionally worthless because he cant do anything with them, and that's before you get into the fact that they ripped them off a dead person.

The town is large enough for a steam engine, that suggests some measure of wealth. I own a store and if someone came in asking for information and tried to offer me their car to sweeten the deal I would take the car and provide them with the same information which I would provide them normally. Then I would give the cops a call and check to see if the car was stolen and if it was then I could give them the description of the dangerous criminals and they would confiscate the car. If it wasn't I'd sell the car and be laughing all the way to the bank.

Douche
2017-12-14, 12:06 PM
It wasn't a smithy, it was a steam engine maintenance man. You guys hear that there's one dwarf living in town and you automatically assume they're a blacksmith? That's racist.

And I posited the shoes to them as being like Louboutins (?) or some equally recognizable brand. Ergo "famed clothier". You don't have to be a fashionista to see a Gucci purse on the ground and say "I could probably hock that on craiglist for like $100 or something!"

They also ended up selling the shoes to a sassy importer for 300 gp.

War_lord
2017-12-14, 12:29 PM
...Why are people debating the shoe economy of a fictitious world in someone's head, and not the fact that the OP's story, as presented, makes no sense?

So they offer the dwarf the shoes, which the dwarf refuses in terms the OP assures us could not reasonably be seen by anyone as offensive. And the OP insists that they themselves did not use any offensive terms.

And then this player sends an email saying they're leaving the game. Not saying they're bored with the game, not saying the DM was generally being an ass, but specifically accusing the OP/DM of being transphobic. That kind of specific accusation doesn't come out of nowhere. So either:

1. The OP is leaving huge gaps in the story on purpose, because they know the missing material will paint them in a worse light.

2. Or this story is entirely fictitious and the OP is relying on the sheltered and gated nature of the gamer crowd to make sure it doesn't get questioned to the point they have to back down like last time they pulled this. There's plenty of people who want to believe this story, because it confirms their biases and fears.

Tinkerer
2017-12-14, 12:39 PM
Honestly War_Lord because the shoe economy is the more interesting and debatable point. If Douche did do something I doubt they are going to admit it plus several people have stated that they don't believe it for a second and provided evidence to back that suspicion. I see no reason to beat that dead horse any further. Now the physiology of dwarven feet plus local market conditions for high end shoes on the other hand, that's something I can debate.

EDIT: And I did correct my previous post where I mentioned blacksmith. Honestly my mind just recalled that it was a sooty hot job and auto-corrected to blacksmith.

RifleAvenger
2017-12-14, 01:00 PM
Honestly War_Lord because the shoe economy is the more interesting and debatable point. If Douche did do something I doubt they are going to admit it plus several people have stated that they don't believe it for a second and provided evidence to back that suspicion. I see no reason to beat that dead horse any further. Now the physiology of dwarven feet plus local market conditions for high end shoes on the other hand, that's something I can debate.

EDIT: And I did correct my previous post where I mentioned blacksmith. Honestly my mind just recalled that it was a sooty hot job and auto-corrected to blacksmith.

The circumstances of trying to sell valuable, but niche or odd, items given local economics is indeed a cool idea to debate. Not every store is pawn shop after all, and people in a small town might not have much use for gold bars over spare change or commodities.

I don't see why it has to be debated here, where it's supporting attention for a known liar's tale that's potentially meant for either trolling or to purposefully make a certain group of people look bad or irrational.

Bohandas
2017-12-14, 01:17 PM
...Why are people debating the shoe economy of a fictitious world in someone's head, and not the fact that the OP's story, as presented, makes no sense?

So they offer the dwarf the shoes, which the dwarf refuses in terms the OP assures us could not reasonably be seen by anyone as offensive. And the OP insists that they themselves did not use any offensive terms.

And then this player sends an email saying they're leaving the game. Not saying they're bored with the game, not saying the DM was generally being an ass, but specifically accusing the OP/DM of being transphobic. That kind of specific accusation doesn't come out of nowhere. So either:

1. The OP is leaving huge gaps in the story on purpose, because they know the missing material will paint them in a worse light.

2. Or this story is entirely fictitious and the OP is relying on the sheltered and gated nature of the gamer crowd to make sure it doesn't get questioned to the point they have to back down like last time they pulled this. There's plenty of people who want to believe this story, because it confirms their biases and fears.

My assessment is that either

1.) the story is true and the player has some kind of personality disorder

OR

2.) The story is not true and the OP is nuts

Bohandas
2017-12-14, 01:29 PM
The other day, my players were pilfering dead bodies after coming upon the site of a massacre. Among the bodies was a noblewoman, who was wearing a pair of knee-high stilletto boots, from a famed clothier. The boots were valued at 500 gp, by their estimate.

As an aside, it has always been my personal theory that this exact situation is probably where the term "munchkin" to refer to a powergamer comes from. Character comes across a dead body and instead of roleplaying the situation their first instinct is to steal their expensive shoes.

ExLibrisMortis
2017-12-14, 01:43 PM
For what it's worth, I would be weirded out if someone offered to pay me with a $2000 pair of high-heeled boots smelling of blood. Not so much because of any cross-dressing that might be associated, but because it's really weird and I would look really weird trying to sell them. Why do you even have these boots? Why do they smell of blood? Where's the police when you need them? Am I about to get stabbed by the guy TWF-ing stiletto boots? That's just more trouble than it's worth, you know.

Not that I could distinguish a $2000 pair of boots from a $20 pair of fakes, so the point's moot.


Oh, and it takes one minute to appraise something. The dwarf couldn't just see the value being offered.

Douche
2017-12-14, 02:02 PM
Look guys, my personal views aside, I thought that I would create a depiction of toxic masculinity. I did not portray it as a quality to be admired. It was actually meant to make the dwarf look weak so that everyone else could feel morally superior to him. So it's actually the opposite of transphobia.

The whole scene took maybe 2 minutes so I'm not sure what else I could add to the story to make myself look like a villain, but I have been fully polite and accommodating to all my players.

I suppose a picture says 1000 words. A gif probably says even more. Check this one out
https://media.giphy.com/media/hpn1MBPvBUkbm/giphy.gif

You can see that Kramer is clearly uncomfortable with something, and he wants to end the conversation ASAP (he seems to be yelling "STOP"). I didn't raise my voice and I wasn't aggressive like this, but this is the sort of attitude that I was displaying when offered those shoes.

War_lord
2017-12-14, 02:36 PM
Look guys, my personal views aside, I thought that I would create a depiction of toxic masculinity. I did not portray it as a quality to be admired. It was actually meant to make the dwarf look weak so that everyone else could feel morally superior to him. So it's actually the opposite of transphobia.

Is anyone still doubting this is trolling?

Keltest
2017-12-14, 02:54 PM
Is anyone still doubting this is trolling?

I mean, most people are talking around him anyway, so does it matter? The plausibility of trying to barter a given piece of medium or high quality loot in some small town somewhere is an interesting topic.

War_lord
2017-12-14, 03:13 PM
I mean, most people are talking around him anyway, so does it matter? The plausibility of trying to barter a given piece of medium or high quality loot in some small town somewhere is an interesting topic.

It's signal boosting him. I would suggest creating a new thread to discuss the issue of video game vendors (The guy who runs a vegetable stall in a Halfling village will happily buy a +2 knife of bloody shanking off you) vs realistic vendors (Some vendors won't do barter or purchasing, those that do will only accept things they can sell at a profit or use themselves.)

denthor
2017-12-14, 03:27 PM
As an aside, it has always been my personal theory that this exact situation is probably where the term "munchkin" to refer to a powergamer comes from. Character comes across a dead body and instead of roleplaying the situation their first instinct is to steal their expensive shoes.

Read your comment. Is the following way out of line?

Ultimate chick flick two women fighting over a pair of shoes?

That were taken off of a dead woman.

Did dwarf wish to represent the lollypop guild?

Follow the yellow brick road?