Alita: Battle Angel - yay or nay?

[Weimann]

So this happened. (https://youtu.be/aj8mN_7Apcw)

To be clear, this is my childhood up on that screen. Battle Angel Alita was one of the first mangas I read, and if my interest in Ghost in the Shell from last spring was academic at best, this strikes at the center of my heart. I don’t watch a movie in theatres every year, but this one is a certainty.

There’s the issue of the eyes. I personally actively like them: they make Alita look very similar to the source material, they are appropriate for the setting as she’s constantly getting called a “doll” and underestimated, and they of course serve to narratively make her look “fake” and plastic. But I can see why some would find it ugly. Fair enough.

I see this as an excuse to reread the manga and get hype, but I do wonder if this will be another Ghost in the Shell. Alita’s world is deep, but I do think Hollywood can focus on the coming of age aspect of her story without losing too much of that in the transition to the much more limited movie format. Ghost in the Shell was a seminal classic with philosophic undertones, while Battle Angel Alita is more direct. Also, it’s James Cameron, which isn’t an automatic win for me but at least it’s promising.

[tensai_oni]

Obligatory mention of THOSE EYES.

The trailer looks better than Ghost in the Shell. Mind you, I don't think the recent GitS adaptation was a bad movie (it was okay), only that it was a bad Ghost in the Shell movie. This looks much more faithful to the source material.

I am cautiously optimistic.

[GrayDeath]

So far it looks artificial, dirty and intense.

Ergo like Alita should, so: optimistic. :)

[Lacuna Caster]

I see this as an excuse to reread the manga and get hype, but I do wonder if this will be another Ghost in the Shell. Alita’s world is deep, but I do think Hollywood can focus on the coming of age aspect of her story without losing too much of that in the transition to the much more limited movie format. Ghost in the Shell was a seminal classic with philosophic undertones, while Battle Angel Alita is more direct. Also, it’s James Cameron, which isn’t an automatic win for me but at least it’s promising.
I remember Cameron saying (https://screenrant.com/james-cameron-battle-angel-alita/) that he saw the Avatar series as being more urgent, but I actually think Alita has a lot of sociopolitical subtext regarding economic divisions exacerbated by transhuman science, which don't think even GitS quite explored in the same way. It'd be a shame not to pick up on some of that. I always found the series most charming when it was wriggling in the muck and squalor of the desperately poor in a world with technologies that could theoretically solve their problems overnight.

Like Elysium, only not terribad. So yeah, I'm torn about whether the googly eyes are a sign of (A) consciously trying to represent the material faithfully or (B) glomming onto superficial aesthetics as a marketing ploy. We shall see.

[Brother Oni]

While Alita's eyes are disconcerting, it may be intentional to reinforce the fact that her body's not human. Not enough information in the trailer to really tell on what they're aiming for.

On the other hand, the Panzer Kunst martial arts looks spot on, in terms of both speed and brutality - Alita counter grabs the guy by his neck strut before slamming his head into the table.

[Metahuman1]

I like the idea of the eyes, Ill give them points for that.






I will still be nothing short of dumbstruck if I go into that theater and Cameron managed to get over himself enough to not make sure that I come out unable to see anything other then the color red, because it's Cameron and as far as I'm concerned he's been a blight on cinema for decades now.

[Anteros]

I get that the eye thing is intentional...but man does it look bad and distracting. I don't think I could get past that and enjoy the movie.

[BWR]

It's been a while since I read the manga but this is recognizably BAA, visually. I would have gotten that even without being told what it was (or accused this of plagiarism it it wasn't BAA). The eyes freak me out but that's probably intentional. Still better than chimeric mess that these sheep (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be4nbqC1e-c) have.

I'm cautiously optimistic, and Rodriguez can be a quite good director. Let's hope he knows how to handle a budget this big. Anyone want to comment on possible whitewashing of Ido Daisuke?

[Anteros]

Anyone want to comment on possible whitewashing of Ido Daisuke?

Is...is that character not supposed to be white? Because that character looks straight up Germanic. How do you "whitewash" a white skinned blonde man? And why would anyone care about it?

[GloatingSwine]

Anyone want to comment on possible whitewashing of Ido Daisuke?

You mean the blond white man from a culture where everyone is white being played by a brown haired white man?

The people making this criticism are generally people who don't know the source material.

[Mechalich]

I get that the eye thing is intentional...but man does it look bad and distracting. I don't think I could get past that and enjoy the movie.

Have to agree, especially considering that everyone else's face is normal, which makes Alita stand out as this bizarre digital creation in every clip. Which is something that wouldn't happen if this was say, a completely computer generated animation production and everyone was like that. It also raises weird questions as to why her face is different from everyone else's, which - and admittedly my memory of the source material is really vague - strikes me as completely missing the point.

There have been a number of other digital face/body renderings that have been put on screen recently, and none have been really considered a success, and many have been colossal wastes of money. Notably the whole mess with Superman's mustache. How much money did they spend to give Alita anime eyes? Ten million? Twenty? And how many better uses could a film like this have had for that money?

[Weimann]

There's an interview where the directors talk about the eyes. (https://youtu.be/hWgy6gAK9OA) Interestingly, instead of talking about them as a sign of artificiality, or even wanting to stay close to the canon appearance of Alita, they stressed the choice as an homage to the manga medium (and as a way of conveying emotion effectively). I'm personally more inclined to see them in the light of the particular source material (where they do have a place) than as a stylistic choice for manga adaptations in in general.

[Leewei]

I get that the eye thing is intentional...but man does it look bad and distracting. I don't think I could get past that and enjoy the movie.
I also agree with this. Certain CGI effects can make it hard to immerse yourself in a story. The uncanny valley factor here looks like it would make the movie very hard for me to enjoy.

[The New Bruceski]

Agreed that the eyes are distracting in a bad way, but everything else looks on POINT!

[Lacuna Caster]

I will still be nothing short of dumbstruck if I go into that theater and Cameron managed to get over himself enough to not make sure that I come out unable to see anything other then the color red, because it's Cameron and as far as I'm concerned he's been a blight on cinema for decades now.
Cameron is producing, not directing, but, uh... dare I ask why the hate?


On the other hand, the Panzer Kunst martial arts looks spot on, in terms of both speed and brutality - Alita counter grabs the guy by his neck strut before slamming his head into the table.
I thought the animation there was very jerky, to be honest.

I do like the attention-to-detail on the design of her arms, though, and I think Christoph Waltz is spot-on casting for Ido.

[Legato Endless]

I don't think the eye effect will be that distracting once I've gotten into the film proper, but it's hard to say. Mostly this reminds me of when the Giant changed up the art style so characters' hands became much more noticeable in their inhuman stylization. For a few strips that was glaringly distracting, and then it faded away and I don't really remember it except when I'm zooming in to spot something in a panel.

And yeah, looking at this from a interior perspective of the film world itself is probably missing the point. As an homage, it's an artistic decision to reflect the source material. A lot of things we transcribe in adaptions don't rest on any kind of internal logic. Whether that's a decision that does keep getting in the way for people watching the film is a much more solid concern.

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm cautiously optimistic, and Rodriguez can be a quite good director. Let's hope he knows how to handle a budget this big. Anyone want to comment on possible whitewashing of Ido Daisuke?
I like Rodriguez well enough, but his output has been... variable. Hey, there's always Sin City to measure against, right? Right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_City:_A_Dame_to_Kill_For#Critical_response)?

I'll confess that I generally file whitewashing concerns high on my list of First World Problems, but I gather there have been some complaints that Alita is being whitewashed, and... that actually raises all kinds of questions in my mind. (But she's a cyborg.) (There's no indication she's ethnically asian.) (But her name is Yoko.) (But Ido is an asian name too, and I thought we'd settled that he's probably caucasian?) (Isn't giving her huge goldfish eyes distinctly non-typically-asian-looking?) (But isn't that faithful to the comic?) (Wait, don't hordes of Korean women use plastic surgery to go for that exact look?) (Didn't this happen with GitS as well?) (If she's CGI, would hiring an asian actress even count?) (Is this the apogee of unrealistic fembot body standards and harbinger of the apocalypse?)

Help me. Please.

[BWR]

I meant that comment only partially seriously, thinking about the big stink about the whitewashing it GITS (which was effing stupid), and how it isn't really a big deal here because his ethnicity doesn't matter to the story in any way.

[Metahuman1]

Cameron is producing, not directing, but, uh... dare I ask why the hate?

The more recent work his name is attached too is, the more likely I find I am to be given outright political propaganda for Cameron's personal political bias's, and to be bludgeoned over the head with them, and to be given straw man versions of other political positions to levels that would not look out of place in a deliberate propaganda piece.

His older works aren't totally immune to this, buuuuuut, he's gotten a lot more stuck up about it as time has marched on. To the point were he seems incapable of controlling himself on the matter, and unwilling to put his name on work that doesn't have it.



This is particularly grating for me as I strongly disagree with many of his personal political positions.




Also, I really, REALLY did not like Titanic, or Avatar, and I find it Gauling that there in the top 10 most profitable movies ever at all, more so that they ever occupied the number 1 or 2 slots. (I'm not sure if they still do or not off the top of my head.)

[Legato Endless]

The more recent work his name is attached too is, the more likely I find I am to be given outright political propaganda for Cameron's personal political bias's, and to be bludgeoned over the head with them, and to be given straw man versions of other political positions to levels that would not look out of place in a deliberate propaganda piece.

I'm pretty sure Avatar was a deliberate propaganda piece.

On a nitpicky level, what's with the title change?

Battle Angel Alita rolled right off the tongue. If that's not good enough, Alita seems straightforward 2010s-esque. The colon subtitle Battle Angle just seems kind of schlocky.

[Brother Oni]

I thought the animation there was very jerky, to be honest.

Really? I thought it's pretty much spot on for the technique - the only jerkiness is intentional as she's redirecting his head (and hence mass) sideways into the table and there needs to be some semblance of obeying the laws of physics.

The pullback, deflect, step in and countergrab is perfectly smooth - if I were doing that technique, there would be a jerk as I transitioned from the throat/face punch (as I can't grab a real person's neck cables) to wrapping my hand around the back of his neck before driving his head into the table.


(But her name is Yoko.)

I believe the name she uses for most of the series is Gally (Alita in the English) and as far as I can remember, there's no mention of her ethnicity being of any importance (octopus lips aside).

[Weimann]

I was going to say, the two examples of panzer kunst we see in the trailer really pleased me. They looked just like I imagined in the manga: fast, powerful and with a focus on flowing, circular and spinning motions. I also think we've only seen early scenes so far; given how faithful the movie seems to want to be to the manga, we're likely to get to see Alita in her berzerker body, which should improve her combat abilities substantially.

[Lacuna Caster]

Also, I really, REALLY did not like Titanic, or Avatar, and I find it Gauling that there in the top 10 most profitable movies ever at all, more so that they ever occupied the number 1 or 2 slots. (I'm not sure if they still do or not off the top of my head.)
I incline to the view that pretty much all art is either political or confined to inane pleasantries, so that doesn't bother me per se. I'll concede that Avatar is an eco-liberal revenge-fantasy*, and there's plenty more in the pipeline, but isn't most of what he's done in the past twenty years been either documentaries or side-projects? (I mean, you can't really complain about Ghosts of the Abyss being propaganda for sea creatures. That's the whole point.)


Really? I thought it's pretty much spot on for the technique - the only jerkiness is intentional as she's redirecting his head (and hence mass) sideways into the table and there needs to be some semblance of obeying the laws of physics.
I can't really comment on the combat technique, but I mean more in the leadup to the grab itself- there's something weirdly aphysical or weightless about her movements. They might clean it up in later production, but I found it distracting.

Alita's origins aren't revealed until Mars Chronicle, but apparently she's a genetic clone (http://battleangel.wikia.com/wiki/Kagura_Dornburg#Trivia) of one Kagura Dornburg. So... mixed asian-germanic, possibly? Huh.

I should warn that Mars Chronicle is showing signs of franchise fatigue, but I like the idea of rounding off the series.

[Brother Oni]

I can't really comment on the combat technique, but I mean more in the leadup to the grab itself- there's something weirdly aphysical or weightless about her movements. They might clean it up in later production, but I found it distracting.

Oh I see what you mean. Personally I would attribute that to her robotic body - if you watch videos of hi-tech robots performing complex human actions, there's a certain inhuman smoothness to them (Asimo for example), but I can see why it looks weightless as something moving that smoothly and quickly would trigger an 'uncanny valley' type of response.
Interestingly enough, there's mention of a similar effect from 40K Space Marines in the various novels, where between the fully responsive nature of their battle armour and their training, they have an inhuman grace and power, triggering a level on inhuman awe on people not used to them.

That said, it also happens in animations where there's insufficient detail paid to the physics involved - off the top of my head, the Dead Fantasy series by the late Monty Oum is a good example of this.

In the end, whether you want to chalk it up to inhuman grace or poor animation is entirely up to you.



Alita's origins aren't revealed until Mars Chronicle, but apparently she's a genetic clone (http://battleangel.wikia.com/wiki/Kagura_Dornburg#Trivia) of one Kagura Dornburg. So... mixed asian-germanic, possibly? Huh.

I should warn that Mars Chronicle is showing signs of franchise fatigue, but I like the idea of rounding off the series.

Ah, I've only read the original series where it ended pretty neatly with Figure 4 meeting Alita again since the author became ill and wanted to end the series. I wasn't aware that ending got ret-conned with Last Order and the story continued on in Mars Chronicle.

[Blackhawk748]

I like Rodriguez well enough, but his output has been... variable. Hey, there's always Sin City to measure against, right? Right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_City:_A_Dame_to_Kill_For#Critical_response)?

I'll confess that I generally file whitewashing concerns high on my list of First World Problems, but I gather there have been some complaints that Alita is being whitewashed, and... that actually raises all kinds of questions in my mind. (But she's a cyborg.) (There's no indication she's ethnically asian.) (But her name is Yoko.) (But Ido is an asian name too, and I thought we'd settled that he's probably caucasian?) (Isn't giving her huge goldfish eyes distinctly non-typically-asian-looking?) (But isn't that faithful to the comic?) (Wait, don't hordes of Korean women use plastic surgery to go for that exact look?) (Didn't this happen with GitS as well?) (If she's CGI, would hiring an asian actress even count?) (Is this the apogee of unrealistic fembot body standards and harbinger of the apocalypse?)

Help me. Please.

*tosses bucket of water onto you* Don't go down that rabbit hole, just sit back and laugh at people who do.

For me, i've never read the manga, but i am intrigued by this. Need a better trailer though


I incline to the view that pretty much all art is either political or confined to inane pleasantries, so that doesn't bother me per se. I'll concede that Avatar is an eco-liberal revenge-fantasy*, and there's plenty more in the pipeline, but isn't most of what he's done in the past twenty years been either documentaries or side-projects? (I mean, you can't really complain about Ghosts of the Abyss being propaganda for sea creatures. That's the whole point.)

Politics are fine. Wedging open my mouth and backing up a cement truck of your political beliefs is hamfisted and cringy at best, rather disturbing at worst. Avatar is fine, if you shut your brain off and just watch giant blue people fight giant robots, if you think about it for any length of time the politics hit you like a crashing 747.

[Lacuna Caster]

Ah, I've only read the original series where it ended pretty neatly with Figure 4 meeting Alita again since the author became ill and wanted to end the series. I wasn't aware that ending got ret-conned with Last Order and the story continued on in Mars Chronicle.
Last Order is good but uneven. The individual sub-stories are decent-to-great in isolation and the setting is intriguing- I particularly liked Homme de Feu and Caerula Sanguis- but based on what I recall Alita herself was all over the place in terms of motivation and less than entirely likeable (to say nothing of her ungodly catgirl incarnation.)

I would say it's worth checking out, though. It does round off her relationships with Ido and Figure 4 a little less abruptly than the original, and the overall premise of the ZOTT provides a much more cohesive narrative scaffold for bridging the scrapyard and tiphares.


Politics are fine. Wedging open my mouth and backing up a cement truck of your political beliefs is hamfisted and cringy at best, rather disturbing at worst. Avatar is fine, if you shut your brain off and just watch giant blue people fight giant robots, if you think about it for any length of time the politics hit you like a crashing 747.
There are some obvious real-world analogues, sure, it's just that the message seems so unobjectionable to me. We could talk about the pros and cons of military culture, but I'm scratching my head to think of a reasonable argument for why amazonian copper mining operations should be allowed to exterminate indigenous peoples.

[Blackhawk748]

There are some obvious real-world analogues, sure, it's just that the message seems so unobjectionable to me. We could talk about the pros and cons of military culture, but I'm scratching my head to think of a reasonable argument for why amazonian copper mining operations should be allowed to exterminate indigenous peoples.

I dont really think anyone objects to your second part. What bothered me about the movie (once i decided to just think about it) was the portrayal of the military. Though that may have more to do with the fact that a rash of movies making the Military the Super Evil Bad Guys had come out around the same time and it was just starting to piss me off in general. Then Avatar does theres and it was just to much.

[Kantaki]

I dont really think anyone objects to your second part. What bothered me about the movie (once i decided to just think about it) was the portrayal of the military. Though that may have more to do with the fact that a rash of movies making the Military the Super Evil Bad Guys had come out around the same time and it was just starting to piss me off in general. Then Avatar does theres and it was just to much.

Weren't those guys less military and more private security of whatever corporation was in charge of the mission?
Ex-military maybe in most cases maybe, but for good reasons by my impression.

[Blackhawk748]

Weren't those guys less military and more private security of whatever corporation was in charge of the mission?
Ex-military maybe in most cases maybe, but for good reasons by my impression.

I know Avatar isnt the best hill to die on over this, but i do believe they where former military, and its the fact that they portray former military like that that bugs me. Everything we know about that CO was that he was in the military (or something similar) and that he wasnt kicked out or anything else, he just left. So someone who, by all evidence, simply retired from active duty to go into civilian security work is portrayed like he was is annoying at best, insulting at worst.

Really its more of me being annoyed at that particular Hollywood trend and it doesnt seem like they stopped it in recent years.

[thorgrim29]

I felt at the time like they were a crack on Blackwater and other PMCs more than anti-military bias (outside of the blatant Apocalypse now references) , they were in the news a lot back then. Still a terrible movie though, how Ferngully with furries and blue lights made so much money I'll probably never really understand...

Anyway, I vaguely remember reading Alita years ago, based on the trailer it looks similar to my recollection but it didn't really leave a mark either way

[Lacuna Caster]

Really its more of me being annoyed at that particular Hollywood trend and it doesnt seem like they stopped it in recent years.
One not-particularly-recent counter-example I can remember is The Iron Giant, where the director said in commentary that blaming the military would have been a cheap shot, and the real villain of the piece is the jingoistic, paranoid intelligence agent. (Of course, taking cues from jingoistic, paranoid intelligence agents is an entirely predictable result of joining the military, but I digress.)

I suppose there's always an argument to be made for nuance and balance, given that patent strawmen tend to irritate the other side to a degree that defeats the purpose. But on the other hand, the pentagon actually offers significant incentives (https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/exclusive-documents-expose-direct-us-military-intelligence-influence-on-1-800-movies-and-tv-shows-36433107c307) for positive depictions of the military- most prominently in, say, Man of Steel and the Transformers franchise. So I'm not certain the overall Hollywood trend is anti-military as such.


I actually very much enjoyed Avatar. I know it's not entirely original or even-handed, but the narrative was perfectly functional and the sheer level of craftsmanship was impressive. If Alita turns out to be of the same quality, I'll be quite happy with Mr. Rodriguez.

[BWR]

I actually very much enjoyed Avatar. I know it's not entirely original or even-handed, but the narrative was perfectly functional and the sheer level of craftsmanship was impressive. If Alita turns out to be of the same quality, I'll be quite happy with Mr. Rodriguez.

Considering you could put Avatar on mute and still come up with basically the same story and dialogue in your head, based entirely on visuals, I hope BAA is significantly better. Avatar was visually impressive and decidedly mediocre at best in every other respect.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I don't watch movies often, but this seems like something I might enjoy.


I actually very much enjoyed Avatar. I know it's not entirely original or even-handed, but the narrative was perfectly functional and the sheer level of craftsmanship was impressive. If Alita turns out to be of the same quality, I'll be quite happy with Mr. Rodriguez.

Avatar was made very well, and although I didn't enjoy it as much as the typical audience member did, I can see why so many people were taken by it. If this movie ends up on par with that, I'll be happy with it.

[Kitten Champion]

The thing about Cameron's movies isn't that they're beloved by critics or even that they're embraced by their audience exactly. The only area where he's remarkable in most respects is his innovations in special visual effects for the last 30+ years, he doesn't seem to want to invest into a movie unless he's doing something with it in terms of his method and technologies that's noteworthy.

What he does do is create the sense of his movies being an Event to participate in rather than just another movie. There's an ambitiousness to his films which is there even while still being highly accessible to foreign and domestic audiences. That deflates the intelligence of his movies certainly, but they're deflated in a precisely calculated sort of way rather than being genuinely dumb themselves.

As to Alita, it's been so long since I've watched it that I've mentally jumbled it with Armitage III in my head. I'll have to go back to it soon-ish.

I will say, I don't think this is a Ghost in the Shell situation. James Cameron can do a lot of things with his time at this point in his life, and he's not exactly a prolific movie-maker outside of his various documentaries. Investing himself in adapting a manga/anime from the 90's that only achieved modest popularity in the anime-watching niche audience of North America... I expect he cares about bringing out whatever he saw in Battle Angel Alita for all to see rather than just another adaptation made with the hopes of hitting that wall and sticking.

That doesn't mean it'll be good per say, but it does have my attention.

As to changing the title around, I strongly suspect its a consideration of search engine optimization.

[GloatingSwine]

As to changing the title around, I strongly suspect its a consideration of search engine optimization.

Also every other version has a different name so why not by this point...

[Lacuna Caster]

Considering you could put Avatar on mute and still come up with basically the same story and dialogue in your head, based entirely on visuals, I hope BAA is significantly better. Avatar was visually impressive and decidedly mediocre at best in every other respect.
I'd largely agree with Kitten Champion on this- BAA's story was good enough that I think all they have to with the narrative is not screw it up.


As to Alita, it's been so long since I've watched it that I've mentally jumbled it with Armitage III in my head. I'll have to go back to it soon-ish.
There's never been a substantial anime adaptation- just the fairly forgettable OVA. Though ironically, that was my intro to the franchise.

[t209]

Well, there's an old series called Dark Angel, which Cameron may have made it as a prototype to Alita since he didn't have the copyright.
I am not sure about the rating since Alita do have some gores, like a brain-eating cyborg and mutilations.

[BWR]

I'd largely agree with Kitten Champion on this- BAA's story was good enough that I think all they have to with the narrative is not screw it up.


That's what I'm worried about. Look at what happened to GITS. Rodriguez can probably do this right (Sin City is pretty faithful), but the studio and the producers may screw it up willy-nilly.

[GrayDeath]

Well, there's an old series called Dark Angel, which Cameron may have made it as a prototype to Alita since he didn't have the copyright.
I am not sure about the rating since Alita do have some gores, like a brain-eating cyborg and mutilations.


Ehm...aside from having a Female Lead and happening "Past Apocalypse", the 2 have absolutely NOTHING in common.

[GloatingSwine]

Well, there's an old series called Dark Angel, which Cameron may have made it as a prototype to Alita since he didn't have the copyright.
I am not sure about the rating since Alita do have some gores, like a brain-eating cyborg and mutilations.

I'm p. sure Cameron actually did have the rights to do Alita as far back as 2000. He bought the rights up not very long after Titanic.

[Kitten Champion]

There's never been a substantial anime adaptation- just the fairly forgettable OVA. Though ironically, that was my intro to the franchise.

Ah, that explains my fairly thin memory of it.


That's what I'm worried about. Look at what happened to GITS. Rodriguez can probably do this right (Sin City is pretty faithful), but the studio and the producers may screw it up willy-nilly.

Eh, GitS didn't have much talent behind it. Its director did nothing of note - Snow White and the Huntsman was not an accomplishment - and at least one of its writers is most known for the Transformers series. From the production side, having Avi and Ari Arad in charge was probably most of the reason the film was pushed into being like an American Superhero film rather than a geopolitical techno-thriller/police procedural in a cyberpunk future.

[Lacuna Caster]

Eh, GitS didn't much talent behind it. Its director did nothing of note - Snow White and the Huntsman was not an accomplishment - and at least one of its writers is most known for the Transformers series. From the production side, having Avi and Ari Arad in charge was probably most of the reason the film was pushed into being like an American Superhero film rather than a geopolitical techno-thriller/police procedural in a cyberpunk future.
Huh. I guess it actually turned out surprisingly well, all things considered.

It does raise the question of how do these films get tens-to-hundreds of millions of dollars thrown at a team without talent. Is talent really that rare, or is the industry just really bad at selecting for it?

[Blackhawk748]

Huh. I guess it actually turned out surprisingly well, all things considered.

It does raise the question of how do these films get tens-to-hundreds of millions of dollars thrown at a team without talent. Is talent really that rare, or is the industry just really bad at selecting for it?

Its the second one. Instead of picking someone who actually lieks the material in question, they often grab someone who is at best apathetic and let them do it. And thats how we get DOOM

[Kitten Champion]

Huh. I guess it actually turned out surprisingly well, all things considered.


Ya'know, yeah. I mean, I genuinely disliked the Ghost in the Shell movie as a GitS adaptation, as science fiction, as cyberpunk, and as a generic action movie - and I would need a lengthy essay-format response to cover my critique of all its faults - but objectively speaking it managed to be merely a forgettable and mostly mediocre movie rather than a historically awful one. That might actually be worse though, given a bad movie can garner interest for its failures whereas GitS is only notable as a discussion point surrounding future anime/manga adaptations, in much the same way people will remember the Assassin's Creed movie re:game adaptations rather than for the Assassin's Creed movie.

Incidently, the other lead writer did Street Kings and Spectral which are also formulaic and dumb.



It does raise the question of how do these films get tens-to-hundreds of millions of dollars thrown at a team without talent. Is talent really that rare, or is the industry just really bad at selecting for it?

For writers, I can see a studio executive seeing someone who wrote scripts which made as much money as Transformers movies did having studio attention, even if the material in no way fits their wheelhouse. I also understand that some have to do these smaller movies - which I guess GitS is at the end of the day - contractually to fill obligations for the bigger money titles even if they're poorly suited for it

Though there's been a stream of pretty obscure directors who've found themselves at the helm of gigantic Hollywood studio movies all of a sudden - several of the Marvel movies, Jurassic Park, Godzilla, Fantastic Four, etc. - which is probably symptomatic of studios trying to control as much as possible for themselves rather than falling into an auteur money sink.

In GitS case they just seemed to have a bodies on hand that have speculative fiction somewhere in their file, rather than living up to the material they just tried fitting it into the Superhero mold and hoped it worked.

I do have this doubt in the back of my head that, even if the GitS movie had lived up to its potential and I - and critics - loved it, whether it would still have bombed but for other reasons... and maybe the studio people had the same sentiment.

[The Fury]

So... also cautiously optimistic. I was actually stoked when I heard that Christoph Waltz would be playing Dr. Ido. Though Jennifer Connelly's appearance, (with the Tiphares mark on her head, no less!) has me wondering what her role will be-- if she's an acquaintance of Ido's, are we in for a retread of the old OVA series? For those not in the know, the OVA invented a character called Sherrin (no idea how it's spelled,) who's implied to be an old lover of Ido's that sort of filled Desty Nova's role from the manga. It was... OK.


Is...is that character not supposed to be white? Because that character looks straight up Germanic. How do you "whitewash" a white skinned blonde man? And why would anyone care about it?

Yeah, he's blond-haired and blue-eyed in color illustrations that Yukito Kishiro did of the character and in the OVA. Heck, his repair shop's sign is in German. I think it's fairly safe to say that Ido is at least German-ish.

[Lacuna Caster]

For writers, I can see a studio executive seeing someone who wrote scripts which made as much money as Transformers movies did having studio attention, even if the material in no way fits their wheelhouse. I also understand that some have to do these smaller movies - which I guess GitS is at the end of the day - contractually to fill obligations for the bigger money titles even if they're poorly suited for it.
Yeah, the Transformers movies in particular are... interesting in that regard. I have nothing useful to add to their critique that Lindsay Ellis hasn't covered (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRXI__Wixas) in minute and scrupulous detail, but from an economic perspective I can understand why they exist, and I know that Michael Bay must be doing something... well, not exactly right, but 'functional and adaptive' in the darwinian sense, let's say. Nobody is lining folks up at gunpoint and forcing them to see these movies over and over. Some fraction of the audience must be enjoying them.

I'm loathe to think that there's some kind of intrinsic tradeoff between 'enjoyed by the masses' and 'enjoyed by critics'- it seems the MCU and Pixar have been checking the right boxes for both fairly consistently, even if they tend to lapse into formula- but I suppose it's possible that mismatching directors and superficially-related material could lead to semi-regular disasters.

I will say for GitS that the writers didn't seem to be coming from a place of active contempt for the material, which you sometimes get a whiff of from Bayformers. They bowdlerised the premise and seemed to be tacking on references and callouts wherever they'd fit, but it's evident that they'd actually watched both movies and two seasons of SAC and didn't consciously detest it. (Of course, SAC and the movies don't really have a great deal in common, which might not have helped.)


So... also cautiously optimistic. I was actually stoked when I heard that Christoph Waltz would be playing Dr. Ido. Though Jennifer Connelly's appearance, (with the Tiphares mark on her head, no less!) has me wondering what her role will be-- if she's an acquaintance of Ido's, are we in for a retread of the old OVA series? For those not in the know, the OVA invented a character called Sherrin (no idea how it's spelled,) who's implied to be an old lover of Ido's that sort of filled Desty Nova's role from the manga. It was... OK.
Yeah, I'm curious about that as well. Nova might be a tricky character to adapt- he's got a sort of jokeresque Blue-and-Orange morality thing going on, with the flamboyant disregard for life you might expect from someone who knows exactly how far the human condition can be atomised and commoditised. I'm guessing that could be rather hit-and-miss with audiences. I'd hate to see him gone entirely, though.

[Kitten Champion]

Yeah, the Transformers movies in particular are... interesting in that regard. I have nothing useful to add to their critique that Lindsay Ellis hasn't covered (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRXI__Wixas) in minute and scrupulous detail, but from an economic perspective I can understand why they exist, and I know that Michael Bay must be doing something... well, not exactly right, but 'functional and adaptive' in the darwinian sense, let's say. Nobody is lining folks up at gunpoint and forcing them to see these movies over and over. Some fraction of the audience must be enjoying them.

I'm loathe to think that there's some kind of intrinsic tradeoff between 'enjoyed by the masses' and 'enjoyed by critics'- it seems the MCU and Pixar have been checking the right boxes for both fairly consistently, even if they tend to lapse into formula- but I suppose it's possible that mismatching directors and superficially-related material could lead to semi-regular disasters.

I will say for GitS that the writers didn't seem to be coming from a place of active contempt for the material, which you sometimes get a whiff of from Bayformers. They bowdlerised the premise and seemed to be tacking on references and callouts wherever they'd fit, but it's evident that they'd actually watched both movies and two seasons of SAC and didn't consciously detest it. (Of course, SAC and the movies don't really have a great deal in common, which might not have helped.)


If I were to describe Ghost in the Shell (2017} it would be "a thin cliched Scifi script designed to thread together evocative scenes and images from the Ghost in the Shell movie and anime but without any of the sophistication that brought international interest to the franchise in the first place". I believe that's pretty much what they intended going in, GitS simplified for the general audiences with fan-service "I remember that" shots for the benefit of existing fans. It's just, without the depth underlying it Ghost in the Shell (2017) is just imagery. What's more, imagery you've mostly scene before in Live Action because of how influential GitS was in its particular niche, like with The Matrix. Hell, it's like 90% a Robocop ripoff, but without being about anything or the darkly humourous satire.

Though for GitS to be as bad as Transformers they'd turn Section 9 into background characters for their own OCs who'd occupy most of the screen time as they'd have the ludicrously plot-important *insert noun* McGuffin, there'd be plenty of mildly nauseous comic relief, and become surprisingly convoluted yet stupid at the same time. GitS at least has the right tone, focuses on material - adjacent, at least - to what its adapting, and is pretty straightforward in its script. It also doesn't drag on for an additional hour for no particular reason.

God, Transformer movies are awful.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, I'm curious about that as well. Nova might be a tricky character to adapt- he's got a sort of jokeresque Blue-and-Orange morality thing going on, with the flamboyant disregard for life you might expect from someone who knows exactly how far the human condition can be atomised and commoditised. I'm guessing that could be rather hit-and-miss with audiences. I'd hate to see him gone entirely, though.

Desty Nova really isn't all that vital to the first two arcs anyway. He's in what, one frame of a flashback in book 1 and isn't even named just shown. And combining the first two arcs will almost certainly mean, as it did in the OVA, downplaying Makaku anyway.



God, Transformer movies are awful.

The only acceptable way to experience a Transformers movie is via Mark Kermode reviewing it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NbfIApmJiM

[Lacuna Caster]

GitS simplified for the general audiences with fan-service "I remember that" shots for the benefit of existing fans. It's just, without the depth underlying it Ghost in the Shell (2017) is just imagery. What's more, imagery you've mostly seen before in Live Action because of how influential GitS was in its particular niche, like with The Matrix. Hell, it's like 90% a Robocop ripoff, but without being about anything or the darkly humorous satire.
That's... a pretty good summary, yeah. (I actually didn't spot the robocop connection before, but you're right- it's nearly beat-for-beat identical.)

I've been trying to analyse why it felt empty, though, and I can't quite seem put my finger on it. I mean, in principle there's nothing wrong with the premise- "subject of government experiment faces increasing resistance uncovering corruption and conspiracy" seems like it should work fine, at least if you got the unreflective waffle about darwinian transhumanism out of the way. It's not like I get bored rewatching robocop. Maybe the combat scenes oscillate too much between 'extreme peril' and 'no she's fine'? It does seem bizarre that her response to an APB on her ass is to go scuba diving, for example.

Did Kuze actually murder people in the anime series?


Desty Nova really isn't all that vital to the first two arcs anyway. He's in what, one frame of a flashback in book 1 and isn't even named just shown. And combining the first two arcs will almost certainly mean, as it did in the OVA, downplaying Makaku anyway.
Fair point about Nova, but I'll be very, very disappointed if they boil Makaku down to a generic hulking bruiser. Take away sympathy for the devil and the point is lost.

[Lacuna Caster]

Oh, it just occurred to me: Dr. Nova is basically a slight permutation of Rick Sanchez. I knew he felt familiar.

[The Fury]

Oh, it just occurred to me: Dr. Nova is basically a slight permutation of Rick Sanchez. I knew he felt familiar.

Sort of. They both got a little too close to a universal reality that the multi-verse is so vast that nothing inside it matters. Nova decided to push back and empower dangerous psychotics to change reality. Rick Sanchez decided to start carrying a hip flask.

I see the similarity though, it's a close enough comparison that it might actually be a good thing if Nova doesn't appear in any Alita movies. Lest the internet explode with whining about James Cameron putting a Rick Sanchez ripoff (Rickoff?) in his movie.

For my own part, Desty Nova always reminded me of The Joker to the point that I imagine him sounding like Mark Hamill's version. I keep thinking his "Kya-ha-ha-ha" laugh must sound something like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm_GPkOfVKI).

[Kitten Champion]

That's... a pretty good summary, yeah. (I actually didn't spot the robocop connection before, but you're right- it's nearly beat-for-beat identical.)

I've been trying to analyse why it felt empty, though, and I can't quite seem put my finger on it. I mean, in principle there's nothing wrong with the premise- "subject of government experiment faces increasing resistance uncovering corruption and conspiracy" seems like it should work fine, at least if you got the unreflective waffle about darwinian transhumanism out of the way. It's not like I get bored rewatching robocop. Maybe the combat scenes oscillate too much between 'extreme peril' and 'no she's fine'? It does seem bizarre that her response to an APB on her ass is to go scuba diving, for example.

Most of its issues stem from the whitewashing. I know, people out there are rolling their eyes at the SJW, but it's what the whitewashing entailed for the script. The protagonist doesn't have an identity - the lifetime of subjective experience of being a cybernetic life-form, a woman, a Japanese citizen, a friend/comrade/subordinate with years of history predating her interactions in the story, a soldier, a veteran of foreign wars, police officer (or agent for the government in a similar capacity if you want), and everything else that encapsulated Motoko Kusanagi - to become a Tabula Rasa pseudo-superhero character with little discernible personality.

With Robocop, you get to experience Alex Murphy's life for long enough to earn pathos for his change, the implementation of his cybernetics and brainwashing are horrifying and his dehumanization into becoming a literal product for a giant corporation has emotional weight. With Mira Killian, she begins as transformed Robocop - one that looks like one of the most aesthetically perfect actors around rather than a walking humanoid tank - and we're told later about her transition from being this unknown Japanese woman called Motoko Kusanagi. In order to maintain the... revelation - if you want to call it that - of Killian's true identity, we're only allowed a tiny glimpse of Motoko herself whose an entirely different character in this universe for moments near the end and Johansson has to act blandly mystified with most of her character-time between action scenes until she was allowed to emote near the end.

There's also the confusing issue of Robocop doesn't work in the Ghost in the Shell universe. Why? Because cybernetics are ubiquitous in Ghost in the Shell, few people in-setting don't have some technological integration into their physiology in a major way. Motoko is special largely because she's a top-flight operator of her own cybernetic body from both her extensive time embodied in one and natural skill, her skill as an expert hacker/cracker overall, and her decades of military/police experience, not because she's an android in particularly -- as opposed to Robocop where Murphy's a unique presence in-universe and his enemies are mostly fleshy humans who he can tank through. GitS world also has a hegemonic transhumanist culture as a consequence, with people who exists outside that norm being problematic to their social order in various ways. The ethics and law of their world recognizes your humanity through the existence of your Ghost, it's a major point repeatedly mentioned by characters in various conversations and debates throughout the manga/anime because it sets up the ontological line of what they define themselves for when that gets put in doubt through circumstances like the Puppet Master. It's also mentioned in the 2017 movie, as to explain the title if nothing else... but it doesn't actually qualify why its significant in any way. Unlike Robocop, With GitS manga/anime-logic, treating Mira Killian like Frankenstein's Creature doesn't make any sense. Except that for the '17 movie it kind of fits the superhero mold of a dramatic backstory that's simple to encapsulate into a scene or two and as a justification for why the Evil Corporation is indifferent to being Evil. It also makes no sense whatsoever to put your successful prototype of illegal and highly unethical cybernetic experiments into the heart of the highly efficient anti-cyber-crime police organization designed specifically to investigate and arrest people doing exactly that kind of thing, except Robocop did it with the DPD. They didn't even give her Robocop's protocols to control her, they just sort of hoped it wouldn't be noticed.



Did Kuze actually murder people in the anime series?

Don't believe so, haven't watched 2nd GiG in a while. Though movie Kuze is a mashup of various antagonists who have. so it doesn't matter.

[Lacuna Caster]

I see the similarity though, it's a close enough comparison that it might actually be a good thing if Nova doesn't appear in any Alita movies. Lest the internet explode with whining about James Cameron putting a Rick Sanchez ripoff (Rickoff?) in his movie.

For my own part, Desty Nova always reminded me of The Joker to the point that I imagine him sounding like Mark Hamill's version. I keep thinking his "Kya-ha-ha-ha" laugh must sound something like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm_GPkOfVKI).
I think it's scientifically established that Rick and Morty fans are empirically the worst people (https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/oct/04/i-loathe-these-people-rick-and-morty-and-the-brilliant-backlash-against-tvs-bad-fans).

I'd have to read through the series again, but I don't know if one could easily excise Nova without leaving vast gaps in the both the causal logic and existential themes of the larger story. R&M may have done techno-nihilism to death, but it's not an invalid point to raise if you're dealing with crazy future science.


There's also the confusing issue of Robocop doesn't work in the Ghost in the Shell universe. Why? Because cybernetics are ubiquitous in Ghost in the Shell, few people in-setting don't have some technological integration into their physiology in a major way. Motoko is special largely because she's a top-flight operator of her own cybernetic body from both her extensive time embodied in one and natural skill, her skill as an expert hacker/cracker overall, and her decades of military/police experience, not because she's an android in particular- as opposed to Robocop where Murphy's a unique presence in-universe and his enemies are mostly fleshy humans who he can tank through.
Yeah. I grokked pretty much immediately that making Mira into a unique snowflake ran completely counter to the original, where all her anxieties stem from how her body is mass-produced and her memories are fungible, but I didn't notice the extent to which cyberisation is actually depicted as normalised and ubiquitous even within the same movie, so it's a broken premise from the start.

I think the whitewashing is absolutely symptomatic of the industry problems you were talking about earlier, but in principle one could translate Motoko to US-equivalent career backgrounds if the writers had wanted to give her some depth. But you're absolutely right about the differences in pacing and shortage of pathos, now that you mention it.

I'm in the rare position where I can't find anything to really disagree with in what you're saying, and you said quite a bit, so, uh... excellent dissection. I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter?

[Brother Oni]

Most of its issues stem from the whitewashing. I know, people out there are rolling their eyes at the SJW, but it's what the whitewashing entailed for the script. The protagonist doesn't have an identity - the lifetime of subjective experience of being a cybernetic life-form, a woman, a Japanese citizen, a friend/comrade/subordinate with years of history predating her interactions in the story, a soldier, a veteran of foreign wars, police officer (or agent for the government in a similar capacity if you want), and everything else that encapsulated Motoko Kusanagi - to become a Tabula Rasa pseudo-superhero character with little discernible personality.

There's a reference hidden in the original Japanese manga regarding Motoko Kusangai's potentially mass produced origins. As written, Motoko (素子) means 'plain, unadorned child', while Kusanagi is the name of a legendary Japanese weapon, much like Excalibur in the west, thus 'plain weapon' is one interpretation of her name.
However, depending on how you read the kanji, I believe you can get 'circuit board', implying that she is an artificial weapon.


Motoko is special largely because she's a top-flight operator of her own cybernetic body from both her extensive time embodied in one and natural skill, her skill as an expert hacker/cracker overall, and her decades of military/police experience, not because she's an android in particular...

Again from the manga, some of her special-ness is due to her body. As her Section 9 body is military grade technology, her skin sensor density (ie sensors per cm2) is far beyong the capabilities of commercial gear.
Motoko takes advantage of this in a memorable scene demonstrating her illegal sideline in making electronically simulated porn (and confusing the hell out of Batou as he makes a mind link to Motoko while she's recording it, resulting in him receiving sensory signals for organs he doesn't have).

Aside from this, I'm fairly sure her body's physical capabilities are beyond commercial grade bodies (in the SAC series, she demonstrates by escaping her tail by leaping between two skyscrapers), not to mention her wireless bandwidth capacity.

[Kitten Champion]

There's a reference hidden in the original Japanese manga regarding Motoko Kusangai's potentially mass produced origins. As written, Motoko (素子) means 'plain, unadorned child', while Kusanagi is the name of a legendary Japanese weapon, much like Excalibur in the west, thus 'plain weapon' is one interpretation of her name.
However, depending on how you read the kanji, I believe you can get 'circuit board', implying that she is an artificial weapon.

Isn't that a name she chose for herself? I don't believe Motoko Kusanagi is her given name anymore than Batou is his.



Again from the manga, some of her special-ness is due to her body. As her Section 9 body is military grade technology, her skin sensor density (ie sensors per cm2) is far beyong the capabilities of commercial gear.
Motoko takes advantage of this in a memorable scene demonstrating her illegal sideline in making electronically simulated porn (and confusing the hell out of Batou as he makes a mind link to Motoko while she's recording it, resulting in him receiving sensory signals for organs he doesn't have).

Aside from this, I'm fairly sure her body's physical capabilities are beyond commercial grade bodies (in the SAC series, she demonstrates by escaping her tail by leaping between two skyscrapers), not to mention her wireless bandwidth capacity.

Oh, no question her body is well-above commercial standards, but she exists in a netherworld where above commercial standard is generally expected and must be actively anticipated just to survive. She routinely combats criminals/terrorists with cybernetics that wipe the floor with what the respectable citizens use, though admittedly Section 9 is pretty cutting edge compared to most. Motoko's hi-spec android body is a consequence of having led the life she's lived and the abilities she's portrayed possessing and not the other way around.

It's like, if you rolled through your neighborhood with a Abrams tank you could easily crush everything in your path with little skill. However, take that same tank out to a war-zone with other armored vehicles - each with trained soldiers at the controls - and your advantage is gone.

[Manga Shoggoth]

... I have nothing useful to add to their critique that Lindsay Ellis hasn't covered (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRXI__Wixas) in minute and scrupulous detail...

That was a very interesting hour and a half - thank you for linking that.

[The Fury]

I think it's scientifically established that Rick and Morty fans are empirically the worst people (https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/oct/04/i-loathe-these-people-rick-and-morty-and-the-brilliant-backlash-against-tvs-bad-fans).

I'd have to read through the series again, but I don't know if one could easily excise Nova without leaving vast gaps in the both the causal logic and existential themes of the larger story. R&M may have done techno-nihilism to death, but it's not an invalid point to raise if you're dealing with crazy future science.


The movie looks like it's covering the first two volumes, and like it was mentioned Desty Nova was only in one scene. He appears in flashback during the Motorball arc and finally becomes a serious threat during the... fifth volume, I think? I mean, the call on whether or not Nova will be in these movies can be a while out, and that's assuming that future movies will be greenlit.

Rick and Morty and Alita do have some philosophical similarities, though I think they're mainly surface ones, and yeah. Not that I expect that'll prevent thousands of twits from whining on Reddit or at least one Rick cosplayer hassling whoever's at the ticket window.

[Lacuna Caster]

Oh, no question her body is well-above commercial standards, but she exists in a netherworld where above commercial standard is generally expected and must be actively anticipated just to survive. She routinely combats criminals/terrorists with cybernetics that wipe the floor with what the respectable citizens use, though admittedly Section 9 is pretty cutting edge compared to most. Motoko's hi-spec android body is a consequence of having led the life she's lived and the abilities she's portrayed possessing and not the other way around.
Yeah. You could even say she's more similar to a fighter jet pilot than a tank driver, in terms of how picky they are about letting someone use that hardware. She grew into the skills before she grew into the outfit.


That was a very interesting hour and a half - thank you for linking that.
Cool. Glad you enjoyed it.


The movie looks like it's covering the first two volumes, and like it was mentioned Desty Nova was only in one scene. He appears in flashback during the Motorball arc and finally becomes a serious threat during the... fifth volume, I think? I mean, the call on whether or not Nova will be in these movies can be a while out, and that's assuming that future movies will be greenlit.
Yeah, that's fair. I just wonder what Jennifer Connolly is supposed to be doing then.

R&M is definitely about very different things from BAA- the former seems to be drifting into a kind of Epicurean philosophy, in the sense of 'everything is material, but don't panic, we can still have sustainable pro-social pleasure.' Alita's more focused on self-discovery and the struggle to excel, almost dragonball-style. My point is just that Nova is about similar things, and has a similar quasi-cautionary function.

To be honest, I probably count as a Rick and Morty fan.

[Brother Oni]

Isn't that a name she chose for herself? I don't believe Motoko Kusanagi is her given name anymore than Batou is his.

Depends on the continuity - in the SAC, it's fairly certain that's her real name (and given the fact that she was one of the very first child full body cyborgs, her name's probably a matter of public record).
The manga barely scratches her background and her origins remain as much a mystery at the end of the series as the beginning.


Motoko's hi-spec android body is a consequence of having led the life she's lived and the abilities she's portrayed possessing and not the other way around.

One interesting point is that she is effectively trapped in Section 9 as long as she wants to keep that high spec body. That level of cutting tech requires constant maintenance and diagnostics, not to mention the security clearance.

Using your Abrams example, tank drivers don't get to take their tanks home with them when they EAS out (well unless you're Arnold Schwarzenegger (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1580181/Arnie-gets-Austrian-army-tank-back.html))


Yeah, that's fair. I just wonder what Jennifer Connolly is supposed to be doing then.

The film could be mixing up elements of the manga and OAV together, but I hope Jennifer Connolly's character doesn't end up like Chiren from the OAVs.

[The Fury]

R&M is definitely about very different things from BAA- the former seems to be drifting into a kind of Epicurean philosophy, in the sense of 'everything is material, but don't panic, we can still have sustainable pro-social pleasure.' Alita's more focused on self-discovery and the struggle to excel, almost dragonball-style. My point is just that Nova is about similar things, and has a similar quasi-cautionary function.


Oh sure. That's what I mean by there being similarities between the two, but they're superficial ones. Once you scratch the surface, you really start to notice the differences between the two series. Indeed, there's quite a few differences that Nova and Rick have as well. The biggest among them is that Rick is a severely dysfunctional person, while Nova is a monster.



To be honest, I probably count as a Rick and Morty fan.


...Yeah, me too.



The film could be mixing up elements of the manga and OAV together, but I hope Jennifer Connolly's character doesn't end up like Chiren from the OAVs.

You mean characterization-wise? Or do you mean... Having her be cut up for organ replacements and having her body parts preserved in jars of fluid?

If the former, I'd agree that her characterization was... eh... Not exactly bad but not really anything special either. If the latter... yeah, that's an awful way for anyone to go. Damn, Battle Angel is a brutal series.

[Brother Oni]

If the former, I'd agree that her characterization was... eh... Not exactly bad but not really anything special either. If the latter... yeah, that's an awful way for anyone to go. Damn, Battle Angel is a brutal series.

I think her characterisation was all right and her motivations understandable (it was kinda obvious in her 'lie back and think of Tipares' scene), it's just that there wasn't enough time in the OAVs to flesh out another character; Ido, Alita, Hugo and the other bounty hunter made it busy enough already.

But yes, definitely the latter:

If anything it's worse - she was harvested so that the bad guy could meet his monthly quota of organs to send up to Tipares. It's the banal, matter of fact monotony that gets me - she's nothing special, just another piece of meat (although more literally than usual).

[Lacuna Caster]

Oh sure. That's what I mean by there being similarities between the two, but they're superficial ones. Once you scratch the surface, you really start to notice the differences between the two series. Indeed, there's quite a few differences that Nova and Rick have as well. The biggest among them is that Rick is a severely dysfunctional person, while Nova is a monster.
I'll grant that Nova is more consistently detached and amoral, and there doesn't appear to be much obvious rhyme or reason to his experiments. But to be fair, I don't remember he ever doomed billions out of, say, momentary pique or sheer laziness.

I mean, jeez, that episode where everyone on earth goes Cronenberg? Has Rick never heard of things like 'controlled testing' or 'quarantine protocol'?

"Experimental controls are for *******, Morty. Hold this centrifuge."


If the former, I'd agree that her characterization was... eh... Not exactly bad but not really anything special either. If the latter... yeah, that's an awful way for anyone to go. Damn, Battle Angel is a brutal series.
Agreed.

[The Fury]

I think her characterisation was all right and her motivations understandable (it was kinda obvious in her 'lie back and think of Tipares' scene), it's just that there wasn't enough time in the OAVs to flesh out another character; Ido, Alita, Hugo and the other bounty hunter made it busy enough already.

But yes, definitely the latter:

If anything it's worse - she was harvested so that the bad guy could meet his monthly quota of organs to send up to Tipares. It's the banal, matter of fact monotony that gets me - she's nothing special, just another piece of meat (although more literally than usual).

I admit that she's a character that I'm sort of on the fence about. Her addition to the OVA didn't add much, but it didn't really take anything away either. By the way, which other bounty hunter do you mean? The one that nearly killed Hugo and got hit by lightning? He didn't have a very solid characterization. Though I guess Zapan made a couple appearances, he was mostly a cameo though.


I'll grant that Nova is more consistently detached and amoral, and there doesn't appear to be much obvious rhyme or reason to his experiments. But to be fair, I don't remember he ever doomed billions out of, say, momentary pique or sheer laziness.

I mean, jeez, that episode where everyone on earth goes Cronenberg? Has Rick never heard of things like 'controlled testing' or 'quarantine protocol'?

"Experimental controls are for *******, Morty. Hold this centrifuge."


I would argue that the only reason Nova hasn't done anything like that is because he's not able. If Nova could invent something that would inflict body-horror on a world-wide scale and could jump to an alternate dimension afterward, I'm fairly certain he would. Even if his victims don't number in the billions, it would still be a pretty high number. There's the people he experimented on in the Scrapyard, the POWs The Barjack turned over to him, and then there's the time in Last Order he spread mass hysteria in Tiphares with a really gross live TV stunt. If you count him as indirectly responsible for what Makaku, Zapan and Den did, he's even worse.


Just because of the science fiction parody nature of his show, Rick is working with a lot more dangerous stuff. While drunk. Seriously, I'm pretty sure Rick's got stuff more dangerous than the Berserker Body in his junk drawer.

[Lacuna Caster]

I would argue that the only reason Nova hasn't done anything like that is because he's not able. If Nova could invent something that would inflict body-horror on a world-wide scale and could jump to an alternate dimension afterward, I'm fairly certain he would. Even if his victims don't number in the billions, it would still be a pretty high number. There's the people he experimented on in the Scrapyard, the POWs The Barjack turned over to him, and then there's the time in Last Order he spread mass hysteria in Tiphares with a really gross live TV stunt. If you count him as indirectly responsible for what Makaku, Zapan and Den did, he's even worse.


Just because of the science fiction parody nature of his show, Rick is working with a lot more dangerous stuff. While drunk. Seriously, I'm pretty sure Rick's got stuff more dangerous than the Berserker Body in his junk drawer.
I'm gonna have to reread Alita from the beginning- my memory of a lot of this is fuzzy. (I do recall the stunts he got up to in Tiphares were pretty bad, though, especially given that clone seemed like a relatively benign version at first.)

I suppose if you gauge him relative to the scope of the setting, Rick is less destructive, but only because the scope of the setting is basically infinite. People have this weird habit of looking at his occasionally less-than-maximally-abusive treatment of immediate relatives and somehow concluding this makes up for, e.g, literally destroying an entire universe.

[Demica Fatali]

I'm super excited, because it was one of the first animes I fell in love with... and yet I'm not sure I can watch it in live action.

It's just the dog scene, even if its super CG, not sure I can watch what _looks_ like a real dog get shredded. But its such an important character point in the story that I can't see how they'd possibly avoid it either.

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm super excited, because it was one of the first animes I fell in love with... and yet I'm not sure I can watch it in live action.

It's just the dog scene, even if its super CG, not sure I can watch what _looks_ like a real dog get shredded. But its such an important character point in the story that I can't see how they'd possibly avoid it either.
When does that happen again? Gods, my memory is terrible.

As a minor update, it appears (http://comicbook.com/anime/2018/01/10/alita-battle-angel-japanese-trailer-new-title/) that they're sticking with the western title and names for the Japanese release, which seems a little presumptuous. I guess the creator seems happy so far, though?

[SpiderSilkWings]

Oh, wow. This wasn't the first manga I read, but it was close, and now I want to go back and read it. I don't know what to expect, but from the trailer, I'm willing to be optimistic.

[The Fury]

When does that happen again? Gods, my memory is terrible.

As a minor update, it appears (http://comicbook.com/anime/2018/01/10/alita-battle-angel-japanese-trailer-new-title/) that they're sticking with the western title and names for the Japanese release, which seems a little presumptuous. I guess the creator seems happy so far, though?

That happens in the anime. Makaku Greweichka uses his Grind Cutters to kill the dog, (one that looks like Duke Fang from the manga but isn't explicitly named.) In the manga the dog isn't shredded and only dies off-panel some years later.