Voluntary Falling

[Laserlight]

The party's airship is at 500ft altitude, I have Fly on myself, and someone gets knocked overboard. He falls at 500ft in one turn and hits the ground, which does not kill him but puts him in death saves. I want to get there as soon as possible to patch him up. If I use Fly for my move and Dash, presumably I move 120ft, which means it takes me 4 turns to get to him (or within 20ft, close enough). Is that my limit, or can I simply fall, and then use my Fly to brake to a stop before I hit? I'm not talking about dropping concentration and recasting Fly again, I'm talking about temporarily suspending the spell I already have. How would you rule it?

[Naanomi]

XGtE says a flying creature can use half its move to stop falling as it ‘stands from prone’ so... drop to prone voluntarily and then ‘recover’ mid-fall?

[lunaticfringe]

I'd allow you to fall. You have a fly speed, it is your choice as to whether you use it or not. Fly doesn't equal weightless or AutoHover.

[Tanarii]

XGtE says a flying creature can use half its move to stop falling as it ‘stands from prone’ so... drop to prone voluntarily and then ‘recover’ mid-fall?
I thought creature under the effect of magical flight didn't fall if they went prone?

[Naanomi]

I thought creature under the effect of magical flight didn't fall if they went prone?
That... appears to be true. I’d still allow it probably

[Tanarii]

That... appears to be true. I’d still allow it probably
It implies that Fly does indeed make you auto-hover. Doesnt require it though. (I checked the Xanathar's section in this just now and it doesn't have anything about intentionally falling.)

Maybe ... a Dex check to avoid going splat? Set the difficulty based on how far above the ground the character wants to end movement. Maybe even require an action for this special maneuver, if actions are relevant?

[Hyde]

I'd probably... disallow it for the fly spell.

I could be convinced otherwise, but since the magic simply keeps you aloft and isn't really designed to be overridden like that, it would take dismissing it to fall.

[Naanomi]

Maybe ... a Dex check to avoid going splat? Set the difficulty based on how far above the ground the character wants to end movement. Maybe even require an action for this special maneuver, if actions are relevant?
I thought about an acrobatics check (aerobatics?) for that purpose as well

[Khrysaes]

If they fly by wings a la arrakoccra, a STR or athletics check perhaps? As they have to arrest momentum via back muscles

[Potato_Priest]

I’d say that you could do it, but it’d be hard. After all, it isn’t hitting the ground that kills you, it’s the sudden decelleration. So you’d have to use the flight spell as a sort of air break to avoid just getting killed by your own spell if you turned it off completely and then on again 400 feet below.

[LeonBH]

I don't have an issue with this. After all, in doing this, you are:

1) Saving your friend
2) Removing yourself from the fight
3) Letting the airship get away

That 500ft you just fell is 500ft you'll have to fly back up to. If you don't plan on re-casting Fly, you're moving at half speed as you carry your fallen ally with you back to the airship. And in the meantime, it's moving away from you.

[Tanarii]

After all, it isn’t hitting the ground that kills you, it’s the sudden decelleration.
Pretty sure it's the hitting the ground part that does most of the killing. :smallamused:

[Potato_Priest]

Pretty sure it's the hitting the ground part that does most of the killing. :smallamused:

Well, the hitting the ground causes the decelleration. If you were to take a dead stop in midair it'd be the same effect, which is what I'm imagining from someone "turning off" the fly spell and then turning it back on.

[Tanarii]

Well, the hitting the ground causes the decelleration. If you were to take a dead stop in midair it'd be the same effect, which is what I'm imagining from someone "turning off" the fly spell and then turning it back on.
Hitting ground does some pancaking and splattering too. Not disagreeing that sudden deceleration isn't bad normally. But if it's evenly applied to the entire body equally, at a cellular or even atomic scale, would it actually cause a problem? Normally that's not possible, but we're talking magic.

[Potato_Priest]

Hitting ground does some pancaking and splattering too. Not disagreeing that sudden deceleration isn't bad normally. But if it's evenly applied to the entire body equally, at a cellular or even atomic scale, would it actually cause a problem? Normally that's not possible, but we're talking magic.

That is a very interesting question, and since I'm no physicist, I don't feel very equipped to address things of that low scale, where my basic high school newtonian stuff starts to break down. It's certainly conceivable (to me at least) that that spread out like that a deceleration could be mostly harmless, though.

[Tanarii]

I'm no physicistI was, which is why it occurred to me. But that was twenty years ago, so I don't know the answer.

Anyone here a PhD in rocket science and a M.D. to boot?

[Hyde]

I was, which is why it occurred to me. But that was twenty years ago, so I don't know the answer.

Anyone here a PhD in rocket science and a M.D. to boot?

If every cell and every atom in the creature was "decelerated" at the same time/evenly/etc, you're basically describing the sci fi "inertial dampers" (though they usually call them dampeners, and I don't know what benefit there it to be had from making inertia moist) and yeah, they wouldn't even perceive it as acceleration. Or deceleration. which isn't a thing but I understand its illustrative purposes.

[snacksmoto]

I'd rule it that you can voluntarily have the fly spell affect you less during the duration if you sustain concentration because I'd lean towards fun/story. I see it as using Fly to control the acceleration of the fall. You wouldn't be able to maneuver as you fall without slowing down to the regular Fly movement. My ruling on success would depend on exactly how close you want to cut your margin of error.

If you want to fall/recover for one round and begin patching him up on the second round, then you're cutting your margin of error to a sliver. You'd be timing against gut feeling with no means of accurate measurement as you fall. I'd probably have it a roll vs Int or Wis, whichever is higher, at disadvantage to time it well enough for a rather heavy landing. Some automatic fall damage, lessened due to it being a controlled fall. Not sure how much off the top of my head. All movement is automatically used up. Automatically prone. Failure would be a 50/50 chance of pulling up too early or too late. Automatic concentration check to continue sustaining Fly, if you've landed. If you've failed the roll and the 50/50 is that you've pulled up too early then you've still got more distance to go before you land. You'll still take some controlled fall damage in the second round since you've probably not overcome the fall acceleration. All movement used up in the second round towards controlling the acceleration of the controlled fall.

If you want to fall/recover for two rounds and begin patching him up on the third round, then you've got a larger margin of error. Probably a roll vs Int or Wis, whichever is higher, not rolled with disadvantage. I'd rule a success as a heavy landing on the second round with your breath momentarily knocked out. All movement automatically used up. Automatic concentration check to continue sustaining Fly. Automatic prone. Recovery and Action on the third round. A failure would have the same 50/50 roll. Pull up too late and you'll take fall damage. Pull up too early and you still have to control fall in the third round before landing. It'll still be a heavy landing although it'll be a soft enough landing to negate the concentration check and automatic prone. All movement would still be used up for the third round to control your fall.

[Quoz]

What you're looking at is something that people do in real life: HALO (High Altitude Low Opening) parachute insertions. They're thematically cool, but definitely risky. I'm pretty sure even the craziest of these guys wouldn't try something with that tight of a window, but they don't have magic, never-fail parachutes.

Since Fly can arrest your fall at least as well as feather fall, I would say this COULD work. The roll, if one is required, is up to your GM - but I would probably make it int or dex based, since it is all about timing. Magic deceleration should work at least as well as a parachute, so as long as you don't hit the ground you should be fine.

[Kane0]

Sure, I'd let you. Casting Fly gives you a fly speed, there isn't anywhere that says you must use it. Could you imagine not being able to walk just because you have a climb or swim speed?

Edit: I may ask for you to roll if you intend on controlling or stopping your fall before you hit the ground though. That could be difficult.

[LeonBH]

The roll, if one is required, is up to your GM - but I would probably make it int or dex based, since it is all about timing. Magic deceleration should work at least as well as a parachute, so as long as you don't hit the ground you should be fine.

I'd ask for an Intelligence (Acrobatics) or something around those lines. The DC should be 25 or 30, if a roll is required. Certainly seems very near impossible to stop hovering just above the ground if that's the goal, considering the difference between that and splatting on the ground is just a fraction of a second.

[Asmotherion]

Just ignore RAW, and get to play RAF in those kind of situations... This is exactly the kind of situation that if you think too much about RAW, you'll ruin all the fun.

You want to do something; You attempt to do it; Your DM describes the result of your actions based on his table rules, possibly altered by homebrew rules and/or specifically changed by the situation.

[Monavic]

Hitting ground does some pancaking and splattering too. Not disagreeing that sudden deceleration isn't bad normally. But if it's evenly applied to the entire body equally, at a cellular or even atomic scale, would it actually cause a problem? Normally that's not possible, but we're talking magic.
I am not a physicist or even good at math but for fun I thought I would try to answer this. From what I looked up a 70kg human falling 500 feet then coming to a stop within 1 foot is equal to 77,316.324 pounds of force or 343,920.142 newtons. The same human has 7*10 to the 27th power atoms in their body. So that would be 4.913-23 newtons of force on each atom. This is way less then the force to break an average covalent bond(10-9 newtons). So it would seem to be harmless, but I may have made some grave mistakes in my calculations lol. I do wonder what effect the energy would have, maybe just heat the body up a very minor amount that no one could notice.

[Aett_Thorn]

I would allow it, but you'd either need to make a Str save (if you have wings of some type), or a Con save (to keep from passing out due to the g-forces you've just put your body through without training).

[Lombra]

I would allow it, but you'd either need to make a Str save (if you have wings of some type), or a Con save (to keep from passing out due to the g-forces you've just put your body through without training).

You suffer exactly 1G (whatever gravity is in your world) because you fall with the linear acceleration of 1G for the whole time, I don't really see a point in it, it's like calling for an acrobatics check to not injure yourself when volountairly falling prone.

Edit: realized you were talking about deceleration, not acceleration, I still think that a check with a DC greater than 10 would be exaggerated.

[LeonBH]

realized you were talking about deceleration, not acceleration, I still think that a check with a DC greater then 10 would be exaggerated.

Depends on why you're asking for the check, I think. If it's for timing the position of the end result exactly, that's going to be pretty hard when you've accelerated at 1g for ~6s.

[Crusher]

Depends on why you're asking for the check, I think. If it's for timing the position of the end result exactly, that's going to be pretty hard when you've accelerated at 1g for ~6s.

Lets say you want to stop within "touch range" of the guy on the ground, so 5'. At the very end you'd be falling at about ~95 mph, which is about 140'/second. At that speed, you'll cover that 5' target in about 1/28th of a second, which is a pretty narrow window. I'd assign it a pretty high DC, maybe 18 or 20, with a 50/50 chance of pulling the cord too soon (no splat, but out of range) or too late (splat). Alternatively, if the player wanted to err a bit on the side of caution, I'd raise the DC slightly but say that if they fail the roll they're too high. Unless they roll a 1, then I'd rule they splatted despite their attempt at safety.

Yeah, that feels about right. DC18 for a 50/50 chance of splatting on a fail, DC20 to do it a little safer (but still screwing it up on a 1).

Worth noting is that the distance is surprisingly convenient. A round is 6 seconds, and 6 seconds of falling will drop you almost exactly 500 feet (in our world, anyway). It works out almost perfectly... if you get the timing right.

[Typhon]

I would rule that a hard check to not also put yourself in death saves, but yeah. You want to death dive, that is cool and you can try it. Not saying you will succeed at all as that isn't a usual tactic ever employed, so no one really trains in doing that. Having done parachuting, definite intelligence/perception to know when to react and break your descent. Alternatively, do acrobatics check to swoop, but that is what I would rule.

[Gryndle]

Pretty sure it's the hitting the ground part that does most of the killing. :smallamused:
actually there are common traumatic injuries that result from too-rapid decelerating from high speeds even without a resulting impact. One example is a type of traumatic brain injury called contra-coupe. Saw it once myself when I was doing clinicals on an ambulance for my EMT cert. Bunch of idiots drag racing, strapped in with standard seatbelts plus improvised neck support. driver was able to stop car to avoid impact with fence.
Passenger was DRT (dead-right-there) on our arrival. On scene we were pretty sure it was due to neck "brace". When it all came out in court, autopsy revealed neck was fine, but due to rapid deceleration the brain played ping-pong inside the victims skull resulting in near instant death.

SO yes, the impact can kill you. But so can the velocity of the fall. It is always important to remember: Gravity is a first class, grade-A ****** that is always trying to pull you down, and her sister Inertia isn't a prize either. (Unless they are on your side, then you can use them to REALLY mess someone else up with very little effort).

[dejarnjc]

My personal ruling would be that the spell Fly makes it so that the world's gravity has no affect on you while the spell is present so that even if you WANTED to fall, you couldn't without dropping concentration.

That being said, in this situation I would err on the side of rule of cool and let it happen.

[Tanarii]

actually there are common traumatic injuries that result from too-rapid decelerating from high speeds even without a resulting impact.The problem here is you're still assuming the deceleration happens due to unevenly applied force to the outside of the body, with the insides trying to keep going. That's what causes the traumatic injury.

There's no particular reason Fly should work that way. It's magic. It can may be able to accelerate or decelerate the entire body simultaneously.

[Demonslayer666]

I think that in the situation you described with the fly spell, I'd allow it, treating it like the fly speed could be added on to falling, rather than suspending the spell.

From a general standpoint, voluntarily suspending the effects of a spell could be abusive. Not sure how off the top of my head, but it feels like it could be with something like antimagic field.

[Laserlight]

a) There's no particular reason to try to stop at altitude 0, or to do all your braking in only one foot of distance. You could start slowing down at 100ft, for instance.

b) in any event, that's not really the question, which is more "if you have the spell active, can you deactivate it without ending it?"

[Tanarii]

b) in any event, that's not really the question, which is more "if you have the spell active, can you deactivate it without ending it?"No. But the question is: does Fly keep you aloft if you don't want it to?

IMO: Yes, it absolutely does. That's why you don't fall if you go prone. And you can't turn that feature off while the spell is on.

[Kane0]

No. But the question is: does Fly keep you aloft if you don't want it to?

IMO: Yes, it absolutely does. That's why you don't fall if you go prone. And you can't turn that feature off while the spell is on.

Does the same apply for Spider Climb?

[Tanarii]

Does the same apply for Spider Climb?
You mean, can they voluntarily pull their feet off the wall? Probably, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to lift their feet to walk. OTOH maybe not, possibly the magic keeps one foot stuck to the wall at all times.

Freely admit I'm probably overthinking all this. :smallwink:

[Kane0]

My point being that both spells give you an X speed. Having an X speed does not preclude you from using Y speed, nor does it force you to use X speed just because you have it. You have the choice to use whatever speed you have, or not.

Edit: Though it is funny to consider the existential crises of flying/swimming races if that were the case.

[Lombra]

No. But the question is: does Fly keep you aloft if you don't want it to?

IMO: Yes, it absolutely does. That's why you don't fall if you go prone. And you can't turn that feature off while the spell is on.

I can see this point and wouldn't debate it if I were playing at your table, it makes sense thanks to that falling prone exception about magical flight.

At the same time, I wouldn't enforce it at my table, because dive-bombing superman style fits within my "characters as heroes" view.

[Tanarii]

My point being that both spells give you an X speed. Having an X speed does not preclude you from using Y speed, nor does it force you to use X speed just because you have it. You have the choice to use whatever speed you have, or not.

Edit: Though it is funny to consider the existential crises of flying/swimming races if that were the case.Yes, but Fly doesn't just give you speed, it holds you aloft without you trying to move.


I can see this point and wouldn't debate it if I were playing at your table, it makes sense thanks to that falling prone exception about magical flight.

At the same time, I wouldn't enforce it at my table, because dive-bombing superman style fits within my "characters as heroes" view.
How I think it's "supposed" to work and what I'd do at my table are probably two different things in this case. I try not to over-analyze things so much before ruling at my table. Besides I just finished reading Oathbringer, and anyone attempting aerial acrobatics in-game is going to get some serious leeway for some time.

[Kane0]

"You touch a willing creature. The target gains a flying speed of 60 feet for the duration. When the spell ends, the target falls if it is still aloft, unless it can stop the fall."

Though my copy might not be the most up-to-date.

Edit: Xanathar's expands on this on page 77, but Xanathar's is entirely optional, stated half a dozen times on the same page. But even then it does not state if a fly speed given to you from a spell can be toggled, it merely says you are held aloft if knocked prone or otherwise unable to move.

When in doubt my personal rule of thumb is to err on the side of player agency and not assume the worst case scenario, unlike Pathfinder.

[Tanarii]

"You touch a willing creature. The target gains a flying speed of 60 feet for the duration. When the spell ends, the target falls if it is still aloft, unless it can stop the fall."

Though my copy might not be the most up-to-date.See the rules for falling when prone.

[Kane0]

Oh right, so we're pretty much back to the first few responses. Carry on then!

[Tanarii]

Oh right, so we're pretty much back to the first few responses. Carry on then!
Feel free to go back to post #6 and we can pick it up from there and go for another round. :smallwink: :smallbiggrin: