Rebalancing Ability Scores for more interesting, less cookie cutter builds [Archive]

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Greywander

2017-12-13, 02:15 AM

So something I've noticed is that character optimization has lead to a sort of cookie cutter method of choosing your ability scores. I could make a flow chart, but it basically boils down to this:

If you're a ranged or light armor martial, DEX is your primary ability score, your spellcasting ability score (if you have one) is secondary, and CON is tertiary. Dump everything else.
If you're a heavy armor melee martial, same as above but with STR instead of DEX.
If you're a full caster, your spellcasting ability score is primary, and DEX and CON can fight for second and third place. Dump everything else.

Now, there are specialized builds that buck this trend, but by and large most optimized characters follow these rules. Of course, you could also opt to build a nonoptimized character, but that's not going to be appealing to most folks. The fact is that STR and INT are both seen as unappealing if they're not directly relevant to your class. What I'd like to see is, instead of there merely being one way to optimize, there are several depending on how you spread your ability scores out.

Constitution
Let's start by looking at CON, if only to say that I think CON is fine as-is. CON is already everyone's second or third highest ability score, regardless of anything else about their class. Really, there's little reason not to have a CON of at least 14 in any optimized build, though if you're looking to play more of a skill monkey you might find it acceptable to reduce CON to 12 or 10 in order to raise other ability scores for better skill checks.

Strength and Dexterity
For martial characters the big match up is between STR and DEX. The way 5e has decided to handle these two ability scores has skewed things heavily in favor of DEX, but not so much that STR is universally unappealing. But if you're not a melee warrior in heavy armor, you're most often better off going with DEX over STR.

One simple suggestion is to use your DEX modifier for your weapon attack rolls, while using your STR modifier for the damage roll (even for ranged weapons). Thus, when choosing your ability scores you must choose between damage or accuracy. Now, this might seem to skew things even further in the favor of DEX (but remember that attack rolls also add your proficiency bonus, while damage rolls do not, making DEX less critical to accuracy as your prof bonus rises), so let's also remove the finesse property from all weapons, with the possible exception of one-handed weapons with a damage die of 1d4 (dagger, dart, sling, and whip). We could also introduce a two-handed finesse weapon that deals 1d8 damage. The longsword would be a good nomination for this, as it appears in both the elf racial weapon list and rogue weapon list, who are both commonly DEX based. (Realistically, the longsword is also a good weapon for those lacking strength due to both being quite light (3-ish pounds) and using both hands.) When wielded as a non-finesse weapon, the longsword would behave as normal (one-handed 1d8, versatile 1d10), but as a finesse weapon it would be a two-handed weapon that deals 1d8 damage.

This would limit the viability of a DEX-only build without making it entirely untenable. We could further cut back on the usefulness of DEX while bolstering the usefulness of STR by making finesse weapons use the average of your STR and DEX modifiers instead of only using your DEX mod. We could also make a STR-based mirror of finesse (mighty?), with the club and great club being likely candidates to receive this new trait, thus making STR-only builds possible again (if not ideal).

This does throw a wrench into some of the existing mechanics. Monks and their Martial Arts feature, for example (in this case, monks should probably treat their monk weapons and unarmed strikes as both finesse and mighty. Additional grappling bonuses and possibly the option to use STR instead of DEX for AC would make either STR or DEX monks viable). Also, the restriction on rogues that they must use finesse weapons for sneak attacks would also need to be lifted. And while it makes a lot more sense for a longbow to add bonus damage based on STR, it makes less sense for a crossbow. Crossbows could probably have their damage buffed and instead get no modifier bonus to damage rolls; say 2d4 for the hand crossbow, 2d6 for the light crossbow, and 2d8 for the heavy crossbow. I think this fits as crossbows would be the logical weapon for someone who lacked the strength to draw a bow.

One last thing that might make STR more interesting is increasing the range of thrown weapons and bows (but not crossbows) based on your STR mod.

I'm not sure how to make STR appealing to a full caster, but then I don't know that it needs to be. Certainly I'd like to see the option made viable, but it seems fitting for those who devote themselves to magic full-time to tend toward physical frailty. It gives them a common weakness that can be exploited. We just need more spells and effects that require STR saves.

Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
For martial characters with no spellcasting, the mental ability scores seem to have little appeal. I'm not sure how to make mental ability scores look more interesting and offer more options to a martial character. Maybe just involving them in more out-of-combat ability checks might help.

For casters, though, this becomes a whole different problem. Typically, each caster just boosts whichever they use to cast their spells and dumps the others. But I think casters should have the choice of which ability score to use to cast their spells, and that such a choice should be meaningful and carry different benefits depending on the choice made.

Now, I could say that your spell save DC could be INT mod + WIS mod + CHA mod + Prof bonus instead of 8 + Spell Ability mod + Prof bonus and call it a day. However, that only works for spells that require saving throws, so attack rolls would still have to use only one ability score. It's also slightly better if you somehow manage to boost all three to 20 but only breaks even if you can get them all to 18. I'm not sure what the solution is here except maybe to simply choose one and use that.

However, we can also have each ability score provide some small benefits. Something important to remember is that a typical caster will likely only have one ability score at 20, with the others at maybe 16 or 14, but at the cost of lower DEX or CON. The point is that they can choose which benefit they think is more important and focus on that.

First, I tend to think of an Intelligent character as one who is thoughtful and versatile. They are all about being prepared and having more options open to them.

Intelligence benefit. If you are a spellcaster, you have a number of memory points equal to your Intelligence modifier. As an action, you may select a spell you don't know/have prepared of a level you would be able to cast from your spell list (non wizard) or spellbook (wizard) by spending a number of memory points equal to the spell's level. You now know or have that spell prepared until you finish a long rest, at which point you regain spent memory points.

And yes, I realize this is a huge benefit to spontaneous casters like sorcerers and bards and makes them look a bit more like wizards. Yes, that's the point. A high-Intelligence magic user should look a lot like a wizard. This would, at most, allow you to prepare up to a 5th level spell or as many as five 1st level spells, and even for that you'd need to max out INT at 20. For a sorcerer that's still CHA based, an INT of 14 would allow them to prepare one 2nd level spell or two 1st level spells that they don't know, which is very useful, but also limited in its power.

For Wisdom I'm less certain. I see WIS casters as being more defensive and support casters. So maybe the WIS benefit would look something like this:

Wisdom benefit. When you cast a spell you may choose to grant the target or targets of your spell temporary hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier until the start of your next turn, as well as allowing them to add your Wisdom modifier to one saving throw they make before the start of your next turn. The target gains these benefits after the spell has affected them, and thus can't use these benefits to protect themselves from your spell. Alternatively, when you cast a spell you may grant these benefits to yourself instead of any of your targets.

Basically, you can give a mild buff to allies by casting a spell on them, or a mild buff to yourself by casting a spell on an enemy. Since the benefits only last until the start of your next turn, they are wasted if that ally doesn't take damage or make a saving throw (which means most of the time this benefit will do nothing, but the times it does will be when it counts). Note that you can even do this if you, say, catch an ally in a fireball, although the ally can't use the temp HP or saving throw bonus to defend against the fireball itself, it can at least give them a small buffer afterwards.

I also feel like this would give a support caster something to do aside from spamming a damage cantrip.

For Charisma I feel like this should be more about controlling and manipulating. Illusions and enchantments. So for some reason it makes sense to me that CHA should affect spell saving throws, probably because most control spells are of the "save or suck" variety. But just adding your CHA mod to your spell save DC would be far too strong.

Charisma benefit. When you cast a spell that requires a saving throw from the target or targets, you may change the ability score used for the saving throw for one target. You may do this a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier. Finishing a long rest refreshes your uses of this feature.

This has the potential to be quite powerful, stronger, even, than simply giving them disadvantage on their saving throw. But it does require you to at least have an idea of what a creature's weakest save might be. You can still bungle it up and change it to a save that the target is even stronger in. Still, you can feeblemind a wizard and make it a STR save (probably fluffed as punching them really hard in the head with magic).

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to read this. I'm actually quite exhausted right now, so there may be numerous typos, or this entire post might be rambling or just terrible. Let me know what you think and what ideas you have for encouraging players to spread out their ability scores in ways other than the cookie cutter at the top of this post. (And yes, I realize that you don't have to optimize your character. But I can't help but feel like I'm deliberately crippling myself if I don't.)

JackPhoenix

2017-12-13, 03:23 AM

"Let's nerf martials by making them MAD and buff casters by giving them extra benefits from their primary ability score. Also, screw gishes, let's make them even more MAD."

If you're a ranged or light armor martial, DEX is your primary ability score, your spellcasting ability score (if you have one) is secondary, and CON is tertiary. Dump everything else.
If you're a heavy armor melee martial, same as above but with STR instead of DEX.
If you're a full caster, your spellcasting ability score is primary, and DEX and CON can fight for second and third place. Dump everything else.

While you've "solved" the first two problems, if you're full caster, your spellcasting ability score is still primary, with Dex and Con in the second and third place. You'll get extra benefit from your primary score, and nice benefits from other mental scores, while Str and Dex changes don't impact you. Meanwhile, martials need to divide their valuable points between two scores now just to perform as good as before in their intended role, meaning less points for everything else, or being worse at the thing they are supposed to do.

Greywander

2017-12-13, 04:03 AM

"Let's nerf martials by making them MAD and buff casters by giving them extra benefits from their primary ability score. Also, screw gishes, let's make them even more MAD."

While you've "solved" the first two problems, if you're full caster, your spellcasting ability score is still primary, with Dex and Con in the second and third place. You'll get extra benefit from your primary score, and nice benefits from other mental scores, while Str and Dex changes don't impact you. Meanwhile, martials need to divide their valuable points between two scores now just to perform as good as before in their intended role, meaning less points for everything else, or being worse at the thing they are supposed to do.
These are fair points. Obviously some balancing work still would need to be done, I'll have to sleep on this. I'm thinking of possible solutions, such as not having a spellcasting ability score at all (spell attacks are just 1d20 + prof bonus, spell save DC is just 8 + prof bonus), but such solutions seems like they might just further upset the delicate balance of the game. It's almost like the designers knew what they were doing and random, sleep deprived nubs shouldn't be trying to change the rules.

jojo

2017-12-13, 04:40 AM

Galactkaktus

2017-12-13, 05:08 AM

Dex vs Strength is not heavily in favor of Dex.
Dex gets higher initiative, better ranged alternative and stealth.
Str gets higher AC, Heavy weapons are all str weapons which does the most damage in combination with great weapon master. And athletics gives you combat options like shove and grapple.

ad_hoc

2017-12-13, 05:31 AM

In my experience the best house rules are simple, easy to learn, and easy to implement.

Here are my suggestions:

Dex - Remove bonus to initiative. Initiative becomes a special ability check (like death saving throw is a special saving throw) not attached to any ability.

Int/Cha - Change some Wisdom saving throws to Int or Cha as thematically appropriate.

Avonar

2017-12-13, 05:39 AM

Your suggestions really do nothing to change any cookie cutter-ness. Are you using weapons? You'll take good STR and DEX for your attacks, and CON third. Are you a caster? You'll take high INT, WIS and CHA for the saving throws and ignore all physical stats. If anything you have taken away options by making characters need more stats to be high to do their job.

Playing a class that really needs 1 good ability only, Rogues or casters for example, leaves room to build your other stats quite freely to suit the character you have in mind. You'll find characters with good intelligence but low charisma, good wisdom but low dex, high strength, low intelligence etc. You actually find a variety of these.

Kane0

2017-12-13, 05:46 AM

JellyPooga

2017-12-13, 05:46 AM

I have to wonder why the Int/Wis/Cha benefits are only of any use to spellcasters.

Either make all benefits/changes to ability scores applicable to all Classes, or change nothing. What you have written up, at least for Int/Wis/Cha, should be included as Class Features, not general features of Ability Scores.

Even that considered, I still don't like the changes. The Int bonus is too marginal after about level 5, the Charisma bonus is way too powerful (as if the Int/Cha divide wasn't large enough already) and why would a Warlock or Wizard give their ally temp HP and a Saving Throw bonus for casting Fly or See Invisibility on them for having a decent Wisdom?

krugaan

2017-12-13, 06:17 AM

Simple Fix:

Warlocks are int casters, not cha casters.

Initiative is determined by the average of int and dex (round down).

Everything else it not bad. Not every stat can be super important to everyone.

Unoriginal

2017-12-13, 07:10 AM

There is nothing to fix here.

Optimized characters are "cookie cuters" because, and it might suprise you, they're optimized. No matter the system, if one choice is determined the best, and one person's goal is to do the best choices, then of course the builds will be similar.

DEX is not more important than STR. Initiative doesn't matter much except for some Rogues, or if you're fighting another PC. Yes you're advised to go DEX if you don't go STR, but one choice is not better than the other, it's just that less classes can pull the STR build efficiently.

And no, mental stats are not superfluous, even if they don't impact your class abilities. Being an unperceptive moron is not a great way to adventure, even if you're a Warlock. As Lucius Threvor showed.

Galactkaktus

2017-12-13, 08:34 AM

DEX is not more important than STR. Initiative doesn't matter much except for some Rogues, or if you're fighting another PC. Yes you're advised to go DEX if you don't go STR, but one choice is not better than the other, it's just that less classes can pull the STR build efficiently.

This is true for martials. But not for spellcasters casting a spell before anything else has happened is usally really powerful. So i whould say that initiative is very important just not for martials(Assasin being an exception).

krugaan

2017-12-13, 09:06 AM

This is true for martials. But not for spellcasters casting a spell before anything else has happened is usally really powerful. So i whould say that initiative is very important just not for martials(Assasin being an exception).

In a fundamentally turn based game, yes, going first is a rather large advantage.

Plus, you know, you get AC.

This is why dex is such a good stat, even for casters.

KorvinStarmast

2017-12-13, 09:20 AM

Warlocks are int casters, not cha casters.

Initiative is determined by the average of int and dex (round down).

Everything else it not bad. Not every stat can be super important to everyone. Yeah.

In a fundamentally turn based game, yes, going first is a rather large advantage.
Plus, you know, you get AC. This is why dex is such a good stat, even for casters. A point worth making.

Aett_Thorn

2017-12-13, 09:28 AM

My main problems with Str/Dex are:

1) Dex adds to both offense and defense (and initiative). Str only adds to offense.

2) The number of saving throws/skill checks is well disproportionate in Dex's favor. And even some spells/effects that target Str as a saving throw can also target Dex at the player's discretion.

3) Dex is significantly better for out-of-combat uses.

4) Str gets better weapons, but not THAT much better. 2 extra points of damage on average at the expense of a shield or free hand. Str and Shield vs Dex and Shield means that you're both doing the same amount of damage, and in the best armor with a maxed stat, Dex is only 1 AC behind.

Now, there's really no easy way to fix this, but to say that there's not real disparity here isn't really that true, either.

Unoriginal

2017-12-13, 09:32 AM

Point is, "several classes benefits from high DEX" doesn't mean "DEX is better". It means "DEX is a worthwhile investment for the classes that benefit from it, while STR is a worthwhile investment for the classes that benefit from it".

I gotta ask, though: in your experience, how much DEX do the Druids/Clerics usually have? Around 14?

3) Dex is significantly better for out-of-combat uses.

What do you mean?

Sception

2017-12-13, 09:34 AM

If you want to make more varied stat builds possible, and encourage people to select stats for role playing rather than mechanical reasons, then the solution isn't to make stats in general /more/ important mechanically. Quite the opposite, actually, what you need to do is make them /less/ important, so that a player who spreads their points around isn't hurting critical game play elements like attack bonus, ac, save dc, and hit points.

Make stat mods apply only and exclusively to the following things:

ability checks
skill checks
saving throws

then make sure to make skills from a variety of stats useful, and call saves on stats with infrequently used skills more. And call more group checks, to make the modifiers of characters who don't have the best of a given stat in the party relevant. ie, more strength and con checks and saves in particular.

Maybe call some skill checks on the lower of two stats, so that a player needs balance rather than min-max to be good at things. Like lock picking might be the lower of dex or int, climbing might be the lower of str or con, deception might be the lower of wis or cha, with some variability on the stats used based on character & situation.

The important thing is that attack, ac, damage, save DCs, and hit points should all be tied directly and exclusively to class and/or character level, with no stat input at all. Those mechanics are too heavy, too fundamental to a character's ability to function to tie them to stats if you want players to feel like they have any choice in how those stats are distributed. If these things remain tied to stat mods, then they will always govern characters' stats, not the other way around, and nothing else you do will matter.

Aett_Thorn

2017-12-13, 09:41 AM

What do you mean?

Str, out of combat, basically lets you open doors and other stuck objects. Maybe help Intimidate someone if your DM allows the Str check instead of Cha.

Dex, out of combat, allows for sneaking around, acrobatics to get places, and stealing/tricking people

Basically, Dex has some uses in the other pillars of the game. Str has very few.

Talamare

2017-12-13, 10:12 AM

Step 1 - Introduce Agility as a Physical Stat, Agility affects Initiative and AC

Step 2 - Dexterity affects Attack Rolls for all classes, including Ranged Spell Attacks

Step 3 - Strength affects Damage Rolls for Physical Attacks

Step 4 - You can have spells learned equal to Half your Level + Half your Intelligence (total not Mod)

Step 5 - Wisdom affects what is used as the Modifier for your Spell Save DC

Step 6.1 - Spell Slots are removed from the game, Spell Levels still exist
Step 6.2 - You can cast a number of spells equal to Level + Charisma (total not Mod)

Step 7 - Primary Casting Stat determines your Spell Damage

Step 8 - Warlock is no longer a "caster"

It's what I would do, but I haven't fully encapsulated the full effects of such changes.

Sception

2017-12-13, 10:12 AM

strength actually gets you more places through athletics than dex gets you through acrobatics. climbing and jumping are both under strength, not dex. dex lets you balance along narrow or slippery ledges, sure, but I wouldn't count that as more important than jumping and climging. Of course, by the time you have access to party-wide flight, none of that matters at all.

both strength and dex let you get out of bindings. Dex can pick a lock, or strength can force it. dex resists a ton of attacks, dex saves are super common, but str saves also apply to a bunch of things. dex can apply straight to your ac with light armor, but strength can let you wear heavy armor that's just as good. most of the time.

Honestly, if your party actually uses encumbrance rules, I'd say the two are near close enough to equal, with encumbrance balancing out stealth. But most parties ignore encumbrance ime, so... *shrug*

LeonBH

2017-12-13, 10:19 AM

Sception

2017-12-13, 10:21 AM

Step 1...

...

It's what I would do, but I haven't fully encapsulated the full effects of such changes.

With all of your fundamental game mechanics tied to stats, optimization will inevitably result in static 'best' stat arrays again. They might be different for different classes, but the fundamental problem - that your characters stats won't really be variable without kicking themselves in the nuts - will remain.

Again, here's the list you actually want:

1) attack bonus, AC, damage, concentration checks, and save DCs are dependent exclusively on proficiency and do not use stat mods at all. adjust proficiency as needed to make the numbers work out.

2) hit points are based entirely on your class levels, and do not use stat mods at all.

3) Give some races/classes an initiative modifier, and otherwise make initiative a straight die roll with no stat modifiers at all.

3) stat mods apply exclusively to saves & skill/ability checks. That's it. Increase the use of enemy attacks that target stats with few or no associated skills, con in particular. Ie, more disease checks, more endurance checks to hostile environment, etc.

honestly, maybe consider removing stats and stat mods from the game except as a role play tool like alignment entirely.

Talamare

2017-12-13, 10:25 AM

With all of your fundamental game mechanics tied to stats, optimization will inevitably result in static 'best' stat arrays again. They might be different for different classes, but the fundamental problem - that your characters stats won't really be variable without kicking themselves in the nuts - will remain.

Sounds like you went the complete opposite direction, tho I believe with main the exact best will be a lot more malleable. Since the stats are less dumbable.

A Sorcerer might get higher INT for more Spells or even borderline ignore CHA completely to get very high WIS

Dudewithknives

2017-12-13, 10:36 AM

Every time someone has an idea of how to "fix" stat imbalance it always ends up being just a way to make martials need more stats, and casters to need less.

Step 1: Make 9 stats instead of 6. 3 social, 3 mental, 3 physical.

Set them up like a grid.

Physical: Strength Dexterity Constitution

Mental: Intelligence Awareness Wisdom

Social: Presence Charisma Willpower

Offense Defense Health

(I hope that formats correctly)

The column total is your bonus for that category:

Offense total is for Attack and Damage for most classes and more aggressive skills.

Ex. If a Ranger has a 16 str (+3) 12 Int (+1) and 14 Pre (+2) he would add a +6 to his attack and damage with a weapon.

Defense is for your initiative, noticing things, and defensive skills.

Ex. A Sorcerer with a 16 Dex , 12 Awa 18 Cha, would have an initiative of 8 when reacting to things.

Health is the total of your ability to sustain stress either mental or physical.

Ex. Your HP is your HD + total of your Health Bonuses so a Cleric who has 14 con, 16 wis and 16 will would have HP total of 1D8 + 8 each level

Each Class however, gets to use one stat for 2 categories based on their class:

Ex. A barbarian can con instead of cha to find there defense total. A bard can use Cha instead of Str for their offensive total.

Just an idea I am throwing around right now trying to fine tune.

Unoriginal

2017-12-13, 10:39 AM

Str, out of combat, basically lets you open doors and other stuck objects. Maybe help Intimidate someone if your DM allows the Str check instead of Cha.

Dex, out of combat, allows for sneaking around, acrobatics to get places, and stealing/tricking people

Basically, Dex has some uses in the other pillars of the game. Str has very few.

You're conveniently forgetting that STR is what you use for carrying equipment, climbing, swimming and jumping.

Good luck trying to "get into places" with acrobatics when you suck at jumping.

Also don't try to downplay how moving things and breaking things are.

Aett_Thorn

2017-12-13, 11:31 AM

You're conveniently forgetting that STR is what you use for carrying equipment, climbing, swimming and jumping.

Good luck trying to "get into places" with acrobatics when you suck at jumping.

Also don't try to downplay how moving things and breaking things are.

Two things:

1) I've found that for equipment, the Dex-based characters tend not to have as much to carry, and the bulk of equipment weight comes from armor itself.

2) The number of times, in my experience, that Sneaking alone has come up is much higher than the number of times that we've had to move/break things things

Grod_The_Giant

2017-12-13, 11:33 AM

A simple fix would be 4e style "pick one of two Abilities" for class features. Combine that with easier access to heavy armor, or maybe "use Prof or Dex to calculate AC, whichever is higher," or something else to make Dex less important for defense, and maybe removing Ability restrictions on things like Rage and Sneak Attack, and you open up a lot of options. Something like maybe...

Barbarian: Rage damage boost applies to all melee and thrown weapon attacks
Bard: Can cast/gain Inspiration with either Cha or Int
Cleric: Can cast/channel with either Wis or Cha
Druid: Can cast with either Wis or Int
Fighter: No change
Monk: Can use any mental stat for Monk stuff
Paladin: Can cast/channel/aura with either Wis or Cha
Ranger: Can cast with either Wis or Int
Rogue: Can sneak attack with any weapon
Sorcerer: Can cast using either Wis or Cha
Warlock: Can cast using either Cha or Int
Wizard: Can cast using either Int or Wis

You could actually pull Con out entirely, methinks. Use (average HD roll -1) in place of Con for gaining hit points on level-up (ie, d6+2, d8+3, d10+4, d12+5), and make Concentration checks (no longer saves) using your casting stat, and boom! No need for Con.

Dont forget theres also the option of killing the sacred cow entirely and just doing away with stats.
Boost prof bonus a bit, make heavier use of one-half and one-third prof bonus to relevant rolls and probably rework skills and saves while youre at it to iron out the bigger issues.
I've done that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503455-5e-Without-Ability-Scores-skills-Skills-Skills&p=22179647). It's not hard; you set Proficiency to scale from +5 to +11, to match the current math for primary abilities, and use half of the new Proficiency in place of isolated ability modifiers (ie, damage) or Proficiency scores (ie, Jack of All Trades). Throw in a "Brawn" ability for raw Str and Con checks, and maybe a "Presence" for raw Cha, and you're pretty much good to go.

robbie374

2017-12-13, 12:30 PM

What I'd like to see is, instead of there merely being one way to optimize, there are several depending on how you spread your ability scores out.

What about doing something like this:

Skills:
For each ability, you may have proficiency in a maximum number of skills using that ability equal to your ability modifier.

Initiative:
+ Int + Dex + Wis

Mental Stats:

Spellcasting:

Intelligence. Number of spells known (learn Int per level) or prepared (Int + level)
Wisdom. Add +Wis to healing.
Spell attack = + Prof + Wis + Cha, spell save DC = 8 + Prof + Wis + Cha
Charisma. Add +Cha to damage.

Weapons and AC:

Int +4 = +1 attack, +1 AC (You understand exactly how weapons work best, and how to best avoid them.)
Wis +4 = +1 attack, +1 AC (Your intuition tells you precise moments to strike, and precise moments to dodge.)
Cha +4 = +1 attack, +1 AC (Your force of character causes your enemies to hesitate against your attacks, and to lose their nerve when attacking you.)

Physical Stats:

Weapons:

Weapon Attacks:
Light weapons: + Prof + Dex
Regular weapons: + Prof + Dex (max 3) + Str (max 3)
Heavy weapons: + Prof + Str

Weapon Damage: + Str

Weapons v2:

Weapon Attacks: + Prof + Dex
Heavy Weapons: require min Str +3
Regular weapons: require min Str +1
Light weapons: no minimum

Weapon Damage: + Str

AC:
Use Str and Dex in armor calculation.

Base

+ Str

+ Dex

Unarmored

10

+ max 0

+ max 4

Light Armor

Padded

11

+ max 0

+ max 4

Leather

11

+ max 0

+ max 4

Studded Leather

12

+ max 0

+ max 4

Medium Armor

Hide

11

+ max 0

+ max 3

Chain Shirt

11

+ max 0

+ max 3

Scale Mail

12

+ max 1

+ max 2

Breastplate

12

+ max 1

+ max 2

Half Plate

13

+ max 2

+ max 2

Heavy Armor

Ring Mail

13

+ max 2

+ max 0

Chain Mail

13

+ max 3

+ max 0

Splint

13

+ max 4

+ max 0

Plate

13

+ max 5

+ max 0

Unoriginal

2017-12-13, 01:22 PM

What about doing something like this:
-snip-

Why do that?

Talamare

2017-12-13, 01:22 PM

Mister_Squinty

2017-12-13, 01:26 PM

Can you imagine an 8 Con 20 Str character? Or 8 Con 20 Dex character? How did they train their body to that extent with such low Con anyway?

By using high intensity/low duration exercises to maximize power.

High ST/Lower CN: Powerlifters, NFL defensive linemen

Low ST/Higher CN: Marathon runners and other endurance athletes.

Talamare

2017-12-13, 01:29 PM

By using high intensity/low duration exercises to maximize power.

High ST/Lower CN: Powerlifters, NFL defensive linemen

Low ST/Higher CN: Marathon runners and other endurance athletes.

High Dex/Low Con...

Well, Dex means Skill... So any Professional Gamer
Alternatively, a Short Range Sprinter

Potato_Priest

2017-12-13, 01:31 PM

Yeah, this seems like a nerf to martials in the form of needing two stats just to attack effectively and a buff to casters where they get niche boosts from other ability scores.

You could either try giving casters penalties like "Int for dex and str save DCs, Cha for wis and Int save DCs, Wis for con and cha save DCs" to be a nerf to both, or you could give martials extra benefits for having high str/dex even when it's not their primary. But don't give one group new options and the other new penalties.

samcifer

2017-12-13, 01:31 PM

I'm trying to talk my dm into letting me play a UA Warforged, but move one or both +1s from STR (and hopefully CON as well) to INT so I can play a Warforged Wizard as in 4e, there was a +2 CON and +2 INT variation of the Warforged race (original version has +2 STR and +2 CON), but I never got the chance to play my character concept in that edition.

Mister_Squinty

2017-12-13, 01:34 PM

High Dex/Low Con...

Well, Dex means Skill... So any Professional Gamer
Alternatively, a Short Range Sprinter

Sprinters are actually very powerfully built compared to distance runners, similar to powerlifters, they expend a lot of energy very quickly. They would be High ST (for power) and DX (for initiative and reaction speed coming out of the blocks), lower CN.

Theodoxus

2017-12-13, 01:39 PM

I really liked the split attributes that, iirc, Skills and Powers introduced in 2nd Ed. Strength was Power and Endurance, Dex was Aim (or agility) and Balance, Constitution was Health and something... sorry, dredging memories from 20+ years ago, I've learned too many interim systems in between...

Point was, you had dials for each attribute - A high Strength could represent a lot of Power, so you hit harder, but low Endurance so you ran out of steam quickly (or vice versa - you could hit things for days, but it was death by a thousand cuts).

If you rolled a 16 for Strength, and wanted to hit really hard, you could boost your Power to 20, but at the same time, knock your endurance down to 12. The two split attributes still averaged to 16...

I also thought the 4E take on attribute uses for defense and offense was pretty slick too. I really wish WotC had not been so 3E centric when developing 5E - especially since they wanted an 'old school' feel to the game. Yeah, 4E was panned, but not because of how the attributes were treated, but because of how the class powers were portrayed. I think WotC learned the wrong lessons from prior editions, and trying to resurrect the success of 3E by changing BAB to PB and streamlining the combat rules wasn't what we needed...

I'm not sure adding more attributes really helps - though I would at least try such a system... OTOH, splitting attributes essentially does the same thing, so I guess that's kinda hypocritical on my part. Eep.

Talamare

2017-12-13, 01:45 PM

Sprinters are actually very powerfully built compared to distance runners, similar to powerlifters, they expend a lot of energy very quickly. They would be High ST (for power) and DX (for initiative and reaction speed coming out of the blocks), lower CN.

Sprinters may have high Leg Strength, but in DnD Strength basically means Arm Strength

mephnick

2017-12-13, 02:01 PM

ad_hoc

2017-12-13, 02:51 PM

By using high intensity/low duration exercises to maximize power.

High ST/Lower CN: Powerlifters, NFL defensive linemen

Low ST/Higher CN: Marathon runners and other endurance athletes.

Can confirm. I wouldn't have anywhere near 20 Str but I can lift 450lbs on a good day.

I also have a variety of chronic/potentially terminal illnesses which leave my immune system comprised and I fatigue easily.

Mister_Squinty

2017-12-13, 02:54 PM

Sprinters may have high Leg Strength, but in DnD Strength basically means Arm Strength

http://http://scd.france24.com/en/files/imagecache/france24_ct_api_bigger_169/article/image/BOLT-M_1.jpg

Those guys look like they didn't skip Arm Day.

Talamare

2017-12-13, 03:17 PM

Link to a picture of Usain Bolt

Those guys look like they didn't skip Arm Day.

They only bench around ~200 lbs

Official Encumbrance states that a person can Lift around 30 * Strength Score

8 * 30 = 240 lbs

So... yeaaaa

krugaan

2017-12-13, 03:23 PM

They only bench around ~200 lbs

Official Encumbrance states that a person can Lift around 30 * Strength Score

8 * 30 = 240 lbs

So... yeaaaa

Isn't that "lift above your head?" That's like a military press; 240 is pretty damn respectable.

Not like, Olympic level, but still...

Mister_Squinty

2017-12-13, 03:25 PM

They only bench around ~200 lbs

Official Encumbrance states that a person can Lift around 30 * Strength Score

8 * 30 = 240 lbs

So... yeaaaa

"Lift" isn't "Bench Press". Specifically, carrying capacity would have to include leg strength.

So... yeaaaa.

Talamare

2017-12-13, 03:30 PM

Isn't that "lift above your head?" That's like a military press; 240 is pretty damn respectable.

Not like, Olympic level, but still...

The real revelation here is that the "Weak" Wizard everyone mocks is actually fairly strong compared to normal irl humans
It is said that a standard village NPC has 10 across the board, which means they Lift 300

However, we should also consider that the standard village NPC are essentially professional farmers

"Lift" isn't "Bench Press". Specifically, carrying capacity would have to include leg strength.

So... yeaaaa.

No it wouldn't, you can Lift something without moving/using your legs

krugaan

2017-12-13, 03:44 PM

The real revelation here is that the "Weak" Wizard everyone mocks is actually fairly strong compared to normal irl humans
It is said that a standard village NPC has 10 across the board, which means they Lift 300

However, we should also consider that the standard village NPC are essentially professional farmers

It's not hard to find other areas where DnD models break down.

But yeah, it's best not to look to carefully at real world analogues.

ad_hoc

2017-12-13, 03:47 PM

No it wouldn't, you can Lift something without moving/using your legs

Well yes, but much less.

The biggest lifts are the deadlift and the squat.

Legs and back have the biggest muscles in the body. Arms, chest, and shoulders aren't used in the big lifts.

Side note: bodybuilders aren't usually very strong, especially amateur ones. They train for size and minimal fat, not strength. Powerlifters are the ones to look at.

krugaan

2017-12-13, 03:53 PM

Well yes, but much less.

The biggest lifts are the deadlift and the squat.

Legs and back have the biggest muscles in the body. Arms, chest, and shoulders aren't used in the big lifts.

Side note: bodybuilders aren't usually very strong, especially amateur ones. They train for size and minimal fat, not strength. Powerlifters are the ones to look at.

This.

That guy that looks like a model, skinny waist, bulging chest?

Bodybuilder.

The guy that looks like the Kingpin, huge "gut", no neck?

Powerlifter.

Mister_Squinty

2017-12-13, 03:54 PM

No it wouldn't, you can Lift something without moving/using your legs

"Lifting" isn't "Carrying".

Eric Diaz

2017-12-13, 04:09 PM

My 2c:

It can be done, and it can be done in a balanced way.

Let's start by looking at CON, if only to say that I think CON is fine as-is.

Agreed.

Strength and Dexterity
For martial characters the big match up is between STR and DEX. The way 5e has decided to handle these two ability scores has skewed things heavily in favor of DEX, but not so much that STR is universally unappealing. But if you're not a melee warrior in heavy armor, you're most often better off going with DEX over STR.

The most annoying thing for me is that strong character are encouraged to be clumsy and vice-versa.

But it can be fixed.

Like you said, you ALWAYS use DEX to-hit and STR to damage.

HOWEVER, you have "finesse weapons" - you ALSO add your DEX to damage - and "brute" weapons - you add TWICE your STR modifier to damage. Off-hand lets you add the worst of the two.

This is not as powerful as it sounds, specially if you get rid of sharpshooter and GWM.

You can also let DEX bonus be added to AC depending on the weight of armor. Say, if your armor + shield AC is SMALLER than STR, you can add your DEX bonus... up to STR. Or something like that.

Except, maybe =, for barbarians with 24 STR...

Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
For martial characters with no spellcasting, the mental ability scores seem to have little appeal. I'm not sure how to make mental ability scores look more interesting and offer more options to a martial character. Maybe just involving them in more out-of-combat ability checks might help.

For casters, though, this becomes a whole different problem. Typically, each caster just boosts whichever they use to cast their spells and dumps the others. But I think casters should have the choice of which ability score to use to cast their spells, and that such a choice should be meaningful and carry different benefits depending on the choice made.

Well, nothing wrong with letting some caster choose between CHA and INT, I guess. WIS - like CON - is good enough as it is.

I don't think coming up with whole new powers for casters is needed or useful.

I would add some benefits for INT - for everyone - and maybe a little something for CHA. Some extra languages, tools or even skills at 13/15/17 or 14/16/18 seem appropriate (since full caster would have 20 in their main stat anyway, that would give them some encouragement).

Yes, it would make wizard slightly more powerful... but not that much.

Kane0

2017-12-13, 04:10 PM

Step 1: Make 9 stats instead of 6. 3 social, 3 mental, 3 physical.

Set them up like a grid.

Physical: Strength Dexterity Constitution

Mental: Intelligence Awareness Wisdom

Social: Presence Charisma Willpower

Offense Defense Health
I once played around with a similar idea, two stats for each pillar: Physique & Dexterity, Intelligence & Intuition, Charisma & Discipline.

I've done that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503455-5e-Without-Ability-Scores-skills-Skills-Skills&p=22179647).

Yeah that was my inspiration for doing something quite similar. Remove stats, use skill ranks, return to 3e saves and chop down to 15 levels with 5 spell tiers. Still a rough draft though.

Doug Lampert

2017-12-13, 04:29 PM

Dont forget theres also the option of killing the sacred cow entirely and just doing away with stats.
Boost prof bonus a bit, make heavier use of one-half and one-third prof bonus to relevant rolls and probably rework skills and saves while youre at it to iron out the bigger issues.

Or keep ability and remove their influence from combat stats. OD&D almost didn't use stats at all in the rules. No minimums for any class till the Paladin was added in the Greyhawk supplement, and my memory is that that and Blackmoor were where all the bonuses to various things were (including defining prime requisites for various classes).

IIRC Men and Magic your ability scores were pretty much just something for the GM to use to adjudicate things that didn't have specific rules.

So, have ability scores, but they only influence ability rolls (not attacks, damage, or saves). Attacks, damage, saves, spells prepared, and whatever else other than checks that adds an attribute all get a +2 at level 1, and you can spend an ASI to increase this three times. Half feats are half cost, you can take two that add to different abilities at once but there's no ability effect.

If you are a level 10 fighter with 5 strength, then obviously, you've found a way to fight despite that, level 10 should tell you roughly how good you are in a fight without caring about a bunch of other numbers. Similarly for a 5 int wizard. Your class skills will be bad, but that's sort of expected.

Roll 3d6 in order while you're at it.

Bahamut7

2017-12-13, 05:32 PM

I am going to recommend that you look at 4e D&D. The system managed to balance using all 6 different scores very well across the classes (not all were perfect). Some notable examples from 4e that seem to ring true with your post.

AC: If you wore light armor or less, your AC would be boosted by otherwise your Dex or INT. This implied that your reactions allowed you to avoid damage or your INT made you smart enough to place yourself in better positions to avoid damage.

Reflex save (DEX save in this version): This was boosted by otherwise your DEX or INT mod for the same reasons above.

Will Save: Wisdom or Charisma boosted this.

Fortitude Save: STR or CON.

In this edition the only score to be limited on for general things was CON. This was because any increase in CON modifier was retroactive meaning that if you increased it, your HP would go up with that increase for each level. While some classes used CON as a secondary stat for ability boosts, it was a few.

Honestly, you could grab a lot of stuff from 4e and meld into your 5e games and no one would notice. A lot of things in this edition are from 4th just reworded. 4th edition had "powers" or class abilities, attacks, spells, etc. These were split between At-will (like Cantrips), Encounter (recharge on a short rest), and Dailies (Recharge on a long rest). I use the minion rules all the time in my games.

Unoriginal

2017-12-13, 05:40 PM

krugaan

2017-12-13, 05:55 PM

To be fair, bodybuilers are still strong. Just not as strong as they would be with a different training.

Yeah. They tend to do single joint exercises instead of compound movements, I think. And zero core.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-12-13, 06:00 PM

Or keep ability and remove their influence from combat stats. OD&D almost didn't use stats at all in the rules. No minimums for any class till the Paladin was added in the Greyhawk supplement, and my memory is that that and Blackmoor were where all the bonuses to various things were (including defining prime requisites for various classes).

IIRC Men and Magic your ability scores were pretty much just something for the GM to use to adjudicate things that didn't have specific rules.

So, have ability scores, but they only influence ability rolls (not attacks, damage, or saves). Attacks, damage, saves, spells prepared, and whatever else other than checks that adds an attribute all get a +2 at level 1, and you can spend an ASI to increase this three times. Half feats are half cost, you can take two that add to different abilities at once but there's no ability effect.

If you are a level 10 fighter with 5 strength, then obviously, you've found a way to fight despite that, level 10 should tell you roughly how good you are in a fight without caring about a bunch of other numbers. Similarly for a 5 int wizard. Your class skills will be bad, but that's sort of expected.

Roll 3d6 in order while you're at it.
That's actually not a bad way to reduce the impact of stats without completely removing them. I like it, though I'd start with a +3 "combat" score. Remember to remove the multiclass requirement while you're at it and you're probably good to go.

Feuerphoenix

2017-12-13, 06:32 PM

Dex is the most overrated thing in the system.

Partially because Initiative bonus is the most overrated thing in the universe, but people still use it as the main reason DEX IS GODSTATLOL.
- It's still mostly reliant on the D20.
-The most relevant bonuses you get to it are from class features, not your Dex score.
-Going first is actually detrimental to a lot of builds (see: rogue needing an adjacent ally to proc sneak attack/melee character needing enemy to close before attacking).

Also the Dex skills suck unless your DM lets Acrobatics take the place of Athletics (many idiots do this unfortunately). Stealth is only truly useful on a few character types (although extremely useful for those types) and Sleight of Hand/Acrobatics checks are extremely rare. If the DM is using D&D for it's intended purpose (dungeons and wilderness exploration) Athletics is by far the best skill in the game.

Obviously encumbrance has been killed in 5e. The base rules make it a non-factor and were only put in the PhB for tradition. Use the variant. Please. Otherwise, point for Dex.

The stats are balanced. People just look at the short list of things Str modfies and the slightly longer list of things Dex modifies and proclaims Dex GODSTAT instead of actually thinking about the table and how important each of the items on each list is.

And I always thought perception is the go to skill...

Well you have some good points. Most classes don't rely that much on initiative (martials), but on the other hand a good initiative is almost a free attack. Especially if your enemy is not in position and is unable to react. Usually it is not game winning, but it may prevent you from wasting ressources.

When it comes to acrobatics...well yes you got a point there. But DEX offers the better overall value, as it gives you access not only to melee, but also to ranged weapons. And I think this is what seals the deal in combination that a strong DEX value allows for a great resistance against all kinds of AoEs or traps. With strength...well you are just strong....

CantigThimble

2017-12-13, 07:03 PM

And I always thought perception is the go to skill...

Well you have some good points. Most classes don't rely that much on initiative (martials), but on the other hand a good initiative is almost a free attack. Especially if your enemy is not in position and is unable to react. Usually it is not game winning, but it may prevent you from wasting ressources.

When it comes to acrobatics...well yes you got a point there. But DEX offers the better overall value, as it gives you access not only to melee, but also to ranged weapons. And I think this is what seals the deal in combination that a strong DEX value allows for a great resistance against all kinds of AoEs or traps. With strength...well you are just strong....

If you ever need to carry something heavy, quickly in one of your campaigns (like, an unconscious party member or two.) then you will regret not having at least one high strength party member.

Bahamut7

2017-12-13, 07:07 PM

And I always thought perception is the go to skill...

Well you have some good points. Most classes don't rely that much on initiative (martials), but on the other hand a good initiative is almost a free attack. Especially if your enemy is not in position and is unable to react. Usually it is not game winning, but it may prevent you from wasting ressources.

When it comes to acrobatics...well yes you got a point there. But DEX offers the better overall value, as it gives you access not only to melee, but also to ranged weapons. And I think this is what seals the deal in combination that a strong DEX value allows for a great resistance against all kinds of AoEs or traps. With strength...well you are just strong....

No Dex is still the "god" stat but not because of initiative, but the other reasons. It boosts:

-Initiative
-AC
-Common save
-Can be used in place of STR for attacks
-Can be used in place of athletics for saves or grapples

STR has more background type boosts such as encumbrance and physical endurance (but even this could be replaced with CON).

Basically, it is easier to become SAD with DEX instead of STR.

greenstone

2017-12-13, 07:10 PM

So something I've noticed is that character optimization has lead to a sort of cookie cutter method of choosing your ability scores.

That seems like it comes from a game where there is only one pillar.

If the game spends equal time on all three pillars of the game then cookie cutter builds become less common.

Except for WIS, perhaps? Almost everyone wants a good Perception score.

LeonBH

2017-12-13, 07:45 PM

Talamare

2017-12-13, 07:52 PM

How do powerlifters and NFL defensive linemen have low Con?

I agree with you on the skepticism of NFL Defensive Linemen at least

I guess he took to understand Con as Endurance for Marathons, and forgot to think about of Endurance as Resiliency

ad_hoc

2017-12-13, 07:56 PM

How do powerlifters and NFL defensive linemen have low Con?

Hyper specialization, at least for powerlifters.

Strongmen are a bit different but for powerlifters there is no point in training anything other than 1 rep max. Everything needs to be in service of that.

This is especially true for the people who are in the max weight category and don't need to keep their weight in check. They get bigger but their heart remains the same size.

LeonBH

2017-12-13, 08:06 PM

I agree with you on the skepticism of NFL Defensive Linemen at least.

I guess he took to understand Con as Endurance for Marathons, and forgot to think about of Endurance as Resiliency

Yeah, Con isn't only about endurance.

Hyper specialization, at least for powerlifters.

Strongmen are a bit different but for powerlifters there is no point in training anything other than 1 rep max. Everything needs to be in service of that.

This is especially true for the people who are in the max weight category and don't need to keep their weight in check. They get bigger but their heart remains the same size.

But Constitution doesn't only represent endurance. It also represents the ability to push beyond normal limits.

Yes, that powerlifter doesn't have as much endurance as a marathon runner; but if you put the marathon runner (who has a high Con) in the same room as a powerlifter and ask them to lift a heavy weight (that both can lift) and maintain it for as long as possible, there's a fair chance the powerlifter will win.

The thought behind it is, yes, powerlifters train to get high strength, but that doesn't come at the cost of their constitution. They have more constitution than your typical human; and in some respects, they have more constitution than an endurance runner .

Greywander

2017-12-13, 09:04 PM

Woo-ee, I really kicked over the proverbial ant mound, didn't I?

When you do choose to optimize or min/max your character you run the risk of shutting your character out of large portions of the adventure.

As a player I largely police myself on optimization to make sure I end up with a decent character that can do more than "one thing really well and nothing else"
Optimization isn't the same thing as min/maxing. An optimized character is that that is able to do the most things the best way they can. A min/maxed character does one thing extremely well, a balanced character does most things passably well, while an optimized character strikes the balance and does several things very well. Generally, min/maxing requires being terrible at everything except the one thing you want to do, and while it is a form of optimization, it's not really what I would consider "optimal" by any stretch. I can be very good at one thing, and find it preferable to make myself pretty good at a lot of other things rather than making myself slightly better at the one thing.

I have to wonder why the Int/Wis/Cha benefits are only of any use to spellcasters.
They're useful to skill monkeys, but from what I can tell skill monkeys are in a kind of limbo position in 5e. On the one hand, everyone has some usefulness with skills (which is good), but most classes seem to either stack skill proficiency with ability scores they already need for class feature (wizard and INT skills, sorcerer and CHA skills, etc.) or simply gravitate toward the few really good skills (Perception, Stealth, and Athletics). Also, proficiency trumps a high ability score (+6 vs. +5), so generally if you want to be good at a skill without investing in that ability score you can just get the skill proficiency (which is also good).

What you have written up, at least for Int/Wis/Cha, should be included as Class Features, not general features of Ability Scores.
Funny story, I cribbed most or all of these from a homebrew class I've been working on. It's the 14th level class feature, which I do agree is much more appropriate.

Simple Fix:

Warlocks are int casters, not cha casters.
I've heard this was the intention before playtesters wanted it switched to CHA.

Step 1 - Introduce Agility as a Physical Stat, Agility affects Initiative and AC
I've always been bothered by the apparent indistinction between "macro" dexterity (acrobatics etc.) and "micro" dexterity (manual dexterity etc.).

strength actually gets you more places through athletics than dex gets you through acrobatics. climbing and jumping are both under strength, not dex. dex lets you balance along narrow or slippery ledges, sure, but I wouldn't count that as more important than jumping and climging. Of course, by the time you have access to party-wide flight, none of that matters at all.

both strength and dex let you get out of bindings. Dex can pick a lock, or strength can force it. dex resists a ton of attacks, dex saves are super common, but str saves also apply to a bunch of things. dex can apply straight to your ac with light armor, but strength can let you wear heavy armor that's just as good. most of the time.

Honestly, if your party actually uses encumbrance rules, I'd say the two are near close enough to equal, with encumbrance balancing out stealth. But most parties ignore encumbrance ime, so... *shrug*
I probably do undervalue Strength, due to gravitating more toward casters and DEX type characters. STR is a convenient dump stat for most of my character concepts, but I've heard variant encumbrance goes a long way to making STR necessary again. I've also seen a lot of guides for martial classes sing the praises of Athletics.

Step 1: Make 9 stats instead of 6. 3 social, 3 mental, 3 physical.
A while back, I concocted an attribute system for homebrew system I never ended up finishing. The way it worked was that you had three core attributes: body, mind, and heart. Each of these had three sub-attributes that corresponded to power, finesse, and resilience. Each of these also had three sub-attributes that also corresponded to power, finesse, and resilience. In total the system had 39 attributes, but you would have only needed the core three to play.

I really liked the split attributes that, iirc, Skills and Powers introduced in 2nd Ed. Strength was Power and Endurance, Dex was Aim (or agility) and Balance, Constitution was Health and something... sorry, dredging memories from 20+ years ago, I've learned too many interim systems in between...

Point was, you had dials for each attribute - A high Strength could represent a lot of Power, so you hit harder, but low Endurance so you ran out of steam quickly (or vice versa - you could hit things for days, but it was death by a thousand cuts).
That was kind of the point of my system of 39 attributes. You could be physically very fit, but could then decide whether to be stronger or more dexterous, or, if dexterous, if you wanted better agility, reflexes, or coordination, etc. I still think it's a neat system and I might flesh it out at some point.

My 2c:

It can be done, and it can be done in a balanced way.

The most annoying thing for me is that strong character are encouraged to be clumsy and vice-versa.

But it can be fixed.

Like you said, you ALWAYS use DEX to-hit and STR to damage.

HOWEVER, you have "finesse weapons" - you ALSO add your DEX to damage - and "brute" weapons - you add TWICE your STR modifier to damage. Off-hand lets you add the worst of the two.
Ah, this makes a bit more sense. Although, it means that finesse and brute/mighty weapons are strictly superior to non-finesse weapons due to being able to add two ability scores to your damage instead of one.

I don't think coming up with whole new powers for casters is needed or useful.

I would add some benefits for INT - for everyone - and maybe a little something for CHA. Some extra languages, tools or even skills at 13/15/17 or 14/16/18 seem appropriate (since full caster would have 20 in their main stat anyway, that would give them some encouragement).

Yes, it would make wizard slightly more powerful... but not that much.
That does sound more reasonable as well.

No Dex is still the "god" stat but not because of initiative, but the other reasons. It boosts:

-Initiative
-AC
-Common save
-Can be used in place of STR for attacks
-Can be used in place of athletics for saves or grapples

STR has more background type boosts such as encumbrance and physical endurance (but even this could be replaced with CON).

Basically, it is easier to become SAD with DEX instead of STR.
As I said in the OP, STR builds, while not totally unappealing, only edge out DEX builds if you have access to heavy armor. With medium armor I'd say it's a toss up of whether to go STR or DEX, but with light armor or no armor, it's no contest.

That seems like it comes from a game where there is only one pillar.

If the game spends equal time on all three pillars of the game then cookie cutter builds become less common.

Except for WIS, perhaps? Almost everyone wants a good Perception score.
Not quite true. Playing a rogue? Get DEX skill proficiencies, now you can be good at DEX stuff out of combat. Playing a wizard? Get INT skill proficiencies. Playing a paladin? Get CHA skill proficiencies. It's not always about combat, but since you use the same stats for both in and out of combat, you might as well stack everything so you can be great at both.

Or keep ability and remove their influence from combat stats. OD&D almost didn't use stats at all in the rules.

So, have ability scores, but they only influence ability rolls (not attacks, damage, or saves). Attacks, damage, saves, spells prepared, and whatever else other than checks that adds an attribute all get a +2 at level 1, and you can spend an ASI to increase this three times. Half feats are half cost, you can take two that add to different abilities at once but there's no ability effect.

If you are a level 10 fighter with 5 strength, then obviously, you've found a way to fight despite that, level 10 should tell you roughly how good you are in a fight without caring about a bunch of other numbers. Similarly for a 5 int wizard. Your class skills will be bad, but that's sort of expected.

Roll 3d6 in order while you're at it.

That's actually not a bad way to reduce the impact of stats without completely removing them. I like it, though I'd start with a +3 "combat" score. Remember to remove the multiclass requirement while you're at it and you're probably good to go.
This is an interesting idea. I'll have to give this one more thought. I do like having options when it comes to customizing my character, though, so maybe you would be allowed to choose between a few bonuses, such as a bonus to AC, damage, initiative, spells prepared, etc.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-12-13, 09:22 PM

This is an interesting idea. I'll have to give this one more thought. I do like having options when it comes to customizing my character, though, so maybe you would be allowed to choose between a few bonuses, such as a bonus to AC, damage, initiative, spells prepared, etc.
As I read it, at least, you effectively have one "Combat" Ability that gets used for attacks, AC, save DCs, spells prepped-- anything that's not a ability check. You can use ASIs to boost that, or to pick feats.

Talamare

2017-12-13, 10:00 PM

Dex is the most overrated thing in the system.

Partially because Initiative bonus is the most overrated thing in the universe, but people still use it as the main reason DEX IS GODSTATLOL.
- It's still mostly reliant on the D20.
-The most relevant bonuses you get to it are from class features, not your Dex score.
-Going first is actually detrimental to a lot of builds (see: rogue needing an adjacent ally to proc sneak attack/melee character needing enemy to close before attacking).

Also the Dex skills suck unless your DM lets Acrobatics take the place of Athletics (many idiots do this unfortunately). Stealth is only truly useful on a few character types (although extremely useful for those types) and Sleight of Hand/Acrobatics checks are extremely rare. If the DM is using D&D for it's intended purpose (dungeons and wilderness exploration) Athletics is by far the best skill in the game.

Obviously encumbrance has been killed in 5e. The base rules make it a non-factor and were only put in the PhB for tradition. Use the variant. Please. Otherwise, point for Dex.

The stats are balanced. People just look at the short list of things Str modfies and the slightly longer list of things Dex modifies and proclaims Dex GODSTAT instead of actually thinking about the table and how important each of the items on each list is.
Going first is not detrimental. If you go first you essentially get an additional attack. Not to mention potentially remove a threat before it is capable of attacking.
It's not like going first is a punishment for the rest of your team. So there is no reason why you shouldn't try to go first.

The biggest thing about Dex is that it does it all
Attack, Damage, AC, The Most Common Save, Initiative, Arguably the 2nd most used skill in the game.

The worst part, I don't even need to really make an argument here. Even new players to the system almost immediately realize that Dex is the best stat in the game.

ad_hoc

2017-12-13, 10:10 PM

Yes, that powerlifter doesn't have as much endurance as a marathon runner; but if you put the marathon runner (who has a high Con) in the same room as a powerlifter and ask them to lift a heavy weight (that both can lift) and maintain it for as long as possible, there's a fair chance the powerlifter will win.

That is only true because the powerlifter is stronger, not because they have more stamina.

If I can lift 450lbs once, I can lift 400lbs 4 times, and can lift 200lbs many times. Even if I can't even jog for 15 minutes.

Lifting heavy weight is an anaerobic exercise, running long distances is an aerobic exercise. The powerlifter trains for the former, the marathon runner for the latter.

There is a point where the weight is light enough that the marathon runner will win because their cardiovascular system is well trained while the powerlifter's is likely to be ignored.

Typically the body starts to use more aerobic resources than anaerobic ones after the 5 minute mark; though this varies by individual and with training specificity and level.

Talamare

2017-12-13, 10:14 PM

ad_hoc

2017-12-13, 11:03 PM

The point some people are raising is that...
Con means Marathon
Con means Resistant

If that power lifter can take bigger/harder hits because of his increased muscles, then he has higher Con. Which means by DnD rules, he has now also magically become a marathon runner.

What about powerlifting means that they can take bigger/harder hits?

LeonBH

2017-12-14, 12:15 AM

That is only true because the powerlifter is stronger, not because they have more stamina.

If I can lift 450lbs once, I can lift 400lbs 4 times, and can lift 200lbs many times. Even if I can't even jog for 15 minutes.

Lifting heavy weight is an anaerobic exercise, running long distances is an aerobic exercise. The powerlifter trains for the former, the marathon runner for the latter.

There is a point where the weight is light enough that the marathon runner will win because their cardiovascular system is well trained while the powerlifter's is likely to be ignored.

Typically the body starts to use more aerobic resources than anaerobic ones after the 5 minute mark; though this varies by individual and with training specificity and level.

Con is not synonymous with aerobic exercise. Con governs the ability to stay awake without rest and without food or water, as well as the ability to resist getting drunk. These things are not in the domain of aerobic exercise.

Having a higher muscle mass helps resist drunkenness because alcohol is absorbed into lean muscle better than fat. And someone with a high strength, like a powerlifter, has a lot of those muscles. It follows that the powerlifter should have a better Con than the endurance runner for the purposes of resisting alcohol.

Resisting hunger and dehydration has to do with how much energy you're able to store in your body. Give it a long enough fast and your body starts to cannibalize itself, converting both fat and muscle to a fuel source. It stands to reason that if you're fatter, you are more resistant to this (and powerlifters have a healthy amount of fat).

Finally, who says Con can't be anaerobic endurance, too?

ad_hoc

2017-12-14, 12:45 AM

Con is not synonymous with aerobic exercise. Con governs the ability to stay awake without rest and without food or water, as well as the ability to resist getting drunk. These things are not in the domain of aerobic exercise.

Having a higher muscle mass helps resist drunkenness because alcohol is absorbed into lean muscle better than fat. And someone with a high strength, like a powerlifter, has a lot of those muscles. It follows that the powerlifter should have a better Con than the endurance runner for the purposes of resisting alcohol.

Resisting hunger and dehydration has to do with how much energy you're able to store in your body. Give it a long enough fast and your body starts to cannibalize itself, converting both fat and muscle to a fuel source. It stands to reason that if you're fatter, you are more resistant to this (and powerlifters have a healthy amount of fat).

Finally, who says Con can't be anaerobic endurance, too?

Muscle has a very minor effect on how drunk you will get.

Biggest factors:

1. Genetics. This governs how much alcohol dehydrogenase a person produces. (There are many other factors both not known by me or probably by anyone.)
2. When you last ate/ratio of macro-nutrients you ate
3. Overall health
4. Overall weight

How aerobically trained a person is does determine how long they can maintain exertion without exhaustion. Being anaerobically trained has little impact on this beyond being less likely to develop cardiovascular diseases (though powerlifters and strongmen can develop those or other illnesses for other reasons)

FWIW I have a degree in exercise physiology, a personal trainer certification, I follow a powerlifter exercise routine, and I have a number of chronic illnesses which leave me prone to disease and I fatigue easily.

I would be an example of someone with a high strength/low con ratio.

The other thing to keep in mind is that D&D is not nuanced. Human attributes are all lumped into 1 of 6 categories. Still, strength and con should be separate. They are different and one can be high with the other low.

LeonBH

2017-12-14, 01:19 AM

Muscle has a very minor effect on how drunk you will get.

Sure, but all else being equal, the powerlifter still resists alcohol better than the endurance runner, implying higher Con for that purpose.

Biggest factors:

1. Genetics. This governs how much alcohol dehydrogenase a person produces. (There are many other factors both not known by me or probably by anyone.)
2. When you last ate/ratio of macro-nutrients you ate
3. Overall health
4. Overall weight

If we're comparing a hungry, sick, and small powerlifter to a tall, well-fed, and healthy endurance runner, then we're stacking the deck to one side.

We should compare a large, well-fed, healthy powerlifter to a large, well-fed, healthy endurance runner with similar genetics. And we will find that all things being equal, the powerlifter resists alcohol better.

How aerobically trained a person is does determine how long they can maintain exertion without exhaustion. Being anaerobically trained has little impact on this beyond being less likely to develop cardiovascular diseases (though powerlifters and strongmen can develop those or other illnesses for other reasons)

Right, it does. But why does Con not also govern anaerobic endurance? I agree it makes sense for aerobic endurance but why not its cousin, too?

FWIW I have a degree in exercise physiology, a personal trainer certification, I follow a powerlifter exercise routine, and I have a number of chronic illnesses which leave me prone to disease and I fatigue easily.

I would be an example of someone with a high strength/low con ratio.

The other thing to keep in mind is that D&D is not nuanced. Human attributes are all lumped into 1 of 6 categories. Still, strength and con should be separate. They are different and one can be high with the other low.

I appreciate you sharing this. In your experience, would you say increasing your strength has come at the price of reducing your endurance (ie, you have less endurance now than before you started your powerlifting routine)? Setting aside the chronic illnesses which can plague anyone, including the endurance runner.

ad_hoc

2017-12-14, 02:30 AM

Right, it does. But why does Con not also govern anaerobic endurance? I agree it makes sense for aerobic endurance but why not its cousin, too?

Anaerobic endurance is a bit of an oxymoron. By its definition if it can be endured then it must be aerobic. We're talking a maximum of a few minutes here, at some point a person ends up using more aerobic energy than anaerobic. (Anaerobic training will have a positive increase on muscle endurance such as by raising the lactate threshold, but this is not the kind of endurance we usually mean when we say endurance - it is still short lived)

There are 3 ways the body produces ATP. ATP is what gives us the energy we need it to live.

Phosphocreatine - This lasts up to 10 seconds. It is the fastest way to produce ATP and thus energy
Anaerobic - Glycolysis produces ATP inefficiently and produces waste products which create an oxygen deficit. It is fast though.
Aerobic - This is ATP production using oxygen

After a heavy weightlifting set a person will breathe heavily. This is because they have an oxygen deficit. They did not use oxygen to lift the weight because doing so is too slow, so now they need to essentially make back that deficit.

I appreciate you sharing this. In your experience, would you say increasing your strength has come at the price of reducing your endurance (ie, you have less endurance now than before you started your powerlifting routine)? Setting aside the chronic illnesses which can plague anyone, including the endurance runner.

No, apart from maintaining my overall health (sedentary lifestyles bring with them a lot of risk factors) and eagerness to perform activities, my actual endurance is about the same. This is likely more to do with my genetic issues than a typical person will experience. Still, strength will increase more rapidly than endurance when engaging in anaerobic exercise.

I do know that at the extreme end powerlifters do run into problems. Some of it is certainly to do with the drugs they take, probably particularly HGH (human growth hormone) though I know little about that (above my pay grade as a lowly undergraduate).

Largely it's because their hearts remain the same size yet they get bigger and engage in activities which puts stress on their body/heart. This is why very large/tall people tend to have shorter lifespans.

The more well trained I am and thus the more I lift, the longer it takes for me to recover from that lift. More muscle is engaged so I have a bigger oxygen deficit. Even when the most I could lift was 200lbs, after the set I would recover in a minute or two. Now that I can lift over 400lbs it takes me 5-10 minutes to recover from that set. I have used more glycogen stores so I need to rest longer.

That said, apart from extreme cases, I am sure there is a correlation between strength training and increased health/constitution. A big one is probably selection bias. Those who are naturally strong and healthy tend to pursue activities such as sports which utilize those attributes. Training usually contains both anaerobic and aerobic exercises and typically would increase both strength, constitution, and dexterity. (Intelligence too as concentration and energy increase. Charisma as confidence is raised, etc)

I think most characters in D&D who have high strength should have high constitution as well. My only point really is that it is entirely reasonable to have a character with a high strength and a (relatively) low constitution.

It is physiologically possible, just not common.

Greywander

2017-12-14, 02:47 AM

Somehow this thread has turned into a discussion of how the Strength and Constitution ability scores relate to real-world athletes/body builders.

Something that was mentioned previously was to remove ability scores entirely, or decouple them from combat/magic usage. This made me think of another system I've been working on, and how I handled attributes in that. Some background info: this is supposed to be for a computer game rather than pen-and-paper, and also you would be using a single resource pool to represent health, stamina, mana, etc. Originally, there were four attributes that each had related skills, but over time I started de-emphasizing their impact on skills and focusing on how it affected your resource pool.

One attribute just made your resource pool bigger.

One made your actions/spells consume less resources.

One allowed you to continue to push yourself farther when your resource pool was low (by default, if you drop below 50% you wouldn't be able to run, cast spells, attack, etc.).

The last increased the regeneration speed of your resource pool.

For D&D, it might make sense to do something similar, creating new attributes to govern nothing but combat and magic, while the existing ability scores are used solely for ability checks (in which case I might merge STR and CON or drop them entirely). I know I mentioned this in my last post, but afterwards I remembered this other system where I'd already done something similar, so I just wanted to share that as an example of how it can make sense. For D&D it's a matter of figuring out what should or shouldn't be an option and giving them values that make each choice comparable in a class-neutral setting (rogues, for example, would value accuracy over damage because most of their damage comes from sneak attack, whereas non-rogues would have a more balanced view of accuracy and damage).

LeonBH

2017-12-14, 03:09 AM

Anaerobic endurance is a bit of an oxymoron. By its definition if it can be endured then it must be aerobic. We're talking a maximum of a few minutes here, at some point a person ends up using more aerobic energy than anaerobic. (Anaerobic training will have a positive increase on muscle endurance such as by raising the lactate threshold, but this is not the kind of endurance we usually mean when we say endurance - it is still short lived)

There are 3 ways the body produces ATP. ATP is what gives us the energy we need it to live.

Phosphocreatine - This lasts up to 10 seconds. It is the fastest way to produce ATP and thus energy
Anaerobic - Glycolysis produces ATP inefficiently and produces waste products which create an oxygen deficit. It is fast though.
Aerobic - This is ATP production using oxygen

After a heavy weightlifting set a person will breathe heavily. This is because they have an oxygen deficit. They did not use oxygen to lift the weight because doing so is too slow, so now they need to essentially make back that deficit.

Anaerobic endurance may be an oxymoron, but it exists nonetheless. You can subject your muscles to tension or contraction for an extended period of time, and different people will have different capacities to maintain that tension or contraction.

But your answer doesn't answer the question: why isn't Constitution the governing score of anaerobic endurance? Are you saying Constitution is only about producing ATP through aerobic respiration? Why?

How can it be that pushing your body beyond your limit (when you've depleted all your energy reserves via anaerobic respiration) isn't governed by Constitution?

No, apart from maintaining my overall health (sedentary lifestyles bring with them a lot of risk factors) and eagerness to perform activities, my actual endurance is about the same. This is likely more to do with my genetic issues than a typical person will experience. Still, strength will increase more rapidly than endurance when engaging in anaerobic exercise.

I do know that at the extreme end powerlifters do run into problems. Some of it is certainly to do with the drugs they take, probably particularly HGH (human growth hormone) though I know little about that (above my pay grade as a lowly undergraduate).

Largely it's because their hearts remain the same size yet they get bigger and engage in activities which puts stress on their body/heart. This is why very large/tall people tend to have shorter lifespans.

The more well trained I am and thus the more I lift, the longer it takes for me to recover from that lift. More muscle is engaged so I have a bigger oxygen deficit. Even when the most I could lift was 200lbs, after the set I would recover in a minute or two. Now that I can lift over 400lbs it takes me 5-10 minutes to recover from that set. I have used more glycogen stores so I need to rest longer.

That said, apart from extreme cases, I am sure there is a correlation between strength training and increased health/constitution. A big one is probably selection bias. Those who are naturally strong and healthy tend to pursue activities such as sports which utilize those attributes. Training usually contains both anaerobic and aerobic exercises and typically would increase both strength, constitution, and dexterity. (Intelligence too as concentration and energy increase. Charisma as confidence is raised, etc)

I think most characters in D&D who have high strength should have high constitution as well. My only point really is that it is entirely reasonable to have a character with a high strength and a (relatively) low constitution.

It is physiologically possible, just not common.

I agree with you here. It is possible to have someone who is strong but sickly, and it can come from a lot of factors. You point out drugs and genetics. You've also presented yourself as an example.

My point was all the physical attributes are tied together. As you say, when you train, you usually increase strength, dexterity, and constitution simultaneously (along with intelligence, charisma, and wisdom, too). So, pointing out powerlifters and NFL linemen as typical examples of people with "high strength/low constitution" is not correct, as Mister_Squinty has done.

I was also pointing out that Constitution as a concept in D&D doesn't really represent only one thing, anyway. Yes, it governs how much stamina you have, as you can see in the Forced March rules. But it also governs you pushing yourself beyond your limit, and that is a mindset just as much as it is a physical attribute. Certain qualities of Constitution (as a D&D concept) increases as a powerlifter trains, because Constitution (again, as a D&D concept) is not just about aerobic endurance.

Basically, the simulation doesn't accurately represent real life. The Matrix has glitched.

Mister_Squinty

2017-12-14, 10:11 AM

How do powerlifters and NFL defensive linemen have low Con?

Because NFL defensive linemen are only on the field half the time, don't usually play kickoff or punt special teams, many rotate in every other play and still get winded?

Like powerlifters (and sprinters), they focus on short bursts of intense power instead of consistent levels of sustained effort.

Talamare

2017-12-14, 10:13 AM

Because NFL defensive linemen are only on the field half the time, don't usually play kickoff or punt special teams, many rotate in every other play and still get winded?

Like powerlifters (and sprinters), they focus on short bursts of intense power instead of consistent levels of sustained effort.

Yes, but getting winded ins't the only thing Con does.

If they are able to take more hits than other people on their team then they have insanely high Con, which is basically their jobs. To take the hits so the QB doesn't

Mister_Squinty

2017-12-14, 10:23 AM

So, pointing out powerlifters and NFL linemen as typical examples of people with "high strength/low constitution" is not correct, as Mister_Squinty has done.

In my defense, the original question was whether there was ever an example of a high ST/Low CN person. Powerlifters, Sprinters, and Defensive Linemen all contain examples of this type. I was too general in that I should have said that not *all* powerlifters, etc are examples of such.

Mister_Squinty

2017-12-14, 10:29 AM

Yes, but getting winded ins't the only thing Con does.

If they are able to take more hits than other people on their team then they have insanely high Con, which is basically their jobs. To take the hits so the QB doesn't

Defensive linemen are responsible for hitting, not protecting, the QB. Exterior linemen, especially, are rarely called upon to get beat up for the good of the team. :)

That said, given that Hit Points are now an abstract concept beyond the amount of physical damage a person can absorb, I think a high ST/CN ratio is a valid general description for the DL. If you can get one with both, great. But, given the requirements of the position, a High ST, lower CN player is better suited than an average ST/CN player.

ZorroGames

2017-12-15, 11:54 AM

I tend not to build optimized characters as a design goal. After I have a character in my head then I tweak to make them semi-optimized just like in real life we try and make ourself as optimized as our body/mind/soul allow.

LordEntrails

2017-12-15, 12:47 PM

So something I've noticed is that character optimization has lead to a sort of cookie cutter method of choosing your ability scores.
Yep, this is an unavoidable consequence of character optimization. Someday you may switch to rolling abilities, and then maybe rolling them in order. But eventually you will find that as long as you insist on optimizing your characters you will limit your character builds.

Someday you may choose to ignore the optimization of a character and just learn to enjoy playing a fun themed character and stop worrying if they are optimized.

Cynthaer

2017-12-15, 03:10 PM

The biggest thing about Dex is that it does it all
Attack, Damage, AC, The Most Common Save, Initiative, Arguably the 2nd most used skill in the game.

The worst part, I don't even need to really make an argument here. Even new players to the system almost immediately realize that Dex is the best stat in the game.

So, I basically agree that Dex is the most overloaded stat out of the six. But is that really a problem?

Even the OP's complaint wasn't that Dex is overpowered per se, just that optimized builds are "cookie cutter" because the choice between Str and Dex for martials boils down to "am I in melee wearing heavy armor (or a Barbarian)?"

Personally, I feel the game overall is fundamentally balanced, even though the stats themselves aren't symmetrical. You've got a few stats with general defense/utility for everyone (Dex/Con/Wis) and a few stats that are basically just for offense so you either want them or you don't (Str/Int/Cha).

Having some dumpable stats are necessary to avoid forcing every character to go 14/12/12/12/12/12, and the only truly undumpable stat is Con. When you look at classes and builds across the game as a whole, the only stat I see getting short-changed is Int, which is basically just for Wizards and a couple of half-casting subclasses. And that's only because playtesters really wanted Warlocks to be Cha instead of Int, so if I really wanted to give every stat some prominence, I would just let Warlocks be Int again and call it a day.

Talamare

2017-12-15, 03:39 PM

So, I basically agree that Dex is the most overloaded stat out of the six. But is that really a problem?

Even the OP's complaint wasn't that Dex is overpowered per se, just that optimized builds are "cookie cutter" because the choice between Str and Dex for martials boils down to "am I in melee wearing heavy armor (or a Barbarian)?"

Personally, I feel the game overall is fundamentally balanced, even though the stats themselves aren't symmetrical. You've got a few stats with general defense/utility for everyone (Dex/Con/Wis) and a few stats that are basically just for offense so you either want them or you don't (Str/Int/Cha).

Having some dumpable stats are necessary to avoid forcing every character to go 14/12/12/12/12/12, and the only truly undumpable stat is Con. When you look at classes and builds across the game as a whole, the only stat I see getting short-changed is Int, which is basically just for Wizards and a couple of half-casting subclasses. And that's only because playtesters really wanted Warlocks to be Cha instead of Int, so if I really wanted to give every stat some prominence, I would just let Warlocks be Int again and call it a day.

The game is probably not even balanced

But since there is no competitive aspects between players, it doesn't matter.

There is also no content difficult enough to require an incredibly optimized party

edit

Even if there was, since there is no possible ranking system or form of proof that you did it without cheating, it again makes it not matter

Cynthaer

2017-12-15, 04:22 PM

The game is probably not even balanced

But since there is no competitive aspects between players, it doesn't matter.

There is also no content difficult enough to require an incredibly optimized party

edit

Even if there was, since there is no possible ranking system or form of proof that you did it without cheating, it again makes it not matter

To clarify, I meant 5e is "balanced" across stats. First, in the sense that every stat except Con and Int is commonly used in character builds, and second, in the sense that none of the stats are tied to classes or builds that are noticeably better or worse than others.

Mostly this is just because 5e's inter-class balance is much better than 3.5e's, so you don't have "class tiers".

Talamare

2017-12-15, 04:29 PM

To clarify, I meant 5e is "balanced" across stats. First, in the sense that every stat except Con and Int is commonly used in character builds, and second, in the sense that none of the stats are tied to classes or builds that are noticeably better or worse than others.

Mostly this is just because 5e's inter-class balance is much better than 3.5e's, so you don't have "class tiers".

I mean, that more because all stats do essentially the same thing
They all increase your accuracy, they all increase your damage, they all add a bit of RP flavor when doing skill checks.

I wouldn't really call that balanced. Balanced implies that they are different but equally powerful.
They just made them all the same, with a different name.

Which is where the foundation of Dex being overpowered comes into play. Since all stats are basically clones, but Dex ALSO gets a ton of additional advantages.

Note - Assume that every 'all stat' statements included an "except con"

krugaan

2017-12-15, 08:48 PM

I mean, that more because all stats do essentially the same thing
They all increase your accuracy, they all increase your damage, they all add a bit of RP flavor when doing skill checks.

I wouldn't really call that balanced. Balanced implies that they are different but equally powerful.
They just made them all the same, with a different name.

Which is where the foundation of Dex being overpowered comes into play. Since all stats are basically clones, but Dex ALSO gets a ton of additional advantages.

Note - Assume that every 'all stat' statements included an "except con"

I dunno about "they all do the same thing", but some are clear outliers.

WIS - primary caster stat, primary save, perception
CHA - primary caster stat, all social skills (cough), most classes used
INT - primary caster stat, ... investigation ...?

STR - athletics, str based melee
CON - the more you have, the less you die, primary save, etc.
DEX - AC, initiative, dex based melee, most ranged weapon attacks, stealth, primary save...

So yeah, dex sticks out kind of a lot. Int is really low on the totem pole too.

strangebloke

2017-12-16, 12:14 AM

I think that if you're going to play D&D, you have to accept the six ability scores that come with it (even though the divisions are not meaningful). Otherwise, you should take another system that already does what you want D&D to do.

That said, I think Constitution is a silly ability score. It does nothing for anything but HP and Con saves, making it the only passive ability score. You should nix it and merge it into Strength or Dex. It already makes sense that a person with superior physical attributes also has more bodily stamina and resilience. Can you imagine an 8 Con 20 Str character? Or 8 Con 20 Dex character? How did they train their body to that extent with such low Con anyway?

I really like this. HP is too good as it stands right now. There is no good character build that will ever have less than a 12 in Con. That's boring. You can do without DEX, you can't do without CON.

Roll CON into STR except for the HPs, I'd say, and lower point buy by ~7 or so. Give everyone a default +2 HP per level.

Mister_Squinty

2017-12-16, 11:02 AM

I really like this. HP is too good as it stands right now. There is no good character build that will ever have less than a 12 in Con. That's boring. You can do without DEX, you can't do without CON.

Well, to be fair, people under a certain basic level of health would not survive well in the conditions adventurers are put in. Being healthier than the average metahuman would seem to be a basic requirement for the daring doers of dangerous deeds.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-12-16, 11:31 AM

I really like this. HP is too good as it stands right now. There is no good character build that will ever have less than a 12 in Con. That's boring. You can do without DEX, you can't do without CON.

Roll CON into STR except for the HPs, I'd say, and lower point buy by ~7 or so. Give everyone a default +2 HP per level.
Except now everyone will invest in Str instead. If you want to ditch Con, go all the way and just make HD bigger

LeonBH

2017-12-16, 11:37 AM

Well, to be fair, people under a certain basic level of health would not survive well in the conditions adventurers are put in. Being healthier than the average metahuman would seem to be a basic requirement for the daring doers of dangerous deeds.

I think he meant the design space was not enhanced by the presence of Con. Everyone will have 12 Con (an exaggeration, but just to illustrate the point). It's not really a choice if you want to dump Con or not, because you just don't dump Con if you want a semi-optimized adventurer.

Except now everyone will invest in Str instead. If you want to ditch Con, go all the way and just make HD bigger

Well, rolling HP into Str but AC into Dex makes it a question of "HP and damage" vs "AC, saves, and initiative". Not all high strength characters wear armor, like the Barbarian. Though it does make Str a tertiary stat for everyone as well in that case.

Talamare

2017-12-16, 12:17 PM

strangebloke

2017-12-16, 01:11 PM

Except now everyone will invest in Str instead. If you want to ditch Con, go all the way and just make HD bigger

All that I'm changing about STR is that I'm making it a bigger save. I don't think that, by itself, that completely imbalances the game. Although... yeah, I guess CON saves are pretty much the most important saves in the game. It would be a big tradeoff for most casters though. They'd either have to dump Dex and have a crappy AC, dump DEX and multiclass, or dump STR and have a crappy concentration check and initiative. It'd be a wild tradeoff for sure.

For martials who already have heavy armor proficiency there would be no reason to go DEX really. That's the problem.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-12-16, 01:31 PM

All that I'm changing about STR is that I'm making it a bigger save. I don't think that, by itself, that completely imbalances the game. Although... yeah, I guess CON saves are pretty much the most important saves in the game. It would be a big tradeoff for most casters though. They'd either have to dump Dex and have a crappy AC, dump DEX and multiclass, or dump STR and have a crappy concentration check and initiative. It'd be a wild tradeoff for sure.

For martials who already have heavy armor proficiency there would be no reason to go DEX really. That's the problem.
I don't think there's a major balance issue, although Str would be a huge save. It would be a conceptual one-- every adventurer having a high Con is repetitive, but understandable; everyone having a high Str would be much stranger. Presumably you're be keeping an approximately equal point buy.

Eric Diaz

2017-12-16, 02:22 PM

I dunno about "they all do the same thing", but some are clear outliers.

WIS - primary caster stat, primary save, perception
CHA - primary caster stat, all social skills (cough), most classes used
INT - primary caster stat, ... investigation ...?

STR - athletics, str based melee
CON - the more you have, the less you die, primary save, etc.
DEX - AC, initiative, dex based melee, most ranged weapon attacks, stealth, primary save...

So yeah, dex sticks out kind of a lot. Int is really low on the totem pole too.

While I agree that DEX is a bit too powerful, it is not that terrible, in fact:

AC = Str or Dex, but Str is a bit better (+1 AC IIRC)
Melee = Str or Dex, but Str is a bit better
Ranged = Str or Dex, Dex is A LOT better because of sharpshooter
Saves = Dex is better
Skills = Dex is a bit better
Initiative = Dex only
Encumbrance = Str only, although the fact that you're wearing armor might allow your Dex PC to carry more stuff, so...
Grappling = Str only
Defend from grappling = Str or Dex

Same for Int and Cha.

Talamare

2017-12-16, 02:30 PM

While I agree that DEX is a bit too powerful, it is not that terrible, in fact:

AC = Str or Dex, but Str is a bit better (+1 AC IIRC)
Melee = Str or Dex, but Str is a bit better
Ranged = Str or Dex, Dex is A LOT better because of sharpshooter
Saves = Dex is A LOT better
Skills = Dex is better
Initiative = Dex only
Encumbrance = Str only, although the fact that you're wearing armor might allow your Dex PC to carry more stuff, so...
Grappling = Str only
Defend from grappling = Str or Dex

Same for Int and Cha.
Fixed a few things also

Stealth = Dex is A LOT better

Why is different separate than just Skills? Because for most skills as long as there is a single success, the party is fine.
Perception check? Someone in the team sees it, and they tell everyone?
Knowledge check? Someone in the team knows it, and they tell everyone?
Charisma check? Someone in the team woos it, and they te... whatever
Strength check? Someone in the team can break it down or pull it up or whatever

Stealth check? While there are times you only need to send 1 person to do the action... There are also plenty of times that the whole team needs to sneak by
Strength is at a severe penalty, since not only do they not have the inherent Stealth skill stat, but their Armor also penalizes.

Altho also
Shove = Str only
Shove is cool

krugaan

2017-12-16, 03:27 PM

My idea involved adding Agility to the Physical Triad

I was thinking about making it so that Con would be a derived stat

STR+AGI+DEX = Con

Tho, if I did that. I would want for the mental stats to have a similar mechanic

INT+WIS+CHA = ???

Tho, I don't know what would be a good mechanic for this stat

Confidence?

How is agility seperate and distinct from dexterity?

The statistics as they are now are already paired: str/cha, int/dex, con/wis.

If anything, making the new constitution a mix of str / dex / wis / cha seems thematically appropriate to me, but doesn't really fit the layout as it is now.

Unoriginal

2017-12-16, 04:00 PM

Stealth = Dex is A LOT better

You're overestimating Stealth a lot, here. While it has its use, no doubt, it's pretty hard to pull off.

Why is different separate than just Skills? Because for most skills as long as there is a single success, the party is fine.

If you're separating Stealth from the rest of the Dex skills, then no, Dex isn't better than Str for skills.

Eric Diaz

2017-12-16, 04:10 PM

Fixed a few things also

Stealth = Dex is A LOT better

Why is different separate than just Skills? Because for most skills as long as there is a single success, the party is fine.
Perception check? Someone in the team sees it, and they tell everyone?
Knowledge check? Someone in the team knows it, and they tell everyone?
Charisma check? Someone in the team woos it, and they te... whatever
Strength check? Someone in the team can break it down or pull it up or whatever

Stealth check? While there are times you only need to send 1 person to do the action... There are also plenty of times that the whole team needs to sneak by
Strength is at a severe penalty, since not only do they not have the inherent Stealth skill stat, but their Armor also penalizes.

Altho also
Shove = Str only
Shove is cool

I see your point, but Stealth is not necessarily that good. I assumed you're using group rolls for stealth, yes? Something I don't recommend. Now, Stealth is obviously important for rogues etc, but some cahrachters WANT to be attacked to avoid damage to their allies, so the rogues can use stealth while the barbarian draws the heat.

Also: strength might be even better than stealth in the "everyone needs to succeed" department. Climbing, jumping over a chasm, etc.

Failed your stealth check? Okay, you can fight while the rogue back-stabs. Failed athletics? Got some bad news for you...

Eric Diaz

2017-12-16, 04:16 PM

ABOUT MAKING A SINGLE ABILITY FOR STR AND CON:

It can certainly be done. Get rid of the "hit die" idea; now everyone gets 1d10. Fighters and barbarians will obviously have more HP due to STR+CON.

Maybe DEX gets +1 AC while unencumbered to balance things somehow.

The only downside is that INT and CHA become even worse, since DEX, STR/CON and WIS are obviously way better for saves (and perception, etc).

Of course, many people suggest merging INT and CHA... Something I don't really like since the "socially inept genius" is a very common trope in D&D-style fantasy - unlike the "marathon runner versus bodybuilders" that are not really D&D archetypes IMO.

strangebloke

2017-12-16, 04:30 PM

snip
I think its unfair to say that perception is a skill you only need one of. Having multiple high investigation and perception mods means that you stand a very good chance of seeing the thing you need to see, regardless of RNG.

Conversely, the whole party is never going to have high enough stealth to sneak around effectively, if you're doing checks in this way.

Let's say that you have five party members. Let's say that every one of them has high dex and proficiency. Let's say they're trying to sneak past a guard with a passive perception of 14, and they each have a net stealth score of +8 (+3 DEX, +5 Prof) Each of them needs to roll a 6 or higher, which means that the probability of them sneaking by is (3/4)^5 which is less than 1/4. I would strongly argue that investing in that stat and skill for that reason is not a great decision

At most, you need two stealthy guys in the party. More is just kind of silly, since the more people that are stealthing, the worse stealth is.

So I would actually argue that DEX skills aren't particularly awesome. Acrobatics is weak, sleight of hand is good but highly situational, and stealth is strong or weak depending purely on how your DM arbitrates it, but you never really need more than a couple of guys who are good at stealth.

Conversely, Athletics is great for everyone/anyone to have. Being able to pin a wizard down in a key moment is always great.

Talamare

2017-12-16, 04:35 PM

I think its unfair to say that perception is a skill you only need one of. Having multiple high investigation and perception mods means that you stand a very good chance of seeing the thing you need to see, regardless of RNG.

Conversely, the whole party is never going to have high enough stealth to sneak around effectively, if you're doing checks in this way.

Let's say that you have five party members. Let's say that every one of them has high dex and proficiency. Let's say they're trying to sneak past a guard with a passive perception of 14, and they each have a net stealth score of +8 (+3 DEX, +5 Prof) Each of them needs to roll a 6 or higher, which means that the probability of them sneaking by is (3/4)^5 which is less than 1/4. I would strongly argue that investing in that stat and skill for that reason is not a great decision

At most, you need two stealthy guys in the party. More is just kind of silly, since the more people that are stealthing, the worse stealth is.

So I would actually argue that DEX skills aren't particularly awesome. Acrobatics is weak, sleight of hand is good but highly situational, and stealth is strong or weak depending purely on how your DM arbitrates it, but you never really need more than a couple of guys who are good at stealth.

Conversely, Athletics is great for everyone/anyone to have. Being able to pin a wizard down in a key moment is always great.
Fair, and I'll acknowledge that it is DM dependent. Since some DMs do group checks, while others do minimal successes.

but let's be honest... Grapples won't really pin down a Wizard who can just Misty Step away

strangebloke

2017-12-16, 05:01 PM

Fair, and I'll acknowledge that it is DM dependent. Since some DMs do group checks, while others do minimal successes.

but let's be honest... Grapples won't really pin down a Wizard who can just Misty Step away

If he has Misty Step prepared.

I'm fond of throwing my guys up against spellcasters with weird/partially expended spell lists.

PhoenixPhyre

2017-12-16, 05:07 PM

If he has Misty Step prepared.

I'm fond of throwing my guys up against spellcasters with weird/partially expended spell lists.

Yeah. I made a whole set of thematic lists (pulling from across all spell lists). Mainly for use with NPCs--I can say "He's a spiritualist" or "She's all about purification" or "He's a plant-guy" and have a set of related spells. It's always rubbed me the wrong way to think that NPCs (especially, but PCs also) intrinsically know about all the possible spells of each level and can pick from them. Why would a cleric of life, spring, and small fuzzy creatures (a real deity in my world) have access to blight, animate dead or other such spells?

Edit: and although I understand why classes have different spell lists for PCs (history and balance, mostly), I don't like to tie my NPCs (who generally don't have PC class levels) to those same lists. Since I hand-curate the spells for each, balance isn't a concern and I don't like thinking of classes as being an actual thing (as opposed to a convenient name for a bundle of pre-set abilities for game purposes).

LeonBH

2017-12-16, 06:53 PM

INT+WIS+CHA = ???

SOP. Sophistication.

krugaan

2017-12-16, 07:07 PM

SOP. Sophistication.

Haute murderhoboing. I like it.

LeonBH

2017-12-16, 07:19 PM

Haute murderhoboing. I like it.

Why I do say, my good sir *adjusts monocle* I believe in fireballs in your face. *sips tea*.

coyote_sly

2017-12-16, 07:27 PM

JellyPooga

2017-12-16, 07:37 PM

The bigger skill issues re STR/DEX and skill checks is..."Can I use Acrobatics for that?“. It comes up more frequently than just about every other skill check except maybe Perception, and most Dex users are just straight up allowed to ignore even the stuff that's *in the description of Athletics* using Acrobatics.

That's more of an issue with GM's being afraid to say "no" (often the correct answer to such questions) to their players, for fear of being labelled a "Bad GM", than it is with the skill itself.

Beelzebubba

2017-12-16, 07:54 PM

I think that if you're going to play D&D, you have to accept the six ability scores that come with it (even though the divisions are not meaningful). Otherwise, you should take another system that already does what you want D&D to do.

That said, I think Constitution is a silly ability score. It does nothing for anything but HP and Con saves, making it the only passive ability score. You should nix it and merge it into Strength or Dex. It already makes sense that a person with superior physical attributes also has more bodily stamina and resilience. Can you imagine an 8 Con 20 Str character? Or 8 Con 20 Dex character? How did they train their body to that extent with such low Con anyway?

I dunno, when I was in my 20's I bench pressed 300+ pounds, had incredible short bursts of stamina, but got sick all the friggin' time

If I missed a few nights of sleep I got a cold, got infections constantly, and if I partied like my friends did I just got ground down much easier

I can see high STR low CON being a thing

Especially a dedicated power lifter who eats tons of burgers to get his calories and has a big fat belly - I've seen them in the gym plenty

Unoriginal

2017-12-16, 08:03 PM

Aren't Baseball players the typical high STR low CON?

LeonBH

2017-12-16, 08:16 PM

How did those various athletes get to where they were or are, without the resilience to make it there?

Didn't the climb up also require a certain amount of constitution, regardless of the end result we're displayed with?

krugaan

2017-12-16, 08:25 PM

Why I do say, my good sir *adjusts monocle* I believe in fireballs in your face. *sips tea*.

Sounds like jolly good fun, chap.

*sips tea*

Mmmmm, yes. Quite.