Good Multiclass options for Cleric

[Umi]

I've been playing a 3.5 campaign recently and I'm rather disappointed in how cleric is working out for me. I'm looking into multiclassing to try and have more fun with the campaign as at this point I feel like a meat shield with buffs. I would prefer to avoid Paladin and Fighter and Barbarian, as the roles are already covered and being a Melee tank, is what is pushing me away from the class, to begin with.
My ability scores are STR 17 DEX 10 CON 18 INT 10 WIS 20 CHA 18 and the character is just hitting level 4. Should I stick it out for higher level spells or start multiclassing now? My dm also stated if I were to die I could return with a different character of the same level so I might be able to suicide if there's truly no good options left.

[weckar]

Try to stick it out until lv 5. When 3rd level spells come online you will start outshining the beatsticks.

Out of curiosity: what domains do you have?

[Elrak]

I would suggest having a look into one of the cleric handbooks (I recommend googling for "AfterCrescent's 3.5 Cleric Handbook")

Aside from that though, a cleric can be build to cover different roles /niches if the tanking is not quite your speed. A lot can also be done with based on your spell selection. My current cleric for example (Cloistered Cleric) is focused on summoning using conjure ice beast, summon monster and spells like ice slick, darkness and silence to provide some battlefield control and support from the backline. Outside of combat he is basically the groups know it all with ranks in most every knowledge skill and making use of the spell "lore of the gods".

[BlackOnyx]

I'm looking into multiclassing to try and have more fun with the campaign as at this point I feel like a meat shield with buffs.


Should I stick it out for higher level spells or start multiclassing now?


I'd say it depends on what you're looking for. The nice thing about clerics is that they have *a lot* of options. With the massive number of spells they gain access to at every level, their playstyle can change dramatically based on what you prep for the day.


Sick of fighting on the front lines yourself? Try using summons. (Conjure Ice Beast from Frostburn can be surprisingly effective at low levels.)


Looking to support your allies? Start using (one of many) area buffs.


Looking to hinder enemy casters? Cast silence.


Having troubles making difficult skill checks? Divine Insight has got you covered.


In short, I'd recommend taking a look through some cleric spell compilation lists online. See if there's any new spell combos that might fit together for the playstyle/character image you're looking for. (Feat choice can also make a huge impact. Here's looking at you, Trickery Devotion.)


Once you get into higher levels, prestige classes can help you develop your specialty even further. One that I'm a big fan of is Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion. Gives you some additional skill points & modest bonuses with full casting and turning progression.


Of course, I don't mean to say you should force yourself if you're not enjoying it. Just maybe see about giving it another look over. Clerics tend to have a lot more options than most other classes.


As a sidenote, I'd specifically recommend looking through cleric spells from sources other than the SPC or PHB. Depending on what you're interested in, books like Frostburn, Libris Mortis, and Complete Champion have some really fun lists to draw from.

[BlackOnyx]

Aside from that though, a cleric can be build to cover different roles /niches if the tanking is not quite your speed. A lot can also be done with based on your spell selection.


Ha, oops. Looks like I took too long to type up my post.



My current cleric for example (Cloistered Cleric) is focused on summoning using conjure ice beast, summon monster and spells like ice slick, darkness and silence to provide some battlefield control and support from the backline. Outside of combat he is basically the groups know it all with ranks in most every knowledge skill and making use of the spell "lore of the gods".


My brother.

[radthemad4]

I've been playing a 3.5 campaign recently and I'm rather disappointed in how cleric is working out for me. I'm looking into multiclassing to try and have more fun with the campaign as at this point I feel like a meat shield with buffs. I would prefer to avoid Paladin and Fighter and Barbarian, as the roles are already covered and being a Melee tank, is what is pushing me away from the class, to begin with.
My ability scores are STR 17 DEX 10 CON 18 INT 10 WIS 20 CHA 18 and the character is just hitting level 4. Should I stick it out for higher level spells or start multiclassing now? My dm also stated if I were to die I could return with a different character of the same level so I might be able to suicide if there's truly no good options left.
Clerics usually don't want to multiclass at all, since that'd delay higher level spells, though they do want to PRC as soon as possible. The cleric spell list has Save or Sucks (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=391), Summons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) and general utility (albeit, the next day since the cleric list has a very large number of niche spells). If you don't want buffs, you could just prepare those kinda spells instead. But anyway, one of the best things about the clerics is that though many of their spells are pretty niche, they can prepare spells from the whole list. Have fun splatbook diving (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/FindSpell.php).

[Telonius]

If you'd prefer to hang back and snipe, the Zen Archery feat (from Complete Warrior) can let you use Wisdom instead of Dex for ranged attacks.

Personally I'm having a lot of fun with a Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple. Obviously won't work for all Clerics thanks to the alignment restrictions on Warlock, but it can help turn you into more of a Face and gives you access to a bunch of nice class skills (including Use Magic Device).

[Eldariel]

Certainly, if you're disappointed in the Cleric, you should first look into the options the class offers. Clerics automatically know all the spells on their spell list and can prepare any set on any given day so it's a small task to switch styles completely; and only slightly bigger to switch your deity or ideal for different domains. Retraining your feats is probably the most involved process but even that should take you only some in-game weeks - unless you can hire someone to just Psychic Reformation you to do it immediately albeit at a cost.

Cleric can literally do anything, depending on your domain choices and foci. Multiclassing in another class is rarely the answer; casters get exponentially more options by leveling up their casting but you have to start from scratch with literally anything else. Thus, the first thing to do is to look into spell options. Darrin made an awesome post about the various more obscure Cleric spells of some potential here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514702-good-cleric-spells&p=21691649&postcount=5#post21691649) - Dark Way as a 2nd level Wall of Force is superb for instance. I'd like to add the usual suspects; Silence, Shatter and Divine Insight [Spell Compendium] are all very useful 2nd level spells. Rigor Mortis [Heroes of Horror] is also a great save-or-die (you can Coup de Grace helpless targets) without the [Evil] tag troubling Heartache . Elkar's and BlackOnyx's posts in this thread also highlights some of the interesting options.

You could pick also build further towards a different focus. Summon Monster spells are the best Core-option for doing "something a little different" from the usual Warrior Cleric. But pure caster/controller Cleric is also doable, though unless you have access to a wide array of books, you're more reliant on your Domains. Player's Handbook II has the option of Spontaneous Domain Casting to replace your ability to spontaneously cast Cures (boring) with the ability to spontaneously cast spells from one of your Domains. Then just pick a versatile domain with a variety of powerful different off-list spells like Trickery, Transformation [Magic of Eberron] or Spell [Spell Compendium] and enjoy the unlimited spontaneous access to those options. Complete Mage also has Divine Magician to add one abjuration/divination/necromancy spell per level from the Wizard-list to your repertoire giving up one of your domains. This is pretty awesome for a caster Cleric, picking up debuffs like Ray of Enfeeblement or Enervation, utility like Arcane Sight and so on.

If your deity has a good list of different interesting domains, there's also a 2nd level spell called "Substitute Domain" [Complete Champion] that allows trading between domains to access the abilities/spells you need on any given day. But this depends on the domains your deity offers; remember that non-core books have lots of domains that aren't by default assigned to given deities so you might want to use common sense with your GM to figure out which deities should offer which domains. Which in turn influences which options you have on this front.

Depending on your alignment, Animate Dead and Desecrate might make a mighty addition to your toolbox (Zombie Dragons for instance are awesome and can be used as mounts that also have a great breath weapon). Evil or Neutral Negative Energy Channelers indeed have a wonderful number of options; there's also a first level spell called "Heartache" [Book of Vile Darkness] that amounts to a save-or-die if there's a nearby ally to deliver Coup de Grace while the enemy is helpless. If you're Evil, the Corrupt spells from Book of Vile Darkness are also interesting options. As a Cleric, you can Lesser Restoration the damage away easily enough. There are also some interesting one target damage spells available such as Darkbolt [Book of Vile Darkness/Lords of Madness] (the best option is in Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings) & Flesh Ripper [Book of Vile Darkness].

If you're Good, Book of Exalted Deeds has Sanctified Spells which cost stats but are quite potent and you can Lesser Restoration the stat damage away so you can also make use of those. Additionally, Good Clerics have [b]lots of great Prestige Class options; this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541317-Double-Duty-Cleric) does a decent job of covering some of those - though it's by no means exhaustive. Off the top of my head it e.g. lacks Sunmaster [Lost Empires of Faerun]. Ones that grant extra domains like Church Inquisitor, Seeker of the Misty Isles, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, etc. are a great way to expand your options for instance. Hathran/Dweomerkeeper are just incredibly powerful and enhance your casting. There's also Sovereign Speaker for a ton of domains but that loses two levels of casting so it's not really worth it.


EDIT: Oh yeah, and if you want to do skill monkey stuff, go Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cloisteredCleric) and if necessary, use feats/domains to gain the desired skills in class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills) and go on being a Caster Skill Monkey. You can further complement this with the spells Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar, and more generally your Divinations and buffs. This can add an axis to the character that adds some options and versatility in an unusual direction.

Remember that Cleric is the ur-class: you can pretty much make a Cleric into anything and it's just about the most customizable class in the game, ranging from the frail but cunning Rogue/Wizard to the mighty Clebarian and everything in-between. Thus, if you don't like Cleric, change it into a different Cleric until you find the flavour of Cleric that is to your liking. Be it any combination of buffing, debuffing, save-or-dieing, summoning, divining, utility casting, ranged fighting, melee fighting, generic minionmancy, roguing, barding, in general skilling or whatever, Cleric can indeed do it when you put your mind to it and they're actually really good at anything if you so desire.

Ask for advice with anything in particular right here and someone will certainly be happy to help.

[Darrin]

Personally I'm having a lot of fun with a Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple.

I was going to suggest this. Cleric 4 is pretty much dead-on the break point for Cleric 4/Warlock 1/Eldritch Disciple 10. Hopefully your deity has the correct alignment.

Clerics have a pretty versatile spell list, but sometimes you have to go bookdiving for some of the more interesting spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514702-good-cleric-spells&p=21691649#post21691649).

Some other roles to consider:

Summoner: Clerics aren't quite the summoning powerhouses on Team Treehugger, but they can be pretty darned capable at it. The conjure ice beast line gives them a bit of a leg up over wizards as it gives them access to the SNA list. However, summoners have a reputation for taking up more time: battles last longer, digging through books for stat blocks, and you're putting a bunch of fiddly bits on the battlefield where you need to keep track of HPs, AC, AoOs, etc. If you're feeling frustrated about sharing the meatbag role with your frontline fighters, then summoning more meatbags you have to keep track of probably isn't going to help.

Blaster: Low-level clerics don't have a lot of blasty-spells, so that may be part of what's frustrating you. Eldritch Disciple helps fix this. Taking a Reserve feat could also help. I like Acid Splatter, but there aren't a lot of 2nd-level [acid] spells (unless you have the Slime domain or Energy Substitution), so you may have to wait for a 3rd-level spell like venomfire.

BFC: This is a bit tougher, as you don't have quite the versatility of Team Treehugger or Team WINzard, but you do have a few gems in your spell list. Ice slick/snowshoes is a great combo to start with. Dark way can be used as a "wall" spell. 3rd level is a little sparse, although holy storm and haboob are usually good picks. Once you get to 4th level spells, you've got more interesting options, including the excellent shutdown spell wall of sand.

[Umi]

I was going to suggest this. Cleric 4 is pretty much dead-on the break point for Cleric 4/Warlock 1/Eldritch Disciple 10. Hopefully your deity has the correct alignment.



So I actually forgot to mention but I haven't chosen to apply my fourth level yet so currently I'm a level 3 cleric with a level waiting to be applied.

[Umi]

If you're Good, Book of Exalted Deeds has Sanctified Spells which cost stats but are quite potent and you can Lesser Restoration the stat damage away so you can also make use of those. Additionally, Good Clerics have lots of great Prestige Class options; this thread does a decent job of covering some of those - though it's by no means exhaustive. Off the top of my head it e.g. lacks Sunmaster [Lost Empires of Faerun]. Ones that grant extra domains like Church Inquisitor, Seeker of the Misty Isles, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, etc. are a great way to expand your options for instance. Hathran/Dweomerkeeper are just incredibly powerful and enhance your casting. There's also Sovereign Speaker for a ton of domains but that loses two levels of casting so it's not really worth it.


I'm really dissapointed that I went with a good cleric because all the evil cleric spells you listed sound like they're exactly what I want but the Prestige Classes all sound really interesting too so I'll live. I think if I were to pick from what you mentioned I wanna look into the PRCs that will buff my casting since magic casting is what I'm leaning towards. I'm just gonna have to look through a million books to find the spells I need.

[Umi]

If you'd prefer to hang back and snipe, the Zen Archery feat (from Complete Warrior) can let you use Wisdom instead of Dex for ranged attacks.

Personally I'm having a lot of fun with a Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple. Obviously won't work for all Clerics thanks to the alignment restrictions on Warlock, but it can help turn you into more of a Face and gives you access to a bunch of nice class skills (including Use Magic Device).

Both of your suggestions sound really interesting, what alignment restrictions would I have on Warlock?

[Eldariel]

I'm really dissapointed that I went with a good cleric because all the evil cleric spells you listed sound like they're exactly what I want but the Prestige Classes all sound really interesting too so I'll live. I think if I were to pick from what you mentioned I wanna look into the PRCs that will buff my casting since magic casting is what I'm leaning towards. I'm just gonna have to look through a million books to find the spells I need.

Look through Darrin's post that he and I both linked. It's an excellent listing of particularly the better lower level spells, though do mind my addendums in Silence, Shatter, Divine Insight & Rigor Mortis (it's a level 2 version of Heartache). You can already do a lot of offensive casting as a Cleric; Conjure Ice Beast II can create 2d6 ice damage aura for rounds/level in very durable Ice Beast Monstrous Centipedes for example but what Clerics really excel at is save-or-dies and save-or-loses...as long as you find the right ones. They have reasonable battlefield control casting too.

Also see if you could switch one of your domains for the Divine Magician alternative class feature. This allows adding one spell to your normal list from Arcane Abjurations/Divinations/Necromancies. Handbook exists here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1329). There are a lot of good options and this is welcome extra versatility for a caster Cleric - notably you don't have to prepare these spells in your Domain slots so you can have both, Domain spell and these prepared in your main slots. The other matter is which domains you picked and which you have access to (Substitute Domain means you can easily and always switch your Domains to any offered by your deity...and if you can't find any good ones, become disillusioned and abandon your deity having some other one to pick you up).

[Telonius]

Both of your suggestions sound really interesting, what alignment restrictions would I have on Warlock?

Warlocks need an alignment of "Any evil or any chaotic." That means you could be CG, CN, CE, LE, or NE. Clerics have to stay within one alignment step of their deity, so if your deity is LG, you're out of luck. LN deities would be okay if you're LE; NG deities would be okay if you're CG; True Neutral deities would be okay if you're CN or NE.

[Eldariel]

Clerics are indeed excellent Archers and Zen Archer is a great way to go about it. Sadly you lack the 13 Dex needed for Rapid Shot, which is kind of a key feat for any kind of an archer though so that would take a workaround (probably rising Dex with some items to pick it up), but other than that it can be great. And with your Strength, your shots can hurt. Your stats are quite stellar and Clerics are probably the best Archers in the game particularly if they use Divine Metamagic [Complete Divine] + Persistent Spell [Complete Arcane] to persist their buffs allday thus not needing actions in combat to get your stats up (they're fine without it too as well though). Complete Champion Devotions are also a great complement to the base class's combat prowess. Then again, attacking with a bow each round every combat can get a bit monotonous as well. But you don't have the slots to cast each round until very late and it's generally a good way to use the other actions, taking appropriate attack actions and in your case, either a bow or a melee weapon would do.

[Rebel7284]

I don't like Paragnostic Apostle. While the class abilities are reasonable, the whole membership part is a huge pain. Even if you just dip for a level or two, you still have significant membership dues and have to interrupt your adventures every few months to go to meetings.

Some possibilities:
- Clerics can make for some very good Shadowcraft Mages. You need at least one domain that gives you Silent Image and you need to be a part of a shadow cabal (see adaptation section), but you can find one (or create one) that doesn't have fees...
Once you become a Shadowcraft Mage, your spell list is greatly expanded. Also, if you combine Divine Metamagic with Heighten Spell, you may be able to cast spells above your level a few times a day! Tricky illusionist super-cleric is not a common theme, but is almost certainly fun to play.

- Archer Cleric has already been mentioned and works well with or without Divine Metamagic.

- Clerics can enter Malconvoker, which is one of the best summoning classes in the game and is one of the few where lost caster progression is worth it. Also Thaumaturgist fills a similar role.

- Dweomerkeeper: This is a very powerful class for a divine magician. You can enter with no lost casting if you take the Magical Training feat. Throwing around supernatural spells is pretty silly.