Mike Mearls on Mind Flayers and Cosmology: the different worlds of the Material Plane

[Unoriginal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAJRyZ-MYN8

A very interesting video.

The talk on Mind Flayers is interesting, though with few new info, but Mearls also speak about how space and the different worlds are in the Material Plane, notably in term of space travel and why the rules of magic are different in some worlds.

Eberron get mentioned as one of the worlds, and I think there are several references to Spelljammer.

[Millstone85]

One of the many things I like in VGtM is the mention that some elder brains have a laid-back approach to running a colony, acting mostly as knowledge repositories and advisors. This allows to minimise this really-just-puppets-themselves aspect of mind flayers that Mearls talks about here, if you want illithid politics to matter.

The Spelljammer model, where two known worlds of D&D can share the same Material Plane and be separated by crystal spheres and phlogiston instead of interstellar vacuum, is really growing on me. But Eberron might not be the easiest example to sell the idea.

[furby076]

Mindflayers, different magic types.


Yes, they are working on the mystic class book :smallcool:

[Regitnui]

I've been debating this over at my preferred Eberron fan site, and we've come to the conclusion that a Spelljammer interMaterial system would be much better for the setting than a Planescape attempt. This primarily relies on the modularity of Spelljammer and its lack of assumptions regarding the various crystal spheres.

Firstly, Spelljammer explicitly leaves room for Eberron's unique planar structure. Planescape demands the Great Wheel, making it incompatible with the Orbiting Planes of Eberron. Spelljammer traverses the Material Plane, leaving the various planar systems of the worlds alone; you can crash on Athas without breaking open interplanar portals sealed by the githyanki. As a subset of this, the individual divinities of worlds don't ever have to crossover; there is no Ao outside the FR crystal sphere, and Eberron's entirely godless afterlife only applies in Eberron.

Second, the existence of spelljammers doesn't necessarily change the "tech level" or magic system of a world. While spelljammers sail between crystal spheres in a Star Trek bold exploration, the individual spheres need not necessarily be aware of or possess the ability to create them.

Thirdly, races and classes don't necessarily have to be rewritten. An Aereni elf from Eberron, Sun Elf from FR, and nomadic elf from Dark Sun can all co-exist without all being implied to be from the same primordial Alvis habilis fey. A purple dragon Knight from FR can be comfortably left out of Eberron and Dark Sun.

As a corollary, monsters don't have to all have the same origin either. Mind Flayers and Elder Brains are the creations of Daelkyr (mad fleshwarpers) on Eberron. The Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms fluff says the Mind Flayers appeared in a massive working of magic from the distant future. Who's to say which is right in a Spelljammer setting? (Though the two stories do sync up oddly well...)

And finally, like Magic: the Gathering, the Spelljammer idea allows for infinite modularity. Eberron, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Amethyst Quintessence, Nentir Vale, Primeval Thule and even the Plane Shift worlds can be used and referenced in a Spelljammer setting. If, at any point, AL needs to be on a new world to promote WotC's latest release, the AL parties can be shoved onto a spelljammer ship and sent there.

So if you're the lazy sort and didn't read all of that, I'm much more in favour of a Spelljammer world-linking system than a Planescape one. Though as someone pointed out to me, Sigil can simply be integrated into Spelljammer as the "hub" of all possible crystal sphere travel.

[Millstone85]

Spelljammer traverses the Material Plane, leaving the various planar systems of the worlds aloneMy usual assumption is that Planescape's Great Wheel includes the Material Plane, which is then described by Spelljammer's Phlogiston/spheres model.

What you are offering here is to make the Phlogiston the big picture, in which the Great Wheel, the World Tree, the World Axis, the Orrery and other planar models can be found tied to specific spheres.

I find that messier, but interesting.


Though as someone pointed out to me, Sigil can simply be integrated into Spelljammer as the "hub" of all possible crystal sphere travel.I suppose Sigil could exist in a paradoxical state where it is both floating above the Spire of the Outlands and wherever else you want to put it.

[Regitnui]

My usual assumption is that Planescape's Great Wheel includes the Material Plane, which is then described by Spelljammer's Phlogiston/spheres model.

What you are offering here is to make the Phlogiston the big picture, in which the Great Wheel, the World Tree, the World Axis, the Orrery and other planar models can be found tied to specific spheres.

I find that messier, but interesting.

Why messier? The planes are tied to their specific worlds, so far as I know, which is why you don't find the Faerun gods sitting in Greyhawk planes.


I suppose Sigil could exist in a paradoxical state where it is both floating above the Spire of the Outlands and wherever else you want to put it.

Or the Spire of the Outlands is a Crystal Sphere in and of itself containing only Sigil and portals.

[Naanomi]

I’m curious how the Mind Flayers controlled ‘almost all’ of the infinite Prime Material Plane... historically their arrival was a huge deal (it stopped the Blood War for a while!) but the nature of the Prime makes it virtually impossible to dominate completely without other infinite/Planar influences

[Regitnui]

I’m curious how the Mind Flayers controlled ‘almost all’ of the infinite Prime Material Plane... historically their arrival was a huge deal (it stopped the Blood War for a while!) but the nature of the Prime makes it virtually impossible to dominate completely without other infinite/Planar influences

Especially since the real shock of the mind flayers is that they haven't dominated the Material Plane yet and are just trying to get back to where they will be before. :smalleek: Time Travel is confusing. The Illithid will be in charge at the end of the universe and jumped back from the end of time into the current time. So they are just biding their time until they get back to the world-spanning dominance they will have had...:smallsigh:

My personal favourite little titbit is that the illithids are the only thing that terrifies the aboleths, because in all the genetic memory the aboleth have, stretching back to before the gods, they don't remember anything about the mind flayers before they appeared out of nowhere.

[Naanomi]

I like how their sudden appearance shifted the balance of Evil in the cosmos, so the Blood War stopped to assess the new threat potential... and that the Yugoloth/Baernoloth may have helped orchestrate the Gith rebellion so the Blood War could start up again

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've been debating this over at my preferred Eberron fan site, and we've come to the conclusion that a Spelljammer interMaterial system would be much better for the setting than a Planescape attempt. This primarily relies on the modularity of Spelljammer and its lack of assumptions regarding the various crystal spheres.

<SNIP>

So if you're the lazy sort and didn't read all of that, I'm much more in favour of a Spelljammer world-linking system than a Planescape one. Though as someone pointed out to me, Sigil can simply be integrated into Spelljammer as the "hub" of all possible crystal sphere travel.

Count me in on this one. I'm really not a fan of the Great Wheel as a mandated planar system. It's way too tied to alignment as a thing for one. My own setting would fit nicely into a Spelljammer/crystal sphere model, despite its very different origin and planar cosmology.

In fact, my super-setting (the background in which my setting exists) is, now that I think about it, basically Spelljammer. Each world is a bubble universe (a Dream) set in infinite Void, each with its own laws and planes. A sufficiently advanced traveler could traverse the space between, braving the dangers. One of the antagonist factions did just that--they're a single entity that sends parts of itself into Dreams to awaken them (destroying them). These Awakeners hate the disruption of the Void. Other beings are known to live out there as well.

[Millstone85]

Why messier? The planes are tied to their specific worlds, so far as I know, which is why you don't find the Faerun gods sitting in Greyhawk planes.The way I see it, the planes and worlds are tied to their specific settings or canons, and then larger settings like Spelljammer and Planescape attempt a crossover.

It is like if I asked why the United Federation of Planets didn't do anything against the First Galactic Empire. The simple answer is that nothing Star Trek exists in Star Wars or vice versa. Those are just different works of fiction. But a crossover story could explain that the Empire is in a galaxy far far away from that of the Federation, or that they are in different universes within a shared multiverse.

Now, we may live in a time where D&D is like superhero comics, in that the crossover is so expected that it is no longer seen as one. I am not sure, but when 5e says that Arvandor is part of Arborea (SCAG p6), isn't that essentially Forgotten Realms gods sitting in a Greyhawk plane?


Or the Spire of the Outlands is a Crystal Sphere in and of itself containing only Sigil and portals.It would be neat for a crystal sphere to be called the Spire of the Outlands, but it wouldn't have much to do with the True Neutral Plane of Concordant Opposition.

[Naanomi]

There is a lot of cannon planehopping as part of established lore, so if you don’t have some way of getting from one Plane to another ‘crossover’ style you definetly have some history revision to do (like... Mulhorand... and Waukeen’s Divine Realm/activities during the Time is Troubles... and all the spells named after Greyhawk wizards)... and figure out how Ravenloft works without other worlds to feed it Evil

[KorvinStarmast]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAJRyZ-MYN8 The talk on Mind Flayers is interesting, though with few new info, but Mearls also speak about how space and the different worlds are in the Material Plane, notably in term of space travel and why the rules of magic are different in some worlds.

Eberron get mentioned as one of the worlds, and I think there are several references to Spelljammer. Mearls is an enthusiastic and terrible speaker: too much filler in his speakings on youtube. Maybe while I am watching paint dry I can sit still long enough to listen to this overly long exposition. I do appreciate his creative side, but WoTC needs to up their game on editing and scripting for all of these promos. Learn from the advertising industry how to tell people something in less time. Crawford's promos are slightly more bearable, but could also use better editing and scripting.

So if you're the lazy sort and didn't read all of that, I'm much more in favour of a Spelljammer world-linking system than a Planescape one. Though as someone pointed out to me, Sigil can simply be integrated into Spelljammer as the "hub" of all possible crystal sphere travel. Sort of like DFW or O'Hare as hubs, or Heathrow. :smallyuk:

[Regitnui]

Count me in on this one. I'm really not a fan of the Great Wheel as a mandated planar system. It's way too tied to alignment as a thing for one. My own setting would fit nicely into a Spelljammer/crystal sphere model, despite its very different origin and planar cosmology.

This is precisely why I think the "Spelljammer" would be the perfect linking setting for everything.


I am not sure, but when 5e says that Arvandor is part of Arborea (SCAG p6), isn't that essentially Forgotten Realms gods sitting in a Greyhawk plane?

Or just FR gods in their usual planes, because Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms share the Great Wheel. Whether you can travel from Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms and vice versa using the outer planes or not would really determine whether they're the same Great Wheel or similar planes categorized by the same method (FR and Greyhawk have had sages cross over. Who says the FR planes weren't named by Greyhawk sages?)


It would be neat for a crystal sphere to be called the Spire of the Outlands, but it wouldn't have much to do with the True Neutral Plane of Concordant Opposition.

Sort of like DFW or O'Hare as hubs, or Heathrow. :smallyuk:

The Neutral Sphere of Concordant Opposition, with the City of Portals at its heart, could be a fun place to be. After all, this proposal is only removing the direct connections to the Great Wheel. Why can't the "edges" of the land beneath the city still have massive, sustained alignment portals/manifest zones? The Wheel of Alignment spins around the Axis of Sigil, and it's absolutely integral to keep the nature of free will in the greater multiverse. Still ruled by the Lady of Pain, still an intersphere crossroads riddled with portals to odd places and demiplanes... Just doesn't absolutely add the Great Wheel to everything.

Also, it would be awesome if Ravenloft was some sort of giant Eldrazi/sentient plane that metaphysically attached to spheres, stole a source of great Evil, then detached and "ate" the Evil produced in its "gut" as sustenance? If the source stopped being Evil, like Soth, the Ravenloft "regurgitated" the being and it returned to its native Sphere.

I'm just spitballing here.

[Millstone85]

I am withdrawing my comment about sphere-bound planes being messier. It does make it easier to incorporate each setting's lore, just at the cost of a more complex overall cosmology.

Still, I feel that some planes should be constant across the spheres. For example, assuming that, as Regitnui suggested, Realmspace and Greyspace have similar but distinct wheels of outer planes, I think that a properly modified spelljamming ship should be able to go from one wheel to the other through the Deep Astral.