Making Linguistics a Bigger Part of the Game

[DRD1812]

So I was watching Wonder Woman the other day, thinking about how Steve Trevor infiltrates a German soiree by speaking English with a bad German accent, and I got to thinking about language conventions in RPGs. It can be tough to pull off well (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/well-spoken), but I suspect that a stronger emphasis on linguistics and language barriers could go a long way to helping with immersion.

Question for the board: How do you guys use languages and linguistics in your games? Any tips for making it more compelling than "I cast tongues and never think about it again?"

[lylsyly]

having just made a build that learns every language but Druid by level eight, I will be watching this with interest.

[BWR]

Ars Magica is set in Medieval Europe so it has tons of languages. It lists many of them and how they relate to eachother and how difficult it is to understand one language if you know a related one.
I do something similar for PF. I have people list what languages they know, which dialects (if applicable) - and there is a ton more than simply 'Elven' or 'Dwarven' or 'Common' - and require a Linguistics roll to see how well they can communicate. The closer related the languages, the easier the DC. The better the roll, the more complicated the idea they can get across. Without knowing something very similar or an astronomical roll, they won't be understanding the subtlety of some poetry or writing legal documents, but it can spell the difference between 'me hungry' and 'there is a combined army of several humanoid races with heavy necromantic support, good supply chains and collaborators in the local nobility headed this way, ETA a week or so, and we would like to ally against them'.

This is usually a bit of work to set up but I find it rewarding. That said, we use Tongues and Comprehend Languages a ton simply because there are so many languages around and clear communication is nice to have.

[Crake]

Well, there isn't really a solution to the tongues issue beyond banning it, or banning casters. Even in e6, tongues is still an option, though making it permanent isn't, which is useful.

As for languages, having more than just common is a big first step. Each major nation should have it's own language, with surrounding smaller nations (like ones who's history involves secession from a larger nation) should have dialects or derivitives of these languages. Common still has it's place, but it should no longer be spoken by absolutely everyone, instead, those who's livelihood depends on trade and commerce, such as merchants, shopkeepers and tavern owners, should have common, along with a portion of the populus, but most everyone else should only speak the local language.

How you want to handle learning languages themselves is a different matter though, as languages tend to take a long time to learn, and typically can't be learned very well in a vacuum. I had a DM who wanted us to spend up to 5 skill points per language for a "fluency" gradient, though as you can imagine, 5 skill points for a language is pretty harsh, but at the same time just popping two skill points into speak language (or 1 point into linguistics if it's pathfinder) doesn't really allow for much granularity that you would expect when learning a language. An easy way to handle this is to allow players to spend skill points early, and then instead of learning the languages instantly, the skill points instead open up the character's ability to learn a new language via interaction with speakers of that language and likely some form of education, either from NPCs or fellow party members who speak those languages.

[Hiro Quester]

We play that in order to learn a language you have to spend time with someone who knows that language.

I could see something like a -2 circumstance bonus to bluff and diplomacy being reasonable, for languages you have just learned, and haven't yet had much time to practice (e.g. until you have known them for one level, and spent time practicing your fluency with a fluent character or in a community that speaks that language).

That seems like a reasonable way to being a bit more realism (!) into play regarding languages. If you are into that kind of thing.

[Eldariel]

Well, I'm personally very fond of languages (my major is General Linguistics and I got into roleplaying games in the first place thanks to Tolkien's linguistic interests and studying Quenya) so I've spent a good bit thinking about this. One of the big issues though is that the game defaults to most primates (okay, prime dwellers but I prefer the former) knowing Common, there being no regional languages, all languages being standardized, everybody being able to read and write with equal fluency, learning a new language fully taking mere two skill points (or 1 if it's a class skill), there being no dialectal continuum or variants and no intelligibility issues. Curiously, the game goes into detail about the script used to write each language so spelling systems do exist but they all seem to be alphabetical and acquired automatically with the corresponding language unless you don't know how to read or write (which you have to inherently take as a drawback and you only pay 2 skill points to get it back).

In short, the game goes to great lengths to make sure languages don't matter overtly much since they're kind of considered an excess baggage or a bothersome backdrop. They're made much easier than they're in real life and like most of the skill system (they're essentially a part of the skill system), they're abstracted away. Also, certain spells make languages way too easy; Comprehend Language and Tongues are the obvious ones. The system also made away with most of the secret languages and group languages, leaving only Druidic. In earlier editions, every alignment had one and indeed, the real world is chockful of regional languages of identification and the history is full of secret languages of a plethora of organisations, ways to speak masking your message from the outsiders (though present as a use of Bluff), etc.

Thus, bringing it more to the fore for those interested, you'd need to start with:

- Either remove Common or make it a defective language; a pidgin people more or less understand but can only communicate basic things like desire to buy something, price or such in. Make it kind of shunned - an indicator of being an outsider, an index of lower social class, etc. Common exists for the sole purpose of negating the need to worry too much about language; if you want languages to matter, it needs removal or nerfing (or making it not-so-Common).

- Introduce local languages and their dialectal continuums where mutual intelligibility isn't guaranteed. Most communities in the world are multilingual and most places in the world have cases of language contact that lead to faraway "dialects" (dialect is really a political term, not so much a linguistic one, so I dislike using it but for the lack of better word we'll work with it), so all variants of the same language spoken faraway enough in different kinds of isolation or language contact situations should not be mutually intelligible, at least not fully.

- Introduce different writing and spelling systems that actually matter and take separate effort to learn. I've studied Japanese as a university minor and by far the most bothersome part is learning the Kanji - the logographic signs with some phonetic cues for their Chinese readings but none for the Japanese ones and a great variety of different phonetic realisations and a often a variety of meanings. On the flipside, since they're logographic and thus the meaning is somewhat inherent to the sign rather than the word, you can read some Chinese if you know Japanese kanji even though you don't know how to say the words. Thus, Elvish alphabet and Dwarven runes might be used for the different Elven or Dwarven languages (though it makes no sense for extremely distant communities to use the same system - the writing systems should be local with standard innovation spread patterns much like in the real world) and thus depending on the nature of each spelling system (the major categories are pictograms, logograms, phonetic alphabet/syllabary with variations such as not writing down vowels in Hebrew & various intermediate forms).

- Nerf spells like Tongues and Comprehend Language. Make the comprehension only rudimentary or depend on your command of similar languages, make the automatic translation of Tongues somewhat restricted by e.g. lacking the syntax or the semantic categories of the target language and being forced to speak "a language you know" with the words and the structures of the language you're trying to talk in (if you're wondering what kinds of problems that might cause, try computationally translating a text back and forth between two fundamentally different languages such as Finnish and English) or some such. Make the spells e.g. behave like a computer program.

- Expand and change how the skill system around languages, and language proficiency works. I think this should happen anyways and indeed, I find it one major category I'd delve in if I did a skill system rewrite (different categories, points for each category based on key skills, etc.) E.g. Int states you having problems producing certain kinds of language on certain levels of intelligence but this is not in any way reflected in your ability to learn new languages or speak the ones you do other than abstract restrictions with broad and subjective limitations. There should instead be degrees of proficiency in any given language, the possibility of making mistakes (you could roll linguistics with modifiers from knowing other similar languages) and potentially causing misunderstandings, diplomatic/social rewards for greater language mastery, potentially bonuses to mental checks in general (according to studies, multilingual people are on average more intelligent), and so on. Also, learning to write and to read should be a more engaged endeavour than a couple of skill points and learning to speak and to write a language should be separate. Also languages you don't actively use should fall passive until you spend time activating them, in which case you get penalties to actively producing content in this language but can still understand and read it reasonably well. Different languages could have their differences such as clause order, subject/verb/object (argument structure), method of marking various categories, listed typologically and it should be easier to learn languages similar to your native language or one you know reasonably well, than ones you have no clue about. Languages acquired at birth or at young age should reach a level of mastery that's impossible for languages learned later but with enough work it should be possible to get close.

Thus, something like a four-six point proficiency system for each language (the highest for native, though even there room exists for greater mastery of the language that's useful in e.g. debates and higher studies), perhaps point per rank or so, but some limitation on how many ranks of a language you can learn per...level-up or whatever you choose to tie it to. Separate markers for writing systems with the logographic and pictographic ones being harder but enabling reading text written in other languages but using the same signs. Where you get points for it, a separate matter; segmented skill system with different skill foci and individual skill pools for each of them seems like the best solution to me. A lot of work and needs to be done in lieu of world creation but potentially quite rewarding for appropriately minded people.

EDIT: An addendum, vernaculars should be speech community specific. A city or a town houses any number of sociolects, occupational lects and immigrants' dialects, while smaller villages or hamlets will probably have a fairly cohesive vernacular depending on their population. Remember, there's no mass media and most countries, if they even exist, are fairly loose constructs with no such unifying concept as nationalism so there's no power pulling languages towards the standard language and indeed, probably no standardization (even in the 15th century, "doth" was spelt in any number of means like "doeth, "dooth", "dowth", "deuth", "dott", "doot", etc. - there's a corpus about 15th-16th century English letters that showcases this).

[Telonius]

If you're looking for some homebrew, maybe something like this:

Speak Language is a special case among the skills. You start out fluent in (x) languages, depending on which race you select and whether or not the cultural area is bilingual. For additional languages, you can buy ranks in the language at 1 skill point per rank. You gain increased familiarity with the language based on how many ranks you have in it.

1 rank: Basics only. You can get by in the marketplace, locate the nearest bathroom, get the basic gist of conversations. You can avoid accidentally insulting people's relatives or livestock if you stick to simple sentences. Complex topics are beyond your understanding. It's obvious to native speakers that you aren't from around here.
2 ranks: Conversant. You can carry on normal conversations with other speakers. You might not be able to understand highly technical conversations or idioms that require some cultural background. (Knowledge Local can help you get the meaning). Native speakers will notice your accent, but you are getting better at faking it. With a successful Bluff check (opposed by a Listen check) you can disguise your accent.
3 ranks: Fluent. You can understand the language as well as a native. Your Bluff check to disguise your accent gains a +20.
4 ranks: Native. You no longer need to make Bluff checks to disguise your accent.

[Nifft]

If you remove Common, then the new Common will be the well-known languages of powerful entities: Abyssal / Infernal / Celestial / Primordial / Draconic / Sylvan / etc.

That might be fine.

I wanted to play a game where languages had power, so I removed Common and did some homebrewing.


Languages of Power

Mortals cannot lie in Celestial, and Celestials do not lie, but Devils are not so restricted. Demons cannot understand Celestial, but they know it causes them pain.

Oaths spoken in Infernal are eternally binding, sometimes in horribly literal ways. (Some cultures have dabbled in using Infernal for wedding vows, with dark and disasterous results.)

Mere knowledge of Abyssal by mortals saps their sanity. -2 to all Will saves vs. Tanar'ri, and Tanar'ri make Intimidate checks against speakers with a +4 Circumstance bonus. ("He who gazes into the Abyss..." and all that.) However, against other mortals or Evil outsiders, Intimidate checks made in Abyssal confer a +2 Circumstance bonus to the speaker.

Sylvan is vague and euphamistic, and it's difficult to even ask for directions without also making several indecent proposals. Intimidate checks are impossible. Listeners attempting Sense Motive checks suffer a -4 Circumstance penalty, and speakers gain a +2 Circumstance bonus to any seduction attempts conducted in Sylvan.

Draconic is the language of Arcane magic. Knowing Draconic grants a +2 to Spellcraft checks vs. Wizards, and +2 to Knowlege (Arcana) dealing with things written in Draconic. Also, speakers of Draconic know exactly how weak the language's creators consider humanoids, and therefore gain a +2 Circumstance bonus to Sense Motive checks against dragons, but take a -2 penalty to Will saves vs. a dragon's Frightful Presence.

Druidic oaths are as binding as Infernal ones, but the agency enforcing the oath is far more benign. It is a pity that the language is not more wide spread. However, Druids always trust each other's word, and this lets them to function together more cohesively than their loose organization would seem to allow.

The Elemental Tongues are said to be heard in the dreams of Elemental Princes, so secrets should not be told in Aquan, Auran, Ignan or Terran if there is a large quantity of the corresponding element nearby.

[DeTess]

One thing I think you should be careful of is that it should not be made impossible for interested players to contribute in social situations. So I personally wouldn't remove common, but I might give bonuses to social skills if someone can converse with his mark in the mark's mother-tongue. That way, the social guy that doesn't speak gnomish can still contribute in the quest that occurs during a gnomish ball, but if he'd known gnomish, he'd have had a bit of an advantage.

[Venger]

So I was watching Wonder Woman the other day, thinking about how Steve Trevor infiltrates a German soiree by speaking English with a bad German accent, and I got to thinking about language conventions in RPGs. It can be tough to pull off well (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/well-spoken), but I suspect that a stronger emphasis on linguistics and language barriers could go a long way to helping with immersion.

Question for the board: How do you guys use languages and linguistics in your games? Any tips for making it more compelling than "I cast tongues and never think about it again?"
What are your design goals for this houserule? What do you want to accomplish that in your view is not present in the game? That will be helpful information for us to come up with suggestions.


having just made a build that learns every language but Druid by level eight, I will be watching this with interest.
While mechanically, there's no way to learn Druidic, if you're actually playing this character, ask your gm if you can go seek out a blighter and do a quest for him, give him some magic moon leaves, pay him some money, etc for him to teach it to you. Teaching someone Druidic breaks the druid code, but blighters are all fallen druids, so they have nothing to lose by passing it on if you make it worth their while.


(great stuff)
Wow, that's all super interesting. How do you think one might represent some of those things mechanically under the d20 system?


One thing I think you should be careful of is that it should not be made impossible for interested players to contribute in social situations. So I personally wouldn't remove common, but I might give bonuses to social skills if someone can converse with his mark in the mark's mother-tongue. That way, the social guy that doesn't speak gnomish can still contribute in the quest that occurs during a gnomish ball, but if he'd known gnomish, he'd have had a bit of an advantage.
This.

This is the actual reason languages don't do anything in 3.5 as is, because saying "sit out for this scene" to your players and not letting them play the game is simply bad design

One strategy I've seen implemented (in a different system) when our pcs encountered alien races, our babelfish were not able to translate perfectly and with full nuance at first contact, so what our gm did was filter their dialogue through this thing (http://splasho.com/upgoer5/) which will only allow you to convey ideas through the 1000 most commonly used words in english (or whatever your party happens to speak) I thought it was a pretty interesting idea and really helped with immersion if that's the goal behind this design change.

[Eldariel]

One thing I think you should be careful of is that it should not be made impossible for interested players to contribute in social situations. So I personally wouldn't remove common, but I might give bonuses to social skills if someone can converse with his mark in the mark's mother-tongue. That way, the social guy that doesn't speak gnomish can still contribute in the quest that occurs during a gnomish ball, but if he'd known gnomish, he'd have had a bit of an advantage.

That's not what would necessarily happen though. If even one character in the party understands the partner's language, the other characters can use her as a translator as well. In addition, there's the more-or-less universalish aspects of body language and onomatopoeia that you can communicate with, as well as genealogically related languages to the target language. I'd say it more adds than removes nuance from social interaction if one player cannot directly converse with most of the NPCs in a given settlement but another can. And if none can, they'll just hire a local interpreter (this is pretty much how people operate in the real world too; tourists travel to places where they can't talk the local language all the time and they still manage to have meaningful conversations in spite of no shared languages - my father once spoke Spanish for 15 minutes at a gas station when the only words he knew were "gasolino", "finito", "total" and "si"), who of course has their own agenda and is a relevant character on their own right.

[Venger]

That's not what would necessarily happen though. If even one character in the party understands the partner's language, the other characters can use her as a translator as well. In addition, there's the more-or-less universalish aspects of body language and onomatopoeia that you can communicate with, as well as genealogically related languages to the target language. I'd say it more adds than removes nuance from social interaction if one player cannot directly converse with most of the NPCs in a given settlement but another can. And if none can, they'll just hire a local interpreter (this is pretty much how people operate in the real world too; tourists travel to places where they can't talk the local language all the time and they still manage to have meaningful conversations in spite of no shared languages - my father once spoke Spanish for 15 minutes at a gas station when the only words he knew were "gasolino", "finito", "total" and "si"), who of course has their own agenda and is a relevant character on their own right.

That's definitely true in real life, but if OP is not satisfied with the system as-is, using a character as a translator (which will let the party all speak any language that any one of them has) then I don't think they're likely to use this in the game.

[Eldariel]

That's definitely true in real life, but if OP is not satisfied with the system as-is, using a character as a translator (which will let the party all speak any language that any one of them has) then I don't think they're likely to use this in the game.

Well, I think having that one player actually translate (or speak to the NPC) while consulting with the other PCs between what is being exchanged enables the dynamic to work and maintains the information lost in translation without shutting the non-linguistically competent players out of the conversation.

I'll get back to your earlier question with better time; but in short, I think it can either be done through bonuses and penalties and just enforcing players discussing within the confines of their ability, or more involved percentile misunderstanding systems and such.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Wrt making it "impossible" for non-fluent characters to contribute in social situations... This is not necessarily true as other posters have pointed out. To the degree that it is true, it is not necessarily a bad thing.

Consider the extreme example: one character is fluent in the relevant language. All others are non-fluent. No NPC present in question has any other language in common with any PC. This is a situation where one player does the talking and everyone else checks their phones and has no fun. Right?

Not quite. First, its important to realize that more often than not, it's one player doing most of the talking anyway. In many games, it's the guy who maxed his social skills and everyone else says, "I aid other" and rolls a d20. The language based exclusion is not really different from that except that it can also serve as a kind of forced spotlight rotation. If the guy with maxed social skills doesn't have the relevant language, someone else has to step up and do the talking. That's potentially a good thing.

Another way that it can promote interaction is for the guy who speaks the language to act as a translator where he translates what the other characters say. If roleplayed out, this has the potential to create some fun moments and will necessarily move the model from "guy with social skills does all the talking" to "we talk about what to say so the guy with the language skills can say it."

Now I'm sure there are ways that it could lead to less than optimal gameplay but it also has the potential to enhance gameplay depending on how the players and DM approach it.

[King of Nowhere]

I dabbled with similar ideas myself, especially inspired by the mistborn era 2 saga, where one of the characters is a master of disguise who put a lot of emphasis on the proper accent to pull off a successful imitation. I never did anything with it, though, because it's hard to incorporate it into a campaign unless the players are also interested.
But here are some ideas for a rework that I expanded right now

Speak language (INT)
This skill allows you to understand and speak a language if you can pass a language check. Unlike with normal skills, you get +2 to your check for every rank you take, and your INT bonus cannot contribute for more than your rank bonus (so if you have 1 rank and +6 INT you still only get +4 to the language). If you have an INT penalty, you can't learn more ranks than (5-INT modifier) in a given language. For the purposes of this skill, dialects are defined as a version of the language that is mutually intelligible.
Advanced language skills however can also be used to blend into an environment or to recognize someone pretending to be something he isn't.
Everyone has a language as his native language. Bonuses of the native language are:
- +10 to all language checks with the language. Can apply INT bonus at will
- can take 5, even under stress
- can recognize dialects
- automatically understand counterintuitive figure of speech or other cultural artifacts
- is automatically recognized as native speaker
- has an additional +10 to all opposed checks made to recognize a linguistic bluff (see below)
One may also be native speaker to a dialect.
One may take a feat to gain additional native languages (Feat "language mastery": choose a number of languages equal to your INT modifier in which you have at least 5 ranks. You are now considered a native speaker of those languages in addition to any other language you are a native speaker of. Add in feat "expert linguist": upon learning a new language for the first time, you immediately gain one free rank in it. This applies once to every new language you learn)

Here are a few examples of DC for communication. Both sides attempting the communication must succeed at the check for a successful communication.
- 5: convey simple messages, like asking for the privy or buying food.
- 10: convey messages that are not particularly complex, like explaining the composition of an army or instructing a worker on where he has to dig a trench. A foreign worker can find a non-specialized job if he can consistently make this check.
- 15: convey complex messages, like the exact distribution on the terrain of an army, or a detailed description.
- 20: convey complex messages about speicalistic topics. Notice that the linguistic skill to convey the message does not guarantee understanding of the message.
- 25: use and understand counterintuitive figure of speech or other cultural artifacts that are not commonly known. For example, the way "a blond" is sometimes used in american english to designate a beautiful but dumb girl, in a pejorative way (except that this is widely known, so it's a lower DC).
- understand and use a dialect: +2 to +5 to the DC depending on how close the dialect is (only native speakers can speak a dialect)
- understand a closely related different language (like spanish and portuguese, or spanish and italian): +10 to DC. The DM decides if two languages are similar enough that it is possible to understand them in this way.
- 25 to 35: correctly use and recognize subtle meanings in poetry, depending on how complex is the poetry.

other non-communicational use: native speakers get a +10 to those
- 20: distinguish a native speaker from someone who is merely fluent
- 25: distinguish the origin of a speaker broadly (he's from somewhere in the east coast). This is the higher a non-native speaker can go.
- 30: from a narrow geographical location (he's from florida)
- 35: from a single city (he's from Orlando)
- 40: from a specific district in the city (He grew up near the docks)
- 40: gleam general personal informations on speaker (his cadence marks him as a factory worker)
- 45: gleam personal informations on the speaker's family (but he got mixed in it some lumberjack lingo from his father)
- 50: gleam detailed personal informations about the speaker and possibly his social circle (that figure of speech is commonly used by college students of a certain university; this guy studied there).

- simulate and recognize an accent
someone may try to pretend an accent in order to change any of the informations detailed above. The DC is the same as the one for distinguishing the accent. to fool a listener, one needs to beat an opposed language check. However, both the speaker and the listener need to at least pass the basic treshold to get the information. A few examples:
Andy is from california, but he wants to pretend he's from florida (DC 30). He rolls a 32. Bob hears him and rolls a 30, he thinks Andy is from florida. Charlie rolls a 28, he doesn't understand where andy is from because he didn't roll high enough to recognize a californian accent in the first place. David rolls a 35, he realizes andy is pretending to be from florida, but can't figure out where he's really from. Eugene rolls 37, he realizes andy is actually from california and trying to pass as someone from florida.

A successful imitation of an accent with a DC of 30 gives a +2 to a disguise, diplomacy or bluff check, even if the target does not realize it (a lot of this is subconscious). A successful imitation with a DC of 40 gives a +4 to the disguise, diplomacy or bluff check, even if the target does not realize it, but only if the target is a native speaker, else the subtlety is missed and only the +2 bonus is applied. A successful imitation with a DC of 50 gives a +6, but only if the target is a native speaker and rolled at least 30 on his opposed check, else the subtlety is missed and only the +4 bonus is applied.

Notice that if someone is trying a bluff or disguise and you want to read their accent, it's an opposed linguistic check. It doesn't matter how good they are at bluffing, if they don't know the language well enough it does them no good (of course they can try a new bluff check to persuade you that they have a perfectly legitimate reason to have the wrong accent, but it carries a significant penalty).

there's plenty of potentially cool stuff here, but it requires a huge investment in skills and feats and it only gives a minor bonus to a few skills unless the other guy also invested a ton into linguistics, and it only works for a single language. Not good in general. Use only if the players want it, or maybe make it a shtick of some npc

[BWR]

Mystara, sensibly, doesn't have Common as such. 'Common' is the most common tongue in the area. In Thyatis, it's Thyatian, though there are probably dozens of lesser languages and dialects. On the Savage Coast it is Slag, with several related languages being regional tongues (along with numerous mostly unrelated languages). Politically and economically powerful languages like Darokinian, Thyatian and Minroth are often used as a common language in neighboring lands as well as their own



How you want to handle learning languages themselves is a different matter though, as languages tend to take a long time to learn, and typically can't be learned very well in a vacuum. I had a DM who wanted us to spend up to 5 skill points per language for a "fluency" gradient, though as you can imagine, 5 skill points for a language is pretty harsh, but at the same time just popping two skill points into speak language (or 1 point into linguistics if it's pathfinder) doesn't really allow for much granularity that you would expect when learning a language. An easy way to handle this is to allow players to spend skill points early, and then instead of learning the languages instantly, the skill points instead open up the character's ability to learn a new language via interaction with speakers of that language and likely some form of education, either from NPCs or fellow party members who speak those languages.

This is basically what Ars Magica does, but has an XP system that works with it. I tried something similar for d20 but it is too cost intensive to be of any real use without giving out free skill points for it.

[Hiro Quester]

My Druid character has limited languages (except for Terran, aquan, etc. for commanding elementals).

But I put a rank or two in perform (pantomime) to be able to communicate to people I don't share a language with (or when I'm in wild shape)

Not having a language in common, but having a rank in perform pantomime, has not been that limiting, and has led to some funny role playing opportunities.

[Venger]

My Druid character has limited languages (except for Terran, aquan, etc. for commanding elementals).

But I put a rank or two in perform (pantomime) to be able to communicate to people I don't share a language with (or when I'm in wild shape)

Not having a language in common, but having a rank in perform pantomime, has not been that limiting, and has led to some funny role playing opportunities.

That's pretty cool. If you want to get more, the pearl of speech can be keyed to any language as well

[ShurikVch]

To the OP: how about the Smatterings feat?
You can learn enough of a language to ask and understand simple questions, explanations, and instructions. This benefit only applies to verbal communication. After 2d6 days of listening to a new language, you know enough to ask simple questions and to follow simple directions. Upon every future encounter with this language, you need only 1d4 days to regain that knowledge.



having just made a build that learns every language but Druid by level eight, I will be watching this with interest.Every language?.!
How?
Are you sure?

There is the list of languages (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Languages).
Are you really learned them all?

And the linked list is even incomplete - it doesn't include such languages as Armandish, Asherati, Avolakia, Beholder, Bhuka, Blink dog, Blood Elemental (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030208a) (can't be understood by any creature except its own kind), Catfolk, Clockwork horror, Darfellan, Dark one, Ethereal marauder, Githzerai, Goatfolk, Grimlock, Illumian, Kenku, Khen-Zai (which cannot be learned by those who lack the Ethergaunt's unique anatomy), Loxo, Lumi, Nerra, Nycter, Odopi, Sahuagin, Slaad, Sporebat (which is unintelligible to all other listeners), Stonesinger, Treant, Tusk terror, Varrangoin, Windsong, and Worg

Oh, and Truespeech is a language too!

Also, I'm pretty sure: you can't have Dark Speech and Words of Creation at the same time

[Gnaeus]

Well, I'm personally very fond of languages (my major is General Linguistics and I got into roleplaying games in the first place thanks to Tolkien's linguistic interests and studying Quenya) so I've spent a good bit thinking about this. One of the big issues though is that the game defaults to most primates (okay, prime dwellers but I prefer the former) knowing Common, there being no regional languages, all languages being standardized, everybody being able to read and write with equal fluency, learning a new language fully taking mere two skill points (or 1 if it's a class skill), there being no dialectal continuum or variants and no intelligibility issues. Curiously, the game goes into detail about the script used to write each language so spelling systems do exist but they all seem to be alphabetical and acquired automatically with the corresponding language unless you don't know how to read or write (which you have to inherently take as a drawback and you only pay 2 skill points to get it back).

- Introduce local languages and their dialectal continuums where mutual intelligibility isn't guaranteed. Most communities in the world are multilingual and most places in the world have cases of language contact that lead to faraway "dialects" (dialect is really a political term, not so much a linguistic one, so I dislike using it but for the lack of better word we'll work with it), so all variants of the same language spoken faraway enough in different kinds of isolation or language contact situations should not be mutually intelligible.

- Introduce different writing and spelling systems that actually matter and take separate effort to learn. I've studied Japanese as a university minor and by far the most bothersome part is learning the Kanji - the logographic signs with some phonetic cues for their Chinese readings but none for the Japanese ones and a great variety of different phonetic realisations and a often a variety of meanings. On the flipside, since they're logographic and thus the meaning is somewhat inherent to the sign rather than the word, you can read some Chinese if you know Japanese kanji even though you don't know how to say the words. Thus, Elvish alphabet and Dwarven runes might be used for the different Elven or Dwarven languages (though it makes no sense for extremely distant communities to use the same system - the writing systems should be local with standard innovation spread patterns much like in the real world) and thus depending on the nature of each spelling system

EDIT: An addendum, vernaculars should be speech community specific. A city or a town houses any number of sociolects, occupational lects and immigrants' dialects, while smaller villages or hamlets will probably have a fairly cohesive vernacular depending on their population. Remember, there's no mass media and most countries, if they even exist, are fairly loose constructs with no such unifying concept as nationalism so there's no power pulling languages towards the standard language and indeed, probably no standardization (even in the 15th century, "doth" was spelt in any number of means like "doeth, "dooth", "dowth", "deuth", "dott", "doot", etc. - there's a corpus about 15th-16th century English).

I’m way behind Eldariel, because I’m a poor language student (and I love buying languages in game because for me the idea of speaking 8 languages is about as fantastic as being a wizard).

My complaint is usually more about deciphering old books and inscriptions. The one language I mastered was Classical Latin, and I’d way rather try to stumble through a conversation in Spanish, Romanian, or Italian than read a Medieval Latin manuscript without a specialized dictionary . You have handwriting differences. Decay in the medium, so missing words or letters. There’s all these awful abbreviations that make as much sense to an outsider as int for intelligence. How do you know it’s not interact or interfere? Shifts in word meaning and grammar over time. Ugh.

But whenever I’m in some ancient tomb I’m reading inscriptions like “thrice pass the golden gate then for moonrise you must wait. The crystal key unlocks the room then guard your soul or face your Doom”. It usually even rhymes after translation. That bs would be like “ok, I got it! This word says 3. So 3 of something. Ok now here’s a movement verb but we lost the ending. So 3 people go? Went? Ok this is definitely the word for moon, I think. I can’t read these letters at all. I see the word cry here. Now I can’t read this scratched off part. Here’s a Gu abbreviation, what words start with gu? Or maybe it’s Go, it’s hard to read. I’m pretty sure this last word means death, or maybe orgasm. Did you say this temple was 12 centuries before the dwarf war or 13? So 3 of us go to the moon crying and then we either die or there’s an orgy. I’m not sure

[lylsyly]

To the OP: how about the Smatterings feat?


Every language?.!
How?
Are you sure?

There is the list of languages (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Languages).
Are you really learned them all?

And the linked list is even incomplete - it doesn't include such languages as Armandish, Asherati, Avolakia, Beholder, Bhuka, Blink dog, Blood Elemental (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030208a) (can't be understood by any creature except its own kind), Catfolk, Clockwork horror, Darfellan, Dark one, Ethereal marauder, Githzerai, Goatfolk, Grimlock, Illumian, Kenku, Khen-Zai (which cannot be learned by those who lack the Ethergaunt's unique anatomy), Loxo, Lumi, Nerra, Nycter, Odopi, Sahuagin, Slaad, Sporebat (which is unintelligible to all other listeners), Stonesinger, Treant, Tusk terror, Varrangoin, Windsong, and Worg

Oh, and Truespeech is a language too!

Also, I'm pretty sure: you can't have Dark Speech and Words of Creation at the same time

Spending SKill points is how, and we don't use setting specific materials so I only add to deal with 19 (Danged druids and there secret language). here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm) Character is elf,so gets common and elven automatically, with an INT of 18 gets 4 more off of Bunus List, spent skill points on the rest, what good is a Bard if it can't talk to people.

[Quarian Rex]

This can be a touchy thing in actual gameplay. If you want languages to be a bigger part of the campaign then you have to make this clear before the game starts. Give the players a chance to decide how integrated into the game world they want to be before they walk to a village half a day's journey from home and find out that they can't understand anyone.

The main thing is to just make sure that it is actually adding to gameplay. Most players show up to be heroes, not to spend half the session playing broken telephone as the gm and the translator pass notes back and forth. And seriously consider the implications of any skill changes you might be considering. A continuum of fluency sounds like a good idea until the players realize that they have to hemorrhage massive skill points and/or feats just to interact with the campaign. Is that more "realistic"? Sure. Is it more fun? Very much no.

Though I really do like the idea of having actual mechanical (if minor) differences between languages as was mentioned by Nifft here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22661947&postcount=8). That sort of thing adds to a fantasy setting and is engaging in ways that, "You can't understand his dialect. You'll need to spend 5 skill points and live in the village for the next six months to become reasonably fluent", just doesn't.

[ShurikVch]

Spending SKill points is how, and we don't use setting specific materials so I only add to deal with 19 (Danged druids and there secret language). here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm) Character is elf,so gets common and elven automatically, with an INT of 18 gets 4 more off of Bunus List, spent skill points on the rest, what good is a Bard if it can't talk to people.Sorry to break it for you, but that table is a stub!
Where is the famous Drow Sign Language?
How about the language of Kobolds?
Do you aware the "Draconic" isn't a single language, but rather the whole language group?
It doesn't even lists all languages in the SRD itself (see there (http://www.d20srd.org/search.htm?q=%22their%20own%20language%22) :smallwink:)
And the lack of mention for languages of Beholders or Slaadi is explicable by the complete absence of such creatures in the SRD
Also, the very name of the table "Common Languages and Their Alphabets" is hinting: there are also must be some "Uncommon Languages and Alphabets"

All "monster languages" mentioned in the reply #19 are, actually, setting-neutral - I found them mostly in the Monster Manual, Fiend Folio, and "environmental books". Besides the aforementioned, there are also: Aboleth, Grell, Hound of the gloom, Maenad, Moilian, Silthilar, Thri-kreen, Tsochar, Xeph, and Yuan-ti.
Words of Creation, Dark Speech, and Truespeech are setting-neutral too

[martixy]

I actually expanded the system a bit, because it seemed very odd to me how it worked now.

So I have 3 levels of language: Rudimentary, Fluency, Mastery.
They handle different aspects like literacy, decipher script, forgery, accents, reading lips, dialects, etc.
Also makes it not seem like you suddenly pop up one day and know a new language right out of the blue.

But take note of what Quarian Rex said. I could afford this change, because a) I use the PF skill system, which is so much more well-behaved than 3.5s and I granted bonus skill points to every character in game.

Nifft's idea though is amazing and I'm stealing that right away.
Though sylvan... eh. I get the angle its coming from, but it's also the language of mythical, mystical magical creatures, closely tied to nature, not just promiscuous fey.

P.S. As far as in game, it's come up a few times, but it isn't something that has played a pivotal role in events so far.

[lylsyly]

So I only speak the "common" languages, works for me. Was mostly just burning skill points anyway, that was what got me started.

[Gnaeus]

This can be a touchy thing in actual gameplay. If you want languages to be a bigger part of the campaign then you have to make this clear before the game starts. Give the players a chance to decide how integrated into the game world they want to be before they walk to a village half a day's journey from home and find out that they can't understand anyone.

The main thing is to just make sure that it is actually adding to gameplay. Most players show up to be heroes, not to spend half the session playing broken telephone as the gm and the translator pass notes back and forth. And seriously consider the implications of any skill changes you might be considering. A continuum of fluency sounds like a good idea until the players realize that they have to hemorrhage massive skill points and/or feats just to interact with the campaign. Is that more "realistic"? Sure. Is it more fun? Very much no.
.

And there are those lucky people who are proficient in a dozen languages and can pick up a new one in a few months. It’s important for certain spy/merchant character concepts, and it would hardly be the least realistic thing in the game if the 300 year old elf could speak 2 dozen languages.

[ExLibrisMortis]

With things like truespeech, dark speech, words of creation, infernal, celestial, abyssal, and possibly primeval around, it stands to reason that the languages that do exist are (a) empowered (socially or inherently) and (b) similar to one of the above. In addition, interaction with powerful immortals likely slows the rate of language change amongst mortals, at least amongst the powerful spellcasting elite.

The secular spellcaster elite is likely to speak a creole of 'disarmed' Languages of Power (i.e. a mix of the list above, plus terran/aquan/ignan/auran, highly simplified) plus any Languages of Power relevant to their studies. The regular (religious) elite will use the Language of Power as appropriate to their deity, as used by the original creator deities, original exemplar races, and so on, plus the elite creole to communicate with other elite.

Meanwhile, regular folks use their racial language (if mandated by the racial pantheon), national language, possibly with the addition of--in mixed-species societies--a creole or pidgin of local languages. All of these common languages are heavily influenced by the elite creole and Languages of Power in many ways, not in the least because schools, and especially grammatical education, are the domain of truenamers, archivists, wizards, and other intelligence-based casters, which are naturally speakers of the elite creole and three or four Languages of Power besides.

Since knowledge of the elite creole gives an appearance of power, every hedge wizard will know a few curses in Aquan and a half-phrase of Auran to throw around (when divining the weather, perhaps). Every well-to-do merchant rubbing shoulders with lower nobility will be looking to show off their Celestial aphorisms.


So, basically, people use different languages according to species, nation, social class, and (magical) power. Intraspecies variation amongst races with a racial pantheon is relatively minor, due to the large stabilizing factor of having a close 'private' pantheon. The main division between languages has the elite creole and the Languages of Power on the one hand, and regular creole and the racial and national languages on the other hand. (Probably ranked Language of Power > elite creole > racial language > national language > regular creole in terms of status, but subject to major variation according to the local/geo-/cosmopolitical climate, naturally)

Only one problem: elite creole is a pretty ****ty name for the ultimate cosmic diplomatic language. Regular creole is Common, so that makes the elite creole... Uncommon? Special? Outré? (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/common?s=t) I like Outré, actually.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I must have missed a step here. Why would the elite speak an elite creole?

It would be one thing if they spoke one of the languages of power--celestial would have the advantage of being impossible to lie in using the above suggestion. However speaking a disarmed language of power is no better than just speaking common. In fact, it's worse because the elite need to learn a new language. (Esperanto didn't go over too well in real life; why would the elite creole be different?)

There is also the challenge of creating the language. Who created it? And when (to use a Greyhawk example) our hypothetical Bigby created Outre, why and how did Mordenkeinen, Melf, or Iggwilve care? It couldn't be because it would be useful in their research. The tomes of Keraptis and the Suel and Baklunish archmagi and the ancient elves were all written in their own languages rather than this new Outre language. If it's just for talking to each other--assuming they do talk--Bigby, Melf and Mordenkeinen are all conversant in common or elvish and Iggwilv isn't particularly interested in talking to them. And none of them are on speaking terms with Rary, so even if they all decided to learn Outre and speak it with each other it wouldn't be any good when they finally decided to see if they could patch things up with the emperor of the bright desert.

A common language is advantageous so it is easy to see how a common trade language could spread. But a separate common language for the elite? That doesn't make sense. The elite might use a one of the languages of the leading countries of their day or night use an ancient language that they all share or might use a language of power if it's powers proved useful but it doesn't make sense for them to invent their own language.

[Jay R]

To make learning the language worth more than tongues, assume that using tongues means you keep your own accent, and cannot pose as somebody from another land. You also can't get away from any prejudices the other person has against your people.

If you learn about languages, you can do what Steve Trevor did.

[ExLibrisMortis]

But a separate common language for the elite? That doesn't make sense.
You're thinking of a created language, but that's not what a creole is (that'd be a conlang). A creole is a natural language, the result of a mixture of languages, and often an 'ascended pidgin', so to speak.

The idea is that no devil will be willing to bargain with a archon in Celestial. Likewise, the reverse. The sorcerer--who wants to Bluff the both of them--doesn't want to learn two languages. Wizards and truenamers may have the intelligence to spare for that, but not them!

What does the devil do? Well, it takes a little Celestial, a little Infernal, a little Ignan, mix loosely, serve over Terran. It creates an acceptable mixture of comprehension and neutrality, just enough to communicate with the archon. This mixture is still pretty rough and situational, but as time goes on, they settle into a comfortable routine. When other people come into the picture--such as our diplomatic sorcerer--they learn the language as it has developed, with all the quirks inherent to an ideosyncratic pidgin between a devil and an archon. Seventeen generations of sorcerer down, anyone who does not specifically need a Language of Power is learning Outré, because it's the safe bet, the one language allows communication with everyone--or at least anyone of relevant power.

A common language for the elite is quite common, even standard. Over here in the Netherlands, we have had, in succession, Latin, French, and now English as common language of the elite. It's these languages that officials, diplomats, scholars, and businessmen use when communicating across the border.

[Elder_Basilisk]

A common language for elites is indeed common in real life, but as far as I know, it has always been a real, living (at least sort of--medieval Latin was living enough to diverge from classical Latin) language rather than a creole, pidgin, or purpose created language. There are good reasons for that.

First, elite languages are usually the language of an internationally influential people. Greek became the educated language of the ancient world due to their intellectual influence and later Latin became a common elite language due to the influence of the church and Roman law. Later French and now English became elite languages due to the commanding position of those nations in culture, politics, and commerce. In all cases, the language was useful for speaking to a group of people and reading things that were already written in it prior to it becoming influential.

It is the usefulness of the language for the purposes of the elites--other than communication with each other--that leads to them becoming elite languages. And it is the fact that it is a fully developed language from the start that makes it suitable for the elite second language purposes.

The proposed Outre language reverses that process. In so doing, it creates unsolvable problems for how it could be adopted. Consider the hypothetical celestial and devil wanting to negotiate. Depending on the setting's timeline, it might well make sense for them to use a mortal language (or just use the tongues spell). Or converse in a common language of power--celestial elemental tongue or whatever the inevitables speak. But even if those things weren't possible and they decided to converse in a pidgin they cobble together from common words in other languages of power (in which case they obviously speak common languages of power and could use those instead--which is normal; if I run into a Russian who doesn't want to speak English but speaks German, we wouldn't come up with an English/Russian/German creole, we would just speak German--that is how English, French, etc became languages of the elite), there is no reason to believe that the next time a celestial had reason to negotiate with a devil, they would come up with the same combination of pidgin and pantomime. Nor is there any reason to suspect that the devil would be able to adopt that same pidgin when negotiating with efreeti. Even if they needed to negotiate in pidgin, it would be a different pidgin just like my communication with a Frenchman who doesn't speak English is different than when I need to talk to a Mexican who doesn't speak English. And then the story of outre's development falls apart. Without the ad hoc pantomime plus pidgin being similar, it won't congeal into a language of it's own through regular use.

[ExLibrisMortis]

it has always been a real, living [...] language rather than a creole, pidgin, or purpose created language.
Creoles are real living languages. That's literally in the definition. Also, a lot of "high speech" is purpose-created. Not typically as a conlang, but as nostalgic reconstruction.

Also, try throwing this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diglossia) and this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis) together (in a purely hypothetical manner, mind--I'm not claiming the latter hypothesis is correct). Bam, creole acrolect.


The proposed Outre language reverses that process. In so doing, it creates unsolvable problems for how it could be adopted.
Eh, no. You're getting way too hung up on this. The point is that it's different, because the Great Wheel cosmology is different. Powerful ancients exist by cosmological fiat, and so do their languages.

It's really simple:
1) There are these powerful languages used by these exemplars that these planes just produce. Nothing we can do about that.
2) No trader, diplomat, tourist, or adventurer, exemplar or mortal, can learn them all, but they might want to communicate with all sorts of folks anyway, ergo: we need a lingua franca of some sort.
3) This lingua franca is not going to be any of the powerful languages that exist, because (for one) demons literally cannot speak Celestial, because it hurts them to say nice things, and Celestial doesn't have words for the kinds of things demons like to get up to anyway. Idem for any other language of power (except possibly the N Language of Power, which I've previously suggested might be Common, or could be Outré on this thread, but that aside).
4) This lingua franca is, however, going to be based on/a product of the Languages of Power that already exist, because starting from zero is impractical. And this lingua franca can't carry the full power of any of these Languages, because it would make the lingua franca hostile to some of its users. And because of that, this lingua franca can't use the grammatical structures of any language of power. Hence this lingua franca incorporates large parts of the vocabularies of various LoPs, using a simplified "disarmed" grammar; ergo: it is a creole.
5) Because of its close association with powerful exemplars and ancient magic, this creole lingua franca, which for now has the name Outré, is primarily spoken by the elite, at least amongst mortals. Amongst immortals, it will not have this higher status, although it'll still be more prestigious than any mortal language. As I believe was in my original post.


Consider the hypothetical celestial and devil wanting to negotiate. Depending on the setting's timeline, it might well make sense for them to use a mortal language (or just use the tongues spell). Or converse in a common language of power--celestial elemental tongue or whatever the inevitables speak.
Tongues is cheating on this thread, and should not be considered.
What are the odds two different exemplars would share a mortal language? There are thousands!
Using a common language of power is an option, but you have to have one that's sufficiently neutral. What if you don't?


[...] there is no reason to believe that the next time a celestial had reason to negotiate with a devil, they would come up with the same combination of pidgin and pantomime. Nor is there any reason to suspect that the devil would be able to adopt that same pidgin when negotiating with efreeti.
Would you come up with a different phrase for "get off my worshiper" every time you meet someone new? Of course not. The person you're talking to might not know that you've already come up with that phrase, but you will. Again: no need to start from zero. Use what worked last time.

[Nifft]

Also, a lot of "high speech" is purpose-created. Not typically as a conlang, but as nostalgic reconstruction.

Low Dude: "Dude..."

High Dude: "Duuuuuuuuuuude."

[Elder_Basilisk]

Creoles are real living languages. That's literally in the definition. Also, a lot of "high speech" is purpose-created. Not typically as a conlang, but as nostalgic reconstruction.

Except that for all you are calling it a creole, your hypothetical planar lingua Franca is not a living language when it starts out. It is a kind of personal pidgin pantomime which you think would become a proper language through repeated use and would develop to be the elite language of planar diplomacy.



Eh, no. You're getting way too hung up on this. The point is that it's different, because the Great Wheel cosmology is different. Powerful ancients exist by cosmological fiat, and so do their languages.

Sure, powerful ancients exist and have languages. But you are positing an additional ancient language not mentioned in the cosmology on the basis that it makes sense and should be there. I don't think it does make sense.

As far as the tongues spell goes I don't think it's out of bounds on this thread which is largely working within RAW. After all, a lot of the outsiders you are discussing have tongues available to them. If archons can communicate with any creature as though through Tongues by virtue of their subtype, they wouldn't need such a creole. That's one important way in which development for languages of power would be different than development of mortal languages. The native speakers of languages of power have abilities that might eliminate some pressures that cause mortal languages to develop.


Would you come up with a different phrase for "get off my worshiper" every time you meet someone new? Of course not. The person you're talking to might not know that you've already come up with that phrase, but you will. Again: no need to start from zero. Use what worked last time.

That rather depends. If I needed to tell you to do so, a mix of English, German, and what little Dutch I know might work. But if I needed to say the same thing to a Vietnamese guy who isn't willing to speak English with me and doesn't speak German, I'd have to come up with something else.

And if you needed to tell the Vietnamese guy to get off your worshipper, what are the odds you would come up with the same phrase or even something similar? So, why do we think the archon sent to talk to Asmodeus' ambassador will use the same phrases if he has to talk pidgin to Orcus or Yeenoghu? The languages they share will most likely be different.

The bottom line for me is that I don't see any way to get from an impromptu makeshift half language of convenience to the lingua Franca of the planes without an extant community that uses it. All the real life elite languages got to be that way because they were useful to the elite for research, commerce, law, or worship and, because international elites knew them, became the shared language of the elite. But they existed as a national language before they became an elite language and gained their elite status at least in part due to the prominence of their nation.

I could see a setting specific area where a group of planar beings got together and eventually mingled their languages to create a creole and [I]then[/] due to strategic position, planar politics, whatever, their language became the planar lingua Franca but I don't see that the great wheel cosmology makes that a necessary or even likely to occur. That's an interesting piece of setting lore but inventing planar common is rather the opposite of the point of this thread which was premised on getting away from a prime material "common" tongue.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Except that for all you are calling it a creole, your hypothetical planar lingua Franca is not a living language when it starts out. It is a kind of personal pidgin pantomime which you think would become a proper language through repeated use and would develop to be the elite language of planar diplomacy.
Yeah, that's like, standard. Seriously, did you read the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language)? First sentence, dude.

I mean, your entire objection basically boils down to "how'd you get a common language from no common language?". Which is a fine question and all, but it's kind of a given that it happens, because language is a thing, creoles are a thing, and new ones develop all the time. Yes, living language can even spring up from little or no (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaraguan_Sign_Language) language whatsoever (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poto_and_Cabengo) (although social contact is required).

I'm not saying that the setting must have given rise to Outré. No setting must do anything of the sort. I'm saying that the setting can support Outré, and I illustrate that with the anecdote of the poor skill point-impoverished sorcerer.

(Oh, and Outré is not H language amongst outsiders, but amongst mortals, specifically spellcasters. The lingua franca of the exemplar races is also the acrolect of the mortal races, if you will. It then has a profound effect on the L mortal languages, of course, and some might approach Outré quite closely over time.)


After all, a lot of the outsiders you are discussing have tongues available to them. If archons can communicate with any creature as though through Tongues by virtue of their subtype, they wouldn't need such a creole. That's one important way in which development for languages of power would be different than development of mortal languages. The native speakers of languages of power have abilities that might eliminate some pressures that cause mortal languages to develop.
If you want to take tongues as common, then sure, yes, only people without tongues would develop a lingua franca (which might still be Outré). However, I feel that it is contrary to the purpose of the thread to relegate inter-exemplar communication to tongues.

[Jay R]

If you want to take tongues as common, then sure, yes, only people without tongues would develop a lingua franca (which might still be Outré). However, I feel that it is contrary to the purpose of the thread to relegate inter-exemplar communication to tongues.

Ooooh -- new plot idea. For the last 200 years, all serious diplomacy has been carried on with wizards using tongues, and now wizards are abusing their monopoly. No highly ranked person has communicated with another kingdom without a wizard for generations, and so all negotiations turn out to be great for the wizards.

A new noble is trying to break their stranglehold on diplomacy, using the only other available tool - the pirates and smugglers, who have their own patois.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ooooh -- new plot idea. For the last 200 years, all serious diplomacy has been carried on with wizards using tongues, and now wizards are abusing their monopoly. No highly ranked person has communicated with another kingdom without a wizard for generations, and so all negotiations turn out to be great for the wizards.

A new noble is trying to break their stranglehold on diplomacy, using the only other available tool - the pirates and smugglers, who have their own patois.
I like that :smallbiggrin:. Couple of wizards lounging by the fire, sipping Terran brandy, one goes "Etudepius, dear fellow, when you see king Rupert next, tell him... hmmm [eats a chocolate] ...that chocolate is what the Altipodeans really want. Why, my store-rooms are barely half-full!".

[King of Nowhere]

A common language for elites is indeed common in real life, but as far as I know, it has always been a real, living (at least sort of--medieval Latin was living enough to diverge from classical Latin) language rather than a creole, pidgin, or purpose created language.
Well, it's more accurate to state that it started as a real, living language. After it became widely used, it may have died in common use, but still being maintained. Latin is the example. During the roman empire everyone who mattered spoke latin, so it became the main language. Then the empire fragmented and languages staarted to diverge - but important people who now spoke different dialects of latin still needed a common language, and it naturally was latin because it was the language that was taught and the one all the books were written in. One thousand years later, latin is a dead language, but everyone in the cosmopolitan community is still speaking latin, and everyone who wants to join the comsopolitan community has to learn latin, and everyone who caters to the wider market has to write books in latin so people have to learn latin anyway. That's how latin was still used by the elite for so long.

So, the common language may well be a dead language that was once spoken, for example, by a large empire, which has long since fallen, but whose language has remained behind because it was easier to have new students learn it than it would have been to teach a new language to all professors/diplomatis/merchants and translate all books.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Yeah, that's like, standard. Seriously, did you read the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language)? First sentence, dude.

I mean, your entire objection basically boils down to "how'd you get a common language from no common language?". Which is a fine question and all, but it's kind of a given that it happens, because language is a thing, creoles are a thing, and new ones develop all the time. Yes, living language can even spring up from little or no (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaraguan_Sign_Language) language whatsoever (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poto_and_Cabengo) (although social contact is required).

I'm not saying that the setting must have given rise to Outré. No setting must do anything of the sort. I'm saying that the setting can support Outré, and I illustrate that with the anecdote of the poor skill point-impoverished sorcerer.

(Oh, and Outré is not H language amongst outsiders, but amongst mortals, specifically spellcasters. The lingua franca of the exemplar races is also the acrolect of the mortal races, if you will. It then has a profound effect on the L mortal languages, of course, and some might approach Outré quite closely over time.)

As the article points out, all of the creoles in real life came into existence as a part of a particular community that came to speak it as a native language. You are proposing the creation of a creole where there is no continual community and it is no-one's native language, and there is no particular defined group of languages that go into it. (A little celestial here, a little ignan there--all the languages of power more or less represented).

I'll grant that, if there were what is effectively a planar version common, it would make sense that it might be adopted as a common language for the mortal elite. I just don't think a planar common language that has no connection to any particular community makes any more sense than Planar Esperanto.


If you want to take tongues as common, then sure, yes, only people without tongues would develop a lingua franca (which might still be Outré). However, I feel that it is contrary to the purpose of the thread to relegate inter-exemplar communication to tongues.

Well, for the example you picked, literally every Archon effectively has a permanent Tongues spell going as a part of their type. In pathfinder, Angels, Azatas, Agathions, and Inevitables all have Truespeech too. Now devils don't have truespeech and neither do Efreeti so there's clearly room for language issues among exemplars (though not Archons). But then again, any outsider who is likely to be regularly negotiating with others has enough skills and Int bonus to know more than a few languages and there's no reason that Efreeti would not be willing to use Ignan to speak to Salamanders and Infernal to speak with devils, or something like Terran or Draconic if they want to insist on negotiating in a non-native language. I would expect that the language of planar diplomacy would be determined by relative power and politics.

[Fizban]

I like the idea of making languages more important, but I know I don't really have the background to do it justice in roleplay even if I tried to work something out on paper. Forgotten Realms has a bunch of regional language lists so characters from certain regions can only learn languages from that region, more than any other setting I've seen has bothered, but you still just speak common all the time unless the DM makes a fuss, in which case you probably switch to elven or draconic or some other popular language.

If anything, I think you'd need to actually reduce the number of languages to make them important. I know full well that in real-life being multilingual is way more common (and there's a ton of languages), and DnD has this built in just fine with common+racial+int bonus languages. But you still need regional restrictions and a small enough number that an average zero int bonus PC can bet on their non-common language being useful, and most DnD settings aren't the size of the whole globe, more like a continent at most (usually Europe sized or so, I think?). New languages need to cost more without having starting languages overshadow them, or the stat generation and int-superiority gaps just get wider.

In particular, I think the "racial" language paradigm should be dropped: without some serious xenophobia, a racial language is just a regional language where a lot of people of that race live. The "oh you aren't an elf so your elvish sounds like an animal" thing disgusts me, there is no physiological excuse given why a human raised speaking elvish would sound less "musical" than an elf. So you have a "human" "racial" language (not Common), of which there is one the same way there's only "one" dwarvish or elvish, and then all the racial languages are actually region based, and most people know theirs and one other from nearby. Designate at most 3-4 of these as the "elite" languages, preferably no more than 1/3 of them: the PHB has 5 total (dwarf, elf, gnome, orc, halfling), up to 6 when you add humish, so you'd only want two elite languages, and you can make those non-humish since humans are always supposed to be new and moving around: elvish and dwarvish then because they're the longest lived with the biggest empires.

Most PCs will take humish, because the game tends to assume humans as the default, and either elvish or dwarvish. Then, example: A non-dwarf dealing with an elf via dwarvish or humish because they don't know elvish is likely at a disadvantage, which may just be roleplaying or may be a mechanical penalty, while a non-gnome dealing with a gnome in gnomish likely earns some extra respect for not seeming like a snobby outlander. With a small number of languages you can crank up the skill cost to 4 or 6 with varying grades, while still keeping knowledge of a single language useful (though I was thinking more like 8 total rather than 6). If there's a mechanical penalty assigned to using the wrong language with the wrong person, you're basically buying off that penalty- or rather, buying a situational bonus, and hey synergy bonuses are a thing that already exists. Using magic gives you time restrictions and the person you're talking to generally knows you're using magic, so they're not impressed and probably give you the full penalty for not speaking their language. (Of course, you also need to fix the diplomacy/attitude system so that a penalty actually matters, or else make it so huge that normal people are screwed). You can have people who start with nothing but the elite languages and also people who start with none of them, for the full range of compatibility.

What about all the other monster and planar languages? Dump 'em, at least for player use. Too much to keep track of and I find it ridiculous how "oh wizards like to learn draconic because lots of magic stuff is in draconic," even though dragons aren't wizards and think mortals are worthless. And how all optimized characters know drow sign language. No, if draconic is a standard language then its a standard language used by whole populations in a region. Once again the default assumption is that the game revolves around the material plane, so outsiders that deal with the material (who don't already have Tongues) will know mortal languages, and there's no need to learn specific outsider languages when you can just summon a different individual that speaks your language. This is where the languages of power idea can come in, since I've always wanted a simple way for people to ensure trust in a world full of magic. A language where you can't lie, one that you cannot be compelled to speak, binding agreements sure, all sorts of things you could make up. None of these are allowed as starting languages or duplicable through magic (maybe you can understand them with magic so they're more useful, but you can't speak them- except for the one with the purpose of "not understood by magic" of course), so you have to learn them properly with skill points and for which you gain a more useful mechanical+roleplaying ability that is not available from starting languages. These could of course be given out as class features, but if your magical classes include the class feature of "even more magic language that non-magical don't get just because," that's pretty bogus- if anything the non-magicals should make a bigger point of learning the mystical languages to even the field.

Then you can get to the idea of an outre (or underdark) "common" language. One for outsiders, one for underdark. It's enough to make you considered savvy to remove the skill penalty, and communicate with members of that region that don't happen to share any of your mortal languages. This is useful because as above there's still like 6-8 mortal languages and if you travel there instead of summoning things then you need to communicate. Basically these arbitrarily or infinitely vast areas are actually just a single region each, with their languages restricted to non-starting, because the game focuses on the surface material.


So in sum: there are 8 regional languages, 2-3 of which will make sure you can always talk to the people in power, and each character starts with their home and one nearby language. There's also one language each for "outsiders" and "underdark," which you can't start with (unless they're a viable starting region), and possibly any number of magical languages that have real effects but which also must be learned with skill points. Learning a new language comes in stages and isn't complete until you've spent 5 skill points on it. NPC attitudes are based on a flat charisma check (no magic bonuses either), and you usually take a -2 or greater penalty if you don't speak their favored language. Diplomacy is changed into Negotiation, you take the same penalties on Negotiation, Bluff, Sense Motive, or any other social interaction check as you would for attitudes, and using magic to communicate does not remove these penalties. Some xeno or magiphiles don't care and have no penalty, some xenophobes will impose even worse penalties that might not be completely removed by knowing their language, though the increased penalty doesn't apply to your Sense Motive checks as they're also not using their favored language. The average person will waive the penalty if they speak your native/favored language as well (the elf who learned dwarvish to deal with dwarves for example), but not if you're both speaking your non-favored languages.



Back to archons and their constant Tongues: if it wasn't easier to cast the spells yourself, I'd say summoning/calling an archon as a translator would be an awesome standard practice. And don't forget that it's not even Tongues that is the problem- casting the 1st level Comprehend on both parties is enough, or having a pair of Helms for only 10,400gp.

[DRD1812]

I like that :smallbiggrin:. Couple of wizards lounging by the fire, sipping Terran brandy, one goes "Etudepius, dear fellow, when you see king Rupert next, tell him... hmmm [eats a chocolate] ...that chocolate is what the Altipodeans really want. Why, my store-rooms are barely half-full!".

It occurs to me that this might be an adventure design problem rather than a systems problem. No one wants to improvise Dwarven riddles on the fly, but an adventure built around language problems could be interesting. The only problem with this example is that it's a one-shot in its own setting. You couldn't really slot it into a standard campaign setting.

[SaintRidley]

So, one thing I'm really digging are primitivist generational campaigns - set early in a world's history and really building the world of the future through the gameplay. I played one that got abandoned in the first generation, but it was really fun, and one of the major hooks with the setting was having to abandon our homeland and sail to uncharted lands in order to find and establish a new home.

Isolation, a relatively primitive setting with no magic, and only one language (other peoples have other languages, but we can't understand them). Perfect.

I'd love to do a new game with that setup and run in parallel a slightly adapted game of Dialect (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thornygames/dialect-a-game-about-language-and-how-it-dies) (digital edition hit my email earlier today) to help further develop the language of our culture. I think it'd be a really cool way to flesh out the game world.

Also, I always ditch Common. Terrible concept, that is.