True Polymorph and Spell Slots

[the_brazenburn]

So, there's this bard...

I know, lousy way to start a story.

But the bard cast True Polymorph to turn himself into a Deva Angel. This should technically give him more spell slot and spells, which raises a question in my mind.

Do you keep your own spellcasting when Polymorphed into something with spellcasting of its own, or do you take on the new form's spellcasting?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Do you keep your own spellcasting when Polymorphed

No. You have the stats of whatever you're polymorphed into. To quote from true polymorph:


The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form.

The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form
Your stats are replaced wholesale by the stat block, including mental ability scores and available actions, except for alignment and personality.

[the_brazenburn]

No. You have the stats of whatever you're polymorphed into.

So can a 20th level wizard True Polymorph his Simulacrum into an Archmage after its wasted all its slots and give it another full set?

[Lord8Ball]

I think that rule applies if you polymorph into a non humanoid race or extra planer entities, but choosing a PC race like an elf or human it should be fine.

[Ninja_Prawn]

So can a 20th level wizard True Polymorph his Simulacrum into an Archmage after its wasted all its slots and give it another full set?

By the RAW, I guess it can. That's the power of being an epic-level wizard. Personally I'd be inclined to just ban simulacrum though. It's a dumb spell.


I think that rule applies if you polymorph into a creature, but choosing a PC race like an elf or human it should be fine as long as it has the humanoid type.

That's what alter self is for. :smalltongue:

[Lord8Ball]

@Ninja_Prawn Unlike alter self it would/could be permanent and you'd have the abilities and modifiers of the race which is pretty strong when I think about it. Instantaneous free temporary racial spells. Wonder how that works with shapechange lol, but the only thing alter self has over EDIT(true polymorph) is that you can turn your arm into a sword or flavor into stuff like your arms transmute to steel. Also the I can become a changling for an hour which is pretty neat.

[SharkForce]

RAW, you gain the spells (and indeed any "class ability" type stuff) that your new form has with true polymorph (note that this is not the case with shapechange, which has its own rules).

this has been an incredibly unpopular fact, from what i can tell, and there are multiple threads discussing this exact question, most of them over 10 pages long. from what i can tell, most of the arguments as for why it doesn't say what it says essentially boil down to some combination of "it really shouldn't say that" and/or "i really don't want it to say that", but nevertheless that is in fact what it says.

having said all that... RAW is a poor reason to leave a bad rule in the game, and while i cannot argue that the RAW does not indicate that you can get an entirely new set of spell slots by true polymorphing into an archmage (or an arcanoloth, or whatever other spellcasting creature), i can certainly agree that i don't think it should say that, and i really don't want it to say that, and i highly recommend changing it in your own games so that it doesn't say that.... i'm just not prepared to insist that my personal opinions on the matter somehow miraculously change the words that are in the book to be different words.

so, yeah... it says that. in this case, i recommend ignoring what the book says, and figuring out something that works for you (though i suppose it is possible that "what works for you" turns out to be "what the book says").

[Asmotherion]

By the RAW, I guess it can. That's the power of being an epic-level wizard. Personally I'd be inclined to just ban simulacrum though. It's a dumb spell.



That's what alter self is for. :smalltongue:

It's not a dumb spell. It just needs some limitations. I personally enjoy the seemingly endless posibilities it provides, and it's synergy with 9th level Spells, as this is exactly what a LV 17+ Arcane Caster with time and preparation should feel like.

On the other hand, a DM has ultimate authority, and can make limitations as he sees fit. An easy limitation would be that "True Polymorphed" Simulacrums won't have to answear to their creator anymore, as they are real creatures now. That can be played in a lot of ways, depending on the A) Original Creature's that baseded the Simulacrum's Alignment B) Simulacrum's Alignment C) Real Creature's Alignment

For example, if the original creature was the Caster, the simulacrum could be his "Shadow", his alter ego from the Shadowfell, bound to serve him by the spell. If true polymorpher permanently into the caster, free from the spell, the shadow would retain it's inherently evil alignment, and try to kill the original, to take it's place. On the other hand, if polymorphed into an inherently good creature such as a Deva, the good and evil might balance out, and it may end up a neutral creature that would go away, and try to find it's place in the world.

[SharkForce]

It's not a dumb spell. It just needs some limitations. I personally enjoy the seemingly endless posibilities it provides, and it's synergy with 9th level Spells, as this is exactly what a LV 17+ Arcane Caster with time and preparation should feel like.

On the other hand, a DM has ultimate authority, and can make limitations as he sees fit. An easy limitation would be that "True Polymorphed" Simulacrums won't have to answear to their creator anymore, as they are real creatures now. That can be played in a lot of ways, depending on the A) Original Creature's that baseded the Simulacrum's Alignment B) Simulacrum's Alignment C) Real Creature's Alignment

For example, if the original creature was the Caster, the simulacrum could be his "Shadow", his alter ego from the Shadowfell, bound to serve him by the spell. If true polymorpher permanently into the caster, free from the spell, the shadow would retain it's inherently evil alignment, and try to kill the original, to take it's place. On the other hand, if polymorphed into an inherently good creature such as a Deva, the good and evil might balance out, and it may end up a neutral creature that would go away, and try to find it's place in the world.

turning an object (which seems to be more or less what you're arguing the simulacrum is by designating it as "not a real creature") into a creature via true polymorph makes it friendly to you and obey your actions for the first hour regardless.

furthermore, it keeps the same goals and whatnot, and the simulacrum's goal was to obey you.

personally, i prefer to fix simulacrum. it causes far too many problems. my personal house rule? no abilities beyond what a level 7 character could have. increasing the spell level by 1 allows access to 1 additional level of simulacrum abilities. for convenience, ASIs are the exception.

so for example, a regular simulacrum of a level 20 wizard would only be able to cast spells as a level 7 wizard (including spell slots), would have the proficiency bonus of a level 7 wizard, would be capped at 7 hit dice, and would not have access to high level wizard abilities (like a third portent if a diviner, or spell mastery/signature spell). if you instead cast it on a level 20 wizard 18/cleric 2, it would still have 7 hit dice (2 of which could be cleric d8s) and the spell slots of a level 7 full caster, the spells known/prepared of a level 7 wizard and a level 2 cleric, etc.

a level 11 fighter/level 9 wizard would have the hit dice of a level 7 fighter (it's creator's choice of which available hit dice to use, but i would presume the higher are usually chosen), only 2 attacks per round, no fighter abilities from above level 7, etc. it would still have the same proficiency bonus as a level 7 character, wouldn't get additional spell slots even if the fighter was an eldritch knight, would not have any higher superiority die than a level 7 fighter (can't remember where the upgrades happen, but if there's one between 7 and 11 the simulacrum wouldn't have it), etc.

now, you may argue that this changes the ideal target for simulacrum in some weird ways (a heavily multiclassed simulacrum will have most of the abilities of the original level 20 character while a single-classed simulacrum will have far fewer in comparison), but simply put i am totally ok with that because an extra level 20 fighter/mage/rogue with low proficiency bonus and hit dice is unlikely to cause as many problems as an extra level 20 wizard (or druid or whatever) with half hit points. also, i would remove the restriction on regaining spell slots. now that it isn't giving double the number of 6-9 spell slots per day, it's much less of a problem, and it should allow leaving a fake of an important spellcasting official somewhere for an extended period, a use which was blocked by the existing version that i would like to have back.

of course, the problem with my version is that it does require more decision-making on what exactly counts as a character ability should you use it on an NPC :P

[Lord8Ball]

I am curious as to what happens when you true polymorph your clone who is in stasis from the spell. Let's say for instance you true polymorph your clone into an archmage. When reviving the mage would probably get spell slot back from the new body. If this strategy works it could be abused so hard either in pvp or losing your enemies when you look like another person. There is always a chance that someone could sabotage your clone and turn it into a mouse so when you die. Yeah, it won't be pretty.

[Asmotherion]

turning an object (which seems to be more or less what you're arguing the simulacrum is by designating it as "not a real creature") into a creature via true polymorph makes it friendly to you and obey your actions for the first hour regardless.

furthermore, it keeps the same goals and whatnot, and the simulacrum's goal was to obey you.

personally, i prefer to fix simulacrum. it causes far too many problems. my personal house rule? no abilities beyond what a level 7 character could have. increasing the spell level by 1 allows access to 1 additional level of simulacrum abilities. for convenience, ASIs are the exception.

so for example, a regular simulacrum of a level 20 wizard would only be able to cast spells as a level 7 wizard (including spell slots), would have the proficiency bonus of a level 7 wizard, would be capped at 7 hit dice, and would not have access to high level wizard abilities (like a third portent if a diviner, or spell mastery/signature spell). if you instead cast it on a level 20 wizard 18/cleric 2, it would still have 7 hit dice (2 of which could be cleric d8s) and the spell slots of a level 7 full caster, the spells known/prepared of a level 7 wizard and a level 2 cleric, etc.

a level 11 fighter/level 9 wizard would have the hit dice of a level 7 fighter (it's creator's choice of which available hit dice to use, but i would presume the higher are usually chosen), only 2 attacks per round, no fighter abilities from above level 7, etc. it would still have the same proficiency bonus as a level 7 character, wouldn't get additional spell slots even if the fighter was an eldritch knight, would not have any higher superiority die than a level 7 fighter (can't remember where the upgrades happen, but if there's one between 7 and 11 the simulacrum wouldn't have it), etc.

now, you may argue that this changes the ideal target for simulacrum in some weird ways (a heavily multiclassed simulacrum will have most of the abilities of the original level 20 character while a single-classed simulacrum will have far fewer in comparison), but simply put i am totally ok with that because an extra level 20 fighter/mage/rogue with low proficiency bonus and hit dice is unlikely to cause as many problems as an extra level 20 wizard (or druid or whatever) with half hit points. also, i would remove the restriction on regaining spell slots. now that it isn't giving double the number of 6-9 spell slots per day, it's much less of a problem, and it should allow leaving a fake of an important spellcasting official somewhere for an extended period, a use which was blocked by the existing version that i would like to have back.

of course, the problem with my version is that it does require more decision-making on what exactly counts as a character ability should you use it on an NPC :P

As a DM I see it as a great opportunity for RP. Wile it was not a real creature, all functioned according to the caster's will. Then, I either roll on a table, or take the approach that seems to make the story more interesting. From that point on, it is Effectivelly an NPC.

Example:
When one of my players tryed to make a simulacrum (of himself) a Permanent Dragon, during concentration, all went according to plan. Then, at the moment the spell was about to become permanent, the guy disintegrated entirelly! In the ashes, they found the egg of a Dragon, and from it hatched a Wyrmling version of the Dragon, that retained the memories and personality it had in it's time as a Similacrum. I figured it would make more sence for a Real creature to be Born into the world. It did age at an enhanced rate, but it still happened through Role Play and a lot of Sessions.