Book of Nine Swords in 5e [PEACH]

[Ixidor92]

Me and my brother both loved the Book of Nine swords from 3.5, so I have been working on bringing the three classes from that book into 5e. For those not familiar, the book of nine swords detailed three classes that studied various mystical sword disciplines.
For anyone that loves mystic swordsmen style characters, it was an absolute dream. Below are links to both the main class (with three subclasses for each of the classes available in 3.5) followed by a link detailing the nine disciplines and the maneuvers each one provides.

Class: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qK6_puoF_FV2DYvagwuK__Ikr6Ih3JjW
Nine discipline maneuvers: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HjXu8pxEVo1DnvBQzpQXW6f2HWINeGme

I'm still somewhat new to posting my own homebrew, so any critique would be appreciated. Whether it is on the class itself, or how to showcase information like this. Thanks to any who spend the time to look

[cesius]

Maneuvers, Stamina, Stamina Limit - the core rules remind of the psychic stuff for 5th which is not a bad thing. It could use a line allowing swapping one for another when gaining a level; like many casters have for spells. The school ability modifier part is odd, but I'll talk more about that in School of Blade, as well as a more general critique.

School of the Blade - I think this is an artifact of bringing three 3.x classes into one. If you're aiming for a single "orthodox" 5th edition style class, this sort of split should occur at 2nd level or 3rd level (2nd seems like a good place, like Druid Circle and Wizard Tradition). It seems like there is too much going on with the class at the moment. Martial Stance alone is 3 abilities in one from 2nd level (I think that many stances in 3.5 would be around 7th level?). More streamlined to just make it Strength to start.

Martial Stance - I like the ideas, but some are just flat better than others. As I said in School of the Blade, I'm not a fan of them being given out in packs of three. I think gaining them at a similar rate to Warlock invocations would work better. If there were two upgrades for each stance that counted as learning a new stance (maybe with level-gates if needed), then a 3 school subclass could master two of their disciplines's stances and almost master the third. This would help avoid frontloading the class.

Desert Wind *
Devoted Spirit *
Diamond Mind - reduce to 10 ft
Iron Heart * maybe just add proficiency bonus
Setting Sun + any attack not made on your turn
Stone Dragon *
Tiger Claw - you can add ability modifier damage to the bonus attack from two-weapon fighting
White Raven *

Stance Adept: I'd take this out (see above) and replace it with appropriate subclass features to differentiate their ability components. Crusaders add Cha, Swordsages add Wis, and Warblades add Int to martial maneuver difficulties. It's a nice power up heading into higher levels. but builds on their existing strengths.

Extra Attack: I think it'd be simpler to change the how maneuvers are applied to attacks rather than put the extra wording here, but I may have spent too much time using Booming Blade and battlenaster maneuvers recently.

Blade Meditation: Meh. It's okay, but kind of boring. Maybe something along the lines of gaining a bit of stamina at the start of a fight?

Martial Master: I'm just not sure why these are here rather than with the rest of the maneuvers. Give them a level-gate of 20 and a character could only have one anyway.

Crusader
Bonus skill, nice.
Battle Resilience - Could use a streamlining to fit the 5th edition aesthetic. "As a reaction you can expend one hit die to the damage by the number your roll on your hit die. The number of hit die you can expend increases by one when you reach 5th level, 11th level, and 17th level." Now the usage scales with levels in the class and the utility increases at certain benchmarks (I chose the ones for cantrips as a base point).

Furious Counterstrike - Reducing flipover abilities and simplifying: "You gain your proficiency bonus to weapon damage when attacking someone who damaged you on the previous turn."

Refusal to Yield - Nice

Refusal to Fall - Too many moving parts, Relentless Rage is the 5th edition version of this vision; just lift the wording from that.

Refusal to Fail - Needs to be toned down, a lot. Level 17-20 nuke abilities like this are not really a part of the 5th edition aesthetic. Something that increases the utility or extends pre-existing abilities to allow for better resource use would be more appropriate. For example, regain one stamina per hit die expended when using Battle Resilience and and you can use Refusal to Yield twice between long rests.

Swordsage
Bonus skill, nice.
Initiate Versatility - okay, but a meh introduction to the subclass. I'd swap its order with Martial Lore.

Martial Lore - I think this has potential, but it's currently clunky. Give them "Lore Points" - like Sorcery Points - that they can spend to use maneuvers instead of stamina or for additional effects as they gain more subclass levels; choose one when the ability is acquired and again at 6th and 11th levels (see Student of the Nine below). Keep the pool medium sized, but only refresh after a long rest and that should keep usage under control. One of the uses could be using a maneuver they don't know from a discipline they normally can't use.
Example

Student of Nine - This is a better name than Initiate Versatility and it's the same thing. Combine them together into a single ability at 3rd level (or whenever, depending on if you move the subclass start to 2nd level) that gives two manuevers from any school and you swap them during short and long rests. Reduces maneuver bloat and leaves room for a new stuff in Martial Lore. The swapping at rest increases utility and means the ability scales naturally.

Master of Nine - I really like the vision here, but I'd simplify to: If you use a maneuver from a different school than the previous maneuver made since the beginning of your last turn then you have advantage to hit and targets have disadvantage on any saving throw the maneuver requires them to make.

Warblade
Bonus skill, nice.
I don't like the introduction to this subclass. It's fighter-lite, without a strong theme cushion (like Paladins and the divine). What defines the subclass is that it is more combatative than the other two and Int themed. I saw them as the wizards of martial arts; they read books and have nerd-forum fights about optimal cutting angle with a battle axe while the Swordsages are off meditating on what it means to cut. They learn while fighting. Love of battle is, in my opinion, too broad for a subclass because it doesn't describe how someone does something, but why they do it. I realize that makes some of the more literal lifts from 3.5 harder, but it's a much easier task to design and PEACH with a "how they do" theme.

Adaptive Fighting Style - Gain Int bonus to hit and damage if attacking a target you attacked or attacked you since the beginning of your last turn.

"Battle Ardor" - Less "Lee Roy Jenkins," more "Well read in defensive options for any given situation, etc etc" Can't be surprised, advantage on initiative, etc.

Battle Champion (Too Fighter sounding in my opinion) - Imagine a wizard subclass gave access to all spell slots one level earlier; that's what this reads like to me. Maybe something like: two uses per short rest, maneuver does max effect.

Unrelenting Training - Spend some time training after a long rest. Roll two d20s and record the rolls. You can swap them for either one of your weapon attack rolls or an enemy's weapon attack roll. You can use each roll once and they go away when you do another long rest. Power-wise, could then be swapped with Battle Champion placement.

Battle Master - Six turns of roughly level 3 spell equivalents for free which can then be improved at cheap rate is way too good. If they are that much more combatative maybe this is where they get an extra attack (now at three).

Martial Maneuvers
Consider level-gating the better ones. I may go critique individually later.

[Ixidor92]

Thank you for all of your feedback Cesius, this gives me a lot to ponder when looking back over the class. I think I will definitely change how the stances work so that the player has some more choice there. I'll definitely also go back over the warblade with some edits. I particularly like your suggestion with the battle champion ability.

I'm a little confused as to why you would suggest a level-gate for some of the maneuvers though. The intended "level cap" as it were is the stamina required to use them initially. So if something requires 4 stamina you can't use it until level nine. Are you referring to some of the maneuvers that only cost 1 or 2 stamina?

[cesius]

Kind of. The stamina limit improves in level cycles, so all the maneuvers requiring 3 stamina unlock at the same time. A level gate would let you tweak the exact power of each of them relative to character level rather than setting a single bar for them.

The other thing, related more to 1 or 2 stamina cost powers, is that it lets you tweak the utility and economy scales. Maybe you want a level 8 shadowhand practitioner to regularly become invisible for one turn (with usual until you attack caveat). With 11 stamina that's 3 times in a fight, not bad, but nothing left for offense and it's not great for out-of-combat utility (18 seconds of invisibility between rests). If you level gated it then you can lower the stamina cost to 1: a four round combat, one use each round still leaves 7 stamina for other things and outside combat that could be up to a bit more than a minute of invisibility.

[Llama513]

I will take a look at it, feel free to take a look at my transfer for inspiration

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryejTJ2Ox

[Ixidor92]

EDITS:
-Stances have been reworked
-Blade meditation changed from affinity with a mundane weapon to restoration of stamina when low
-Stance adept removed from 10th level, replaced by school focus
-Crusader refuse to fall and refuse to fail edited
-Swordsage now gains lore points at first level, and gains additional uses for them at 6th level
-Swordsage gains two bonus maneuvers at 3rd and 11th level
-Warblade adaptive stance changed to utilize intellgence
-Warblade flavor text changed
-Warblade: Battle champion replaced with pursuit of perfection
-Warblade unrelenting training edited
-Warblade battle master changed to 3 attacks with attack action

[Llama513]

Adaptive Fighting Style is to powerful, you should make it be half their proficiency, otherwise you break bounded accuracy, if you have it apply to just damage rolls, it is still to powerful at 1st level but you could move it easier to a higher level

I really like your idea for using the mystic system for maneuvers, its an interesting take

[Ixidor92]

Adaptive Fighting Style is to powerful, you should make it be half their proficiency, otherwise you break bounded accuracy, if you have it apply to just damage rolls, it is still to powerful at 1st level but you could move it easier to a higher level

I really like your idea for using the mystic system for maneuvers, its an interesting take

Thanks for the feedback! What if the adaptive fighting style applied to attack rolls at level 1, and then was also added to damage rolls at a later level, such as 6th?

[Llama513]

Thanks for the feedback! What if the adaptive fighting style applied to attack rolls at level 1, and then was also added to damage rolls at a later level, such as 6th?

This issue is that it applies to attack rolls, what I for the ability is this

Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to adjust the style with which you fight. Every time you take a long rest you can change the fighting style you are gaining the benefits of.

If you want to keep the system you have, I would give them a bonus equal to half their proficiency bonus to their attack rolls at most, or just the bonus to their damage rolls, otherwise I would go with something closer to what I have in place

[Khrysaes]

I really like how it is implemented. Though, there are some things I would definitely draw inspiration from.

Some questions first:

1: Are stances always on? If so, then there isn't much choice to them as each school only has 3 disciplines that they are automatically given. The only choice would be which to choose first and which single one to not max.

2: Why the restriction on Disciplines based on subclass? There was definitely overlap in 3.5 edition.

3: Are you trying to make the class comparable to a half caster?

4: How does stamina recharge? I couldn't find where that is.

Suggestions:

1: Remove the restriction on the disciplines. Instead each subclass would gain bonus maneuvers known (Akin to a Warlock or the Xanathar's Ranger and Paladin subclasses). And their abilities enhance aspects of disciplines. The enhancements would need to work with all disciplines, but can be themed towards a general style. Maybe make a requiremet to know more/higher level maneuvers based on number of lower ones known.

2: Another alternative would be to separate the "sub class" into a focused discipline, and then the School. Think of this similar to the Warlock pact/ boon. With your discipline(pact) granting you free maneuvers, and your boon(crusader/swordsage/warblade) granting an addition feature and maybe some stance access(invocations).

3: Either make stamina comprable to the monk's ki, a warlock's spell slots(or spell point equivalent as in DMG), or a ranger's spell slots. I would also start them off with stamina points at level 2.
A monk has 1 ki per level starting at 2, for a total of 20, per short rest.
A warlock has Two 5th slots at 10th level(half caster) for 14 points/short rest, 4 cantrips, 20 spells(with archetype spells), and 5 invocations known. At 11 it is 3 slots/21 points, and at 17 it is 4/28.
A ranger has at most 11 spells known, with 5 in their archetypes. They get up to 4 1st; 3 2nd, 3rd and 4th; and that is up to 64 points per long rest.
A paladin has the same slots/points as a ranger, but prepares Charisma + 1/2 Pal level spells. And 10 oath spells.

4: Stances. I dont like them as they are as mentioned above. It may be better to have something akin to the Mystic's Psychic focus, where as a bonus action you change to have a permanent effect, so you dont have more than one active at a time(class feature could enable more than one(warblade)). Or, some are that, and some are either a bonus action activation that doesnt take a stamina point or remove your aforementioned focus, like the rogue's cunning action. I would put them into 3 tiers as permanent, which are the weakest, focus, which are stronger but you can only have one on at a time, and a usage, which are like rogue's cunning action, or other bonus actions. 8 or 9 is probably a good number.

5: Instead of the note you have in extra attack, reword the spells that are usable with it to say on hit. This would be more like the wording in Palaidn's smite, where they can activate the maneuver after a hit is confirmed. Alternatively, reword it to say "when making an attack as part of an attack action, use maneuver, must use before attack hits or misses." Something along these lines would clear up some confusion you may have forseen.

6: Consolidate Maneuvers. Take anything that has the same effect and make it into one thing. You could take some that are similar and also make it one thing, kind of like the spells with multiple effects.

Edit:
Lastly, As much as I like the implementation of the class, I don't feel that it has its own "Unique" mechanical gimmik (which makes my suggestions less useful, since they say to rip off other classes). Each class, or one of their archetypes has something unique about them.

Barbarian =rage, bard = inspiration, cleric = ??? divine intervetion/turn undead???, Druid = wild shape, fighter = battle master maneuvers/Action surges/Extra attacks (okay, so Fighter doesnt have much unique, but it does one thing well). Monk = ki/martial arts. Paladin = smite/auras, ranger = beast master. rogue = sneak attack, sorcerer = metamagic, warlock = pact magic, wizard = spell book.

What does yours have?

From what I can tell, it is spells/Abilities that you use points for. most similar to a monk. In fact, I think that a 9 disciplines monk would be a decent subclass. or 9 subclasses, or 3 for each 3.5 class.

[Ixidor92]

So to first answer your questions:


Are stances always on? If so, then there isn't much choice to them as each school only has 3 disciplines that they are automatically given. The only choice would be which to choose first and which single one to not max.
You can only have one stance active at any time. If you want to change which stance you are currently in, you use a bonus action to do so.


Why the restriction on Disciplines based on subclass? There was definitely overlap in 3.5 edition.
This was a decision I made as a result of rolling all three classes from 3.5 into one base class with 3 subclasses. In short, because the maneuvers each class had available were tied to the base class, then changing the disciplines available to what they were in 3.5 would inherently make swordsage the most appealing option due to the fact that they can access 6 of the 9 disciplines. Giving 3 disciplines to each subclass made it so each class has access to a similarly sized pool of techniques. Also, it means that I can take some ideas that I would like to have available to a specific class, and roll them into a maneuver (such as giving resistance to the crusader). So in short: it made the design of the class much simpler


Are you trying to make the class comparable to a half caster?
That was not my intention, though it may have ended up that way. I was trying as best I could to incorporate the maneuvers from 3.5 into 5e, and not turn the martial adept into a "muscle wizard" using spell slots for their maneuvers and 9 levels of maneuvers. This is actually the 3rd or 4th system I came up with and the one I was happiest with.


How does stamina recharge? I couldn't find where that is.
I'll make sure this is clearer in the text. Your stamina recharges after a short rest.

I'll go back and make a few things more clear. As with regards to your last question, the point of this class (as it was in 3.5) is to fulfill the "blademaster" fantasy. A character that has numerous secret techniques he learned from an ancient tradition, which separates him from the rank and file. Mechanically, he allows a player to play a weaponmaster with several unique offensive and defensive techniques, which he can hand-pick to whatever style he prefers. Similar to how as a wizard you are largely defined by a series of magically abilities you have, tailored to your personal play style.

Thanks for the feedback, and I will consider what you've said. The big thing I'm getting from your suggestions above is that it would be better to make 3 separate base classes that all utilize maneuvers, rather than have them all be from 1 class. Which I may consider tackling at a later date...

[Khrysaes]

So to first answer your questions:


You can only have one stance active at any time. If you want to change which stance you are currently in, you use a bonus action to do so.


This was a decision I made as a result of rolling all three classes from 3.5 into one base class with 3 subclasses. In short, because the maneuvers each class had available were tied to the base class, then changing the disciplines available to what they were in 3.5 would inherently make swordsage the most appealing option due to the fact that they can access 6 of the 9 disciplines. Giving 3 disciplines to each subclass made it so each class has access to a similarly sized pool of techniques. Also, it means that I can take some ideas that I would like to have available to a specific class, and roll them into a maneuver (such as giving resistance to the crusader). So in short: it made the design of the class much simpler


That was not my intention, though it may have ended up that way. I was trying as best I could to incorporate the maneuvers from 3.5 into 5e, and not turn the martial adept into a "muscle wizard" using spell slots for their maneuvers and 9 levels of maneuvers. This is actually the 3rd or 4th system I came up with and the one I was happiest with.


I'll make sure this is clearer in the text. Your stamina recharges after a short rest.

I'll go back and make a few things more clear. As with regards to your last question, the point of this class (as it was in 3.5) is to fulfill the "blademaster" fantasy. A character that has numerous secret techniques he learned from an ancient tradition, which separates him from the rank and file. Mechanically, he allows a player to play a weaponmaster with several unique offensive and defensive techniques, which he can hand-pick to whatever style he prefers. Similar to how as a wizard you are largely defined by a series of magically abilities you have, tailored to your personal play style.

Thanks for the feedback, and I will consider what you've said. The big thing I'm getting from your suggestions above is that it would be better to make 3 separate base classes that all utilize maneuvers, rather than have them all be from 1 class. Which I may consider tackling at a later date...

It would be easier to incorporate the different recovery mechanics and mechanics that are in the 3.5 classes with 3 base classes, I don't think that is nessicary.

As for my own suggestions and questions. You can do whatever you want with your class. The only thing I note is that each class has their MECHANICAL uniqueness.

I actually like a spellpoint/short rest caster, and unless im playing an AL legal game, if i play a warlock always try to get spell points. That said, that is basically the monk's ki system. And I like and enjoy the system you used. It is however, incredibly close to the warlock and mystic.

Another suggestion, that I didn't think about before, is that you could create "cantrip" maneuvers, actions that do small amounts of damage or give limited effect, unlimited uses.

As for maneuvers. Many of the effects are comparable to spell effects, which was in 3.5 too, so a muscle caster it ends up being.

Lastly, I think that separating maneuvers by discipline is fine, much like Mystic's disciplines. I just don't think that limiting access via subclass is a good choice. The subclass should enhance their use of said disciplines, not restrict access to the others, similar to the PHB wizards.

[Llama513]

It would be easier to incorporate the different recovery mechanics and mechanics that are in the 3.5 classes with 3 base classes, I don't think that is nessicary.

As for my own suggestions and questions. You can do whatever you want with your class. The only thing I note is that each class has their MECHANICAL uniqueness.

I actually like a spellpoint/short rest caster, and unless im playing an AL legal game, if i play a warlock always try to get spell points. That said, that is basically the monk's ki system. And I like and enjoy the system you used. It is however, incredibly close to the warlock and mystic.

Another suggestion, that I didn't think about before, is that you could create "cantrip" maneuvers, actions that do small amounts of damage or give limited effect, unlimited uses.

As for maneuvers. Many of the effects are comparable to spell effects, which was in 3.5 too, so a muscle caster it ends up being.

Lastly, I think that separating maneuvers by discipline is fine, much like Mystic's disciplines. I just don't think that limiting access via subclass is a good choice. The subclass should enhance their use of said disciplines, not restrict access to the others, similar to the PHB wizards.
I enjoy the mystic/monk system as well

Adding "cantrips" is a really good idea

I would tend to agree that the fact that sword sage would have 6 of the 9 disciplines would make it the most desirable, but then you gave them more maneuvers and access to all nine through their features, so they already are the most desirable.

I would suggest either splitting into three classes, or give everyone access to all disciplines, and then allow them to choose two extras disciplines known from a selection of three based on the subclass, like they did for Mystic