So a lich polymorphs into a dragon, which shapechanges into a human...

[Greywander]

Okay, so kind of weird question here. Let's say you manage to become a lich. Then you cast True Polymorph on yourself to permanently turn yourself into, say, and ancient bronze dragon. Are you a dracolich, or a normal, living dragon? If you use the dragon's shapechange feature to turn back into a humanoid, are you a normal, living humanoid, or a lich? What happens to your phylactery?

I suppose this also brings into question any sort of racial features, which is kind of awkward when racial features can include things like skill proficiencies that you wouldn't expect to lose just by shapechanging.

[DarkKnightJin]

Flavor wise: Probably a Dracolich and 'regular' Lich.
Phylactery remains the same between forms.
You don't lose your lichdom just because you Polymorph'd into something else.

[Greywander]

Thinking about this some more, it would make the most sense that you always remain a lich in the sense that dying will cause you to reform next to your phylactery (and when you reform, you will be undead), but polymorphing and shapechanging would allow you to become a "living" creature, at the cost of losing your other lich traits (like damage resistance/immunity, true sight, not needing to eat/drink/sleep/breathe, etc.). You can't stop being a lich by polymorphing, but you can mimic a living creature.

Thus, you could True Polymorph permanently into a "living" dragon without most of your lich traits, but when you die and reform you will be a full dracolich. Another casting of True Polymorph can revert this, or you can shapechange into a "living" humanoid.

Basically, it would put you in a similar state to what you were after putting your soul into a phylactery but before you killed yourself and reformed as a full lich. But I wonder, would this let you get around spells and effects that detect undead? What about Turn Undead?

[JackPhoenix]

Thinking about this some more, it would make the most sense that you always remain a lich in the sense that dying will cause you to reform next to your phylactery (and when you reform, you will be undead), but polymorphing and shapechanging would allow you to become a "living" creature, at the cost of losing your other lich traits (like damage resistance/immunity, true sight, not needing to eat/drink/sleep/breathe, etc.). You can't stop being a lich by polymorphing, but you can mimic a living creature.
Thus, you could True Polymorph permanently into a "living" dragon without most of your lich traits, but when you die and reform you will be a full dracolich. Another casting of True Polymorph can revert this, or you can shapechange into a "living" humanoid.
It's simple: TP change your stat block for the stat block of the target creature. Lich's rejuvenation is part of his stat block. When he dies in dragon form, he's dead, no respawn for him. It is possible he'll die the moment the TP would turn permanent, as he would lack soul (I assume the magic will keep him alive up to that point), or his phylactery would get emptied.

Basically, it would put you in a similar state to what you were after putting your soul into a phylactery but before you killed yourself and reformed as a full lich.
As I see it, killing yourself is what puts your soul into the phylactery. Until that point, you're still just a mortal.

But I wonder, would this let you get around spells and effects that detect undead? What about Turn Undead?
Polymorphed creatures have the same creature type as the creature they are polymorphed to.

[Avonar]

It's simple: TP change your stat block for the stat block of the target creature. Lich's rejuvenation is part of his stat block. When he dies in dragon form, he's dead, no respawn for him. It is possible he'll die the moment the TP would turn permanent, as he would lack soul (I assume the magic will keep him alive up to that point), or his phylactery would get emptied.

Well no, I would disagree here. When the dragon form dies, the spell ends and he reverts to his lich form. True Polymorph becoming permanent does not mean he is now a natural dragon, he is still a lich magically transformed into a dragon. Therefore he still has a phylactery as he is still naturally a lich, just magically given dragon properties.

All True Polymorph becoming permanent means is that no concentration is involved. The effects of the spell do not change in the slightest, it can still be dispelled by the caster etc.

[Asmotherion]

I like this question a lot.

True Polymorph is not limited to any form. However the phylactery remains, and so do it's benefits. Thus, you are a normal, living humanoid, untill killed, and then the phylactery kicks in, and reanimates you as a Lich, in the appropriate time. That said, if one plans to do this, the Clone spell is a more efficient way to imortality than Lichdom, as Lichdom is meant to be the Ultimate Necromancer. A Lich would probably never choose to do so for an extended perior of time.

Also, a Lich, according to 5e lore needs to "constantly feed his phylactery with fresh souls or run the risk of becoming a Demilich". I'm not sure how this would interact with a True Polymorphed Lich (possibly paranoia, and incrissing agressivness), but if he was to come back to life, he would come back as a Demilich, and (unlike 3.5) that's not a better, more powerful Lich.

Ultimatelly, Lichdom is a more specialised option for imortality, favored by dedicated Necromancers, as really powerful spellcasters have other ways to become imortal (through the Clone spell).

[Easy_Lee]

An easy way to think of polymorph abilities is as a stack. He's a lich beneath a dragon beneath a human. When the human dies, the dragon comes out. When the dragon dies, the lich comes out. Polymorph magic sits on top of the existing form - it does not replace the form permanently. Even a permanent polymorph is only permanent until that fork is destroyed.

You could make a cool BBEG like this.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I think they would turn into a bronze dragon, or it could be up to you or your dm.

[KorvinStarmast]

Okay, so kind of weird question here. Let's say you manage to become a lich. Then you cast True Polymorph on yourself to permanently turn yourself into, say, and ancient bronze dragon. Are you a dracolich, or a normal, living dragon? If you use the dragon's shapechange feature to turn back into a humanoid, are you a normal, living humanoid, or a lich? What happens to your phylactery?

I suppose this also brings into question any sort of racial features, which is kind of awkward when racial features can include things like skill proficiencies that you wouldn't expect to lose just by shapechanging.
It can't turn into an ancient bronze dragon, since a lich is CR 21 and ancient Bronze Dragon is CR 22. It could however turn into an ancient Brass dragon. :smallcool:

From the SRD (and the latest errata to the PHB):


If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled. The original PHB indicated that the transformation was permanent, but that raised the "what does permanent mean" question that has various answers.

What dispels True Polymorph?

The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies.
Most monsters die when they get to 0 HP, so in one case you can argue that unlike a PC, the dragon does not revert to Liche, but dies a dragon. If you threw a Dispel Magic at the dragon, and succeeded in overcoming the spell cast by the liche (9th level) it would during the encounter revert to lich by that means. (You would need to know that it was a lich in dragon form in that case).


Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a successful check, the spell ends. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you automatically end the effects of a spell on the target if the spell’s level is equal to or less than the level of the spell slot you used.

A 9th level dispel magic would work without the roll.


That said, in the PHB we find this:

When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.

Monsters and Death
Most GMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws. Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the GM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.
It can either die a dragon, or revert to O HP and by that mechanic turn back into its original creature type, which was a Lich.

If you want to make this even more interesting, there is an alignment problem between lich and ancient brass dragon.
Lich is any evil alignment while a brass dragon is chaotic good. In the case of the true polymorph being "permanent" rather than temporary for a battle, a chaotic good dragon is going to have little interest in pursuing the aims and goals of an evil lich ... but all of that becomes fodder for DM ruling and adjudication.

[Quoxis]

You've just created my next bbeg - a lich that uses his centuries worth of knowledge to polymorph himself into a dragon late into the campaign, just to find out he now has to eat/sleep/defacate again.

[Quoxis]

An easy way to think of polymorph abilities is as a stack. He's a lich beneath a dragon beneath a human. When the human dies, the dragon comes out. When the dragon dies, the lich comes out. Polymorph magic sits on top of the existing form - it does not replace the form permanently. Even a permanent polymorph is only permanent until that fork is destroyed.

You could make a cool BBEG like this.

Those russian doll-in-a-doll-in-a-doll things come to mind.

"Ha, you think you are about to slay me, but this isn't even my final form! You thought i'm just a human, but it was me, Dio i'm a lich inside a dragon inside a human inside another dragon inside a squirrel inside a... Damn, i lost track at that point..."

[Easy_Lee]

Those russian doll-in-a-doll-in-a-doll things come to mind.

"Ha, you think you are about to slay me, but this isn't even my final form! You thought i'm just a human, but it was me, Dio i'm a lich inside a dragon inside a human inside another dragon inside a squirrel inside a... Damn, i lost track at that point..."

I think that's exactly how it works. And one could imagine that someone who is short lived or otherwise has an undesirable" true form" might want to conceal it with a "permanent" polymorph. One might also imagine that nearly any form that creature could take would be less powerful than the one who could cast True Polymorph.

It fits perfectly.

[RSP]

A couple things:

The dragon's shape change doesn't work like Polymorph: if it dies in humanoid form, it's dead, though the corpse will revert to its (still deceased) dragon form. It also keeps its normal HPs in any shapechanged form, also unlike Polymorph. Here's the description:

"Change Shape: The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any Equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the dragon's choice).

In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance, lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. Its Statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any Class Features or legendary actions of that form."

As for what happens if TP is permanent and the creature dies, I'd say it probably dies, though a Dispel Magic on the corpse would revert it to its original living form. From the spell:

"The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled."

Note it doesn't say "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the duration changes to until it is dispelled" but rather it says "the transformation lasts until it is dispelled."

Therefore the reverting back at 0 HPs clause is removed if made permanent because it explicitly says the only way to end the transformation is via it being dispelled.

[Avonar]

With enough True Polymorphs you could create an enemy that appears as 1 CR higher every time its defeated. Have a Survival game, how many creatures can the party get through?

[Easy_Lee]

If we rule that permanent true polymorph does not revert when the target drops to zero hit points, then we simply need to add a contingency: "if I drop to zero hit points or this spell has one minute left or I say (password), cast dispel magic on me."

The BBEG will need to reset himself every ten days unless he can extend the duration of Contingency.

[Provo]

Polymorph within a polymorph does sound like a fun boss.

Make one of the forms an object instead of a creature... an incredibly dense, tough object. It will only last 8 hours instead of being permenant (per the spell description). A contingency spell will set off a bunch of traps against the players if the boss ever reaches this form.

[Provo]

If we rule that permanent true polymorph does not revert when the target drops to zero hit points, then we simply need to add a contingency: "if I drop to zero hit points or this spell has one minute left or I say (password), cast dispel magic on me."

The BBEG will need to reset himself every ten days unless he can extend the duration of Contingency.

I'm also imagining how this fight can be trivialized by an anti-magic field. All the forms are suddenly gone at once!

Does anti-magic field or dispel magic even affect true polymorphed characters after the effect becomes permenant? I could see the argument that it is no longer active magic, but rather a new natural state.

[Easy_Lee]

I'm also imagining how this fight can be trivialized by an anti-magic field. All the forms are suddenly gone at once!

Does anti-magic field or dispel magic even affect true polymorphed characters after the effect becomes permenant? I could see the argument that it is no longer active magic, but rather a new natural state.

I think so, since TP says it still ends when dispelled.

[RSP]

If we rule that permanent true polymorph does not revert when the target drops to zero hit points, then we simply need to add a contingency: "if I drop to zero hit points or this spell has one minute left or I say (password), cast dispel magic on me."

The BBEG will need to reset himself every ten days unless he can extend the duration of Contingency.

You could do something with Contingency, however, you'd still be relying on the DC 19 ability check (as at most you could prep a lvl 5 Dispel Magic) to dispel, which is far from a given. If that fails, you're stuck until someone else can help you out.

[Easy_Lee]

You could do something with Contingency, however, you'd still be relying on the DC 19 ability check (as at most you could prep a lvl 5 Dispel Magic) to dispel, which is far from a given. If that fails, you're stuck until someone else can help you out.

Dispel magic can be upset without changing its "spell level".

[RSP]

Dispel magic can be upset without changing its "spell level".

Incorrect. Per the PHB:

"Casting a Spell at a Higher Level
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into."

So Dispel Magic cast using a 9th level slot makes it a 9th level spell. As Contingency limits the contingent spell to 5th level, you cannot upcast Dispel Magic past 5th.

[Dalebert]

Jeremy Crawford discusses polymorph effects at length (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWOsPhKNyPk).

[Tanarii]

Note it doesn't say "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the duration changes to until it is dispelled" but rather it says "the transformation lasts until it is dispelled."

Therefore the reverting back at 0 HPs clause is removed if made permanent because it explicitly says the only way to end the transformation is via it being dispelled.It does not follow that "last until it is dispelled" removes the reversion at 0 hit points.

[Easy_Lee]

Incorrect. Per the PHB:

"Casting a Spell at a Higher Level
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into."

So Dispel Magic cast using a 9th level slot makes it a 9th level spell. As Contingency limits the contingent spell to 5th level, you cannot upcast Dispel Magic past 5th.

That's interesting since I've never seen it ruled that way. In any case, it's an oddly specific limitation for an oddly specific set of abilities that only a BBEG would use. I don't think it will ever come up.

[RSP]

It does not follow that "last until it is dispelled" removes the reversion at 0 hit points.


Agree. That part is in the description of the spell; not part of the duration. So I don't see how changing the duration changes something inside the spell that explicitly says it will end the spell early.

An analogy would be Hypnotic Pattern. It has a duration of one minute. It also says if you use an action to wake someone, they are no longer affected. You could double the duration with metamagic and it wouldn't change the fact that someone can be woken up early with an action.

Except it doesn't say it changes the Duration of the spell, it says the transformation lasts until dispelled. "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled."

That line overwrites the conditions in the previous line.

So TP lasts either:
- for the duration (1 hour, Concetration)
- until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies.

Or, if Concentration is maintain for the 1 hour Duration:
- the Transformation lasts until dispelled."

Again, that last line doesn't say "the duration extends until dispelled" or anything similar. It also doesn't say it "lasts until dispelled or the target drops to 0 hit points or dies."

For the line "The transformation lasts until it is dispelled" to be a true statement (and the description tells us it is), the transformation cannot also last until the target drops to 0 hit points.

[Greywander]

It can't turn into an ancient bronze dragon, since a lich is CR 21 and ancient Bronze Dragon is CR 22. It could however turn into an ancient Brass dragon. :smallcool:
I actually meant to type Brass Dragon, but for some reason I wrote bronze instead. Since fire damage is more common (and thus resistance is better) and you can already swim (albeit at half speed) but not burrow, I find Brass to be a more optimal choice. Too bad white dragons don't have change shape, since they have burrow and swim speed.

Jeremy Crawford discusses polymorph effects at length (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWOsPhKNyPk).
So apparently, "permanent" simply means you don't need to concentrate on the spell any more. It doesn't actually turn you into a natural version of that creature, i.e. the True Polymorph can still be dispelled or suspended by an anti-magic field. Also apparently you can stack multiple instances of True Polymorph, meaning you can polymorph yourself into an ancient brass dragon, then into a t-rex, then into a giant ape, etc. and every time your HP drops to 0 you would revert to a previous form. You can literally use this to do a multistage boss with different forms. I don't see why the party wizard couldn't use it to repeatedly True Polymorph another party member in order to make them super beefy. The wizard probably couldn't do this to himself unless his new form also had the True Polymorph spell (metallic dragons could probably shape change into a caster that had True Polymorph, so there's that.

Also, I had assumed that it might be possible to True Polymorph into a dragon (which as I've just discovered, isn't truly "permanent", but just a spell with an indefinite duration), and then change shape back into your original form, basically giving you the change shape feature for free with the option to also turn into a dragon. From the spell description for Shape Change, though it specifically says you turn into an average example of the type of creature, which leads me to believe that you couldn't turn yourself into a specific person (even if that person is yourself). The metallic dragon's change shape feature might not be exactly the same but I don't see a reason to think it would be.

Ultimatelly, Lichdom is a more specialised option for imortality, favored by dedicated Necromancers, as really powerful spellcasters have other ways to become imortal (through the Clone spell).
The thing about the Clone spell vs. Lichdom is:
Clone has a 120 day cooldown time during which the new clone matures. Lich is instantly ready again.
That said, Clone does revive you basically immediately whereas Lich takes 1d10 days to reform.
The clone pod is a lot bigger and thus harder to hide than a phylactery.
Pro for Clone: you're not undead. Con for Clone: you're not undead.
Liches don't need to eat, drink, sleep, or breathe, and are immune to poison and disease. See previous entry.
Liches are also immune to non-magical weapons, and resistant to cold, lightning, and necrotic damage.
Liches can paralyze with a touch, have true sight, and a bunch of condition immunities.
However, liches can be detected by effects that detect undead, and can be turned by clerics. So a point for Clone.
Being a spooky scary skeleton probably isn't going to do your PR department favors, so another point for Clone.
I believe it's implied that liches don't get sexy times, but if that mattered to you you probably should have rolled a shirtless barbarian instead of an ultranerd.

I mean, there's an epic boon that grants immortality, but even with that I'd still consider becoming a lich just for the other benefits.

[Tanarii]

Also, I had assumed that it might be possible to True Polymorph into a dragon (which as I've just discovered, isn't truly "permanent", but just a spell with an indefinite duration), and then change shape back into your original form, basically giving you the change shape feature for free with the option to also turn into a dragon. From the spell description for Shape Change, though it specifically says you turn into an average example of the type of creature, which leads me to believe that you couldn't turn yourself into a specific person (even if that person is yourself). The metallic dragon's change shape feature might not be exactly the same but I don't see a reason to think it would be.
The metallic dragon Change Shape feature has nothing to do with the True Polymorph or Shape Change spells. Nor Polymorph for that matter. It is it's own thing with its own description.