killing someone in their sleep

[Camman1984]

Is there a mechanic for killing a sleeping enemy? for reasons known only to her my CN rogue has decided neutrality is for the weak and needs to murder a defenceless watch captain for simply doing his job and reacting to a situation that my rogue kind of caused.

do I really have to stand over him and slowly stab him to death 1d4+2d6 no at a time and hope he doesn't wake up?

similar question for knocking someone out quickly. most spy films would end completely differently if the spy had to sneak up on his mark and hit him over the head 30 times to knock him out.

[the_brazenburn]

You could maybe rule that she gets to "take twenty" like you could in 3.5 if she has enough time to set up the blow. This results in an auto-crit: 2d4+4d6 piercing damage, which should be enough to kill any guard.

[Pelle]

For assassinating sleeping target, just have it happen autmatically, unless the target has some special ability. If there is a risk in making sound to alarm others, or messing up in some way, you could maybe do a Dex (stealth/sleight of hand) check.

IMO, this is not a combat situation, it's a sneaky situation, and you should not use the combat rules, unless the target wakes up...


As for knocking someone out quickly, I guess that's what Sneak Attack is for. If it's a random guard, that should work anyways, but you could also use an ability check as above if it seems appropriate...

[Aett_Thorn]

I would at least say that all attacks against a sleeping enemy would have advantage, and MAYBE that they automatically crit.

[Asmotherion]

-Sleeping creatures are treated as unconsious.
-Attack rolls against it have advantage.
-Any attack that hits it is an automatic critical if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature (including your sneak attack dice).
-It would generally take an other free round (attack) for it to become consious (waking up as a reaction, and then making a wisdom saving throw or loose his action and be incapaciated for the round), and prone as it would be in shock from receiving damage.

This would make an average NPC guard an easy kill in his sleep. On the other hand, a high level boss would be less easy to "assasinate" unless you are an actual assasin who specialises in the domain... imagin this as the more experianced martial veteran or paranoid Wizard "hearing" your breath the moment you're about to stab him, and avoiding a potentially lethal hit to the neck, instead receiving it on the shoulder.

[jas61292]

IMO, this is not a combat situation, it's a sneaky situation, and you should not use the combat rules, unless the target wakes up...

This.

D&D rules, especially in 5e, are not there to be a world simulator. The rules for combat are designed to be used in combat, and only in combat. If, as a DM, you think it is appropriate that a character should just be able to slit someone's throat and be done with it, then let them. That is not breaking any rules, because the rules for combat simply do not apply.

Of course, there is a difference between rewarding clever stealth play and infiltration, and allowing players to always insta-kill by using stealth. Bypassing combat via a simple death is a choice allowed to the DM, not to the players.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I'd say its an auto crit but depending on how many hit points they have if they don't die then I would let the attacker take another turn or have the target surprised. It should one hit most weak enemies you kill. Just NOT the Tarasque most certanly NOT the Tarasque.

[Demonslayer666]

As Asmotherion said, treat them as unconscious.

As a DM, I would treat this as automatic unless the target was really important to the story, or you had be completely silent.

With an important NPC that you were supposed to fight as party of the story, I'd certainly make it more dramatic.

[Lombra]

A sleeping target is unconcious. All attack rolls are made with advantage and all hits are critical hits. For a rogue that means that an average guard won't survive.

But see with your DM first, he's gonna be the ultimte judge.

[willdaBEAST]

To me a key part of this question is, does this apply to enemies attacking PCs in their sleep too?

I think you open a can of worms by auto-killing sleeping targets and personally believe an auto crit is appropriate, maybe even with a reduced AC since the target isn't actively guarding itself.

It's a little clumsy and for stealth missions you can hand waive it, but I'm much more into the idea of incapacitating guards you sneak up on, rather than outright killing them. Since if the tables are turned, you don't want sleeping PCs to be that vulnerable. You also want to avoid taking away from features like assassins, who are specifically trained to one shot whoever they get a drop on.

[Jormengand]

People simply don't survive having someone cut their throats in their sleep. You could import 3.5's coup de grace rules, where the attack not only automatically hits, not only is an automatic critical hit, but also forces a near-impossible fortitude save against death. Humans, even experienced humans, should not be routinely able to survive having someone stab them in the throat in their sleep.

[Tanarii]

Unless they're a special NPC that might wake up at the last second and fight back, just have it be an automatic kill.

If they are, treat them as unconscious for the attack. If it doesn't kill them, they wake up just in time to turn it into a non-lethal blow.mmsame goes for PCs, since they're already special.

As far as a "movie knockout" goes, I just don't allow those, unless you can do enough damage to render them unconscious in a single blow. If the NPC has low enough HP and the PC can pull it off, voila! Movie magic accomplished.

[Slipperychicken]

Killing people who are unable to resist is a situation where the outcome is not in doubt (as opposed to when the act of killing must happen in a span of seconds in a high-stress combat situation). Therefore no rolls or other game rules are needed to resolve it.

That said, unconscious characters should be permitted ether a perception roll, or passive perception check, to determine whether they can awaken and begin to react in time.

[Provo]

Agreed that regular combat rules aren't sufficient, but I would imagine that health or constitution should come into play somehow. Sure a guard who's throat is slit is pretty much guaranteed to die, but what about an ogre? What about a dragon?

I would certainly give an auto crit. If more than half of the targets health is dealt, then they die.

The Con save idea works as well. The results will be more at the mercy of RNG that way which many of you may prefer.

[Doug Lampert]

People simply don't survive having someone cut their throats in their sleep. You could import 3.5's coup de grace rules, where the attack not only automatically hits, not only is an automatic critical hit, but also forces a near-impossible fortitude save against death. Humans, even experienced humans, should not be routinely able to survive having someone stab them in the throat in their sleep.

Actually, people HAVE survived that, specifically, in the case remember, a small child had both arteries cut and the head fell forward and closed the arteries with a good enough seal that a child was found alive hours after the throat was cut as part of a murder/suicide, and the child lived.

And the ones who don't survive it have up to 30 seconds or so to express their displeasure with their impending death, which is five rounds in D&D time. Most normal people go into shock and don't do anything with that 30 seconds, which is basically saying they start making death saves having lost all their HP and then die.

But it's likely to be loud, messy, and may well involve a rather vigorous counterattack.

If "throat cut while asleep" was automatic instant death we'd do executions by cutting the throat, we don't do executions that way in the real world, because it's actually a very messy and not all that quick way to die. In a world with magical healing it's especially uncertain.

The game has rules for unconscious, apply them, autocrit on a hit with advantage vs someone not wearing armor is probably enough.

[Slipperychicken]

Agreed that regular combat rules aren't sufficient, but I would imagine that health or constitution should come into play somehow. Sure a guard who's throat is slit is pretty much guaranteed to die, but what about an ogre? What about a dragon?

I'd probably just say that a bigger monster needs a bigger blade. Daggers are quite sufficient for people, and probably for ogres too (being the same size category as horses, which can be killed with knives), but a huge or gargantuan creature might need a longsword or shortsword to do the job efficiently.

[StoicLeaf]

I'm in the "he ded" camp.

The combat rules are there to provide an abstraction for combat.
combat requires two hostile parties, geared for combat, willing to fight.

You don't have that when one of those parties isn't aware, isn't armored or ready to go.

If you want to add some "inconveniences" such as loud gurgling or blood spraying everywhere, go for it.

[greenstone]

If, as a DM, you think it is appropriate that a character should just be able to slit someone's throat and be done with it, then let them.

However, be prepared for a world of whining when you do it to one of their PCs in 6 months mouahahahaha!

[StoicLeaf]

However, be prepared for a world of whining when you do it to one of their PCs in 6 months mouahahahaha!

Players are such hypocrites :P

[Malifice]

You make the attack at advantage, and if it hits, it's an automatic critical hit.

Being a rogue and doubling sneak attack, this should kill or seriously injure most CR appropriate foes.

Hit points represent (among other things) luck. If your blow doesn't kill the target he got lucky.

It's no different to when it happens to PCs. I'm not in the business of depriving martials of their primary class feature (large HD and lots of HP) arbitrarily.

Fighters are Kirk. They don't get killed in their sleep by redshirts. High Hp/ CR monsters are Khan. Neither do they get offed by a nobody.

[jojo]

I fall into the "this isn't combat" camp.

I wouldn't recommend allowing the PC to waltz into the room and murder their way to success with a wave of your hand though.

I'd suggest that they be forced to undergo at least a minor stealth challenge. Some sort of ticking clock in the form of shift changes for the guards or something similar butting up against a locked door or window. Stealth must be maintained against the Passive Perception of all involved, including the sleeping NPC to avoid raising an alarm and blowing the PCs shot.

No taking 10 due to the time constraints you impose.

If the PC manages to pull off a successful infiltration and put themselves in a locked room with their target... At that point I would rule that any melee attack made within 5 feet auto-crits, including sneak attack damage.
The PC still needs to get out clean of course but it's unlikely that a guy with his throat cut is really going to be very aggressive in preventing that, regardless of whether or not they ultimately survive. I base that assessment on a fairly high degree of experience with both occupational and battlefield trauma.

Mechanically I think that it's generally unlikely for even a critical sneak-attack to auto-kill a CR appropriate opponent. Although I have only DMd 2 campaigns in 5e and not previously encountered this sort of issue, so my understanding in this case could be incorrect or incomplete.
If I understand correctly however, then a critical sneak attack would likely leave our CR appropriate NPC solidly in the negative with two failed death saving throws. Survival is possible, but incredibly unlikely.
In the unlikely event of survival the NPC in question could potentially become a recurring adversary, which always adds an interesting element to the campaign.

As a DM running/ruling in the scenario in question I would likely handle the situation as I described above.

[BW022]

Besides the fact that the opponent is unconscious and therefore... advanced and an automatic critical hit.

1. You could do things other than attack. For example, tie them up -- effectively making them unable to move, attack, or possibly helpless for rounds if not permanently. You could hang them, put a sack over their head, place flasks of oil around them, put a net over them, put a bear trap on their leg, tie them by the neck to a horse and sent it running, possibly toss them out a window, poisoned, drugged, silenced, gagged, etc.

2. You can disarm them. Removing weapons, armor, spell books, components, etc. from their area or person. Baring a monk... most humanoids are pretty helpless without some equipment.

3. You can wait for the rest of the party to come. Everyone else can ready and attack for when you attack. Effectively 3-4 characters could easily all be virtually automatically hitting and do critical hits.

4. Even if the creature survives a hit... then you go into initiative. DM would be free to say give the creature a disadvantage on initiative (. A prone creature could easily be subject to another round of attacks with advantage and given steps in #1 or #2, could be tied-up, helpless, and/or have no effective attacks.

If the player(s) setup the attack with even a reasonable plan, then it would be up to the DM to decide if there is any point in running the combat. Say some 3rd-level PCs have a rogue sneak into a room with three ogres... the rogue (rolling) slips a noose around their necks, ties it to the bed post and moves any weapons away from reach. The rest of the PCs move around one ogre and attack. Ok... even with 3 PCs... they will likely do 10hp each. That is 40hp, plus another 40hp before the ogre gets to react.

It would likely be quick enough to run the combat, basically allowing the PCs to roll attacks and damage. Might be fun. To save time, you could just rule that they kill the ogres... possibly making a roll after the first two to see if the other(s) wake up -- maybe only then starting the combat with two (or one) ogre left -- although prone, no weapons, and trying to get noose off their neck(s).

[BeefGood]

-Sleeping creatures are treated as unconsious.

I recall looking in the rules for a link from "asleep" to either "unconscious" or "incapacitated", because those are officially-defined states. The closest I've found is that the Sleep spell description seems to offhandedly equate sleeping and unconsciousness. Does anyone know of a more direct link?

[Coffee_Dragon]

I recall looking in the rules for a link from "asleep" to either "unconscious" or "incapacitated", because those are officially-defined states. The closest I've found is that the Sleep spell description seems to offhandedly equate sleeping and unconsciousness. Does anyone know of a more direct link?

It was spelled out in Xanathar's.

[Vogie]

I fall into the more cinematic auto-kill mode, but I would make the surrounding area a little more difficult.

If a person is creeping in themselves, I'd say require 3 stealth checks - One for the outdoor area, one for entering the room silently and the final for coming next to the bed and preparing to strike. The first one would alert other guards if failed, the second 2 could wake the captain if failed.

[Naanomi]

I’ve done ‘can you kill them in one hit with max rolled damage on a crit’ as a measure if I allowed an auto-kill or not... someone with too many HP to kill in that way are just too tough/Lucky/whatever to go down that way

The real challenge is keeping them quiet as they go through their death-throws so you don’t attract attention

[MrStabby]

I would say dead. No real abstract reasoning or discussion about what is realistic. Just what is a good use of session time.

Running a combat with a foregone conclusion, no real tension and likely the spotlight on just one player doesn't seem to be a good use of time.

[tieren]

I’ve done ‘can you kill them in one hit with max rolled damage on a crit’ as a measure if I allowed an auto-kill or not... someone with too many HP to kill in that way are just too tough/Lucky/whatever to go down that way

The real challenge is keeping them quiet as they go through their death-throws so you don’t attract attention

I agree.

I would auto hit and auto crit, but if the target has enough hp to survive that then they got lucky, ie you tried to slit their throat but ended up cutting too low and missed the jugular, or they rolled in their sleep at just the last moment, whatever.

remember hp are not just meat, it includes luck and will.

[BeefGood]

It was spelled out in Xanathar's.
Don't have Xanathar's yet--did not know this--thanks!

[Specter]

Let him roll Stealth as per usual. If he succeeds, he kills the guy.
You shouldn't use combat mechanics when there's no combat.

[mephnick]

You shouldn't use combat mechanics when there's no combat.

Good thing attacking someone initiates combat. There are rules for this, use them.

Or don't. But don't complain when the PCs realize they can just sneak-murder anyone they want and your setting becomes that Fallout game where you kill all the NPCs before loading a save.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Or don't. But don't complain when the PCs realize they can just sneak-murder anyone they want and your setting becomes that Fallout game where you kill all the NPCs before loading a save.

Can the setting become that Fallout game where I inject the King with 14 Super Stimpaks and rest for 10 minutes and then he's lying in a pool of blood and everyone's like, "Nice weather we're having"?

[Demonslayer666]

Besides the fact that the opponent is unconscious and therefore... advanced and an automatic critical hit.

1. You could do things other than attack. For example, tie them up -- effectively making them unable to move, attack, or possibly helpless for rounds if not permanently. You could hang them, put a sack over their head, place flasks of oil around them, put a net over them, put a bear trap on their leg, tie them by the neck to a horse and sent it running, possibly toss them out a window, poisoned, drugged, silenced, gagged, etc.

2. You can disarm them. Removing weapons, armor, spell books, components, etc. from their area or person. Baring a monk... most humanoids are pretty helpless without some equipment.

3. You can wait for the rest of the party to come. Everyone else can ready and attack for when you attack. Effectively 3-4 characters could easily all be virtually automatically hitting and do critical hits.

4. Even if the creature survives a hit... then you go into initiative. DM would be free to say give the creature a disadvantage on initiative (. A prone creature could easily be subject to another round of attacks with advantage and given steps in #1 or #2, could be tied-up, helpless, and/or have no effective attacks.

If the player(s) setup the attack with even a reasonable plan, then it would be up to the DM to decide if there is any point in running the combat. Say some 3rd-level PCs have a rogue sneak into a room with three ogres... the rogue (rolling) slips a noose around their necks, ties it to the bed post and moves any weapons away from reach. The rest of the PCs move around one ogre and attack. Ok... even with 3 PCs... they will likely do 10hp each. That is 40hp, plus another 40hp before the ogre gets to react.

It would likely be quick enough to run the combat, basically allowing the PCs to roll attacks and damage. Might be fun. To save time, you could just rule that they kill the ogres... possibly making a roll after the first two to see if the other(s) wake up -- maybe only then starting the combat with two (or one) ogre left -- although prone, no weapons, and trying to get noose off their neck(s).

You cannot tie someone up in their sleep without waking them up using normal means unless they are severely impaired (drunk, drugged, etc).

Removing weapons from immediate reach is a good idea, but in game terms, you would not accomplish much since you only get an AO if they leave your reach.

The rest of the party would not likely be able to sneak in with the rogue.

@OP - I forgot to answer your second question, you can always choose to knock someone out that you reduce to 0 HP.

[Tanarii]

The real challenge is keeping them quiet as they go through their death-throws so you don’t attract attentionOr make sure you have good cover, depending on if they're throwing something substantial or just their pillows. And blood.

[Specter]

Good thing attacking someone initiates combat. There are rules for this, use them.

Or don't. But don't complain when the PCs realize they can just sneak-murder anyone they want and your setting becomes that Fallout game where you kill all the NPCs before loading a save.

I would only accept this argument if you also used HP/combat rules when someone is on a guillotine. The effect is the same, regardless of whether combat starts or not.

[Naanomi]

I would only accept this argument if you also used HP/combat rules when someone is on a guillotine. The effect is the same, regardless of whether combat starts or not.
I would use rules akin to traps for guillotines, unless they were being used as an improvised weapon

[mephnick]

I would only accept this argument if you also used HP/combat rules when someone is on a guillotine. The effect is the same, regardless of whether combat starts or not.

I feel like attacking an unrestrained target in their sleep with a knife is a little different than a weighted blade against a restrained and helpless prisoner. But yeah, I'd probably allow for a botched execution if the insane damage I gave a guillotine didn't kill someone. I highly doubt guillotine executions had a flawless success rate.

[Naanomi]

I feel like attacking an unrestrained target in their sleep with a knife is a little different than a weighted blade against a restrained and helpless prisoner. But yeah, I'd probably allow for a botched execution if the insane damage I gave a guillotine didn't kill someone. I highly doubt guillotine executions had a flawless success rate.
Especially not against 400+HP barbarians with skin that provides comparable protection to plate armor and the like

[mephnick]

Especially not against 400+HP barbarians with skin that provides comparable protection to plate armor and the like

That's the other thing I don't get. People bring up all these examples of INSTANT DEATH scenarios like shot in the head, throat cut, execution, falling a thousand feet etc etc

And like...there's examples in the boring ol' real world of people surviving all these things? Multiple times! Why can't a lucky/fated fantasy hero do it?

Execution fails because you're too buff? That's badass!

[Joe the Rat]

Nah, execution fails because you have too much plot armor.

Remember, hit points are not meat points. It's your ability to survive physically dangerous situations (such as combat) through toughness, pain tolerance, skill and experience, luck, and that certain je ne sais quoi that important characters have.

If hit points are in play, the character's martial power (by level and hit dice) is relevant - That ridiculous James Bondian roll-in-your-sleep-at-the-right-moment luck, or the edge of awareness sensitivity brought on by surviving dangers that come in the night - for whatever reason, the DM has decided your target needs a fair shake. That not-quite-lethal blow is an injury, a slight (50-odd hp) cut that doesn't quite penetrate the vital bits, but clearly throws them off their game enough to be "bloodied". Hurry up before the guards come charging in.

If the DM thinks it's appropriate to simply gank the target (presumably following a stealth roll), then you should do so.

If you're not sure which way the DM will play it, get some poison. You're already creeping into the bedroom for a dishonorable stabbing in the throat, why not add a little venom to make sure they don't make too much of a fuss after being roused to consciousness by the sharp pain, getting blood all over the place while you wait for the brain to stop beeping.


PCs should always get to use hit points in these situations - they're sort of important to the "story" of the game.

[Doug Lampert]

I would only accept this argument if you also used HP/combat rules when someone is on a guillotine. The effect is the same, regardless of whether combat starts or not.

The Guillotine was INVENTED precisely because, tied up, completely helpless, with a solid straight shot, with a specially designed ax intended to make this easy, by a specially trained man, was not in fact a reliable instant kill.

Too many people required multiple blows as they messily screamed after the first ax shot. And "realistically" that ax shot was far more more deadly than anything likely with a dagger.

That is why the Guillotine replaced executioners with an ax, because the executioner with a special ax and a totally helpless target failed an unacceptably high percentage of the time.

The Guillotine then ALSO went out of use because it also was not in fact a reliable instant kill.

Why do people want fantasy heroes to be so much more fragile than real people?

[MrStabby]

I don't think an executioner with an axe really failed. They just took longer to succeed. After the first messy blow the victim was realistically not going to survive - they might not have stopped thrashing and moving but they were not going to get up and walk away.

[Doug Lampert]

I don't think an executioner with an axe really failed. They just took longer to succeed. After the first messy blow the victim was realistically not going to survive - they might not have stopped thrashing and moving but they were not going to get up and walk away.

Sure, but in a world with magic, there is a BIG difference between, messily and noisily expires over several rounds and instantly dead. Healing spells exist.

Additionally, if you only require stealth rolls to get an instant kill, what do you think HP represent? If it's the usual combination of stuff like luck and divine favor and other stuff, well, the guy can just happen to wake up no matter how quiet you are, or he could be lying awake that night, or he could be squatting over the bedpan when you so subtly sneak in. There's LOTS of ways luck can keep you alive, and there's LOTS of ways divine favor can make you wake up.

You spend a big chunk of luck/divine favor/plot armor/whatever, and live, that's what HP are FOR! And a rogue getting an automatic critical hit on surprise is a big chunk of HP. System working as expected.

And if you think HP are meat, and high level fighters are just so supernaturally tough that greataxes bounce off their face, then why SHOULDN'T he also ignore the stab to the throat?

Basically, no matter what HP are, they help against things like strikes when you are helpless. That's what they do. The game tells you how much of an advantage a helpless foe is, and it's a pretty big edge. Your rogue will probably one shot a level appropriate target, or have him wake up so low on HP that the outcome isn't in doubt baring magic, which is how this should work. The rules are fine for this, and it isn't an automatic instant kill in real life or in the rules.

[GooeyChewie]

I would have the player make an Attack roll, using the incapacitated rules. You get advantage and auto-crit if you hit. The target isn’t moving and you are avoiding armor, so I’ll use the default 10 or natural armor number. At that point you’d have to roll pretty poorly to not hit (even a poorly-statted level 1 Rogue should have over a 90% chance to hit). And if that guard isn’t an important NPC, there’s a good chance he doesn’t have enough hit points to survive a sneak-attack crit, even if you roll all 1’s.

So while I wouldn’t make it an auto-kill, I’ll be giving you every advantage in making it a one-shot kill.

[Malifice]

It is an autokill. For chumps like us (Commoner: 5 HP).

Kirk doesnt get killed in his sleep. I mean, plenty of people have tried, but he always seems to wake up at just the right moment (losing HP).

Only time I would rule 'autokill' is when the NPC isnt relevant to the story, and I cant be bothered doing it properly.

I would certainly never do it for important NPCs and PCs. In those cases, the rules apply.

[the_brazenburn]

It is an autokill. For chumps like us (Commoner: 5 HP).

Kirk doesnt get killed in his sleep. I mean, plenty of people have tried, but he always seems to wake up at just the right moment (losing HP).

Only time I would rule 'autokill' is when the NPC isnt relevant to the story, and I cant be bothered doing it properly.

I would certainly never do it for important NPCs and PCs. In those cases, the rules apply.

5 hit points? A commoner has a 1d8 hit die and no Constitution modifier. Remember, you're always supposed to round down, so that's 1d8=4 +0 = 4 hit points.

Unless you're bragging about your high Con score? :smallwink:

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Am I right to assume that killing someone in there sleep is frowned upon by most people of lawful alignment or good: LG NG LN LE. It just seems rude.

[Tanarii]

Am I right to assume that killing someone in there sleep is frowned upon by most people of lawful alignment or good: LG NG LN LE. It just seems rude.
LE would probably depend on the individuals code of tradition, loyalty, or order that they follow.

I mean, a LE order of Hashishim probably wouldn't object to it.

[GooeyChewie]

Am I right to assume that killing someone in there sleep is frowned upon by most people of lawful alignment or good: LG NG LN LE. It just seems rude.

Without any context, I would say killing someone in their sleep is a Chaotic Evil act. But context can change everything. Who are you killing? Why are you killing them? On whose authority are you doing the killing? If you have been given license to kill by your a sovereign ruler on mission to eliminate a dangerous necromancer with orders to approach as stealthily as possible, it might even be a lawful good act... maybe.

The point is, alignment isn’t a straight-jacket, even when it comes down to individual actions.

[Tanarii]

Without any context, I would say killing someone in their sleep is a Chaotic Evil act.
Acts don't carry 5e alignment. 5e alignment is about typical, but it required, behavior.

The typical behavior for CE is arbritary violence spurred by greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Killing in sleep or out of sleep is irrelevant to that. Context is relevant, but not to any one given act of killing or violence. Only to the overall typical (but not required) behavior.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Without any context, I would say killing someone in their sleep is a Chaotic Evil act. But context can change everything. Who are you killing? Why are you killing them? On whose authority are you doing the killing? If you have been given license to kill by your a sovereign ruler on mission to eliminate a dangerous necromancer with orders to approach as stealthily as possible, it might even be a lawful good act... maybe.

The point is, alignment isn’t a straight-jacket, even when it comes down to individual actions.

Well I'd argue that killing someone in there sleep is a dishonorable act and that a LG character would want to kill them in a more honorable way.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Is it more evil to run over a sleeping person with a trolley?

[GooeyChewie]

Tanarii - Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that if I knew nothing about a character other than the fact that the character has killed somebody in their sleep, I would probably think the character commits arbitrary acts of violence spurred by greed, hatred or bloodlust. But I would also recognize that without knowing the circumstances, I don’t really have enough information to know for sure.

Ivor - I would agree that a LG character would typically want to find a more honorable way of dispatching the foe. But Lawful Good doesn’t mean Lawful Stupid (or even Lawful Honorable, really), and sometimes the best way to do good is to dispatch the foe in the most efficient and effective means available.

Coffee - Depends. Do you plan to do so while twirling a mustache?

[Waazraath]

A sleeping target is unconcious. All attack rolls are made with advantage and all hits are critical hits. For a rogue that means that an average guard won't survive.

But see with your DM first, he's gonna be the ultimte judge.

This. Personally, I'd follow the rules on this one, if only because it's not unreasonable/inconceivable that if a party member is ever attacked in his/her sleep, the same rules will apply.

[Tanarii]

Is it more evil to run over a sleeping person with a trolley?Needs to be a choice between a sleeping person and five people who are playing cards, doesn't it? :smallbiggrin:

[Naanomi]

I can see situations where killing someone in their sleep could occur under any classical alignment (though LG and NG may be pretty narrow in application... mercy killings?)

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Is it more evil to run over a sleeping person with a trolley?

No not really. Id say its nicer.

[Malifice]

Without any context, I would say killing someone in their sleep is a Chaotic Evil act. But context can change everything. Who are you killing? Why are you killing them? On whose authority are you doing the killing? If you have been given license to kill by your a sovereign ruler on mission to eliminate a dangerous necromancer with orders to approach as stealthily as possible, it might even be a lawful good act... maybe.

The point is, alignment isn’t a straight-jacket, even when it comes down to individual actions.

Exactly.

My LG Paladin just slaughtered a whole bunch of children with a hatchet as they slept. A whole orphanage full (plus the Nuns that were guarding them). Tortured a fair few too. I had to torture her so I could find the last baby, so I could smash its head in. She foolishly didnt want to tell me where it was to protect it.

A Devil had appeared and told me to do it (he said if I didnt the world would end) so I didnt really have any choice.

It was for the greater good, so a perfectly good act.

[beargryllz]

95% of the time I would rule it as an auto crit +/- death by massive damage.

Another way to rule it is via skill check. If you sneak up to a sleepy guy and say you slit his throat, then it's done. Nobody lives through that unless they're very badass or very lucky

[Malifice]

95% of the time I would rule it as an auto crit +/- death by massive damage.

Another way to rule it is via skill check. If you sneak up to a sleepy guy and say you slit his throat, then it's done. Nobody lives through that unless they're very badass or very lucky

Hit points are badass points.

[Naanomi]

Hit points are badass points.
In Chainmail, every troop was killed in one hit. When they added tougher units to the game, they took more than one Hit to kill... hence ‘hit points’... they were at least once literally how many times more you could survive lethal situations than the average soldier

[Jormengand]

Actually, people HAVE survived that, specifically, in the case remember, a small child had both arteries cut and the head fell forward and closed the arteries with a good enough seal that a child was found alive hours after the throat was cut as part of a murder/suicide, and the child lived.
That's what a natural 20 on a fortitude save looks like.


And the ones who don't survive it have up to 30 seconds or so to express their displeasure with their impending death, which is five rounds in D&D time. Most normal people go into shock and don't do anything with that 30 seconds, which is basically saying they start making death saves having lost all their HP and then die.

But it's likely to be loud, messy, and may well involve a rather vigorous counterattack.

Okay, but if I stab a veteran soldier (second level warrior, if 5e still has warriors) in the throat with a knife, it's not going to just flat out not have a chance to kill them because even on a crit it can only do 2d4-2 damage and the warrior has 9 hit points.


If "throat cut while asleep" was automatic instant death we'd do executions by cutting the throat, we don't do executions that way in the real world, because it's actually a very messy and not all that quick way to die. In a world with magical healing it's especially uncertain.

It is, however, a way we use to kill animals.


The game has rules for unconscious, apply them, autocrit on a hit with advantage vs someone not wearing armor is probably enough.

But it simply isn't enough to give you a proper chance to kill someone unless they're weak enough that you could probably just have killed them in standard combat anyway. For sure, it gives first-level characters a good chance of killing other first-level characters in their sleep, but less so for tenth-level characters killing other tenth-level characters.

(Of course, tenth-level characters being able to take three greatsword attacks to the face and shrug their shoulders was already weird enough, but being able to have your throat cut several times and be manifestly okay is even weirder.)


In Chainmail, every troop was killed in one hit. When they added tougher units to the game, they took more than one Hit to kill... hence ‘hit points’... they were at least once literally how many times more you could survive lethal situations than the average soldier

As a slight aside, a fair few wargames still have that, Warhammer and its derivatives being the most obvious. This does absolutely mean that a chaos lord can take a cannon to the face and be fine (though a standard soldier has a 1/6 chance to be fine anyway due to the idiosyncracies of rolls to wound).

[Malifice]

Okay, but if I stab a veteran soldier (second level warrior, if 5e still has warriors) in the throat with a knife, it's not going to just flat out not have a chance to kill them because even on a crit it can only do 2d4-2 damage and the warrior has 9 hit points.

Hit points are (among other things) luck. By RAW.

A 20th level Fighter (Achillies) is central to the story. He has a ton of luck. Mary Sue plot armor levels of luck. He has 200 points of luck.

When some dude sneaks into his room to shiv him as he sleeps, his plot armor (luck) saves him.

His luck (hit) points are reduced by (damage taken) and he wakes up at the last minute, saved by (insert heroic/ lucky occurence here)

Unless that dude sneaking in is also central to the story (like say... a 20th level Assassin).

[Tanarii]

If you as a DM, or your DM, says "you cut his throat" then skip straight to the creature dying rapidly and messily.

If you as a DM, or your DM, have damage be rolled, and the damage is less than the enemies remaining hit points, then the veteran wasn't stabbed in the throat.

Easy peasy.

The DM just needs to decide how to adjudicate whether or not the attempt to stab / cut the throat works. Either by potential attack rolls, and HP damage. Or automatic kill success.

[the_brazenburn]

If you as a DM, or your DM, says "you cut his throat" then skip straight to the creature dying rapidly and messily.

If you as a DM, or your DM, have damage be rolled, and the damage is less than the enemies remaining hit points, then the veteran wasn't stabbed in the throat.

Easy peasy.

The DM just needs to decide how to adjudicate whether or not the attempt to stab / cut the throat works. Either by potential attack rolls, and HP damage. Or automatic kill success.

As a DM, I would rule that it is an automatic kill if the player's maximum damage (excluding crits) is equal to or higher than the enemy's hit points. This will probably be controversial; let's hear other people's ideas.

[mephnick]

As a DM, I would rule that it is an automatic kill if the player's maximum damage (excluding crits) is equal to or higher than the enemy's hit points. This will probably be controversial; let's hear other people's ideas.

That's a hell of a lot better than some 2nd level rogue sneaking into a 20th level knight commander's room and killing him automatically.

[Naanomi]

It definetly makes a good watch rotation important for PCs if a random Goblin in a lucky stealth roll can sneak into camp and instantly kill their characters no matter how tough they are

[StoicLeaf]

That's a hell of a lot better than some 2nd level rogue sneaking into a 20th level knight commander's room and killing him automatically.

if the level 2 party/rogue managed to get past that level 20's guards and other defensive measures then they deserve it.

[Naanomi]

if the level 2 party/rogue managed to get past that level 20's guards and other defensive measures then they deserve it.
Just like if the 1CR Goblin managed to slip past your level 20 party’s watch and slit some throats deserves it yes?