Why does the Blowgun suck so much?

[Aett_Thorn]

Is there an actual reason for why there's like no way to make this thing good?

I was looking over the Kensei last night, and was thinking that it might be able to make the blowgun do some respectable damage by making it a monk weapon and letting the damage increase with level. But then I was looking at the blowgun, and realized that it has the loading property. Okay, no problem, I'll take the Crossbow Expert Feat! No dice. Crossbow Expert only removes the loading property from crossbows, not from any weapon with the loading property. Basically, the feat excludes only the blowgun (since it's the only loading weapon that is not a crossbow. This means that even though a Kensei can use a blowgun and get better damage on it, it can still only be fired once per round.

I mean, it would be one thing if only blowgun darts could be poisoned, but you can also poison other ammo. So what is even the point of the blowgun?

[Mikal]

Stealth (silent, not very easy to spot someone using it vs. a sling or bow and arrow, easy to ditch or hide it), its use by primitive societies that haven't invented bows and arrows yet, and so on.

[Camman1984]

I think it's just a nice characterful and easy to conceal way of delivery poison/sneak attack damage. gives something else other than shrunken or throwing darts for that style of killing. in reality blowguns are terrible weapon unless they have some other trick behind them

[tkuremento]

The same reason that the Glaive and Halberd at literally statistically/mechanically the same on the table, they didn't think it through fully? Either that or they hate us.

[Pelle]

Why should it not suck? Seems like one of the worst weapons to go into armed combat with, from a RL perspective.

I guess its main selling point is discretion, and since you can use posion with it, it's better than nothing.

[Corsair14]

Blow guns are supposed to suck for damage. Their entire purpose is a poison delivery system. Just like a throwing star, its goal isn't to damage, its goal is to inconvenience and slow down a target. The odds of doing a lethal throwing star hit are slim to none. The odds of a blowgun lethal hit are pretty much zero unless you get a deep enough shot in an exposed artery and they pull the dart out like an idiot.

[GlenSmash!]

Sucky weapons (and armor) exists so DMs can arm enemies with them. Like having a culture that is less technologically advanced than others.

Potentially PCs would also use them if they lost their weapons and spellbooks and such like in OoTA.

That being said, If you wanted to use a blowgun effectively you could do what real people did and use poison.

[Willie the Duck]

The same reason that the Glaive and Halberd at literally statistically/mechanically the same on the table, they didn't think it through fully?

If someone has any real evidence that they didn't think these things through, I'd love to see it. It seems a lot more likely that the designers simply had a priority set that differs from ours.

As to the blowgun--when you are trying to deliver a knockout poison, and thus the goal is not to do a large amount of damage (so exactly when you would use a blowgun in real life), the blowgun is the optimal weapon. In pretty much all other cases, you might as well poison a regular weapon.

[Elminster298]

Is there an actual reason for why there's like no way to make this thing good?

I was looking over the Kensei last night, and was thinking that it might be able to make the blowgun do some respectable damage by making it a monk weapon and letting the damage increase with level. But then I was looking at the blowgun, and realized that it has the loading property. Okay, no problem, I'll take the Crossbow Expert Feat! No dice. Crossbow Expert only removes the loading property from crossbows, not from any weapon with the loading property. Basically, the feat excludes only the blowgun (since it's the only loading weapon that is not a crossbow. This means that even though a Kensei can use a blowgun and get better damage on it, it can still only be fired once per round.

I mean, it would be one thing if only blowgun darts could be poisoned, but you can also poison other ammo. So what is even the point of the blowgun?

A quarter staff hollowed out and preloaded with a poisoned dart would make an excellent addition to a monk's attack arsenal even if it is only one attack per round. It would be especially effective with drow sleep poison on a low con target. Plus, I personally think it would be a lot of fun.

[Elminster298]

Also, technically, it blows. Sucking would be dangerous.

[Aett_Thorn]

Also, technically, it blows. Sucking would be dangerous.

I can't believe it took this long to get that comment. ;)

I get that not every weapon needs to be optimized, I just don't get why it seems like the Devs went out of their way to make sure that this weapon stays bad no matter what. I mean, Crossbow expert could say that it gets rid of the loading property of weapons. But it limits it to crossbows, which leaves only blowguns as loading. That SEEMS to be the Devs actually thinking it through and being okay with leaving blowguns really weak, even in the hands of someone that wanted to try to make them work.

But they can still get Sneak Attack dice to work for them if the character picks up martial weapons somehow, and you could one-hit-kill someone with a blowgun dart. So the whole "it makes sense that it's weak" argument can already be thrown out a bit there.

Since monsters already have their own weapon stats, the idea of having the blowgun as is on the weapon table makes little sense to me.

[Unoriginal]

Because, surprisingly enough, shooting a needle with the power of your lungs is not a very efficient way to kill people.

Now, like other said, if you have poison and a task that needs ultra-stealth, it's significantly better.

[The_Jette]

I can't believe it took this long to get that comment. ;)

I get that not every weapon needs to be optimized, I just don't get why it seems like the Devs went out of their way to make sure that this weapon stays bad no matter what. I mean, Crossbow expert could say that it gets rid of the loading property of weapons. But it limits it to crossbows, which leaves only blowguns as loading. That SEEMS to be the Devs actually thinking it through and being okay with leaving blowguns really weak, even in the hands of someone that wanted to try to make them work.

But they can still get Sneak Attack dice to work for them if the character picks up martial weapons somehow, and you could one-hit-kill someone with a blowgun dart. So the whole "it makes sense that it's weak" argument can already be thrown out a bit there.

Since monsters already have their own weapon stats, the idea of having the blowgun as is on the weapon table makes little sense to me.

Honestly, I'm picturing an enemy with a blowgun firing off two shots every round for more than a couple of rounds, and it's hilarious. That guy would hyperventilate pretty fast...

[Telok]

The blowgun looks bad because the system mechanics do not give it the advantages that you expect. In fiction and narrative it is an easily concealed, stealthy tool used to deliver lethal or incapacitating toxins. The game mechanics make it no more concealable than a hand crossbow or darts and the combat model strongly devalues poisons.

But you're in luck, the trendy "fluff is not crunch" concept says that you can declare that your hand crossbow is a blowgun and that your sneak attack damage is poison. This brings the system mechanics into line with the narrative and fiction that you expect.

[Willie the Duck]

I get that not every weapon needs to be optimized, I just don't get why it seems like the Devs went out of their way to make sure that this weapon stays bad no matter what.

It's not bad, it just has a very very limited application (again, like real life blowguns).


I mean, Crossbow expert could say that it gets rid of the loading property of weapons. But it limits it to crossbows, which leaves only blowguns as loading. That SEEMS to be the Devs actually thinking it through and being okay with leaving blowguns really weak, even in the hands of someone that wanted to try to make them work.

I believe that is more an exception made for crossbows than for blowguns (probably because they wanted xbows to be a simple weapon, but know that some people really want martial crossbow wielders for thematic reasons), although we'd need a third example to be sure. This alone doesn't make the weapon 'bad no matter what'--loading is only a problem for characters once they get multiple attacks (and the fact that the crossbow wielder can take a feat to negate this issue only matters if they take the feat)

If I wanted to do any kind of second guessing on the devs, and/or attribute to them any mistakes, it would be that I think they thought that people would care more about wizards and clerics using ranged weapons, or fighters using crossbows up until level 5-6, or featless campaigns, or all those kind of things which never come up on these boards.


But they can still get Sneak Attack dice to work for them if the character picks up martial weapons somehow, and you could one-hit-kill someone with a blowgun dart. So the whole "it makes sense that it's weak" argument can already be thrown out a bit there.

I don't follow the reasoning of this. Because sneak attack can be applied to it, it doesn't make sense that it is weak? I don't see how you think that negates/throws out that argument at all. If in one of the expansions they create a character who can throw playing cards as dex-based 1pt. improvised weapons, will they not be weak because a high-level rogue can readily kill someone with one?

Added Addendum: mind you, in my campaign, if someone wanted to make a blowgun master, I'd let xbow expert work with the weapon. I just don't think that sub-optimal/extremely-limited-utility weapon (that pretty reasonably emulates its' real life capacities) is evidence that the developers don't know what they are doing, etc. Especially when a much less hubristic explanation is that they simply had different goals.

[Elminster298]

I can't believe it took this long to get that comment. ;)

This was originally the reason I came to this thread...


Because, surprisingly enough, shooting a needle with the power of your lungs is not a very efficient way to kill people.

Now, like other said, if you have poison and a task that needs ultra-stealth, it's significantly better.

Agreed. Anyone who manages to gain more damage, whether through sneak attack or monk damage, would basically be fluffed as hitting a major nerve or artery through knowledge of anatomy. I would also say on a roll of Nat 1 the target feels particularly refreshed due to well done acupuncture. No hit point gain but you dulled the pain of the muscle the dragon pulled while fighting the last set of adventurers.

[Unoriginal]

I get that not every weapon needs to be optimized, I just don't get why it seems like the Devs went out of their way to make sure that this weapon stays bad no matter what. I mean, Crossbow expert could say that it gets rid of the loading property of weapons. But it limits it to crossbows, which leaves only blowguns as loading. That SEEMS to be the Devs actually thinking it through and being okay with leaving blowguns really weak, even in the hands of someone that wanted to try to make them work.

Not every weapon needs options to make it good.



But they can still get Sneak Attack dice to work for them if the character picks up martial weapons somehow, and you could one-hit-kill someone with a blowgun dart. So the whole "it makes sense that it's weak" argument can already be thrown out a bit there.

No, not really.

A Fighter blowing a dart on a guy in plate armor who can clearly see him is pretty different from a Rogue blowing a dart into the open mouth of a guy in plate armor who's too busy sword-fighting the Rogue's buddy to notice him.

Same reason why a dagger is generally weak, but can still be used with Sneak Attack.



Since monsters already have their own weapon stats, the idea of having the blowgun as is on the weapon table makes little sense to me.

Plenty of monster weapons are on the weapon table, you know.

[Max_Killjoy]

Blowguns are bad because IRL blowguns were mediocre weapons. They're primitive hunting tools designed to shoot a poison dart on lung power.

Is anyone really expecting a blowdart to penetrate armor?

[Tanarii]

But you're in luck, the trendy "fluff is not crunch" concept says that you can declare that your hand crossbow is a blowgun and that your sneak attack damage is poison. This brings the system mechanics into line with the narrative and fiction that you expect.
No it can't. Because a Hand Crossbow is already a separately defined mechanical object with its own rules interactions, and because Sneak Attack doesn't do poison damage, which is also a mechanical object with its own rules interactions.

[SkylarkR6]

A quarter staff hollowed out and preloaded with a poisoned dart would make an excellent addition to a monk's attack arsenal even if it is only one attack per round. It would be especially effective with drow sleep poison on a low con target. Plus, I personally think it would be a lot of fun.

Seems like there may have been a certain priest that did this with his walking stick to some effect in the novels.

[Talamare]

The blowgun looks bad because the system mechanics do not give it the advantages that you expect. In fiction and narrative it is an easily concealed, stealthy tool used to deliver lethal or incapacitating toxins. The game mechanics make it no more concealable than a hand crossbow or darts and the combat model strongly devalues poisons.

But you're in luck, the trendy "fluff is not crunch" concept says that you can declare that your hand crossbow is a blowgun and that your sneak attack damage is poison. This brings the system mechanics into line with the narrative and fiction that you expect.

This is the correct answer, and accurately answers all questions.

[Elminster298]

Seems like there may have been a certain priest that did this with his walking stick to some effect in the novels.

Cadderly Bonadeuce. Next thing you know people will be asking for collapsible explosive darts for a hand crossbow. Those unoriginal buffoons!

[SkylarkR6]

And adamantine battle yo-yos!!

[SkipSandwich]

I would change the blowgun to deal a base 1d4 Poison damage, and add thw following feat.

Blowgun Master
When firing a blowgun dart that has any sort of contact or injury Poison applied, on a successful hit the DC of the Con save to resist the poison's effects becomes equal to 8+your proficiency bonus+your Int modifier, if it is not already higher. When applying poison to your ammunition, a single dose can coat up to 10 blowgun darts (instead of only 3).

[iTreeby]

Wait does the kensai still increase the damage of weapons up to martial arts die? You could work around the loading property by also punching people to get that sweet bonus ac and or melee kensai weapon.

[tkuremento]

If someone has any real evidence that they didn't think these things through, I'd love to see it. It seems a lot more likely that the designers simply had a priority set that differs from ours.

As to the blowgun--when you are trying to deliver a knockout poison, and thus the goal is not to do a large amount of damage (so exactly when you would use a blowgun in real life), the blowgun is the optimal weapon. In pretty much all other cases, you might as well poison a regular weapon.

I was mostly saying everything I did tongue in cheek, because I am still mostly miffed about the whole Glaive and Halberd thing. And as another point in this thread someone mentioned that 5e is all about fluffing weapons as other weapons, my personal fave being longsword as katana, then there should be absolutely NO excuses for two weapons with identical stats on the table.

[Jama7301]

All I know is that this thread has inspired me to do a an encounter against a tribe in the forest with Blowguns and a 'home field advantage'.

A Tucker's Tribesmen encounter as it were.

[Unoriginal]

All I know is that this thread has inspired me to do a an encounter against a tribe in the forest with Blowguns and a 'home field advantage'.

A Tucker's Tribesmen encounter as it were.

You should look at the Grungs. Especially in ToA.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Here's a wild idea--

what if using a blowgun while hidden didn't give away your position? Would that make up for some of the deficiencies and not be abuse-able? If it's too much, maybe they only know the general direction you shot from, not the exact location?

[Talamare]

Easiest Fix would be...

1 Piercing +1d4 Poison damage

[tkuremento]

Here's a wild idea--

what if using a blowgun while hidden didn't give away your position? Would that make up for some of the deficiencies and not be abuse-able? If it's too much, maybe they only know the general direction you shot from, not the exact location?

Would allow for Rogues to take advantage from it, literally. You get advantage from being hidden, right? So they'd use it for Sneak Attack without having to take the Skulker feat, and that feat only allows for remaining hidden if you miss. And they don't get Extra Attack so the loading property doesn't bother them.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Would allow for Rogues to take advantage from it, literally. You get advantage from being hidden, right? So they'd use it for Sneak Attack without having to take the Skulker feat, and that feat only allows for remaining hidden if you miss. And they don't get Extra Attack so the loading property doesn't bother them.

But at the cost of a significant amount of damage and a short range. Is it worth it? Dunno.

[Telok]

No it can't. Because a Hand Crossbow is already a separately defined mechanical object with its own rules interactions, and because Sneak Attack doesn't do poison damage, which is also a mechanical object with its own rules interactions.

As much as I agree with you many people will think it's a decent answer. Most of the disconnect is really coming from the fact that D&D is now 3 or more editions away from emulating the fiction that it started with and keeps moving more towards a boardgame style concept. Poisoned blowdarts are part of the fiction, but they don't fit well with the trend towards balance, simplicity, and power/card based abilities with recharge timers.

[Tanarii]

As much as I agree with you many people will think it's a decent answer. Most of the disconnect is really coming from the fact that D&D is now 3 or more editions away from emulating the fiction that it started with and keeps moving more towards a boardgame style concept.That's ... so amazingly out of touch with what 5e has done its incredible.


Poisoned blowdarts are part of the fiction, but they don't fit well with the trend towards balance, simplicity, and power/card based abilities with recharge timers.Poisoned blowdarts are part of the mechanical rules as well. You can even sneak attack with them. They're just not terribly effective against things above 'normal', unless your character has high sneak attack.

Even so, 1+Dex+1d6+1d4 on a failed con save for a level 1 Rogue is going to average 9-10 damage. By level 3 it's 13.5-14.5, which is enoug to put down a Guard.

[Quoz]

I don't think I would want to build a character around it, but I think you could make a memorable NPC. That makes most of the balance issues negligible. I'm thinking something like a bard/assassin, playing a set of pan pipes that are really a multi-shot blowgun. Heck, make a whole band of it - a percussionist with a gong shield throwing razor-sharp cymbals, a harpist archer, a storm sorcerer that uses a trombone as the focus for thunder spells. Of course, the only magic lute (sorry, the pun is necessary) is the conductor's magic wand.

[Temperjoke]

You know, aside from being used to propel a dart, it could also be used as a breathing tube or simple club if it was made from a solid enough material. Historically they could also shoot pellets as well as darts. Judging from the size, I don't think it would be too difficult to disguise one as a walking cane for concealment purposes. I wouldn't use one for regular combat, but it's got niche uses. Like most things in D&D, it all depends on the campaign you're in.

[MxKit]

It's unfortunate that Rogues aren't proficient in blowguns, honestly, since the only benefit the weapon itself gets is using it as a poison delivery system.

The only classes who can do even halfway okay with blowguns that actually get access to them are:


War Clerics, who wouldn't do too bad by the time they reach 8th level (and better by 14th, because if you're using the divine favor spell that's an average of 13 + your Dex mod damage by that point) but who would obviously benefit far more from using other weapons;
Kensei Monks, who are probably the best at using blowguns, with 4 + Dex mod damage at level 3, 8 + Dex mod damage at level 6 (and all but ~2 of that counts as magic damage), up to 13 + Dex mod damage at level 11, and up to 15 + Dex mod damage by level 17... though of course, again, Kensei Monks will do better using even darts or slings for their ranged option;
Hunter Rangers, who if they take Colossus Slayer at 3rd level can do an average of 7 + Dex mod damage with it, which goes up to that damage to multiple enemies (any enemies within 10 feet of a certain point, if you take Volley), which goes up to 7 + Dex mod + Wis mod against any number of your favored enemies within that 10 foot radius once you hit level 20, which is okay;
Hexblade Warlocks, who are just good at every weapon really. If you really went for it, you'd be able to do 3 + your proficiency bonus + your Cha mod + your Cha again in psychic damage if you use Maddening Hex, +3 more if you're using hex. By level 20 and with maxed Charisma, you'd be doing 22 damage with a blowgun like that. Or just 19 damage out of the middle of a darkness spell.

And of course you're best if you multiclass. I'd definitely consider dipping a level or two (or three!) of Fighter before going Rogue, just to get access to blowguns and maybe a bit of extra damage using them. Then by level 20 you'd be doing 30 + your Dex mod damage, or 34 + your Dex mod if you have and use a superiority die. Double that if you're an Assassin and have surprise, or just an extra 9 damage across the board if you're an Inquisitive.

If you went Assassin 15/Hexblade 5 instead and concentrated on maxing your Charisma, by level 20 you'd be doing an average of 41 damage pretty consistently if you use hex (it would drop down to 35 once your Hexblade's Cursed enemy is dead, though—and it drops significantly without hex, like "down to just 27 damage" significantly), and double that on the rare times you have the element of surprise. If you went Hexblade 14/Assassin 6, you'd be doing 32 damage pretty consistently even without hex, and 35 with it, and 64-70 damage when you can pull off that assassination.

And that's all assuming that the blowgun needles have poison put on them every time and the enemy fails their Constituion save, or subtract 2 from all those damage scores. And it's also ignoring the fact that with almost all of these options, you're going to be doing even more damage if you just go with a crossbow of some sort, or a melee weapon if Hexblade, or a damn' sling and stone if Kensei. You can do okay with a gimmicky build if you use certain classes/class combinations, but the gimmick will just always hamper you, unfortunately.

ETA:


You know, aside from being used to propel a dart, it could also be used as a breathing tube or simple club if it was made from a solid enough material. Historically they could also shoot pellets as well as darts. Judging from the size, I don't think it would be too difficult to disguise one as a walking cane for concealment purposes. I wouldn't use one for regular combat, but it's got niche uses. Like most things in D&D, it all depends on the campaign you're in.

Also this!! If you're in a politics-heavy campaign where you really aren't supposed to always be carrying around weapons, but might really need one, it might be really cool to go Inquisitive or even Mastermind Rogue, with just a one or two level dip into Fighter (or 3 level dip into Hexblade) to get access, so you can have a "walking cane" blowgun that could be used to bludgeon in case of an emergency or potentially even deliver actually poisonous poisons (ones that deliver the poisoned condition!), or some sort of poison that gives the incapacitated, paralyzed, or unconscious (asleep!) condition. From the shadows or from actual darkness. You could even keep a dose of some sort of poison in a necklace or something. And, of course, at later levels you could still get a decent Sneak Attack off with it even in a place where you might get... pointedly questioned if you have a rapier, or even searched to see if you have daggers.