So how much HP should a melee character have?

[samcifer]

With 19 AC and the Shield spell (more than once per day), how much HP should a melee character have on average? (Current character level is 5, btw)?

[Aett_Thorn]

With 19 AC and the Shield spell (more than once per day), how much HP should a melee character have on average? (Current character level is 5, btw)?

Will depend on Con and class. Assuming a Con of 14 (so +2):

Fighter/Ranger/Paladin: 12 + 4(7.5) = 42

Barbarian: 14 + 4(8.5) = 48

Not sure what AC has to do with this.

[samcifer]

Will depend on Con and class. Assuming a Con of 14 (so +2):

Fighter/Ranger/Paladin: 12 + 4(7.5) = 42

Barbarian: 14 + 4(8.5) = 48

Not sure what AC has to do with this.

What if the Con was 12 for a +1. I currently have 32 HP at lv. 5

[samcifer]

Will depend on Con and class. Assuming a Con of 14 (so +2):

Fighter/Ranger/Paladin: 12 + 4(7.5) = 42

Barbarian: 14 + 4(8.5) = 48

Not sure what AC has to do with this.

Wasn't sure if AC was a factor or not in terms of survivability in melee combat.

[Aett_Thorn]

What if the Con was 12 for a +1. I currently have 32 HP at lv. 5

If Con is 12 for only a +1, then you lose 5 HP total for both scenarios. 37 for Fighter/Ranger/Paladin, 43 for Barbarian.

AC definitely helps with overall durability, but has no impact on how many HP you have.

[mephnick]

Wasn't sure if AC was a factor or not in terms of survivability in melee combat.

It is..and it isn't. You'll take less hits from weaker enemies, but honestly the way the game works you'll probably still get hit more than half the time from level appropriate enemies even with a good AC. Shield will help.

Like, a giant is still going to hit you with a 20AC most of the time. But a bunch of CR 1 mobs will have a tough time breaking through.

The best defense is a good HP pool with a decent AC, but it depends on if your DM favours a bunch of weaker enemies or fewer stronger enemies for his encounters.

[samcifer]

If Con is 12 for only a +1, then you lose 5 HP total for both scenarios. 37 for Fighter/Ranger/Paladin, 43 for Barbarian.

AC definitely helps with overall durability, but has no impact on how many HP you have.

Understood, but was curious if having a high AC (24 AC with Shield spell) meant you could get away with having less hp or not and not lose too much survivability.

I have Armor of Agythys as well, so that could help compensate some, right?

[MaxWilson]

Understood, but was curious if having a high AC (24 AC with Shield spell) meant you could get away with having less hp or not and not lose too much survivability.

I have Armor of Agythys as well, so that could help compensate some, right?

Yes, absolutely. If you have e.g. Con 10 and 30 HP instead of 44 HP at 5th level, but you have the Shield spell and Armor of Agathys and an understanding of when to use each, and/or a kiting strategy (Mobile feat, whatever), you have at least as many strategic options and as much survivability at someone with Con 14 and 44 HP but no spells and no mobility.

[Dudewithknives]

As long as you have your level X 7 HP you are fine.
If you have really good AC and saves you can get by with level x 6.
If you have garbage ac and not very good saves level x8 or better.

[samcifer]

I've been considering taking the Tough feat as well

[GlenSmash!]

I personally like having a big bucket of HP. I'll consider maxing Con even before maxing my main stat and grabbing Tough. But I usually play Barbarians.

[Tanarii]

I've been considering taking the Tough feat as well
One thing to consider for Tough vs using an ASI for Con: Tough adds more you max hit points, but not to your HPs gained from using HD.

When thinking about HPs, it's often worth thinking about them as HP + 1/2 your HD, assuming you're going to doing back to back adventuring days. Or HP + HD if you're not.

So Tough vs Con has the same HPs across an adventuring day if using all HD. Tough gives a high max HPs, usually relevant for magical healing between battles. But Con gives +1 to Con checks and Con saves.

[samcifer]

One thing to consider for Tough vs using an ASI for Con: Tough adds more you max hit points, but not to your HPs gained from using HD.

When thinking about HPs, it's often worth thinking about them as HP + 1/2 your HD, assuming you're going to doing back to back adventuring days. Or HP + HD if you're not.

So Tough vs Con has the same HPs across an adventuring day if using all HD. Tough gives a high max HPs, usually relevant for magical healing between battles. But Con gives +1 to Con checks and Con saves.

Well my CON is 12 and I had to use my 16 for my attack stat and the 14 for DEX for armor, of the starting stats we get to use of 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, and 10 per the dm's ruling for starting stats. I had to go that route to have decent AC and accuracy for attacking.

[MaxWilson]

One thing to consider for Tough vs using an ASI for Con: Tough adds more you max hit points, but not to your HPs gained from using HD.

When thinking about HPs, it's often worth thinking about them as HP + 1/2 your HD, assuming you're going to doing back to back adventuring days. Or HP + HD if you're not.

In a world where Xanathar's Guide To Everything exists and Healing Spirit works as written, optimizing tiny bonuses to HD is irrelevant.

[samcifer]

So if I go for +2 CON as an ASI and use Armor of Agythys, I can close the gap more effectively with a better benefit? (I also have proficiency with CON saves, so that's already a +3 which would become a +4)?

[Pex]

I'm a firm believer in the Constitution tax. Every character of any class should have at least a 14 in Constitution. I cringe when I see players take a 12 or less. It makes a difference. The warlock in one of my games only as a 12 CO. His relatively low hit points means he drops often. He is a glass cannon. He just made 8th level. I hope he increases his CO, but it's his character.

[samcifer]

I'm a firm believer in the Constitution tax. Every character of any class should have at least a 14 in Constitution. I cringe when I see players take a 12 or less. It makes a difference. The warlock in one of my games only as a 12 CO. His relatively low hit points means he drops often. He is a glass cannon. He just made 8th level. I hope he increases his CO, but it's his character.

Well my character is lv. 5 (3 Divine Soul / 2 Hexblade) and has 32 HP. Next level (DS 4), I'll get my first ASI/Feat and my stats are STR: 12, DEX: 15 (+1 from Dispater Tiefling), CN: 12, INT: 10, WIS: 10, CHA: 18 (16 + 2 from Dispater Tiefling). If I were to stick with DS for another 4 levels beyond that, I can get another ASI/Feat at character lv. 10, so I'm not sure how to go on keeping up my accuracy as well as increasing my HP. nce I get my second ASI/Feat, I was thinking my final level (3rd) of Hexblade, go Pact of the Blade and take the Improved PAct Weapon Eldritch Evocation so I can use my +2 longsword as a spellcasting focus, the go up the remaining levels as a D Soul.

[Throne12]

If your so worry about hp just pick up the aid spells. Up is important but you are far better off with things that reduce damage you take.

[SirGraystone]

An hill giant (CR 5) have a +8 to hit so need 16+ to hit you, so will only hit you 25% of the time. Get +2 con at next level will get you an extra 6 hp, tough feat 12 hp, Armor of Agathys give 5 temp hp so does Aid but Aid also raise your hp max which mean you can heal those extra hp, something you can't do with Armor of Agathys temp hp.

Personally I think you are fine with the hp you have now, just use Aid for extra each morning. Lower hp is the price you pay for be able to cast spell. Use a feat or +2 ASI to kill NPC faster and let them less time to damage you.

Remember that if your group is so strong that combat is easy, the DM have always more powerful monsters to use anyway :-D

[holywhippet]

Keep in mind just because you are focused on attacking in melee doesn't mean your opponents will be only attacking you in the same manner. Expect to take damage from saving throw type spells. Even if you do focus mostly only face damage from physical attacks, critical hits do happen. What you do need to try to accomplish is to have emergency healing ready for when things go south.

[JellyPooga]

The question of how many HP a melee character should have is always answered by "as many as possible". That said, there are some qualifying aspects. Barbarians have higher HD and Resistance to damage, for example, meaning that their HP work harder for them than, say, a Fighters. Similarly for a Rogue with Uncanny Dodge and Evasion; he doesn't need to invest quite as heavily because what he does have works harder (but on the flipside has lower HD compared to a Fighter).

For the OPs character, Con is probably a greater concern than for a mundane martial, because concentration saves are a thing. I'd recommend boosting that rather than taking Tough; the additional HP per level that the Feat offers is little compensation for being able to maintain concentration or survive a nasty Save-or-Suck effect in a pinch.

[Coidzor]

8+ hp per level past 1st.

If you don't have at least a 14 Constitution and you're not equaling or exceeding the 6 hp per level that a Fighter, Ranger, or Paladin can take instead of rolling for HP each level, then you're lagging behind.

So a 5th level martial should have at least 52 hp while a Barbarian should have at least 58.

[Tanarii]

The question of how many HP a melee character should have is always answered by "as many as possible". That said, there are some qualifying aspects. Barbarians have higher HD and Resistance to damage, for example, meaning that their HP work harder for them than, say, a Fighters. Similarly for a Rogue with Uncanny Dodge and Evasion; he doesn't need to invest quite as heavily because what he does have works harder (but on the flipside has lower HD compared to a Fighter).Conversely, both the Barbarian and the Rogue's HPs have to work harder* for them, because they have lower AC. And of course, they're using a resource, either daily or action-economy.

*Interesting. I instinctively used HPs "working harder" to mean they aren't as effective. Whereas you used it to mean they're more effective.

[JellyPooga]

Conversely, both the Barbarian and the Rogue's HPs have to work harder* for them, because they have lower AC. And of course, they're using a resource, either daily or action-economy.

Barbarians and Rogues having lower AC is a trend, but not a necessity, but I would tend to agree that depsite their mitigating factors, they certainly can't afford to neglect their HP total if they're planning on sitting in melee for long. The resource aspect is also important; the Rogue is losing a lot of potential damage from not getting an OA off-turn and especially at lower levels, the Barbarian has to be careful when he uses those Rages/day.


*Interesting. I instinctively used HPs "working harder" to mean they aren't as effective. Whereas you used it to mean they're more effective.

:smallbiggrin: tomaytoes, tomahtoes. The way I see it, each HP is doing twice the work because the incoming damage is halved. 20hp for a Barbarian is like 40hp for a Fighter (all other things being equal).

[Tanarii]

Barbarians and Rogues having lower AC is a trend, but not a necessity, but I would tend to agree that depsite their mitigating factors, they certainly can't afford to neglect their HP total if they're planning on sitting in melee for long.It's a pretty solid trend though. IMX in Tier 2, sans magic armor
Barbs tend to AC 14-15 (Chain Shirt or Con 16, + Dex 1-2)
Rogues tend to AC 15-16 (Studded, + Dex 3-4)
Fighters tend to AC 18/20 (Full Plate during level 6, possible Shield)

The damage reduction between AC 15 and AC 18 depends on the enemies bonus to hit, but at +5 it's down to to 70%. AC 20 it's down to 55%. And it's always on, resource free, against all attacks.

IMO the Barbarian resistance does make them slightly tougher customers, while raging, despite lower AC. Possibly abysmally lower if the don't take at least some Dex, in which case they're just about par with a plate & shield fighter. But par is pretty damn good for a Dex 10 guy with just a shirt on! :smallamused:

[JellyPooga]

It's a pretty solid trend though. IMX in Tier 2, sans magic armor
Barbs tend to AC 14-15 (Chain Shirt or Con 16, + Dex 1-2)
Rogues tend to AC 15-16 (Studded, + Dex 3-4)
Fighters tend to AC 18/20 (Full Plate during level 6, possible Shield)

The damage reduction between AC 15 and AC 18 depends on the enemies bonus to hit, but at +5 it's down to to 70%. AC 20 it's down to 55%. And it's always on, resource free, against all attacks.

IMO the Barbarian resistance does make them slightly tougher customers, while raging, despite lower AC. Possibly abysmally lower if the don't take at least some Dex, in which case they're just about par with a plate & shield fighter. But par is pretty damn good for a Dex 10 guy with just a shirt on! :smallamused:

Hmm, maybe I've just seen more sword&board barbarians then. IMX Barbarians are solidly in the 16-18 AC range, though that does tend to be swung low by Reckless Attack offering advantage to hit them.

It does beg the question; how much AC is required to effectively equalise vs. Resistance? Rage reduces damage by 50% and Barbarians have, on average, +1hp/lvl over a Fighter, so a Fighter needs to be hit a heck of a lot less often to balance out that equation (ignoring Reckless).

[Tanarii]

Hmm, maybe I've just seen more sword&board barbarians then. IMX Barbarians are solidly in the 16-18 AC range, though that does tend to be swung low by Reckless Attack offering advantage to hit them.The reason you're seeing higher is I was thinking of Chain Shirt, which is the Tier 1 Barb norm. For Tier 2 it's usually Breastplate for sneakiness or Halfplate if not. So usually AC 16 (usually Breastplate + Dex 2 for sneaky barbs, often HP + Dex 1 for non-sneaky.)


It does beg the question; how much AC is required to effectively equalise vs. Resistance? Rage reduces damage by 50% and Barbarians have, on average, +1hp/lvl over a Fighter, so a Fighter needs to be hit a heck of a lot less often to balance out that equation (ignoring Reckless).
Actually, I forgot about reckless. You can't ignore that, because a barbarian will always use it, unless it's an abnormal situation. Outnumbered 4-1 or the like. Or unless the player doesn't understand they should always use it.

So say 75% hit rate for +5 advantage vs AC 16 Barb, but for 1/2 damage. Vs 40% vs a 2H Fighter in plate. 3/8*D vs 2/5*D, or 37.5 vs 40. Barb has more hit points, so they're better off regardless.

Fighter with Sheild and plate takes 3/10*D, or 30%. Over 4 rounds (a typical Medium fight) for each incoming 8 damage, difference would be 1 point less to the Fighter. So the incoming damage would need to be 8 per level per round for an AC 20 fighter to be as tough as a AC 16 Reckless & Raging Barbarian.

[JellyPooga]

Actually, I forgot about reckless. You can't ignore that, because a barbarian will always use it, unless it's an abnormal situation. Outnumbered 4-1 or the like. Or unless the player doesn't understand they should always use it.

I hesitate to disagree, but feel I should because Reckless is definitely a two-edged sword and until the Barbarian is rocking Brutal Critical at level 9, when the Advantage is desirable for crit-fishing, always using Reckless can be a death sentence to the unwary. The stereotypical Barbarian may be a beserker and always go all-in on the offence, but that's often a suicidal attitude. Perhaps I'd amend your statement to "Reckless should always be used tactically", not gratuitously.

edit: Don't forget that Advantage can be obtained through other means that don't inflict Disadvantage and that Advantage doesn't stack.

[Tanarii]

Okay, but let's look at some specifics. Because as I just showed, a Barb needs to take significantly higher damage every single round when they're taking 1/2 damage.

Typical damage for each enemy of appropriate Cr, which I always baseline as level-3, is about 1/2-2/5 the needed damage difference. So in the specific case of our Tier 2 AC 16 Raging & Reckless Barbarian trying to be no worse than an AC 20 Fighter, he might want to consider stopping with the Reckless when he's outnumbered 3-to-1.

[JellyPooga]

Okay, but let's look at some specifics. Because as I just showed, a Barb needs to take significantly higher damage every single round when they're taking 1/2 damage.

Typical damage for each enemy of appropriate Cr, which I always baseline as level-3, is about 1/2-2/5 the needed damage difference. So in the specific case of our Tier 2 AC 16 Raging & Reckless Barbarian trying to be no worse than an AC 20 Fighter, he might want to consider stopping with the Reckless when he's outnumbered 3-to-1.

True 'nuff. Ideally, though, a "tanky" Barbarian kinda wants to be outnumbered at least 2:1 to prevent that/those assailant/s from attacking someone else. Depends on what role your looking to fill in a given fight, I suppose.

[samcifer]

okay, I think on my character, I'll go for the lucky feat instead of a stat increase. I have to if I ever want to have a hope of hitting anything. Over the last several sessions, over 65% of my rolls on the d20s (using several different types of chessex dice,) I am rolling single digits and am sick of it. I need the re-roll option. Also, getting inspiration from my dm is incredibly difficult as I'm getting it less often than the other players, but granted, I'm one if the new people in the group while the rest have good, longstanding relationships with him and know him and his sense of humor much better than me so this is likely the only way to guarantee I get re-rolls. Accuracy is meaningless when I'm consistently rolling number far too low for +1s o have any effect. The DM himself even commented on how crappy my die rolls tend to be on average and expressed sympathy. I warned him I'm going for lucky next when I get my first ASI at character lv. 6.