Dark Sun 5e conversion - questions

[odigity]

I just joined a 5e Dark Sun game. The DM pointed me to these two resources:


https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/31y843/dark_sun_5th_edition_players_handbook_v20/
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf


Has anyone tried using the above-linked Players Handbook? Looks like a lot of work went into it, but there are some parts that look... rough, and I have some questions.

Specifically, I've chosen to play a Dwarf Cleric, Earth domain. Here are a few things I have concerns about:

Dwarf Traits: Focus — You gain a +1 bonus on all checks directly related to your focus. This includes a skill bonus, an attack bonus, a damage bonus, or a saving throw bonus, or even a bonus to manifestation or spell save DCs.

That seems enormously powerful. If I exercise care when choosing my focii, I can find a way to apply this +1 to virtually every roll I make while adventuring — including damage!.

Dwarf Traits: Defiled Skin — You have a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

This, too, seems enormously powerful. I don't know of any other race in D&D 5e that provides bonuses vs all spells and magical effects. Maybe that's more appropriate in the Dark Sun setting, I'm not terribly familiar with it. I know about the Sorcerer King / Defiler / Preserver stuff, but in D&D, "magical" refers to all kinds of magic, including Clerics, Druids, Bards, etc.

Channel Divinity: Fellowship of Stone — This ability lasts for 1 minute. A number of small stones equal to your Cleric level will roll towards you or fly towards your enemies. Their attack bonus is equal to your own. This ability does not work if there are no stones present in the surrounding area. Each stone deals 1d8 bludgeoning damage.

There are several problems with this feature:


There is no action type mentioned. Is this an action, bonus action, free action, a ten minute rain dance?
There is no range mentioned. How far away can the stones be? How far away can my enemies be? Do the stones move towards their destination instantaneously, or does it take time?
When it says their attack bonus is equal to your own — my own what? Spell attack bonus? Ranged weapon attack bonus?
Does each stone have its own attack roll and target?
When it says This ability does not work if there are no stones present in the surrounding area. — what if I carry a sack of stones with me?


I'll problem run into more issues later, but so far I'm only level 2, so these are the issues I've run across so far.

[Anonymouswizard]

I checked my 2e pdf to check what it says about focuses, and it's pretty vague but gives much more detail. A focus must 1) take at least a week's work to complete and 2) when a dwarf is committed to a focus he'll try to keep working on it to the exclusion of anything else except for survival. It also does not apply to damage rolls, and only arguably applies to to-hit rolls, it seems to have more to do with keeping going (+1 to saves) and work (the bonus to proficiencies).

The bonus to spells is a leftover from 2e, and it makes sense. Athasian dwarves could not learn Arcane magic, like all 2e dwarves, but as an exchange were resistant to it's effects. It makes a lot of sense, not only are Athasian races meant to be more powerful than normal ones as a direct comparison (to justify why planar invaders might run without looking), but magic is rare on Athas. In 5e most classes are spellcasters, in Dark Sun the only legal spellcasters are the Templars and Defilers serving the Sorcerer Kings, Clerics are rare, Preservers rarer, and Druids rarest of all (and could probably be removed from the setting easily). Even magic items are extremely uncommon, the equivalent to a +1 sword is a mundane sword made out of iron, one made out of steel might be a +2 sword. In a 'proper' Dark Sun game, even one where you fight the Sorcerer Kings, it should come into play less than once per session. It really is a case of 'powerful, but rarely worth the cost'.

As a side note, I do not like how that pdf changed defiling and preserving into traditions. Back in 2e the difference was that defilers didn't learn how to put energy back and so learnt higher level spells faster (read: less XP per level), in the 3e version I like it instead became that defilers had stronger spells, but Preservers could choose to defile at the risk of losing the ability to preserve (which I like), which was essentially moved to 'you can defile for a bonus' in 5e. But both could still specialise, and the only different in actual capabilities was a handful of unique spells. (Note, a preserver who actually manages to reach 9-10th level is a massive boon, with material components that consist of a seed and a meaningless amount of water even for Athas they can give a circle of land with a radius equal to their level the ability to support plant life, but there being one on the planet is hideously unlikely)

For Fellowship of Stone, no clue. 2e Clerics didn't have abilities like that.

[odigity]

Thanks for taking the time to share all that, it was very helpful.





A focus must 1) take at least a week's work to complete and 2) when a dwarf is committed to a focus he'll try to keep working on it to the exclusion of anything else except for survival.

It makes sense that there would be some downside to the benefit to balance it. Treating it as a dangerous obsession that could force you into the occasional sub-optimal or morally questionable decision while in pursuit seems fair, and good for the game's story.


It also does not apply to damage rolls, and only arguably applies to to-hit rolls, it seems to have more to do with keeping going (+1 to saves) and work (the bonus to proficiencies).

That makes a lot more sense. Applying the bonus to practically every die roll is ridiculous.


The bonus to spells is a leftover from 2e, and it makes sense...

Ok, I can accept that explanation.


...in Dark Sun the only legal spellcasters are the Templars and Defilers serving the Sorcerer Kings, Clerics are rare, Preservers rarer, and Druids rarest of all (and could probably be removed from the setting easily).

What's funny is our party is not only all spellcasters (Cleric (Earth), Cleric (Water), Druid, Ranger), but all Wis-based chars, which I've never seen happen before in any setting. Every time we have to interact with an NPC, we all just stare at them and observe silently...

[Theodoxus]

Channel Divinity: Fellowship of Stone — This ability lasts for 1 minute. A number of small stones equal to your Cleric level will roll towards you or fly towards your enemies. Their attack bonus is equal to your own. This ability does not work if there are no stones present in the surrounding area. Each stone deals 1d8 bludgeoning damage.

There are several problems with this feature:


There is no action type mentioned. Is this an action, bonus action, free action, a ten minute rain dance?
There is no range mentioned. How far away can the stones be? How far away can my enemies be? Do the stones move towards their destination instantaneously, or does it take time?
When it says their attack bonus is equal to your own — my own what? Spell attack bonus? Ranged weapon attack bonus?
Does each stone have its own attack roll and target?
When it says This ability does not work if there are no stones present in the surrounding area. — what if I carry a sack of stones with me?


I'll problem run into more issues later, but so far I'm only level 2, so these are the issues I've run across so far.

This is so under-described, it'll literally take your DM to adjudicate. I can offer my suggestions, but that's all they are...

The Channel itself is an action. Once that's done, I'd rule that actually using the rocks would be a Bonus Action, usable the same round. Each attack with a rock would be a separate ranged spell attack, usable at a range equal to a sling (I'm AFB, but that seems reasonable).
As for carrying rocks, sure, why not? An action to pour them out... another action to use Channel... probably 3-4 rounds gathering them back up after a fight, depending on how many and how spread out they are. Maybe, like arrows, you can only gather up 50% - the rest shattered on impact/misses?

1d8 per level, directed at multiple attacks is a bit much, IMO. If I were writing up the ability, I'd probably do #rocks=proficiency bonus.

Hope that helps, at least for a starting point.

[Anonymouswizard]

Thanks for taking the time to share all that, it was very helpful.

You're welcome. I like Dark Sun, but do have a particular dislike for that version. If I ever do get around to using it again I'll likely be running it with GURPS, the grittiness fits with Dark Sun and defiling neatly slots in as a Nuisance Effect for Magery, or with 2e using the original box set (which I think is worth the cost for a legal pdf, but only if you're going to be running instead of playing).


It makes sense that there would be some downside to the benefit to balance it. Treating it as a dangerous obsession that could force you into the occasional sub-optimal or morally questionable decision while in pursuit seems fair, and good for the game's story.

Yep. Note that there's nothing wrong with picking an obsession that helps with the PCs goal, your kind of expected to, but you shouldn't always have an obsession and it should cause roleplaying.


That makes a lot more sense. Applying the bonus to practically every die roll is ridiculous.

Yeah, although not applying to to-hit rolls is my personal interpretation, the exact wording is that is applies to proficiency rolls which I'm afb and so can't check the glossary. I'd recommend suggesting to your GM limiting the rolls it applies to, because that version is ridiculously easy to abuse.


Ok, I can accept that explanation.

I mean, removing it wouldn't be problematic, especially if you keep the insane version of focus.

Also note that everybody in Dark Sun is supposed to have at least one psionic power, as well as most of the animals, and resistance to spells did nothing against them. The most powerful characters in the setting are also 20th level mages/20th level psionicists, so they have more than enough raw psionic power to beat down any dwarf that thinks they're an equal.


What's funny is our party is not only all spellcasters (Cleric (Earth), Cleric (Water), Druid, Ranger), but all Wis-based chars, which I've never seen happen before in any setting. Every time we have to interact with an NPC, we all just stare at them and observe silently...

Yeah it's interesting. Note the most people will tolerate Clerics, but their experience of Druids will be of extremists. I can't remember what Rangers were like beyond having their spells untouched.

The traditional DS party would like be Fighter, Gladiator, Psionicist, Thief/Bard, with maybe a Cleric. Although most PC parties would likely include both a Priest character and a Wizard character.