Brainstorm: non-spellcasting Rangers as Fighter archetypes (that don't suck)

[Dalebert]

I'm actually designing this as I type this post and working through my process. I'm going to start with the base ranger features and chunk whatever isn't worth bothering with. We're trying to get lean since the ranger will get all base fighter features so I'm scratching anything that's duplicated in fighter or that's just lame and seems rarely useful. I'll then make the ranger archetypes into fighter archetypes. I think there's room to make a spellcasting archetype as well comparable to an eldritch knight but won't attempt that yet. A bit ambitious.

Ranger features: 1)Favored Enemy, 1)Natural Explorer, 2)Fighting Style, 2)Spellcasting, 3)Primeval Awareness, 4)ASI, 5)Extra Attack, 7)Land's Stride (changed), 10)Hide in Plain Sight, 14)Vanish, 18)Feral Senses, 20)Foe Slayer.

Now we assign some of these features to different archetypes along with some of their own stuff at the levels when fighter archetypes get things.

Hunter
3rd: Favored Enemy, Hunter's Prey, prof in Animal Handling, Perception, Survival, or Stealth
7th: Additional Favored Enemy, Defensive Tactics
10th: Evasion or Uncanny Dodge (not in heavy armor)
15th: Additional Favored Enemy, Foe Slayer
18th: Feral Senses

Explorer (movement abilities and rogue-like abilities don't work in heavy armor)
3rd: Natural Explorer, Land's Stride (only in favored terrain), prof+expertise in your choice of Animal Handling, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival
7th: Additional Favored Terrain, Vanish (while in favored terrains)
10th: Evasion or Uncanny Dodge, Additional Favored Terrain, +10 movement in favored terrains
15th: Bonus Action Dash (while in favored terrains)
18th: Feral Senses

Yes, it's bothering me a little that there's duplication but at the moment I'm aiming for balance. Thoughts?

[Avigor]

I think it's a workable idea; might need some tweaking, but it is a solid idea to adapt the 5e Ranger sans spells into a Fighter Archetype IMO...

[Desteplo]

UA also made “scout” a fighter subclass before a rogue one. Very much fighter ranger

[Citan]

I'm actually designing this as I type this post and working through my process. I'm going to start with the base ranger features and chunk whatever isn't worth bothering with. We're trying to get lean since the ranger will get all base fighter features so I'm scratching anything that's duplicated in fighter or that's just lame and seems rarely useful. I'll then make the ranger archetypes into fighter archetypes. I think there's room to make a spellcasting archetype as well comparable to an eldritch knight but won't attempt that yet. A bit ambitious.

Ranger features: 1)Favored Enemy, 1)Natural Explorer, 2)Fighting Style, 2)Spellcasting, 3)Primeval Awareness, 4)ASI, 5)Extra Attack, 7)Land's Stride (changed), 10)Hide in Plain Sight, 14)Vanish, 18)Feral Senses, 20)Foe Slayer.

Now we assign some of these features to different archetypes along with some of their own stuff at the levels when fighter archetypes get things.

Hunter
3rd: Favored Enemy, Hunter's Prey, prof in Animal Handling, Perception, Survival, or Stealth
7th: Additional Favored Enemy, Defensive Tactics
10th: Evasion or Uncanny Dodge (not in heavy armor)
15th: Additional Favored Enemy, Foe Slayer
18th: Feral Senses

Explorer (movement abilities and rogue-like abilities don't work in heavy armor)
3rd: Natural Explorer, Land's Stride (only in favored terrain), prof+expertise in your choice of Animal Handling, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival
7th: Additional Favored Terrain, Vanish (while in favored terrains)
10th: Evasion or Uncanny Dodge, Additional Favored Terrain, +10 movement in favored terrains
15th: Bonus Action Dash (while in favored terrains)
18th: Feral Senses

Yes, it's bothering me a little that there's duplication but at the moment I'm aiming for balance. Thoughts?
Hi!
I finally got what you were trying to do at second read, title was a bit confusing at first (I read too fast didn't help either ;)).

Seems like a great draft to me, not many things needing tweaking.
There are a few things bothering me, but first could you please..

- Confirm you are working from the official version of Ranger, and not the revised?
- Whether if that is the case, you would consider grabbing some ideas from the Revised version?
- Remind me what exactly do Favored Enemy and Hunter's Prey? (I could look on Google normally but restricted web currently, already nice this forum is allowed ^^).

[Tanarii]

What's the point? If they can't cast spells, they aren't a Ranger. That's a core feature of being a Ranger.

[Avigor]

What's the point? If they can't cast spells, they aren't a Ranger. That's a core feature of being a Ranger.

That could be argued as truth, but a lot of 5e's Ranger just feels off to me, like a fighter with wilderness survival training, instead of the Druidic equivalent of a Paladin which I believe they should have been from the start, where instead of wildshape they all have an animal companion (kinda like how Paladins trade the Cleric domain powers for Smite Evil) and they trade more spells for more martial prowess.

I've also always felt the favored enemy being ranger-exclusive felt beyond forced, and should be something any martial can choose to do, kind of like a weapon specialization style (i.e. specialize in fighting dragons, demons, undead, or orcs instead of specializing in great weapons, archery, sword and board, or TWF). I desperately hope that the next edition makes foe specialization into a fighting style option that any martial can choose instead of or alongside the fighting styles they can already pick... Hmmm maybe I should try my own (more extensive) homebrew based on this...

[Citan]

What's the point? If they can't cast spells, they aren't a Ranger. That's a core feature of being a Ranger.
You should remember that WoTC themselves made a case about building a homebrew archetype for Ranger that stripped of spells to replace it by manoeuvers and self-made potions.
So some could argue that spellcasting is not at all a core feature of being a Ranger.

Especially since so many Ranger spells are just glorified magically empowered weapon attacks like smite spells (they just made its spells because it was easier to manage than create a whole new range of mechanics just for a few effects).

I'd rather say that the core feature of Ranger is the whole "explorer" thing, but it's an equally biaised point of view.
I actually think that Ranger has the best balance of all class in the tryptical skills/martial/magic so it's hard to say one is more "core" than the other. ;)

[Theodoxus]

I've also always felt the favored enemy being ranger-exclusive felt beyond forced, and should be something any martial can choose to do, kind of like a weapon specialization style (i.e. specialize in fighting dragons, demons, undead, or orcs instead of specializing in great weapons, archery, sword and board, or TWF). I desperately hope that the next edition makes foe specialization into a fighting style option that any martial can choose instead of or alongside the fighting styles they can already pick... Hmmm maybe I should try my own (more extensive) homebrew based on this...

I suggest you look at Zman's E10 as a jumping point/inspiration. Using feats for multiclassing, a bit like, but more robust than, 4th Ed's take - would allow for exactly this kind of mix/mash of abilities without feeling forced or causing delay in the primary class progression.

I'm doing a similar project, using only Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Sorcerer/Wizard as primary classes and all the rest as subclasses (via multiclassing through feats).

[Easy_Lee]

The easiest way to build a fighter archetype is to:

Base it upon an existing archetype
Decide those areas in which the new archetype should excel

I'll use Champion and decide it should be good at scouting outdoors and killing favored enemies.

We want to be sure not to make this overpowered. Let's stick with one feature each time the class gains an archetype feature (two at level 3 since many archetypes start with two features), and let's be sure that the features do something similar to what the Champion archetype gains at the same level. That basically means that the level 7 feature should not be combat-focused or, if it is, it shouldn't increase damage.

Sample Fighter: Ranger

3: Favored Enemy + Primeval Awareness (as from Revised Ranger)
7: Land's Stride: ignore difficult terrain, advantage on stealth, athletics, and survival checks while outdoors or in a natural area (such as a cave or the Underdark)
10: Greater Favored Enemy (as from Revised Ranger)
15: Vanish OR Whirlwind Attack / Volley Shot OR Feral Senses

Giving the player options here, when combined with choice of Favored Enemy, provides customization and build-variety

18: Foe Slayer

Note that this is normally a capstone, but it's an exceptionally weak capstone. Up to +5 to hit or damage once per turn at level 18 is not broken by any means.


That's my take. I hope this was helpful.

[Specter]

Instead of giving skill proficiencies, this is what you can do:

Natural Explorer
When you reach level 3, you gain proficiency in the Survival and Nature skills. If you're already proficient in it, you double your proficiency bonus for any check you make with those skills.

(btw this is what they should have done with Scout; instead, the player benefits from not having the skills at the beginning of his career, and only be able to Expertise them at 6th level.)

[Dalebert]

- Confirm you are working from the official version of Ranger, and not the revised?
- Whether if that is the case, you would consider grabbing some ideas from the Revised version?


It feels very unofficial to me. I tend to avoid such things as I play mainly AL. This is mostly just a thought experiment. I keep seeing them try to give rangers substitutes for what fighters get but not as good. Look at their very conditional multi-attack options at 11th level. If they just get fighter features, then you can chunk all those half-assed attempts to make them sorta almost as good as fighters.


- Remind me what exactly do Favored Enemy and Hunter's Prey? (I could look on Google normally but restricted web currently, already nice this forum is allowed ^^).

Favored Enemy is a really long list of (very) minor features related to knowing about and tracking their favored enemy. Hunter's Prey is your choice of Collasus Slayer, Giant Killer, or Horde Breaker.


The easiest way to build a fighter archetype is to:

Base it upon an existing archetype
Decide those areas in which the new archetype should excel



That's exactly what I attempted to do. I was comparing it to Eldritch Knight going along as Champion is designed to be very simple and ranger features don't seem that.

I worried my choices might be too good but I'm looking at yours and they seem maybe a little too weak. I noticed you kept Primeval Awareness which is interesting. I think it's a silly ability which is almost never useful. Plus it uses spell slots. This is a spell-less ranger.

[Specter]

I noticed you kept Primeval Awareness which is interesting. I think it's a silly ability which is almost never useful. Plus it uses spell slots. This is a spell-less ranger.

I've used Primeval Awareness as a great means of information, ironically, more in the city than in the wild. When you want to be sure a vampire/lich really is around, or when enemies are invading and you want to know exactly what you'll face.

As for the spell slot part, just replace for 'you can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier'.

[Easy_Lee]

I worried my choices might be too good but I'm looking at yours and they seem maybe a little too weak. I noticed you kept Primeval Awareness which is interesting. I think it's a silly ability which is almost never useful. Plus it uses spell slots. This is a spell-less ranger.

The revised version is very useful. That's the one I intended. Same with Favored and Greater Favored Enemy.
https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf

[GlenSmash!]

The revised version is very useful. That's the one I intended. Same with Favored and Greater Favored Enemy.
https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf

Yup. Revised Primeval Awareness is far better and more interesting than the PHB version.