Thoughts on the War Mage?

[nvisibl]

So I just got my copy of XGtE.
I was really excited to see what the War Magic arcane tradition had to offer....and boy, was I disappointed.

Arcane Deflection: bonus to AC is...okay, but the saving throw is probably the best feature of the subclass.

Tactical Wit: this could also be considered the best feature of this subclass.

Power Surge: This feature absolutely boggles my mind. So situational, only working with dispel and counterspell to build charges, for a peck-on-the-cheek of damage. Maybe using full wizard level for damage or the capability to use multiple charges could improve it. However, it's still so situational I feel you would rarely have the opportunity (or desire even) to use it. Complete rubbish imo.

Durable Magic: another AC and saving throw bonus during concentration. It's....okay.

Deflecting Shroud: all well and good...but again for garbage damage.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this subclass feels so....empty. I don't see a reason to ever pick it over any other Wizard archetype. I think they should have included additional profeciencies to go along with it, maybe armor and/or shields and/or martial weapons. Maybe WotC didnt want to tread too heavily on the toes of EK or Hexblade, idk.

Anyone have any experience playing this or with one? Am I missing something. Enlighten me, please.

[HolyDraconus]

So I just got my copy of XGtE.
I was really excited to see what the War Magic arcane tradition had to offer....and boy, was I disappointed.

Arcane Deflection: bonus to AC is...okay, but the saving throw is probably the best feature of the subclass.

Tactical Wit: this could also be considered the best feature of this subclass.

Power Surge: This feature absolutely boggles my mind. So situational, only working with dispel and counterspell to build charges, for a peck-on-the-cheek of damage. Maybe using full wizard level for damage or the capability to use multiple charges could improve it. However, it's still so situational I feel you would rarely have the opportunity (or desire even) to use it. Complete rubbish imo.

Durable Magic: another AC and saving throw bonus during concentration. It's....okay.

Deflecting Shroud: all well and good...but again for garbage damage.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this subclass feels so....empty. I don't see a reason to ever pick it over any other Wizard archetype. I think they should have included additional profeciencies to go along with it, maybe armor and/or shields and/or martial weapons. Maybe WotC didnt want to tread too heavily on the toes of EK or Hexblade, idk.

Anyone have any experience playing this or with one? Am I missing something. Enlighten me, please.
If you thumb through the classes as a whole, it appears that certain ones was finished or O.K.d before the others. Plus, as a whole the book I find rather... disappointing. War Mage self hyped Power Surge so much that I can't help but feel like it was supposed to be something else but we got this. We already know the deal with Radiant Soul, so it being what it is isn't that surprising. Arcane Archer feels like it needed another go around, as does Samurai, as does Cavalier. Huh... all the fighter subs. To boil it down, the book should be renamed Hexblade and new spells *with Names!*, cause it's about the only thing that stands out. It's a missed opportunity, but like Volo's, it will be played heavily for a few weeks (new!), then largely forgotten save Hexblade.

[Paeleus]

From my limited exposure, I’d say the devs leaned away from pumping offensive capabilities and leaned a bit too heavily on the defensive side of things. Almost like an Abjuration Wizard. You would think +int to spell damage would have come at level 6, but there ya go.

I get the feeling they were trying to build a caster subclass that was able to counter a Sorcerer with Heighten Spell maybe? As a fan of Sorc, I’d like to see Arcane Deflection as a meta magic (as well as some of the Loremaster abilities, but that’s neither here nor there).

[nvisibl]

Granted I haven't made it through all the subclasses yet (I skipped ahead to war mage), but I disagree that they are mostly sub par.

Loved all the Barb subs, never wanted to do a Barbadin (Palabarian?) until I read the zealot. Ancestral and Herald also look interesting imo. Love the bards (esp swords) and have never really been that interested in druid until now. I think the biggest problem with the cavalier is it's misnamed. Knight or Vanguard or Phalanx even would have been better for highly disciplined supertank, protective meatshield. I think it was named Cavalier to appease all those out there wanting a mounted combatant (which I never really understood since there's no real mechanical upside, other than mobility) I guess. Might have to digest arcane archer a little more, but didn't see any real big problems with it, especially as a MC. Samurai even works imo, just not a huge powerhouse, yet simple and effective similar to Champion.

[HunterOfJello]

I have the strong impression that the developers ended up going after overall goals of:

1. Introduce old class options for 2e and 3.5 so that people would have them available (examples: blade, samurai, kensei, etc.)
2. Ensure that there are more directions that a character can take but that the power boost they get is definitely not a strong alternative to original PHB options.
3. Add *cool* character options that take classes in new directions that are flavorful and have interesting features that aren't actually OP or a boost to the classes actual normal strengths. (examples: Warrior of the Gods for Zealot Barbarians, Master of Tactics for Mastermind Rogue, Hound of Ill Omen for Shadow Magic Sorcerers)
This is generally the opposite of the Assassin's Assassinate feature which gave a very major boost to a rogue's damage. Rogues are damage dealers so that heavy bonus was a bad idea if you want to give players lots of options for directions to go with their archetype.

[Darth_Versity]

So I just got my copy of XGtE.
I was really excited to see what the War Magic arcane tradition had to offer....and boy, was I disappointed.

I understand your feelings entirely. The war mage feels like such a let down. It's actually really strong thanks to it save and initiative bonuses, but the flavour is just non existent. The abilities seem to have no thematic connection and are just sort of... there.

I will probably rework it for my players based more on the war weaver from 3.5. Maybe allowing concentration on two spells at once but with a harsher save when taking damage and only cantrips can be cast.

[PopeLinus1]

The way I’m seeing it, their preventing play-to-win.

Right now, it has a ton of options for people who want to do something abnormal. Like good expanded content has, But, if all the classes are very powerful, than normal content, than people with the book have a clear advantage. So the new subclasses have fun, different, and entertaining options, but they won’t be the best, just fun to play.

[Mortis_Elrod]

The way I’m seeing it, their preventing play-to-win.

Right now, it has a ton of options for people who want to do something abnormal. Like good expanded content has, But, if all the classes are very powerful, than normal content, than people with the book have a clear advantage. So the new subclasses have fun, different, and entertaining options, but they won’t be the best, just fun to play.

Lol what? Win what? D&D is a team game. Any advantage to a player is an advantage to the team. Also some of these subclasses are VERY strong alternatives.

Zealot
Ancestral guardian
Blades Bard
Kensai
Drunken Master
Hexblade

These are just a few of the really good options. Options I’d probably take over phb or scag. Not to mention the feats and new invocations and spells in the book.

[Aett_Thorn]

Lol what? Win what? D&D is a team game. Any advantage to a player is an advantage to the team. Also some of these subclasses are VERY strong alternatives.

Zealot
Ancestral guardian
Blades Bard
Kensai
Drunken Master
Hexblade

These are just a few of the really good options. Options I’d probably take over phb or scag. Not to mention the feats and new invocations and spells in the book.

While I do agree that some of the options in XGtE are pretty good, I disagree that the Kensei is one of the stronger options. Certainly, it allows you to do something a bit different (Ranged Weapon Monk, anyone), but I wouldn't say that it's all that strong in comparison. The Drunken Master is way better, IMO.

But yes, the Hexblade in particular is one of the strongest options we've seen yet, and is entirely front-loaded. It allows for several other classes to take it as a 1-level dip and reap great rewards.

There seems to be a mix of crappy options (Storm Herald Barbarian, College of Whispers Bard, Arcane Archer, War Wizard), a decent range of different but effective options, and a couple of amazeballs options (e.g., Hexblade). Overall, I'd say that XGtE is pretty good for introducing options, but some of them just make me wonder what the Devs were thinking.

[Darth_Versity]

Lol what? Win what? D&D is a team game. Any advantage to a player is an advantage to the team. Also some of these subclasses are VERY strong alternatives.

Zealot
Ancestral guardian
Blades Bard
Kensai
Drunken Master
Hexblade

These are just a few of the really good options. Options I’d probably take over phb or scag. Not to mention the feats and new invocations and spells in the book.

Mechanically, the war mage is very strong. Possibly the strongest wizard option. The problem is it doesn't have any 'soul'. It's just mechanical advantages with no real theme tying it together.

[PeteNutButter]

So I just got my copy of XGtE.
I was really excited to see what the War Magic arcane tradition had to offer....and boy, was I disappointed.

Arcane Deflection: bonus to AC is...okay, but the saving throw is probably the best feature of the subclass.

Tactical Wit: this could also be considered the best feature of this subclass.

Power Surge: This feature absolutely boggles my mind. So situational, only working with dispel and counterspell to build charges, for a peck-on-the-cheek of damage. Maybe using full wizard level for damage or the capability to use multiple charges could improve it. However, it's still so situational I feel you would rarely have the opportunity (or desire even) to use it. Complete rubbish imo.

Durable Magic: another AC and saving throw bonus during concentration. It's....okay.

Deflecting Shroud: all well and good...but again for garbage damage.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this subclass feels so....empty. I don't see a reason to ever pick it over any other Wizard archetype. I think they should have included additional profeciencies to go along with it, maybe armor and/or shields and/or martial weapons. Maybe WotC didnt want to tread too heavily on the toes of EK or Hexblade, idk.

Anyone have any experience playing this or with one? Am I missing something. Enlighten me, please.

If you’re looking for more damage, you’re looking in the wrong place. They clearly kept the damage down so it didn’t step on the Invoker’s toes.

Like any subclass it has strong abilities at certain levels and not so strong ones at others. The damage boost is just a once per short rest minor spike in damage. If you have prep time before a big fight and lots of slots (high level) you could blow a couple 3rd level slots to dispell your own ritual spells, just so you can use it every round in the big fight. Mostly it’s just going to be once a short rest.

The real strengths of the subclass are the level 2 and 10 features. Ac/saves boost and more ac. That doesn’t go on a wizard so amazingly since their AC is usually mud, but it works great on any multiclass that can have heavy armor. A fighter 1/war wizard 10 will have a 23 AC that can be boosted to 25 as a free reaction without magic items. With shield spell and some magic items you could easily be pushing 30 AC.

The bottom line is the class is far better as a multiclass dip or with a dip. I see something like EK 6+/war wizard 2+ as a good build.

[Mortis_Elrod]

The bottom line is the class is far better as a multiclass dip or with a dip. I see something like EK 6+/war wizard 2+ as a good build.

I think that’s an issue. That’s not a good design choice.

[PeteNutButter]

I think that’s an issue. That’s not a good design choice.

Well it's not always clear that the designers know what they are doing, so you might not call it a choice... At least it's a subclass that is best used as multiclassing and not an entire base class *cough* sorcerer *cough.*

[Pex]

From an optimizing or power gamer stance, I would never want to play a War Mage. Each ability fails the would I'd rather have the other ability test for all the schools.

[ImproperJustice]

Well, I recently swapper from Alchemist to a level 5 War Wizard, so maybe I just like the challenge of “undesirable” classes?

Impressions so far:

I’m a big fan of the Black Company novels and how their mages mainly aided their allies through support magic. I have always actually hated the specialist wizards and prefer the flexibility of a standard mage. War Wizard, thematically is right up my alley.

So I am running a Soldier Background military trained combat mage who supports his allies with enemy suppression and scouting.

Thus far, my familar (went with a bat since it is low profile in a dugenon), has been excellent for scouting purposes.

In battles thus far, I have used Cause Fear and Slow to cripple or break up enemy groups so that my allies could execute their plans successfully.
Gust of Wind and Ray of Frost has turned out to be more handy than I thought by shutting down a 10’ corridoor where a group of enemies tried ambushing us from the rear. My 16 dex, mage armor, and arcane deflection meant that when one determined foe finally closed with me, he did no harm before being sent back to start on the following turn.

Tactical Wit is wonderful. A+7 to initiative means I get to set the pace of the conflict by getting a first strike with a control spell of my choice.

Similarly, twice in one session, the +4 to save from arcane deflection was the difference between being a major influence in an encounter vs. being completely out of the battle.

I agree with consensus that Power Surge is underpowered. I may not really see any Oomph from it until very late in the game, but free damage is free damage right?

Overall, my experience is positive but I recognize my playstyle gels with the class.
I very much feel the flavor as a near frontline caster, shutting down enemy magic users and clearing threats while the martials tear through the enemy. My defenses mean they don’t have to worry about me, and the ability to go first means I have a say in the opening of every battle.

[JackPhoenix]

I think the War Mage is a good fit for the elusive generalist Wizard some people want. Their abilities don't seem to have any specific niche... yes, they are mostly defensive in nature, but not to the extent Abjuration school is: there are defensive options, offensive options, increased initiative, bonus to concentration... the stuff every adventuring wizard wants. Although they may be sub-optimal in execution, it makes the base Wizard chasis a bit better at everything important. It's not really what I'd expected from a subclass called War Mage: nothing to help (or hinder) an army (which obviously isn't a focus for most games anyway), no large-scale blasting (beyond spells available to any wizard) or friendly fire avoidance, not even armor or weapon proficiencies I'd expect from someone who's entire purpose is to take part in battles.

[samcifer]

If you thumb through the classes as a whole, it appears that certain ones was finished or O.K.d before the others. Plus, as a whole the book I find rather... disappointing. War Mage self hyped Power Surge so much that I can't help but feel like it was supposed to be something else but we got this. We already know the deal with Radiant Soul, so it being what it is isn't that surprising. Arcane Archer feels like it needed another go around, as does Samurai, as does Cavalier. Huh... all the fighter subs. To boil it down, the book should be renamed Hexblade and new spells *with Names!*, cause it's about the only thing that stands out. It's a missed opportunity, but like Volo's, it will be played heavily for a few weeks (new!), then largely forgotten save Hexblade.

I still like Divine Soul as it pretty much doubles the sorcerer spell list by adding the base list of the cleric and nets you an extra spell so long as it's a cleric spell.

[HolyDraconus]

I still like Divine Soul as it pretty much doubles the sorcerer spell list by adding the base list of the cleric and nets you an extra spell so long as it's a cleric spell.

Divine Soul allows you to add the cleric spell list as an extra pool to choose from. Your spells known doesn't increase (save for the extremely few freebies), and on the whole it's meh. The problem is, sadly, that the subclass is linked to the sorcerer, who is just not good enough to stand on its own. Favored Soul UA would of shored up the sorcerer hugely, but nah, they chose to keep sorc the multiclass only class that it's been for years now. At this point as much as people hate it, I really wished that they made 5.5, solely to improve the base classes so that certain ones are worth playing to the end. It's freaking stupid that I can multiclass and get the Sorcerer capstone, with benefits.

[samcifer]

Divine Soul allows you to add the cleric spell list as an extra pool to choose from. Your spells known doesn't increase (save for the extremely few freebies), and on the whole it's meh. The problem is, sadly, that the subclass is linked to the sorcerer, who is just not good enough to stand on its own. Favored Soul UA would of shored up the sorcerer hugely, but nah, they chose to keep sorc the multiclass only class that it's been for years now. At this point as much as people hate it, I really wished that they made 5.5, solely to improve the base classes so that certain ones are worth playing to the end. It's freaking stupid that I can multiclass and get the Sorcerer capstone, with benefits.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Favored Soul was a subclass and the only thing it had that DS doesn't is boosts to social interactions that used Charisma.

[Finger6842]

I haven't tried a dedicated War Wizard yet but it has been great as a MC dip for Lore Bard. In the short term it really shores up one of the Bards biggest weaknesses, driving the AC up far enough to backup tank in a pinch. It really rounds out the support character feel of the Lore Bard. We have a 1 shot lvl 14 campaign next week where I will play a 14 War Wizard and just looking at the abilities so far I'm pretty excited to give it a try.

[Galactkaktus]

I think war mage is pretty darn good the package is initiative and excelent saves and some other stuff. Diviner wizards are probably the strongest school for combat followed by abjurer and warmage.

[clem]

War mage will be my go to 2 level dip once the Artificer and Mystic are officially released.

[HolyDraconus]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Favored Soul was a subclass and the only thing it had that DS doesn't is boosts to social interactions that used Charisma.

Not quite. Let's explain the differences.
Divine Soul let's you learn specific spells based on your align..cough..."affinity", one spell, that would be a bonus. So on some sorcerers, you have one extra spell, one specific spell, more than they do. But you gain access to the cleric spell list as an option to learn spells on level up. You gain a once per rest ability to add 2-8 to any failed or miss attack roll. You gain a modified empower that only works on healing. We will ignore the wings. And a capstone that allows you to heal up to half your max once per long rest. Sounds good right? Now let's look at the original Favored Soul.


With Favored Soul you gain, at level 1, prof in light and medium armor, shields, and access to all simple weapons. The armor ups survivability I'm told. You also pick a cleric domain. Then add ALL those spells to your spells known, once you hit the levels a cleric would to unlock them. So while Divine has access to the entire list, Favored gets a smaller list for free. So Divine may be up on some sorcerers by one, Favored beats that. But let's keep going.
Extra attack at lvl 6. Starting to look like a wet dream for some gishes. Wings. Which again. Ignore. And gain hp equal to spell level+charisma modifier per spell. Hmm... Let check that out.
A sorcerer with 20 con (not hugely likely but still) will have an average of 182 hp at 20. So Divine Soul is healing 91 hp. A 20th level sorcerer has 22 slots, not counting shenanigans with restoring it. Let's say that all of them are level 1 (but they aren't). That means, a Favored can gain 88 hp if it had an 18 charisma at level 20. That's assuming all spells it cast were level 1. But what if any of those spells aren't level one? What if the sorcerer regains more spell slots? Divine is capped always at half maximum, once per long rest. Favored can keep going as long as it's willing to burn spell slots. And while Divine has to have its cleric spells compete with its sorcerer spells for spells known, Favored just GETS them.

Its the closest they made to the 3.5 class, and seeing how the changes in the second version of the Favored Soul nerfed it into the ground so much that the player base called it out for not being true to the source, they changed the name and greenlighted a version of the nerfed one. And here we are. With classes that need to be reworked, subclasses needing to be reworked, and martial needing something just to be different than the cookie cutters we have. And on top of all that we have War Mage, who is only viable cause it's strapped to the Wizard chassis, because wizards are still dumb*. If the War Mage was on Sorcerer, even Warlock, it wouldn't have even gotten a look. I'm just saying. It's been a decade at this point. I thank them on one hand for not releasing an ton of splat, but on the other, just ugh.

For a real world experience, in a party of 7, 1 is a pure warlock, 2 multiclass for 1 level (guess what subclass) 2 players are pure wizards (neither war mage) 1 is a druid (moon) and the last a cleric (life). It looks like they have it easy in the current AL season hardcover from where I am sitting.


*stupid as in still so good that it should be rebranded dungeons and wizards*

[BoxANT]

wait, War Wizard goes beyond level 2?

[Regulas]

It's worth noting that higher level boss types tend to use lots of spell that you really want to counterspell if you can, so having a caster focusing on it can be really key, so the power surge is actually more usable then you'd think. (Critical role's bard is a good example of decisive use of counterspell).

That being said the class' has the odd flaws of competing for reactions and the fact that the cantrip limitation makes it better for a warlock or EK that won't be wanting to cast spells all the time then as a pure caster. Though there are ways to get around this, like the new Dragon Breath spell.

[samcifer]

Not quite. Let's explain the differences.
Divine Soul let's you learn specific spells based on your align..cough..."affinity", one spell, that would be a bonus. So on some sorcerers, you have one extra spell, one specific spell, more than they do. But you gain access to the cleric spell list as an option to learn spells on level up. You gain a once per rest ability to add 2-8 to any failed or miss attack roll. You gain a modified empower that only works on healing. We will ignore the wings. And a capstone that allows you to heal up to half your max once per long rest. Sounds good right? Now let's look at the original Favored Soul.


With Favored Soul you gain, at level 1, prof in light and medium armor, shields, and access to all simple weapons. The armor ups survivability I'm told. You also pick a cleric domain. Then add ALL those spells to your spells known, once you hit the levels a cleric would to unlock them. So while Divine has access to the entire list, Favored gets a smaller list for free. So Divine may be up on some sorcerers by one, Favored beats that. But let's keep going.
Extra attack at lvl 6. Starting to look like a wet dream for some gishes. Wings. Which again. Ignore. And gain hp equal to spell level+charisma modifier per spell. Hmm... Let check that out.
A sorcerer with 20 con (not hugely likely but still) will have an average of 182 hp at 20. So Divine Soul is healing 91 hp. A 20th level sorcerer has 22 slots, not counting shenanigans with restoring it. Let's say that all of them are level 1 (but they aren't). That means, a Favored can gain 88 hp if it had an 18 charisma at level 20. That's assuming all spells it cast were level 1. But what if any of those spells aren't level one? What if the sorcerer regains more spell slots? Divine is capped always at half maximum, once per long rest. Favored can keep going as long as it's willing to burn spell slots. And while Divine has to have its cleric spells compete with its sorcerer spells for spells known, Favored just GETS them.

Its the closest they made to the 3.5 class, and seeing how the changes in the second version of the Favored Soul nerfed it into the ground so much that the player base called it out for not being true to the source, they changed the name and greenlighted a version of the nerfed one. And here we are. With classes that need to be reworked, subclasses needing to be reworked, and martial needing something just to be different than the cookie cutters we have. And on top of all that we have War Mage, who is only viable cause it's strapped to the Wizard chassis, because wizards are still dumb*. If the War Mage was on Sorcerer, even Warlock, it wouldn't have even gotten a look. I'm just saying. It's been a decade at this point. I thank them on one hand for not releasing an ton of splat, but on the other, just ugh.

For a real world experience, in a party of 7, 1 is a pure warlock, 2 multiclass for 1 level (guess what subclass) 2 players are pure wizards (neither war mage) 1 is a druid (moon) and the last a cleric (life). It looks like they have it easy in the current AL season hardcover from where I am sitting.


*stupid as in still so good that it should be rebranded dungeons and wizards*

Not sure if that version of the favored soul is official or not. I just used the official ones from Unearthed Arcana, which had no proficiencies.

Also, do you have a link to the version you are referring to?

[PeteNutButter]

Not sure if that version of the favored soul is official or not. I just used the official ones from Unearthed Arcana, which had no proficiencies.

They had like 3 versions of it before they finally published it as the Divine Soul. Each version was weaker than the previous. It was just way too strong compared to the other origins. IMO it's in line with the others, and still quite strong now.

[Strangways]

I think as a War Mage you basically get a really, really strong level 2 ability in return for putting up with a mediocre level 6 ability.