Falling, grappling and turns

[Spiritchaser]

Let’s assume for a moment that winged flying PCs face grapple happy suicidal demons at a height of between 1200 and 1600 feet, These things love to grapple players in mid air, set speed to zero, and shriek and giggle as they plummet at 500’ per round while chewing on their cuddle-toy’s face.

There won’t be too many of these things, they’re just part of an attacking force...

But This is going to spread out the PCs, it may ground a few of them, and, while at level 15, the PCs likely won’t die from this on its own, it’s enough to be very dangerous. Some will have escape moves or high athletics checks and may get away, and at this level, all kinds of mobility powers are a thing... but I think these can be a decent and interesting threat.

That said, when does the fall happen?

“Logically” I would jump to the unplayable conclusion, that if the pair falls at 500’ per round, then the impact damage is resolved at the end of the last round of falling, after other actions... but in a game where movement of each individual is granular and sequential, this presents problems, to the degree that it doesn’t really work.

To fit the fall into the way 5e works, it seems like I should assign all the fall movement to the demon, and that the movement all occurs on the demon’s turn, and that the ground out impact damage to both the demon and PC happens then as well.

This raises the question of movement timing as well. I’m presuming that the demon can fly 40’ to the PC, grab on, then fall 500’ straight down. It’s kind of a soft banishment.

Does anyone see this working differently?

[Aett_Thorn]

So, just so I understand it, the PCs have a fly speed, but the Demons grapple them and try to fall?

[nickl_2000]

No RAW feeling here at all for me, but how I would handle it in a RAF situation. Given about 200 pounds and a normal air resistance and gravity of earth, it would take you about 11 seconds to fall 1400 feet.

Given that you will fall for more than one round, I would say that damage is applied at the end of PCs second round. Falling that distance is scary and if you give the PCs two chances to break out of it you are making is frightening, but a possible winnable situation

[Spiritchaser]

So, just so I understand it, the PCs have a fly speed, but the Demons grapple them and try to fall?

Yes, that is the intent.

[Aett_Thorn]

Yes, that is the intent.

Okay, so while I agree that there's no RAW way to do this, so it will all be up to DM rulings, I would say that the normal falling rules assume that the PCs have no way of resisting the fall. If the players have wings/flying speed, then they have a way to resist the fall, so the demon could only move the players up to its speed each turn. Without restraining the players, they can still use their wings/flying speed to stay aloft somewhat.

Basically, you'd need to give these demons something like the Grappler Feat to make the PCs restrained first.

Then I would start the clock from the 'end' of the demons turn. So they fall 500' that first turn, and then the rest of the way on the demon's second turn, as nickl outlined above. This would give the PCs at least some chance to escape.

[Spiritchaser]

frightening, but a possible winnable situation

Fun, frightening but winnable is the most important thing I want to achieve

[Spiritchaser]

Okay, so while I agree that there's no RAW way to do this, so it will all be up to DM rulings, I would say that the normal falling rules assume that the PCs have no way of resisting the fall. If the players have wings/flying speed, then they have a way to resist the fall, so the demon could only move the players up to its speed each turn. Without restraining the players, they can still use their wings/flying speed to stay aloft somewhat.

Basically, you'd need to give these demons something like the Grappler Feat to make the PCs restrained first.

Then I would start the clock from the 'end' of the demons turn. So they fall 500' that first turn, and then the rest of the way on the demon's second turn, as nickl outlined above. This would give the PCs at least some chance to escape.

Hmmn

By my read of RAW, all you have to do to a flying target without the hover property to make it fall is to set it’s speed to zero ( the fly spell is a valid counter here, since it grants hover, though the warlock accompanying the demons will have a couple of shots of counterspell, if the PCs don’t spoof them away first.)

Though the grappler feat makes sense for these things in general terms

[Aett_Thorn]

Hmmm...you do seem to be correct. But man, that just doesn't seem to make sense to me that a grapple could do that. But you are correct by RAW.

So suicide demon away!

[Tanarii]

Is falling forced movement? Because if so:
RAW it will break the grapple when one or the other starts to fall. Which will restore the flying creatures movement. Demon-things fall and go splat, PCs fly above (albeit 500 ft lower than before) laughing up their sleeves.

[Spiritchaser]

Is falling forced movement? Because if so:
RAW it will break the grapple when one or the other starts to fall. Which will restore the flying creatures movement. Demon-things fall and go splat, PCs fly above (albeit 500 ft lower than before) laughing up their sleeves.

Heh, I’m pretty sure no-one will make this argument based on common sense but... it wouldn’t hurt to add a note on this to my campaign rules and clarification sheet... just in case.

Thanks

[Spiritchaser]

Hmmm...you do seem to be correct. But man, that just doesn't seem to make sense to me that a grapple could do that. But you are correct by RAW.

So suicide demon away!

I think I’d represent it in game as the demon trying to use their wings to reduce flight speed as well as their claws to grab

The major concern I have is getting the PCs back into the fight.

I want a circumventable disruption (the demons) commanded by a tough but killable controller (a warlock with some control powers) and a primary foe with solid HP and damage, but not TOO many tricks.

Once the PCs are down 1000 feet, the combat will largely be over before they can get back in the game, which needs a separate way to fix.

That’s a different issue, and one that’s solvable in D&D, but definitely something to sort out sooner than later.

[willdaBEAST]

Heh, I’m pretty sure no-one will make this argument based on common sense but... it wouldn’t hurt to add a note on this to my campaign rules and clarification sheet... just in case.

Thanks

I think you could say the same about grappling someone mid air though. The reason you can grapple someone on the ground and reduce their speed to 0 because you overpower them with your strength and from my read of the condition, brace in a way that prevents them from moving.

When you're on a flying creature, you certainly could jiu-jitsu them or put them into some kind of wrestling hold that fully immobilizes their limbs or wings, but I don't think that's assumed. Imo bear hugging a flying creature, no matter how strong you are, wouldn't stop them from some kind of flying momentum (def not full fly speed), unless you specifically disable whatever allows them to fly. So in that case, I'd argue that with the fly spell, a grapple would have no affect unless the increased weight was enough to make the target plummet. Even then, I don't think it would be a vertical fall, they'd gradually lose forward momentum like half of a parabolic arch.

According to Crawford, carrying weight is the same as if you were on the ground for natural flight and spells that don't have specific weight limits like levitate.

[Spiritchaser]

So in that case, I'd argue that with the fly spell, a grapple would have no affect

You wouldn’t need to argue. The fly spell very specifically allows hovering, and would not be defeated by a grapple

[Vogie]

Fly is a concentration spell, and even though the OP was referring to specifically winged PCs, I could see that having an impact.

I could see the argument that either:

requiring a concentration check for the grappled flier to attempt to still stay aloft whilst grappled; or
after breaking the grapple, a dexterity check is needed to "right oneself" in the air to prevent falling

[Zene]

Some very questionable interpretations of RAW in this thread (no offense meant to anyone)

TLDR: Yes, it works. And the fall would happen whenever the grappler decided to stop flying.

Explanation:

A flying creature whose movement is set to 0, falls; unless something is supporting them (the ground counts, but so would a rope, a platform, or being held up by someone).

Separately, a flying creature can choose to stop flying; in which case it will fall, unless something is supporting it.

If a flying creature successfully grapples another flying creature, and thus inflicts the grappled condition; the grapplee's speed is set to 0. It does not fall, though, since it is being supported by the grappler (in effect, being dragged in place).

If the flying grappler (whose speed is not 0) then chooses to stop flying, it would fall; as would anything it is carrying/grappling, unless something else is supporting them. In this case, the grappled creature has a movement of 0, and nothing else is supporting it, so they would fall together. Additionally, you can think of them as being dragged by the grappler, straight down, at falling speed. As long as the grappler maintains the grapple, the grapplee's speed is still 0, and it will continue to fall with the grappler.

Now I could be missing something here, but I'm fairly certain that's the extent of the grappling and movement rules. And, not like this necessarily makes me more credible, but I've played a flying grappler (barbarogue, with boots of flying and later an eagle whistle) that liked to grapple, fly up, and then drop while maintaining the grapple. I've played him under many DMs in AL, and none ever saw an issue with it.

Of course, if a DM thought any of that didn't make sense, they could totally houserule something different.

[willdaBEAST]

Some very questionable interpretations of RAW in this thread (no offense meant to anyone)

TLDR: Yes, it works. And the fall would happen whenever the grappler decided to stop flying.

Explanation:

A flying creature whose movement is set to 0, falls; unless something is supporting them (the ground counts, but so would a rope, a platform, or being held up by someone).

Separately, a flying creature can choose to stop flying; in which case it will fall, unless something is supporting it.

If a flying creature successfully grapples another flying creature, and thus inflicts the grappled condition; the grapplee's speed is set to 0. It does not fall, though, since it is being supported by the grappler (in effect, being dragged in place).

If the flying grappler (whose speed is not 0) then chooses to stop flying, it would fall; as would anything it is carrying/grappling, unless something else is supporting them. In this case, the grappled creature has a movement of 0, and nothing else is supporting it, so they would fall together. Additionally, you can think of them as being dragged by the grappler, straight down, at falling speed. As long as the grappler maintains the grapple, the grapplee's speed is still 0, and it will continue to fall with the grappler.

Now I could be missing something here, but I'm fairly certain that's the extent of the grappling and movement rules. And, not like this necessarily makes me more credible, but I've played a flying grappler (barbarogue, with boots of flying and later an eagle whistle) that liked to grapple, fly up, and then drop while maintaining the grapple. I've played him under many DMs in AL, and none ever saw an issue with it.

Of course, if a DM thought any of that didn't make sense, they could totally houserule something different.

You may be 100% right in respect to RAW. However, imo the grappling rules weren't intended to take flying grappling into full consideration. I think by omission, they allow for flying grappling and that certainly simplifies things, but it also feels clumsy to me. I think this situation presents an interesting case that deserves a bit more nuance. I think that carrying weight being identical whether you're flying (unless specified by a spell) or walking underscore this. It's simple, but intuitively makes no sense.

In the same respect, there aren't really rules for grappling a mount. If a horse is galloping full speed and an ogre jumps out, grappling it, does the rider fly off the front of the mount or stay on without a check? According to RAW, the rider and the mount's movement would cease. And I think that's the extent of it, anything else would be up to the interpretation of the DM. Again, that's simple, but it doesn't feel elegant.

[Spiritchaser]

Here’s another question: I’d initially presumed the fly spell would be proof against this. After all, it grants hover, you can remain in the air at 0 speed and even if you were knocked prone, you are supported and stay aloft.

But:

The grappling creature has decided to plummet.

You are supported by hover, BUT you are locked to that creature

Which wins out?

I’m still going with hover winning here, but I hardly think it’s clear or certain.

This might be a place for a weight or size limit...

[Tanarii]

Heh, I’m pretty sure no-one will make this argument based on common sense but... it wouldn’t hurt to add a note on this to my campaign rules and clarification sheet... just in case.

ThanksWhether or not it's common sense depends on what you think a 5e grapple is.

I look at it as a one-handed grab. So loosing your hold due to falling while they're still kinda supporting themselves with their wings might be an okay visualization of what's going on in this case.

OTOH, no, I'm not really suggesting it 'makes sense'. :smallbiggrin: I was really just pointing out an interaction that might happen by RAW. If one creature falls (whichever one has its turn first) and it is forced movement, pretty sure it would break the grab, rather than both of them descending on that creatures turn. Technically. And technically is the best kind of correct. But I'm not 100% that's the RAW outcome if falling is forced movement. I'm already putting more thought into this than I should care to. :smallwink:

[Coffee_Dragon]

Live by the RAW, die by the RAW... a grappler can move a grapplee using their movement (halved or not), but falling is not (that kind of) movement. If you are suspended from something and want to be falling, there is a way to accomplish this: let go.

(Also, technically Fly doesn't grant hover, it just allows you to count as hovering when your speed is reduced. This matters because it doesn't stop working in an anti-hover field.)

[Zene]

Forced movement alone doesn’t break a grapple; forced movement out of the grappler’s reach is required. So if they both fall at the same rate, the grapple is maintained.

That said, fly seems to be a special case; the Flying Movement section of the PHB specifically calls it out as holding someone aloft, even if their speed is reduced to 0. (Though interestingly, the spell itself says nothing like that.)

So if the grapplee is under the effect of a fly spell or a levitate spell, I suppose the grappler couldn’t just fall; they’d have to drag them downward using their own movement.

[Tanarii]

Forced movement alone doesn’t break a grapple; forced movement out of the grappler’s reach is required. So if they both fall at the same rate, the grapple is maintained. If one falls on its turn, and the other on its turn, that'd separate them.

(Of course it's supposed to be happening simultaneously, but I'm just exploring the craziness of doing it by turned based.)

[LeonBH]

Heh, I’m pretty sure no-one will make this argument based on common sense but... it wouldn’t hurt to add a note on this to my campaign rules and clarification sheet... just in case.

Thanks

Forced movement only breaks the grapple if it brings the target out of the grappler's reach.