Shadow of moil vs Darkness

[Master O'Laughs]

Is shadow of moil more useful for a warlock caster vs a pact of blade melee fighter?

I have seen it mentioned recently as a great use for warlock concentration, Darkness would give you advantage on attack rolls with devil sights and disadvantage to anyone targeting you. It also does not let anyone take AoO against you unless they as well have Devil's sight.

Shadow of Moil "heavily obscures" you immediate area but it seems it simply dampens light, not create magical darkness. At first read it seems as though as long as you have darkvision you will be able to see the warlock obscured by shadow of moil. It does have the added bonus though of reaction free damage to anyone who hits you.

Is a PAM GWM Hexblade better off sticking to Darkness or does Shadow of Moil provide some benefit I am not seeing at first?

[RSP]

Is shadow of moil more useful for a warlock caster vs a pact of blade melee fighter?

I have seen it mentioned recently as a great use for warlock concentration, Darkness would give you advantage on attack rolls with devil sights and disadvantage to anyone targeting you. It also does not let anyone take AoO against you unless they as well have Devil's sight.

Shadow of Moil "heavily obscures" you immediate area but it seems it simply dampens light, not create magical darkness. At first read it seems as though as long as you have darkvision you will be able to see the warlock obscured by shadow of moil. It does have the added bonus though of reaction free damage to anyone who hits you.

Is a PAM GWM Hexblade better off sticking to Darkness or does Shadow of Moil provide some benefit I am not seeing at first?

The spell states its provides heavy obscurement so I don't see a way around that with Darkvision or Devils Sight.

That provides the Advantage on attack rolls to hit others and Disadvantage to get hit, as well as not being targetable by sight. Add in the damage when hit and I'd say it's an upgrade over Darkness as a) you don't need Devils Sight to use it so that's a freed up invocation, b) provides resistance to Radiant and deals damage on a hit, and c) Warlocks don't need to worry about the difference in spell slot level.

[Master O'Laughs]

The spell states its provides heavy obscurement so I don't see a way around that with Darkvision or Devils Sight.

That provides the Advantage on attack rolls to hit others and Disadvantage to get hit, as well as not being targetable by sight. Add in the damage when hit and I'd say it's an upgrade over Darkness as a) you don't need Devils Sight to use it so that's a freed up invocation, b) provides resistance to Radiant and deals damage on a hit, and c) Warlocks don't need to worry about the difference in spell slot level.

Oh okay, I was a little confused by what being obscured did mechanically. Now is shadow of moil better for melee types rather than ranged types?

Am I correct in thinking the advantage to hit a target only applies if the target is in the obscured area? so say a tome or chain warlock could cast darkness on their familiar and use it to cover areas at range for advantage to attacks but if they used shadow of moil they would have to be up close and personal to get the advantage to attack rolls?

[Mikal]

The heavily obscured portion is separate from the dim light, and thus is not able to be seen through with Darkvision or Devil's Sight since it's not magical darkness, and the light level doesn't change for you, but around you.
Also, since it's not an illusion, Truesight can't see through it, nor can the See Invisibility spell. Essentially the only thing that can counter it is Tremorsense or Blindsight.


Oh okay, I was a little confused by what being obscured did mechanically. Now is shadow of moil better for melee types rather than ranged types?

Am I correct in thinking the advantage to hit a target only applies if the target is in the obscured area? so say a tome or chain warlock could cast darkness on their familiar and use it to cover areas at range for advantage to attacks but if they used shadow of moil they would have to be up close and personal to get the advantage to attack rolls?

They do not have to be within the 10 ft range for you to be heavily obscured, as it's not the dimmer light that obscures you, but the core of the spell which is separate from that.

From the PHB errata: "A heavily obscured area doesn't blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it"

As such, you are considered the heavily obscured area, so anyone trying to see you is effectively blinded.

Also, the obscuring comes from the shadows, not the darkness. Why is this important you ask? Because you don't automatically see through those types of shadows since they are shadowy flames, not shadow by itself. For example: Hunger of Hadar creates a similar effect of blackness vs. darkness, and cannot be seen through with either Darkvision or Devil's Sight.

[Master O'Laughs]

The heavily obscured portion is separate from the dim light, and thus is not able to be seen through with Darkvision or Devil's Sight since it's not magical darkness, and the light level doesn't change for you, but around you.
Also, since it's not an illusion, Truesight can't see through it, nor can the See Invisibility spell. Essentially the only thing that can counter it is Tremorsense or Blindsight.



They do not have to be within the 10 ft range for you to be heavily obscured, as it's not the dimmer light that obscures you, but the core of the spell which is separate from that.

From the PHB errata: "A heavily obscured area doesn't blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it"

As such, you are considered the heavily obscured area, so anyone trying to see you is effectively blinded.

Also, the obscuring comes from the shadows, not the darkness. Why is this important you ask? Because you don't automatically see through those types of shadows. For example: Hunger of Hadar creates a similar darkness effect, and cannot be seen through with either Darkvision or Devil's Sight.

So by being heavily obscured, you still retain advantage on attack rolls because anyone you target is effectively blinded to you and your actions?

If that is the case that spell is awesome!!!

[Mikal]

So by being heavily obscured, you still retain advantage on attack rolls because anyone you target is effectively blinded to you and your actions?

If that is the case that spell is awesome!!!

It's not as good as greater invisibility at actually hiding people, but yes. Essentially you're wreathed in these flame-like shadows that flit across you like you were a candle on a stormy night, obscuring you. Your opponent thinks he sees an opening and attacks, but it was really just one of the shadowy wisps, and the like.

Unless, again, they have blindsight or tremorsense and are in range to use it. Or they use an area effect spell.

[trctelles]

Is a PAM GWM Hexblade better off sticking to Darkness or does Shadow of Moil provide some benefit I am not seeing at first?

Shadows of Moil is Darkness on steroids. In does mostly the same thing (advantage on attacks, disadvantage to be attacked), can't be detected by the spells mentioned on the other replies, and does 2d8 necrotic damage IF you get hit by someone while using it. They just take the damage, no rolls involved.

So yeah, as soon as you can cast Shadows of Moil (at least as a Warlock), it's worth ditching Darkness, since you would spend a 4th lvl spell slot to use darkness anyway.

Also, by RAW, you won't need Devil Sight, freeing an invocation. Shadows of Moil say "(...)causing you to become heavily obscured to others. ".

[Mikal]

Also, by RAW, you won't need Devil Sight, freeing an invocation. Shadows of Moil say "(...)causing you to become heavily obscured to others. ".

I'd still keep it if you're a non Darkvision race, but yeah, if you're not one of those, Devil's Sight really isn't needed unless you're fighting a lot of Darkness casting enemies.

Plus, it's fun to combo Shadow of Moil with Armor of Agathys if you expect to get whacked in melee, or Hellish Rebuke.

Sure you essentially give up your chance for a Eldritch Smite until you get your third spell slot, but there's something fun about saying "take 2d6 necrotic and 20+ (since you're casting at least level 4 slots) cold damage" or "take 2d6 necrotic and 5d10+ fire damage unless you make a dex save" when something hits you.

[Aett_Thorn]

Plus, it's fun to combo Shadow of Moil with Armor of Agathys if you expect to get whacked in melee, or Hellish Rebuke.



Go all in! Cast Fire Shield, AoA, and then Shadow of Moil. Only Shadow of Moil is concentration.

"Oh, the enemy monk hit me four times? Well let me tell you something..."

[Master O'Laughs]

Yeah, If you are Human, Devil's sight would still be worth it to obtain Darkvision. Plus if any bad guy tries to use Darkness against you it is immediately countered.

[Mikal]

Go all in! Cast Fire Shield, AoA, and then Shadow of Moil. Only Shadow of Moil is concentration.

"Oh, the enemy monk hit me four times? Well let me tell you something..."

Well yeah, once you hit 11th level.
Then you're rocking 25 cold, 6d10 fire (save for half), and 2d10 necrotic on that first hit they land!

So... maybe not the monk with their evasion. But that fighter won't be happy. Or almost any monster who lands a hit.

Edit: I know you said Fire Shield, but most Warlock's won't have access to that unless they go Fiend, so I used Hellish Rebuke in mine.

Amusingly, I think Fire Shield and Shadow of Moil might cancel their visibility effects (but not the obscurement) since one sheds bright and dim light, and the other dim's normal and dim light.

[Aett_Thorn]

Well yeah, once you hit 11th level.
Then you're rocking 25 cold, 6d10 fire (save for half), and 2d10 necrotic on that first hit they land!

So... maybe not the monk with their evasion. But that fighter won't be happy. Or almost any monster who lands a hit.

Edit: I know you said Fire Shield, but most Warlock's won't have access to that unless they go Fiend, so I used Hellish Rebuke in mine.

Amusingly, I think Fire Shield and Shadow of Moil might cancel their visibility effects (but not the obscurement) since one sheds bright and dim light, and the other dim's normal and dim light.

Well, Fire Shield and Shadow of Moil do their damage on every hit, and so would AoA until it ran out. But yes, if you were say a Tiefling Warlock with AoA, Fire Shield, and SoM up, you could do 25+2d8+2d8+3d10 on the first hit, 25+2d8+2d8 until AoA ran out, and then just 4d8 per hit after that.

[Mikal]

Well, Fire Shield and Shadow of Moil do their damage on every hit, and so would AoA until it ran out. But yes, if you were say a Tiefling Warlock with AoA, Fire Shield, and SoM up, you could do 25+2d8+2d8+3d10 on the first hit, 25+2d8+2d8 until AoA ran out, and then just 4d8 per hit after that.

Yeah, if you were to go fiend.
Of course, if you want to really have ramp up the whole retribution thing, you could go Celestial Warlock/Draconic Sorcerer (silver/white) and use your Sorc slots and warlock slots willy nilly for extra fun, while giving +cha to your fire damage rolls and to your passive cold damage from AoA.

Of course, any smart enemy who sees this walking sphere of Shadowy/Flaming/Ice-encrusted magical power walking towards them will probably break out the bow and arrows.

[Sception]

shadow of moil also causes less trouble for your party, as you don't have to worry about ducking in and out of melee to avoid obscuring your enemies. It's not a major problem with darkness, but it's nice not to worry about it.

[MrBig]

Yeah, If you are Human, Devil's sight would still be worth it to obtain Darkvision. Plus if any bad guy tries to use Darkness against you it is immediately countered.

Note that Devil's Sight doesn't help you, at all, in *dim* light. Only complete darkness.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/18/devils-sight-vision/

Of course, many tables will handwave away the distinction, but it's not RAI, apparently.

[Master O'Laughs]

Note that Devil's Sight doesn't help you, at all, in *dim* light. Only complete darkness.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/18/devils-sight-vision/

Of course, many tables will handwave away the distinction, but it's not RAI, apparently.

Interesting, but yeah, I was thinking as a human it would be most beneficial to because you can actually see in darkness then and see through enemies magical darkness.

What penalty is dim light supposed to impose (AFB currently) anyways? (Also, obvious my table hand waves some of this but I like knowing the rules)

[Sception]

Dim light imposes disadvantage on sight-based Wisdom(perception) checks.

[Master O'Laughs]

Dim light imposes disadvantage on sight-based Wisdom(perception) checks.

Really interesting, I will have to mention this at my next game in case the DM just doesn't realize this. Would that also carry over races with darkvision in complete darkness?

Also, since I am getting more and mroe hype to play a PAM Hexblade, what are the advantages and disadvantages of a PAM hexblade vs other PAM classes?

@ lvl 12 with 20 CHA, a PAM hexblade is doing at least 26 vs their cursed target (Life drinker, GWM, improved pact weapon) per hit

a Fighter is doing 16 damage per hit but has 1 additional attack

a Paladin has 16 damage per hit but can also smite

I see the hexblade as having a magic weapon no matter what the campaign and has nice defenses with shadow of moil spell up.

Thoughts?

[Vaz]

The black flame like Shadows are expressly darkness, and magical. Something Devil's Sight allows you to see through. I can see how people would read against it, hower, and so it is up to your DM.

[MrBig]

Really interesting, I will have to mention this at my next game in case the DM just doesn't realize this. Would that also carry over races with darkvision in complete darkness?


Yes.

So, a human fighter, a elven wizard, and a human warlock (with Devil's Sight), walk into a bar ...

It's poorly lit, with only a single lantern on the far wall, and it's late at night.

Dim Lighting:
The human fighter has disadvantage on perception checks.
The elven wizard can see normally.
The human warlock has disadvantage on perception checks.

A fight breaks out, and the lamp is smashed and goes out. The room is in (non-magical) darkness.

The human fighter is blinded.
The elven wizard has disadvantage on perception checks.
The human warlock can see normally.

One of the bar patrons is a wizard, and he casts the Darkness spell.

The human fighter is blinded.
The elven wizard is blinded.
The human warlock can see normally.

So yeah, if a party of characters, all with darkvision, go into a cave without a light - everyone should be making perception checks at disadvantage.

[Sception]

pretty much, but note that that the low light penalty applies to vision based perception checks only. There's no penalty to hear someone moving, listen in on a conversation, or to detect the hidden presence of Blightbottom, the infamously stinky goblin assassin (it's said that one in three of his victims are dead before he so much as draws his blade), etc.

[Mikal]

Strengths of a PAM hexblade- easy to get advantage that recharge on a short rest. Some small buff spells. A stronger if more limited smite over a paladin. The ability to add your attack stat twice to damage, and use the same stat for a very good ranged option. And perhaps most importantly, able to use the elven advantage feat in conjunction with GWM.

Disadvantages- slightly smaller ac, slightly smaller hp, less attacks (vs fighter), slower to come online (vs fighter), no action surge.

Of course if your game goes on past level 12, you can always start taking fighter.

One build I'm considering is a hexblade 12/battlemaster 4/blade 4.

Good warlock casting, some bard casting, action surge, and the maneuvers and blade flourishes can be used at the same time, with the maneuverers recharging on short rests along with the warlock slots.

[Zalabim]

You might notice a difference with things like the spell's duration. You can hold a Darkness'd inside an opaque covering to conceal it and the spell lasts 10 minutes, meaning it's much easier to prepare it before a fight and carry it around more subtly. With most 1 minute duration spells you're limited to casting it immediately before starting a fight (after scouting) or during a fight (costing valuable time.)


The black flame like Shadows are expressly darkness, and magical. Something Devil's Sight allows you to see through. I can see how people would read against it, hower, and so it is up to your DM.

The flame-like shadows are never explicitly called black (insert pun here), and are also not expressly darkness. They're just shadows, for short. You are heavily obscured by the shadows. The shadows make the area nearby darker, but the darkness they can cause is just normal, everyday darkness. It's not Magical Darkness (like Darkness). The spell uses clear mechanical terms quite explicitly. It should be impossible to misunderstand the spell once you've read the whole thing.

[Vaz]

Devil's Sight can see in Darkness, Magical or otherwise. Shadows are darkness. Darkness is Heavily Obscured. If it didn't describe them as Flame Like Shadows, then sure, but it does.

But yeah, I'm not arguing any more than Magical Shadows can be seen through normally thanks to devil's sight, so the cause for Obscurement isn't relevant. Up to you.

[Mikal]

Devil's Sight can see in Darkness, Magical or otherwise. Shadows are darkness. Darkness is Heavily Obscured. If it didn't describe them as Flame Like Shadows, then sure, but it does.

But yeah, I'm not arguing any more than Magical Shadows can be seen through normally thanks to devil's sight, so the cause for Obscurement isn't relevant. Up to you.

Except that you can't see through hunger of hadar even though it too is magical and dark.

Unless it specifically says darkness or magical darkness (according to JC anyway) devils sight is useless. And shadow of moils obscurant ability isn't from magical darkness.

[Mortis_Elrod]

From a melee hexblade perspective this spell is good for when you wade into multiple enemies. For the final touch for the combo you would put on Mirror Image.


Shadow of Moil + AOA+ Mirror Image.

But yeah I would use shadow of moil if facing more than 2 enemies by myself. Smiting is better on single targets than on mobs so I think it’s a very good spell for melee.

It’s probably good on a caster for similar reasons if for some reason they get swarmed.

[Vaz]

Except that you can't see through hunger of hadar even though it too is magical and dark.

Unless it specifically says darkness or magical darkness (according to JC anyway) devils sight is useless. And shadow of moils obscurant ability isn't from magical darkness.

Without JC's input, I'd have said that yes, DS could see through it. And this is the same numpty who has given us the Rakshasa ruling, and the one that prevents an Eldritch blast from being used against Objects such as a Mountain, or the Ground, but can hit an invisible creature a quarter mile away.

My game is often better without JC's input, and I've made no pretense that it is RAW, but rather that RACSD that being able to see through magical absense of light lets you see through magical absense of light.

[ad_hoc]

Devil's Sight can't see through fire or fog.

The shadows are specifically called out as being 'flame-like'. They aren't just absence of light.

[RSP]

Devil's Sight can see in Darkness, Magical or otherwise. Shadows are darkness. Darkness is Heavily Obscured. If it didn't describe them as Flame Like Shadows, then sure, but it does.

But yeah, I'm not arguing any more than Magical Shadows can be seen through normally thanks to devil's sight, so the cause for Obscurement isn't relevant. Up to you.

So then, by your ruling is a Shadow Blade effectively invisible to anyone with Devils Sight? It, too, states shadows as its material:

"You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword"

Likewise with Illusory Dragon:

"By gathering threads of shadow material from the Shadowfell, you create a Huge shadowy dragon in an unoccupied space that you can see within range."

Just curious if you consider all mentions of shadow consistently to mean "darkness."

[Vaz]

Yeah, **** it, why not, because it'll amuse me.

[RSP]

Yeah, **** it, why not, because it'll amuse me.

That's one way to curtail Devils Sight, particularly if the party travels to the Shadowfell.