Armored wizard

[jedikiller]

Should i do a sorcerer (stalwart sorcerer) with 1 level of fighter(armored mage)? Or a wizard with one level of fighter(armored mage)? I don't want to use the spellsword prestige though.

[Venger]

Should i do a sorcerer (stalwart sorcerer) with 1 level of fighter(armored mage)? Or a wizard with one level of fighter(armored mage)? I don't want to use the spellsword prestige though.

neither of those are advisable ideas. never lose caster levels. you might play one of the prixe fixe casters (beguiler, dread necromancer, or warmage) who have the ability to wear and cast in light armor built into the class, or you could just use mage armor, which is what the spell exists for.

[AnimeTheCat]

There is a Sorcerer Alternate Class Feature that grants you Light Armor Casting.

Also, I would advise agains armored mage, you have to keep leveling in fighter to make it worthwhile for the higher level spells due to the line that says "this benefit only applies to spells of a level equal to or lower than your fighter level +1" so you would need to take 8 levels of fighter to be able to cast 9th level spells, but you can't get 9th level spells with that build so... The best you can do is Fighter 6/Wizard(or sorcerer) 14 to be able to cast all of your spells in light armor.

Also Armored Mage only give you light armor, not medium or heavy.

[Venger]

There is a Sorcerer Alternate Class Feature that grants you Light Armor Casting.

Also, I would advise agains armored mage, you have to keep leveling in fighter to make it worthwhile for the higher level spells due to the line that says "this benefit only applies to spells of a level equal to or lower than your fighter level +1" so you would need to take 8 levels of fighter to be able to cast 9th level spells, but you can't get 9th level spells with that build so... The best you can do is Fighter 6/Wizard(or sorcerer) 14 to be able to cast all of your spells in light armor.

Also Armored Mage only give you light armor, not medium or heavy.

right, but it costs you spells, so is a bad trade.

[daremetoidareyo]

right, but it costs you spells, so is a bad trade.

you can replace the lost spells with a bloodline feat from dragon compendium. But you're locked into specific spell choices. Earth bloodline is probably the best, but you'll have to get some other way to get flight.

[Deophaun]

The question is: are you doing this because you want to be a magic-using tin-can, or are you doing this to try to boost your AC? These are two different things as wearing armor is only for people that don't actually care about optimizing AC.

[heavyfuel]

Take the Still Spell feat and eat the metamagic cost (this handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=972.0) might help)

Be a dwarf and go Runesmith (Races of Stone, p 118)

[ViperMagnum357]

Wear a Mithral Chain Shirt with the Twlight enhancement from BOED-that gives you 0% Arcane Spell Failure. There are other mods to reduce to ACP to 0 if you don't have proficiency.

[Gnaeus]

Take the Still Spell feat and eat the metamagic cost (this handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=972.0) might help)

Be a dwarf and go Runesmith (Races of Stone, p 118)

Or sudden still and then memorize mostly spells with no somatic components or long durations. I played a dwarf wizard who did that in a low op game once. It’s not forum worthy but I still consistently outclassed the monk and the swashbuckler.

[Anthrowhale]

Be a Sha'ir, take alternate source spell, and take a level of Dragonslayer, Harper Priest, or Prestige Paladin for the armor proficiencies.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Armour hurts spellcasters in two ways: arcane spell failure chance and armour check penalty. If you can get both to 0, you can wear even heavy armour without penalty to your spellcasting.

An example is +1 twilight nimbleness feycraft githcraft reinforced segmented caster armour mithral sectioned armour, which costs 24600 gp, and will give you headaches if you try to actually get some*. It counts as medium armour, and has the following stats: +9 armour bonus (plus the +1 enhancement, total +10), +5 maximum dexterity bonus, -0 armour check penalty, and 0% arcane spell failure chance. You can make it halfweight to lose the speed penalty, as well.


*It must be crafted by a fey-charmed gith, with a DC ~50 Craft check (just guessing, didn't do the math).

[Thurbane]

Urban Savant PrC (Cty) or 1 level of Spellthief (CAd) + Master Spellthief (CM) feat allow any arcanist to wear light armor with no ASF. The Battle Caster feat (CAr) will bump this up to medium.

---or---

The Halfweight armor ability (Und) makes any armor count as light.

[ShurikVch]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22526475&postcount=15) post lists numerous Sorcerer & Wizard spells, and all of them are without somatic components :smallwink:

[Thurbane]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22526475&postcount=15) post lists numerous Sorcerer & Wizard spells, and all of them are without somatic components :smallwink:

That's handy! Bookmarked.

[Fizban]

Should i do a sorcerer (stalwart sorcerer) with 1 level of fighter(armored mage)? Or a wizard with one level of fighter(armored mage)? I don't want to use the spellsword prestige though.

If you're interested in sorcerer spells with light armor, try asking your DM if you can use the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant from Unearthed Arcana. It costs you more spells than Stalwart Sorcerer, but gives you the same hit points (d4+2 is the same average at d8), with 3/4 BAB and light armor. You'll generally have much better spellcasting and BAB than trying to combine Stalwart and Armored Mage.

The limitations on Armored mage are pretty hard, you have to pay about 1/3 of your levels in Fighter to keep them updated. It's fine at low levels, but eventually you'll start to feel it. If you only take one level of fighter or just the proficiency feat, and then use Still Spell on every spell you cast, you'll only be two levels behind.

Finally, as has been noted, if you can pick your magic items then Mithril Shirt has zero armor check penalty, and giving it the Twilight ability will leave it with zero spell failure chance. This is the simplest option, but as you're probably aware, it's not a mage who can wear armor- it's just a mage who happens to own armor that doesn't inconvenience mages.

[animewatcha]

Was improved mage armor updated in the migration to 3.5?

[Venger]

Was improved mage armor updated in the migration to 3.5?

yes. it's exactly like mage armor but it's +6 instead, so it's not unusable trash like unapproachable east's version.

[Andezzar]

Wear a Mithral Chain Shirt with the Twlight enhancement from BOED-that gives you 0% Arcane Spell Failure. There are other mods to reduce to ACP to 0 if you don't have proficiency.No need for proficiency. The penalty for wearing armor you are not proficient with is
A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields.
With 0 ACP....
Twilight Mithral chain shirts for everyone!
Unless you really want to have a physical suit of armor and or do not want to play a good character I suggest you look at the Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor spells and an Eternal Wand of Lesser Restoration (yes it is an arcane spell for a Knight of the Weave). +5/+8 armour bonus, Light as daylight spell, no penalties, -4 to enemies attacking in melee.

[tiercel]

Could also choose a base class that gets armored casting, if you don’t mind the “lesser” flavored casters and/or stacking PrCs onto them (e.g. Warmage into Sand Shaper or other spell-gaining PrCs; Bard into Sublime Chord, with associated other PrC shenanigans).

A question to ask is “why do i want armor on my wizard/similar arcane caster?” If it’s just for AC, then folks have mentioned how There Are Spells For That; if you just want some AC and have an armor slot (for armor special qualities and augment crystals) then there are the mithral twilight kitchen sink combos that have been mentioned; if you want to gish, there are plenty of builds for that too. If you just want to be an awesomesauce clanky armored mage, yeah dwarf-> Runesmith, or, you know, especially with the right tweaking, just Cleric.

[ATHATH]

The (Greater) Luminous Armor spell is also a thing.

[animewatcha]

yes. it's exactly like mage armor but it's +6 instead, so it's not unusable trash like unapproachable east's version.

I know about greater mage armor. I mean has it been updated officially like I think Spell Compendium did to a bunch of spell's naming at beginning of book. I might have the wrong book name.

[Venger]

I know about greater mage armor. I mean has it been updated officially like I think Spell Compendium did to a bunch of spell's naming at beginning of book. I might have the wrong book name.

when you asked if it was updated, I assumed you wanted to know what the current version did. yes, it was updated in the spell compendium.

[animewatcha]

Looked under improved and 'greater' mage armor. Could not find Improved and greater mage armor doesn't make a reference to it. Which means that at a high enough caster level, improved mage armor can allow for higher ac bonus than greater mage armor. Even more with Reserves of strength.

[Andezzar]

The (Greater) Luminous Armor spell is also a thing.Swordsaged by almost a day (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22670177&postcount=18).


Looked under improved and 'greater' mage armor. Could not find Improved and greater mage armor doesn't make a reference to it. Which means that at a high enough caster level, improved mage armor can allow for higher ac bonus than greater mage armor. Even more with Reserves of strength.I concur. PGtF explicitly states that Unapproachable East is compatible with 3.5 except for the regional feats. And since Improved Mage Armor obviously is a different spell than Greater Mage Armor, both exist in 3.5, by strict reading in the Forgotten Realms.

[A.A.King]

My favourite way to make an Armoured Wizard is :

Wizard 5 / Knight Phantom 1

Take the "Militia" Regional feat from PgtF to get proficiency with all Martial Weapons so that you can qualify for Knight Phantom at level 6 without dipping. Knight Phantom gives you the ability to cast in Light Armour which you then immediately improve by also taking the "Battle Caster" feat from CA which allows you to cast in Medium Armour (provided you were already able to cast in Light Armour). Finally, you learn the "Golden Dragonmail" spell from Champions of Valor which creates for you a +1 Mithrall Fullplate. Mithral Full-plate counts as Medium Armour so thanks to Knight Phantom + Battle Caster you can cast in it without suffering from Spell Failure while the spell itself specifically gives you proficiency with the created Armour so you get to play a Wizard in Full Plate by the time you reach level 6 while only losing one caster level (and if you proceed with Knight Phantom and then enter Abjurant Champion you reach Caster Level 19 and BAB 17)

The only problem is that you mix material from two different regions which some people frown upon.

[Red Fel]

Be a dwarf and go Runesmith (Races of Stone, p 118)

Seconding Runesmith if possible. Fact is, if you want to go with heavy armor, Dwarves already have an advantage - their (admittedly lower) move speed is unaffected by armor. The class itself is incredibly good - it's a short PrC (only 5 levels) with full caster progression, so you lose out on nothing. If you're a dwarf, the prereqs are practically freebies except for Heavy Armor proficiency. The class is all benefit and no cost after that - casting from a Rune is identical to casting normally, except that it removes the somatic component (and by extension, arcane spell failure) without raising the spell level. The class also lets you convert a spell slot into an SLA, which is gravy and sets up all kinds of fun shenanigans, and actually gives you the ability to "share" your spells, letting an ally cast them on your behalf - again, fun shenanigans.

If you're going for "ignores arcane spell failure" or "wizard in a tin can," this really is an incredible option, at shockingly low cost.

[Crake]

Githcraft, mithril, feycraft sectioned plate with thistledown padding with the nimble, twilight and halfweight enchantments has -1 ACP, 0 ASF, +8 armor before enhancement, +4 max dex, and is treated as light armor, weighing a mere 15lb. You can get a +1 version of this marvel for under 50k (a +6 armor for 36k, mithril for 9k, plus the other knicknacks).

With -1 ACP, you do need to pick up light armor proficiency to avoid the -1 to attack rolls, unless you can convince your DM to allow the comfort armor enhancement from pathfinder, which reduces that to 0, in which case you can literally put that armor on without any prior training, be completely unimpeded, grab a nice chunk of armor, all without any character resource investments, and only minor wealth by level investments.

[Andezzar]

The only problem is that you mix material from two different regions which some people frown upon.Especially if LA buy off is allowed at your table, take an outsider. They are already proficient with all martial weapons. No need for the militia feat.

[Fizban]

So, what's the deal with the new fascination with Sectioned Armor?

I assume it's so one can pretend the armor is light in order to qualify for the Feycraft template in order to stack it with the Githcraft template and remove the last 5%, after someone noticed there's no rule specifically prohibiting the stacking of those item templates. 'Cause otherwise there's no reason you couldn't just do that with full plate.

It's also completely ridiculous of course. Sectioned Armor is explicitly masterwork full plate right there in the description, with the special ability to reduce armor category. The only time it's light armor is when it's light armor, which does not have +8 armor bonus. And why not just claim that the mithril reduction applies first to get it to medium?

And yeah, 50,000gp as a minor investment. That's the entire WBL of a 10th level character, 1/4 the WBL of a 15th level character, for +8 AC, compared to +4 Twilight Mithral Shirt for 26,000 gp, or +4 Githcraft Mithral Shirt with the Thistledown for 17,000gp, neither requiring any dubious rulings. And with +6 in extras the pile of everything has a maximum enhancement of +4, so it's actually max +12 AC. A Breastplate version would have +2-3 more bonus capacity (depending on dubious rulings), max AC of 10 (with +6 max dex), and 5,000gp less base cost. But sure, if you only make 15th+ level builds that can't afford to actually learn to use armor, it's pretty minor.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to do this from a low level, play a Warforged Psion with Adamantine Body.

If you want to do this from 6th+ level, make a Dwarf Wizard and take Runesmith.

You're almost always better off casting (Greater) Luminous Armor or similar instead of investing levels/feats/class features into being able to wear armor without it hindering your spellcasting.

[Crake]

So, what's the deal with the new fascination with Sectioned Armor?

I assume it's so one can pretend the armor is light in order to qualify for the Feycraft template in order to stack it with the Githcraft template and remove the last 5%, after someone noticed there's no rule specifically prohibiting the stacking of those item templates. 'Cause otherwise there's no reason you couldn't just do that with full plate.

It's also completely ridiculous of course. Sectioned Armor is explicitly masterwork full plate right there in the description, with the special ability to reduce armor category. The only time it's light armor is when it's light armor, which does not have +8 armor bonus. And why not just claim that the mithril reduction applies first to get it to medium?

And yeah, 50,000gp as a minor investment. That's the entire WBL of a 10th level character, 1/4 the WBL of a 15th level character, for +8 AC, compared to +4 Twilight Mithral Shirt for 26,000 gp, or +4 Githcraft Mithral Shirt with the Thistledown for 17,000gp, neither requiring any dubious rulings. And with +6 in extras the pile of everything has a maximum enhancement of +4, so it's actually max +12 AC. A Breastplate version would have +2-3 more bonus capacity (depending on dubious rulings), max AC of 10 (with +6 max dex), and 5,000gp less base cost. But sure, if you only make 15th+ level builds that can't afford to actually learn to use armor, it's pretty minor.

The light armor benefit comes from the halfweight enchantment, which makes the armor weigh half and be treated as light armor for all purposes. The mithril is just to reduce the ACP by 3. And that's for a +1 armor, so it's +9 AC, which is the cap for a +5 chain shirt, and would cost 37k. The benefit is expandability, because you can go up beyond +1 if you want. Plus, some people just like the image of a mage wearing heavy armor. All that said, you can actually drop the halfweight enchantment and significantly reduce the cost of the armor, all that really does is stop you from moving a bit slower. That alone would drop the cost to sub 20k for +9AC.

[Fizban]

The light armor benefit comes from the halfweight enchantment,
Yes, I know about halfweight, it's pretty cool.

And that's for a +1 armor, so it's +9 AC, which is the cap for a +5 chain shirt, and would cost 37k.
Got me there, forgot about the minimum.

All that said, you can actually drop the halfweight enchantment and significantly reduce the cost of the armor, all that really does is stop you from moving a bit slower. That alone would drop the cost to sub 20k for +9AC.
But why the sudden fascination with sectioned armor instead of full plate for no benefit? And when did people start doubling up on githcraft and feycraft? That's the part that confuses me: the latter is standard rules lawyery "it doesn't say I can't," but the extra cost of sectioned armor is just extra cost when you're already using magic to make it light all the time.

[Crake]

Yes, I know about halfweight, it's pretty cool.

Got me there, forgot about the minimum.

But why the sudden fascination with sectioned armor instead of full plate for no benefit? And when did people start doubling up on githcraft and feycraft? That's the part that confuses me: the latter is standard rules lawyery "it doesn't say I can't," but the extra cost of sectioned armor is just extra cost when you're already using magic to make it light all the time.

Because sectioned armor comes with a -5 ACP, you cannot have sectioned armor with a -6 ACP due to lack of masterwork-ness, since the masterwork-ness is built in, so adding mithril to it drops it by 3 to -2, wheras mithril fullplate has a -3 ACP. In that sense it's better than fullplate, because you can effectively stack the masterwork ACP reduction and the mithril masterwork reduction. With that, and nimble, you can get the ACP to 0 if you don't care about ASF. If ASF is a problem though, you need thistledown padding, or spellsword's -10% ASF reduction (which also means you can drop either gith or feycraft as well), but the thistledown padding ups the ACP to -1 again, hence the need for the comfort enchantment from pathfinder, if your DM allows it.

[Mordaedil]

I think I'd rather grab the Heavy Armor Optimization feats and get extra AC on top of reducing ACP.

[Crake]

I think I'd rather grab the Heavy Armor Optimization feats and get extra AC on top of reducing ACP.

Problem with that is that's a bunch of character resources, not only do you need to get heavy armor proficiency somehow, but then you also need to get that feat. Plus, neither halfweight nor mithril armor count as heavy armor, so you wouldn't get the bonuses from that anyway.

[Mordaedil]

Problem with that is that's a bunch of character resources, not only do you need to get heavy armor proficiency somehow, but then you also need to get that feat. Plus, neither halfweight nor mithril armor count as heavy armor, so you wouldn't get the bonuses from that anyway.

Ah, but you apply it to a class of armor, so you just name fullplate and then it applies to fullplate mithril armor just fine.

You are still right on the character resources part, but I still think AC + a bit extra is decent tradeoff for a feat.

[Crake]

Ah, but you apply it to a class of armor, so you just name fullplate and then it applies to fullplate mithril armor just fine.

You are still right on the character resources part, but I still think AC + a bit extra is decent tradeoff for a feat.

From what I see, it doesn't apply to a class of armor:


When you are wearing heavy armor, lessen the armor check penalty of the armor by 1 and increase the armor bonus by 1.

[Mordaedil]

I must have mixed it up with Armor Specialization. Sorry about that.

[ShurikVch]

Armor made of Blue Ice doesn't inflict ASF for [cold] spells; thus, Energy Substitution, Snowcasting, and Death Frost Spell...

Power Armor from Return to the Temple of the Frog (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20070223a) is AC 10, ASF 0%, doesn't required any armor proficiencies, and costs 9000 gp (power pack lasts up to 4 months)

[Deophaun]

In that sense it's better than fullplate, because you can effectively stack the masterwork ACP reduction and the mithril masterwork reduction.
I don't think it works that way. The description for mitral says they are always masterwork items as well, which means there are really two ways to interpret it. The first is that the masterwork reduction is already factored into mithral's stats, so there is no stacking with other masterwork reductions. The second is that the reduction is not factored in, so masterwork mithral armors should be getting an additional reduction beyond what the description says. The armor tables support the former, but trying to stack the sectioned plate demands the latter. And if you're going by the latter, sectioned plate ceases to be the best anyway.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't think it works that way. The description for mitral says they are always masterwork items as well, which means there are really two ways to interpret it. The first is that the masterwork reduction is already factored into mithral's stats, so there is no stacking with other masterwork reductions. The second is that the reduction is not factored in, so masterwork mithral armors should be getting an additional reduction beyond what the description says. The armor tables support the former, but trying to stack the sectioned plate demands the latter. And if you're going by the latter, sectioned plate ceases to be the best anyway.
There's a third option, where masterwork isn't factored into mithral's adjustments, but simply doesn't stack with them. That's the one that allows mithral sectioned plate to have -2 ACP.

[Deophaun]

There's a third option, where masterwork isn't factored into mithral's adjustments, but simply doesn't stack with them. That's the one that allows mithral sectioned plate to have -2 ACP.
But you would need something that says it doesn't stack, and such a thing does not exist.

It's at best a very strange interpretation that only exists for the purpose of buffing sectioned plate and only sectioned plate. I don't see the sense of it: if you're going to cheese, then cheese. Don't half ass it.

[Crake]

But you would need something that says it doesn't stack, and such a thing does not exist.

It's at best a very strange interpretation that only exists for the purpose of buffing sectioned plate and only sectioned plate. I don't see the sense of it: if you're going to cheese, then cheese. Don't half ass it.

Think about it this way: You can't have sectioned fullplate that has -6 ACP. It's ACP is -5. That's just the ACP of the armor. You can't reduce that by making it masterwork, since it's already masterwork, but at the same time, you can't remove masterwork from it for it to be -6. Since it's innate ACP is -5, when you add mithril it becomes -2, because whether the ACP reduction is built into mithril or not, or whether it stacks or not doesn't matter, since the armor doesn't have an ACP of 6, which is being reduced to 5 due to masterwork, it has an acp of 5, which cannot be reduced by adding masterwork (since it's already masterwork) but it CAN be reduced by adding mithril, which has a flat reduction of 3, resulting in -2.

God that's a messy sentence, but hopefully you get the gist.

[Deophaun]

but it CAN be reduced by adding mithril, which has a flat reduction of 3, resulting in.
This is the problem, because if mithral is a flat reduction of 3, then all mithral armor should have a reduction of 4; 3 from mithral, 1 from masterwork. If it's not a flat 3, and is in fact 2 plus masterwork, then adding it to sectioned plate only results in an additional reduction of 2, not 3.

I don't see how sectioned plate is special.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another way to get armor on a wizard is to take a single level of spellthief and the master spellthief feat. It lowers the wizard spell progression to a sorcerer progressing, but you maintain your cl and can deny spells to targets you sneak attack. Items can get you to 3d6 sneak attack pretty easy omce you have the first die, and something like inseen seer can allow you to strip the top few spell levels off any spellcaster you can sneak attack.

[Fizban]

God that's a messy sentence, but hopefully you get the gist.
I get the idea- it's bogus, but easy enough to follow. It relies on the idea that sectioned armor is Sectioned Armor with Table Stats, rather than reading the entry and finding that it is simply Masterwork Full Plate with a special ability (and if need be, shouting Text Trumps Table). But its not: it's masterwork full plate, and Mithril Sectioned Armor is just Mithril Full Plate with a special ability, so the ACP is -3.

And no, that's not working from the perspective of "I hate this RAW garbage," it's "Hey what does this actually say?" Double stacking gith and fey is the worse exploit, and I'm not claiming there's anything that says you can't do it aside from the DM. But this Sectioned Armor hack isn't. Thanks for explaining it though, my curiosity is satisfied.

[jedikiller]

neither of those are advisable ideas. never lose caster levels. you might play one of the prixe fixe casters (beguiler, dread necromancer, or warmage) who have the ability to wear and cast in light armor built into the class, or you could just use mage armor, which is what the spell exists for.I think mage armor is a poor alternative to real armor, but the caster levels aren't too important to me when i care about HP and AC.

[jedikiller]

There is a Sorcerer Alternate Class Feature that grants you Light Armor Casting.

Also, I would advise agains armored mage, you have to keep leveling in fighter to make it worthwhile for the higher level spells due to the line that says "this benefit only applies to spells of a level equal to or lower than your fighter level +1" so you would need to take 8 levels of fighter to be able to cast 9th level spells, but you can't get 9th level spells with that build so... The best you can do is Fighter 6/Wizard(or sorcerer) 14 to be able to cast all of your spells in light armor.

Also Armored Mage only give you light armor, not medium or heavy.

I didn't see that in the book. But if I take the battlecaster feat it allows me to wear a tier higher of armor so I could wear medium instead of light armor. But I also was considering Wizard instead of sorcerer but if you could tell me the class feature that would be very helpful

[tyckspoon]

I didn't see that in the book. But if I take the battlecaster feat it allows me to wear a tier higher of armor so I could wear medium instead of light armor. But I also was considering Wizard instead of sorcerer but if you could tell me the class feature that would be very helpful

Unearthed Arcana variant Battle Sorcerer. Gives up a spell per day and a spell known from all spell levels, which is pretty painful, but if you were willing to devote multiple levels and/or feats into the Fighter ACF to do the thing anyways it might be acceptable. Gives casting in Light armor, medium BAB, d8 hit die, and proficiency with a martial weapon. Biggest downside is probably that you lose most of the benefits if you prestige out (since things like BAB, HD size, and proficiency are over-ridden by those of the prestige class) while still suffering the penalties, because those are still derived from the Sorcerer's chart - so if you go for caster-centric prestige classes you'll go back to the poor BAB progression and small HD, and if you go for gish-style classes you'll wind up with something that looks a lot like if you'd just done a traditional multiclass to get into it anyway, only you'll have worse casting capability because of what you gave up for the ACF.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another thing to look into is prestige bars from unearthed arcana. 8 ranks in preform is the biggest prereq, and you lose a spellcaster level in the dip, but you can cast any arcane spells in light armor after dipping. You will, on the other hand cast illusion, enchantment, and divinations at +2 cl. Practical spellcaster removes the penalty to necromancy and evocation and adds back in the cl lost to bard.

You also get access to bard spells like glibness and other goodies.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Double stacking gith and fey is the worse exploit
You realize that stacking githcraft and feycraft is completely straightforward, right? There's no exploit here, only a specific set of circumstances you have to meet to craft such an item. It's pretty annoying when you bring this personal bias into things that aren't in the least bit unclear or controversial.

[jedikiller]

Githcraft, mithril, feycraft sectioned plate with thistledown padding with the nimble, twilight and halfweight enchantments has -1 ACP, 0 ASF, +8 armor before enhancement, +4 max dex, and is treated as light armor, weighing a mere 15lb. You can get a +1 version of this marvel for under 50k (a +6 armor for 36k, mithril for 9k, plus the other knicknacks).

With -1 ACP, you do need to pick up light armor proficiency to avoid the -1 to attack rolls, unless you can convince your DM to allow the comfort armor enhancement from pathfinder, which reduces that to 0, in which case you can literally put that armor on without any prior training, be completely unimpeded, grab a nice chunk of armor, all without any character resource investments, and only minor wealth by level investments.
Can you tell me what book this comes from?

[ATHATH]

Another thing to look into is prestige bard from unearthed arcana. 8 ranks in preform is the biggest prereq, and you lose a spellcaster level in the dip, but you can cast any arcane spells in light armor after dipping. You will, on the other hand cast illusion, enchantment, and divinations at +2 cl. Practical spellcaster removes the penalty to necromancy and evocation and adds back in the cl lost to bard.

You also get access to bard spells like glibness and other goodies.
FTFY.

And what's wrong with using (Greater) Luminous Armor (from the Book of Exalted Deeds, IIRC)?

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, nothing really. That said, if you just want a wizard with really high AC, you should just go wizard 6 /ruthar 3/ abjurant champion 5 / legacy champion 6. Cast greater luminous armor, scintalating scales, and shield and have ac in the 60s. Nothing out there is going to beat that ac. An eternal wand of lesser restoration or a friendly cleric solve the ability damage.

I just pop in to throw in options for builds. Spellthief dip for an armored mage with some roughish ability. Prc bard dip for an armored mage with bard spell support.

And sorry about typos. I post from my phone. Editing is a pain.

[Fizban]

You realize that stacking githcraft and feycraft is completely straightforward, right? There's no exploit here, only a specific set of circumstances you have to meet to craft such an item. It's pretty annoying when you bring this personal bias into things that aren't in the least bit unclear or controversial.
Unclear or controversial by your standards. I think it's pretty obvious the intent is that any given item will have only one template, as evidenced by the specific requirements, and stacking them is an exploitation of the fact that they didn't make it explicit. The idea that you could go buy an item which was crafted by a fey-charmed gith on the astral plane automatically is ridiculous, and as always stacking effects from three different books in order to achieve something is by definition exploiting the resources (assumed free access to any and all sources and no DM interference) at your disposal.

Exploit does have a negative connotation, and when I think something has a negative impact on the game I'll use it, the same way you're going to keep recommending the things you like and calling down things you think are negative, the same way anyone discusses anything. For example, you accuse me of personal bias when I use a negative term in regards to something you like. Congratulations, you are biased against non-RAW arguments. I also find that pretty annoying.


Can you tell me what book this comes from?
Githcraft and feycraft are from DMG2, sectioned plate is from Planar Handbook, thistledown padding is from Races of the Wild, nimble and twilight are both in Magic Item Compendium, and Halfweight is from Underdark.

That's 5 sources, two iffy rulings, and a whole 'lotta gp in order to completely nullify the penalties of full plate.


I get the rest of that caster AC build, but where does Scintillating Scales come in? You've got no natural armor to scintillate into a deflection bonus, which gains you no benefit anyway. (And yes, I think that build is even more bogus/exploitative, but that's not the point- I just don't see where the scintillation comes in).

[Fouredged Sword]

Unclear or controversial by your standards. I think it's pretty obvious the intent is that any given item will have only one template, as evidenced by the specific requirements, and stacking them is an exploitation of the fact that they didn't make it explicit. The idea that you could go buy an item which was crafted by a fey-charmed gith on the astral plane automatically is ridiculous, and as always stacking effects from three different books in order to achieve something is by definition exploiting the resources (assumed free access to any and all sources and no DM interference) at your disposal.

Exploit does have a negative connotation, and when I think something has a negative impact on the game I'll use it, the same way you're going to keep recommending the things you like and calling down things you think are negative, the same way anyone discusses anything. For example, you accuse me of personal bias when I use a negative term in regards to something you like. Congratulations, you are biased against non-RAW arguments. I also find that pretty annoying.


Githcraft and feycraft are from DMG2, sectioned plate is from Planar Handbook, thistledown padding is from Races of the Wild, nimble and twilight are both in Magic Item Compendium, and Halfweight is from Underdark.

That's 5 sources, two iffy rulings, and a whole 'lotta gp in order to completely nullify the penalties of full plate.


I get the rest of that caster AC build, but where does Scintillating Scales come in? You've got no natural armor to scintillate into a deflection bonus, which gains you no benefit anyway. (And yes, I think that build is even more bogus/exploitative, but that's not the point- I just don't see where the scintillation comes in).

You do not need a natural armor bonus to benifit from scintillating scales. The spell applies a deflection bonus to your ac and a penalty to your natural armor bonus. You can have negative armor bonuses. Normally this adds your con modifier to your touch ac and half your con modifier to your normal ac. Abjurant champion adds it's class level to the bonus, but not the penalty. It is a solid addition to an abnurant chamipion's buff set as it gets free quicken and extend by abj cham 3.

If you really have a problem with the lack of armor bonus just get a +natural armor item equal to half your con modifier.

Edit - kust found out there are two versions of this spell. The draconomicon version I was familiar with seems to have been overwritten by the spell compendium version that is completly different.

[Crake]

That's 5 sources, two iffy rulings, and a whole 'lotta gp in order to completely nullify the penalties of full plate.

I don't think it's iffy at all. Sectioned plate has an ACP of -5, mithril reduces that by 3. Feycraft and Githcraft are templates, which have been historically stackable in other parts of the system (see race templates). There's nothing to say a fey and a gith couldn't have worked on a piece of equipment together. Sure it may be rare, it might even require that they be forced to work together, but it's not impossible.

I think both of those are pretty clear cut. The only issue is whether or not you can get comfort added on top to negate the thistledown padding ACP increase.

As for whether you think it's too expensive or not, that's entirely your opinion, but, say, +8 bracers of armor are 64k (don't even match), a twilight +5 mithril chain shirt is 37k, and is at it's AC limit, and a +4 mithril, twilight, nimble, feycraft breastplate clocks in at about 40k or so, and is just barely at the limits of it's AC, not to mention both of those likely have max Dex well above the needs of a wizard, both coming in at +6, wheras the full plate I propose comes in at a more reasonable +4, that's 14 base and a +4 item, or 16 base and a +2 item, since casters probably aren't gonna be investing too much into dex (let's be honest, a wizard can spend 16k better than on a +4 dex item). Those numbers are all pretty close to the 50k I quoted earlier, though the actual final price is 36k for the enchantments, 3000gp for the sectioned plate (39k), 500gp for the feycraft, 600gp for the githcraft (40.1k), 9k for the mithril (49.1k) and 250gp for the thistledown suit, for a grand total of 49,350gp, or 54,350gp if you're also allowed to get the comfort enchantment. And since you're probably about level 13-15 by the time you get this as your main set of armor, you're probably looking at the party cleric being able to karma beads chain magic vestment everyone's armor anyway, to increase it to +4, for a total AC benefit of +12, and +4 dex. For 54k I'd say that's a pretty damn good deal.

[Fizban]

Edit - kust found out there are two versions of this spell. The draconomicon version I was familiar with seems to have been overwritten by the spell compendium version that is completly different.
Huh, I never even noticed the original, wow. Abjurant Champion still only increases armor and shield bonuses though.


As for whether you think it's too expensive or not,
I never said that it was too expensive- that's a completely relative term that depends heavily on level and personal taste outside of WBL restrictions, and you already pointed out my cost comparison was +1 off which is worth quite a bit of money. I just said that it was a lot of gp. As for iffy rulings, that's the great thing: I can say it's iffy and you can say its clear cut and there's nothing else to say since the DMG says we're both right (or both wrong if we're arguing with the DM's ruling).

I'll maintain my implication that its bad for the game though, regardless of rulings. Here we have a thread where the OP asks about certain character traits that might allow him to cast in armor, and half the thread is about how he should buy a magic item instead of building a character that can do that. The armored spellcaster is a whole trope based around how doing this thing that most people can't do makes you awesome, and making it an item means its not special anymore except at levels where you can't afford that item. It's just something that any spellcaster with sufficient money can buy. And depending on what level he starts at and how his DM does magic items, it's entirely possible that's not even an option.

And since it seems to have been missed, I'll link the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) again. It's from the book Unearthed Arcana, which is a bunch of variants they released under the OGL, so the content is freely available on d20srd.org (or probably any other SRD site of your choice).

If you're not looking for full access to the sor/wiz spell list, you could also just be a Warmage, or a Dread Necromancer or Beguiler (Complete Arcane, Heroes of Horror, PHB2). They're all spontaneous spellcasters with set lists, focusing on battle magic, necromancy, and mind magic respectively, and they all have the ability to cast in light armor, which can be further improved by getting more armor proficiencies and taking Battle Caster.

[Crake]

If you're not looking for full access to the sor/wiz spell list, you could also just be a Warmage, or a Dread Necromancer or Beguiler (Complete Arcane, Heroes of Horror, PHB2). They're all spontaneous spellcasters with set lists, focusing on battle magic, necromancy, and mind magic respectively, and they all have the ability to cast in light armor, which can be further improved by getting more armor proficiencies and taking Battle Caster.

Bard into sublime chord should also work pretty well, get that feat which lets you cast in medium armor and pick up a suit of mithril fullplate, or just use mithril breastplate.

As for your other points, they're all fair enough. In my setting most high level magic items like that suit of armor, would be something that the players tailored and made themselves, so I suppose I have a bit of a setting bias in that sense, as sure it's a magic item that makes them capable of doing those things, but it's a magic item they made, so it's still equally awesome. Plus, if you minus out the halfweight, it actually becomes surprisingly affordable at mid to early levels. Haivng it made from scratch does become a bit more of an issue at earlier levels though, as getting a fey and a gith to work together becomes decidedly more difficult when you lack dominate person as a means of subduing a gith, and planeshift as a means of actually finding a gith. Fey are a whole other ball game altogether, but in my experience, generally one that can be achieved through roleplay. Or just have a fey familiar/cohort. Hell, get a fey familiar, and a gith cohort and boom, you're set :smalltongue:

But you're right, I did kinda lose sight of the initial question.

[jedikiller]

I forgot to say this earlier and I'm sorry about it but my character is level 10 and I need an affordable option so I can still buy wands and scrolls and whatnot.

[Fouredged Sword]

Go one level of spellthief and take the master spellthief feat from complete scoundrel. Wear a normal mythral brestplate.

[Fizban]

In my setting most high level magic items like that suit of armor, would be something that the players tailored and made themselves, so I suppose I have a bit of a setting bias in that sense, as sure it's a magic item that makes them capable of doing those things, but it's a magic item they made, so it's still equally awesome.
Indeed: one the flipside, if you've built it yourself then you're now Iron Man, and everybody loves Iron Man. I'd just prefer a single item written with the intent of "heavy armor with no penalties," rather than what I see as unintended optimization. Either way, building it yourself (especially during gameplay) makes it your own.

[Mordaedil]

You do not need a natural armor bonus to benifit from scintillating scales. The spell applies a deflection bonus to your ac and a penalty to your natural armor bonus. You can have negative armor bonuses. Normally this adds your con modifier to your touch ac and half your con modifier to your normal ac. Abjurant champion adds it's class level to the bonus, but not the penalty. It is a solid addition to an abnurant chamipion's buff set as it gets free quicken and extend by abj cham 3.

If you really have a problem with the lack of armor bonus just get a +natural armor item equal to half your con modifier.

Edit - kust found out there are two versions of this spell. The draconomicon version I was familiar with seems to have been overwritten by the spell compendium version that is completly different.

I do want to point out that abjurant champion bonus AC only gets applied to Armor and Shield AC bonuses, not Deflection or Natural Armor.

In addition, I believe your base 10 AC counts as natural armor? I could be wrong on that.

[Fizban]

Nope, base 10 AC is just AC, otherwise the base AC for touch attacks would be 0. It's the base miss chance assumed for anything trying to hit anything, 50/50.