Character death...

[Tyger]

Morning all (at least I think it's morning here!)

Our DM has a house rule on character death, and it's finally come up as a factor due to our first PC death, namely my character.

The rule is simple, you start one level behind the lowest level surviving character in the party. Not really a problem at all, hell, might even be a rule in the DMG.

The rule itself isn't the problem. The problem is that the DM does not allocate XP on a level by level basis. Rather, all PCs, regardless of level, earn the same amount of XP. So in the party of two level eight characters, one level seven character and one level nine character, all the PCs receive 2000 XP for defeating monster X.

This has the effect of keeping the lower level character lower level, all the time. It is impossible, baring the upper level characters dying (and thus remaking lower level characters still), or the whole party achieving high levels where a 10-20K disparity does not equal a whole level, to play on an even level.

To make matters more complicated, two of the players have retired their existing characters and been allowed to start characters at the same level as their old character. One of those is the highest level character in the party (at almost 10th level).

So, is this unreasonable? We're trying to pitch the matter to the DM, and show him the effect that its having on the game. He's a pretty reasonable bloke, but he can get the bit in his teeth on some issues.

I'm not one of the "Must have l33t loot and phat stats" type players, but it is discouraging to see your fellow players choosing their level 10 ability / spell / feat / whatever and know that you are at least 4-6 months (we only play once a month) from doing the same.

Any advice on pitching this to him?

[Roderick_BR]

In 3.5, the DMG suggests that when a character dies, and you make a new one, he starts as one level lower than the dead character, as if he had been rised from death (not ressurrected). For the XP, each character's XP awards are calculated based on his own level, if I'm not mistaken. I'ts there in the DMG.

[Tyger]

Yup, know that. But the problem is that the DM doesn't use the level dependant XP awards.

[AKA_Bait]

Yup, know that. But the problem is that the DM doesn't use the level dependant XP awards.

Talk to the DM about it. I have had a similar problem in the past also. Explain that they way they are allocating exp. you will never be able to catch up to the rest of the party and ask what can be done about it. If you DM is at all decent, you will be able to work something out.

In terms of pitching it, I would suggest saying something along the lines of not feeling your charcter is effective enough and that the gap will only widen as the party progresses in level. You want to be able to contribute at the same level as the rest of the party.

[Falrin]

My DM does the same, but in our game it doesn't feel like a problem.

Also Our DM has the more of the rule: Start (Insert reasonable amount of Xp) behind the Lowest LvL in the party.

Say the Party Has 50.000 Xp (LvL 10, halfway 11)
When you die you don't start at the beginning of LvL 9, but you'd get something like 43.000 Xp.

You're 7000 Xp Behind the party, but only one-half LvL.

Yes, you never catch up without people dieing, but depending on the mortality rate in your game that might not be a problem.

[Telonius]

You DM is likely coming from the perspective of, "Well, there really ought to be consequences for a character dying." Which is reasonable. He also probably doesn't want to spend lots of time figuring out appropriate ECL, do all the stats, etc. That's within his prerogative as DM. The thing is, those two items (both of which are his call) are coming into conflict, and dragging down your gaming experience.

I would suggest that one thing your DM could do, would be to figure out the base XP that he would have given to the general party level - however he determines that. Tack on an extra 10% of XP for each level behind the party the lagging characters are. That way, the extra work on the DM's part is minimized; there are still Real Consequences to character death (you're behind for awhile); but you still have the chance of getting up to the rest of the PCs' level.

[Douglas]

Ask him why he doesn't do the level-dependent XP. If it's just because he doesn't want to do the extra math/looking up more numbers, point him to this handy Encounter Calculator (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm) that does it all for him, using the exact numbers and method from the DMG. All he has to do is enter the number of monsters of each CR, the number of party members at each level, and hit calculate.

[Tormsskull]

I've never been a fan of the "self-correcting" exp system that 3.5 uses. I always calculate exp as a group and hand it out that way.

Did your character die through no fault of your own? Or did you overestimate your character's capabilities and bite of more than you can chew so-to-speak?

If no fault of your own and your were roleplaying and playing your alignment in a game where those two are important, I'd try to convince your DM to give you 100% exp.

If you died cause you tried to take on a bunch of opponents on your own, or saw a hole and decided to jump in just to see what was down there, etc. then I'd say learn from your mistakes, and accept the reduced exp/level.

[Tyger]

Well, it was an ECL 10ish encounter, against a party average level 8.5. Taking into account that our average wealth is that of a 5th level character, and that the thing had DR (which we could no learn nor overcome due to our lack of appropriate equipment). The beastie was handing us our respective behinds and while I did make a bad call, it was to try and save the lives of our entire party. It was completely IC, and the death scenes that followed were fantastic. :)

But that's an aside. I suppose for me, its that, for a while at any rate, I will actually be the same level as the cohort of one of the other characters. Youch! I'm one of the heroes of the story and yet I will be of comparable power and experience to someone's flunky? That just burns. :smallannoyed:

[tainsouvra]

Any advice on pitching this to him? I would just point out that his choice of house rules has the unintended side effect of making lower-level characters penalized much more dramatically than the official rules intend. You are penalized once for your death, by losing a level, but you are also receiving less experience compared to the challenges you are overcoming--the double penalty really isn't necessary.

[Tormsskull]

The beastie was handing us our respective behinds and while I did make a bad call, it was to try and save the lives of our entire party. It was completely IC, and the death scenes that followed were fantastic. :)


I'd talk to the DM, make sure he agrees with your view here. If he does and he still docked you a level, then I'd say that's being a bit harsh. He might think your bad call wasn't IC or wasn't in an attempt to save the party.



You are penalized once for your death, by losing a level, but you are also receiving less experience compared to the challenges you are overcoming--the double penalty really isn't necessary.


He isn't being penalized twice. He lost a set amount of Exp, and he'll stay at that same exact negative amount for the rest of his life (barring a solo quest or some other event). As he mentioned earlier, should he not die, due to the fact that the amount of exp needed per level keeps going up, he would eventually arise to a point where he'd be the same level as the rest of the party, but it will take a while to get to that point.

[John Campbell]

The XP-award-by-level system has some bugs in it.

I'm currently playing an item-crafting wizard (well, Fighter/Wizard/EK/Runesmith), who's spent over 6000 XP on various magical items... practically all of my cash goes into the components for the items. As a result, I'm much better equipped than the rest of the party, magic-item-wise - I've effectively got twice the budget for magic items that they do. But, because I was spending so much of my experience on item-crafting, I fell behind the rest of the party in experience level... when they hit 12th level, I was still in the middle of 11th.

But then we ran through a major fight, a whole series of linked encounters where we were under continuous threat for three entire game sessions, with no time to rest and recover spells, much less train and level up. One of those ones where, towards the end, the casters are just trying to avoid engagement because they've got nothing useful left up their sleeves, and the tanks are starting to shoot worried looks at their dropping hit point totals because the cleric's down to cure minors. The DM didn't hand out experience until the fight was finally over... for three sessions, probably ten or twelve CR-appropriate encounters.

I was a level behind the rest of the party for the whole thing, so, by the rules, I got more XP from each encounter than everyone else did. In fact, I got enough more that I actually passed them... my final XP total was higher than theirs. I was just shy of 13th, and the others were a bit less than 1000 XP behind me. That pretty well undid the balancing effects of my paying for my better equipment with slower leveling... I'm now the same level as everyone else and better equipped.

I'm falling behind again, because I'm still making stuff, but it won't last... as soon as I get far enough behind for it to matter, I'll start earning more XP than they do again. I doubt I'll pass the rest of the party again, because I think the DM has learned his lesson about handing out that much experience in one go, but I'm not worried about lagging behind significantly. And I'm still racking up the benefits of the XP expenditure.

[Argent]

Morning all (at least I think it's morning here!)

Our DM has a house rule on character death, and it's finally come up as a factor due to our first PC death, namely my character.

The rule is simple, you start one level behind the lowest level surviving character in the party. Not really a problem at all, hell, might even be a rule in the DMG.

The rule itself isn't the problem. The problem is that the DM does not allocate XP on a level by level basis. Rather, all PCs, regardless of level, earn the same amount of XP. So in the party of two level eight characters, one level seven character and one level nine character, all the PCs receive 2000 XP for defeating monster X.

This has the effect of keeping the lower level character lower level, all the time. It is impossible, baring the upper level characters dying (and thus remaking lower level characters still), or the whole party achieving high levels where a 10-20K disparity does not equal a whole level, to play on an even level.

To make matters more complicated, two of the players have retired their existing characters and been allowed to start characters at the same level as their old character. One of those is the highest level character in the party (at almost 10th level).

So, is this unreasonable? We're trying to pitch the matter to the DM, and show him the effect that its having on the game. He's a pretty reasonable bloke, but he can get the bit in his teeth on some issues.

I'm not one of the "Must have l33t loot and phat stats" type players, but it is discouraging to see your fellow players choosing their level 10 ability / spell / feat / whatever and know that you are at least 4-6 months (we only play once a month) from doing the same.

Any advice on pitching this to him?

Not to be a smart-aleck, but just tell him what you've been telling us in this thread.

1) It's not fair; you'll always be stuck a few levels behind your party, and especially if you're at the level of a cohort, you'll always be playing second banana.

2) It makes you less useful to the party, because you'll be lagging them in terms of power level.

3) It's not as much fun to play when your comrades have IMMENSE COSMIC POWER and you're tooling along a few levels behind them with a bent sword and chipped chainmail.

4) It may be worth ganging up with your group and presenting your thoughts on XP en masse; if he sees that it's not just one or two people who have a problem with the way he grants XP, but it's the entire group, that may help sway him somewhat.

[valadil]

Not only does my DM calculate XP per level, he also gives out catch up XP to help out players who lagged behind. The other players still remain more powerful than those who died, but it helps lessen the gap.

[horseboy]

He isn't being penalized twice. He lost a set amount of Exp, and he'll stay at that same exact negative amount for the rest of his life (barring a solo quest or some other event). As he mentioned earlier, should he not die, due to the fact that the amount of exp needed per level keeps going up, he would eventually arise to a point where he'd be the same level as the rest of the party, but it will take a while to get to that point.

I agree too.

[Damionte]

Our Dm used to calculate Xp by level early on but got out of the habit. Now he gives XP the same accross the board.

In our group when you die you come back at the same level of the lowest level person in the group. Initially you came back at that lvl +1 XP. Lately we've been coming back at that level plus 50%. it depends I guess on where evryone else is at.

I personally havn't felt them impact because I have not yet died. Over the course of the campaign though the levels have spread out a little bit. The high man is me @ lvl 18. The low man is I think lvl 14.

The spread has come less form people dieing and more from people missing games. In our group you don't get XP if yo're not there. We do it video game style. Any character who is not "logged in" simply isn't there. So there is no risk vs reward problem. If a key person isn't there we just play Runebound that night instead of D&D.

[Dizlag]

I DM for a large group (5-7 players) and character death happens. I let them bring in their new PC one level below the lowest in the party. I also dish out XP on a per level basis to they can catch up. Using the online XP calculator is a great tool ... I second the motion to show it to your DM.

And btw, read the section under the Leadership (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership) feat where it talks about "Cohorts earn XP as follows:". Note that you take the ratio of the cohort's level over the PC's level and multiply it by the XP the PC earned. So, if the 9th level PC in your party has a 7th level cohort, then that cohort is only getting 7/9ths of the XP you're getting. Hope that helps a bit. =)

Good luck!

Dizlag