Best knowledge class?

[Josato]

So im trying to make a character but i cant decide between cleric or bard. I want the character to be support based and trying to pick either knowledge domain or college of lore. Any advice is appreciated.

[Spacehamster]

So im trying to make a character but i cant decide between cleric or bard. I want the character to be support based and trying to pick either knowledge domain or college of lore. Any advice is appreciated.

Lore bard is probably more useful overall. :)
More skills, expertise in 4 skills instead of 2, possibility to poach spells from any class and so on.

[Naanomi]

Knowledge Cleric 1-2/Lore Bard multiclass is awesome

[Talamare]

Rogue 1
K.Cleric 1
Lore Bard 18

Edit - Arguable Scout Ranger 3, Lore Bard 15

[Josato]

Lore bard is probably more useful overall. :)
More skills, expertise in 4 skills instead of 2, possibility to poach spells from any class and so on.
Yeah the jack of all trades also helps for whats left. Is multiclassing worth it?

[Naanomi]

Yeah the jack of all trades also helps for whats left. Is multiclassing worth it?
I think so, medium armor is also nice on a Lore Bard after all

[Talamare]

Yeah the jack of all trades also helps for whats left. Is multiclassing worth it?

Half Proficiency vs Double Proficiency

It's worth it

[Arkhios]

WELL... Knowledge domain DOES grant you expertise in two "knowledges", which easily surpasses what you would get from just proficiency and high intelligence score, especially if you also have high intelligence score. Then again, bard does eventually get more expertises than knowledge domain, and even if you didn't have proficiency in every "knowledge", you still get half proficiency.

Just a reminder: bard gains expertise at 3rd level and again at 10th level, whereas Knowledge domain only at 1st level.

[Josato]

So i could have three classes?

[Talamare]

So i could have three classes?

You can have upto 20 different classes

[Arkhios]

So i could have three classes?

Of course. If you meet the minimum requirements for multiclassing, by RAW (rules as written), you could have levels in all classes.

[Josato]

WELL... Knowledge domain DOES grant you expertise in two "knowledges", which easily surpasses what you would get from just proficiency and high intelligence score, especially if you also have high intelligence score. Then again, bard does eventually get more expertises than knowledge domain, and even if you didn't have proficiency in every "knowledge", you still get half proficiency.

Just a reminder: bard gains expertise at 3rd level and again at 10th level, whereas Knowledge domain only at 1st level.

Thanks for the heads up.
So i should main Bard and dip one level in rogue and cleric.

The party is currently at lvl 6 and i have make a new character that does heals ad i like him to be a spy with alot of degrees in law, buisiness and forge whatever else he doesnt have.

[ImproperJustice]

You can have as many classes as you meet the prerequisites for.

Although at a certain point I bet it gets wierd.

For theory crafting, I created a Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/ Wizard/ Bard once.

I think he had like 9 cantrips at level 5?

[Naanomi]

So i could have three classes?
You could have 12, unless your DM says no; but I wouldn’t recommend it. Cleric/Bard or Rogue/Cleric/Bard all have potential though. I prefer the former.

A Scout/Knowledge Cleric/Lore Bard can be proficient in all 18 skills by level 7 if you really wanted...

[Asmotherion]

There is a build that eventually gets all skills and expertese in most of them;

From memory, I'm sure you start as a Half Elf for the bonus skills, Rogue 1 to get 4 starting skills (instead of 3 from Bard) and a backround of your choosing. Follow with Knowlage Cleric 1.

Then there was a good balance between College of Lore Bard and Rogue (any rogue really, but Arcane Tricster will provide more Spell Slots, wile the Swashbuckler has a lot of bonuses to skill checks on his own right... The new subclasses from Xanathars might have some interesting combination too), as well as the Skilled feat were you eventually ended up with Proficiency in all skills, and expertese in 10 of them or something.

[Spacehamster]

You could have 12, unless your DM says no; but I wouldn’t recommend it. Cleric/Bard or Rogue/Cleric/Bard all have potential though. I prefer the former.

A Scout/Knowledge Cleric/Lore Bard can be proficient in all 18 skills by level 7 if you really wanted...

If you actually wanted to be decent at combat you could go something like 5 Gloam stalker, 3 scout, 1 knowledge cleric, 3 lore bard. Finishing up 5 gloam, 4 bard, 1 cleric and 10 scout or something.
Decent at combat, 8 expertise and all skills. :)

[Asmotherion]

If you actually wanted to be decent at combat you could go something like 5 Gloam stalker, 3 scout, 1 knowledge cleric, 3 lore bard. Finishing up 5 gloam, 4 bard, 1 cleric and 10 scout or something.
Decent at combat, 8 expertise and all skills. :)
Wasn't the gloom stalker a ranger archetype or is my memory playing tricks on me?

[Arkhios]

Gloam stalker.

What's this Gloam Stalker I keep reading about? I was in an understanding the XGtE had a Gloom Stalker instead :smallamused:

[NecroDancer]

What's this Gloam Stalker I keep reading about? I was in an understanding the XGtE had a Gloom Stalker instead :smallamused:

I've seen a gloam stalker in an adventure league game. It's pretty niche but if you know your having a gloam heavy campaign it's pretty good.

[Arkhios]

I've seen a gloam stalker in an adventure league game. It's pretty niche but if you know your having a gloam heavy campaign it's pretty good.

I was being sarcastic (just read my signature). I said it only out of amusement of repeatedly misspelled Gloom Stalker. Gloam Stalker is NOT a thing.

[CantigThimble]

I think this really comes down to which of these two you prefer: Cutting words+Magical Secrets or Read Thoughts Channel Divinity. Those are both pretty sweet deals, though the Read Thoughts won't really shine unless you're doing social things sometimes.

[Talamare]

If you actually wanted to be decent at combat you could go something like 5 Gloam stalker, 3 scout, 1 knowledge cleric, 3 lore bard. Finishing up 5 gloam, 4 bard, 1 cleric and 10 scout or something.
Decent at combat, 8 expertise and all skills. :)

or just 2 Warlock...

Eldritch Blast = decent at combat

[Josato]

or just 2 Warlock...

Eldritch Blast = decent at combat

Could learn it from lore bard.

[Aaron Underhand]

Knowledge cleric 2/bard 18

Channel divinity for proficiency in any skill you don't have - just wonderful.

Ypu really don't need anything else for the knowledge skills

[Caelic]

Do check with your DM and make sure that multiclassing is actually on the table; it's an optional rule, and while it's a very common optional rule, not every group uses it.

[rooneg]

Could learn it from lore bard.

Eldritch Blast is really only good if you pick it up as a Warlock and get Agonizing Blast. It's a great way to give an otherwise non-combat character some combat chops, but it does really want that 2 level warlock dip.

FWIW, my skill monkey build is a Half Elf with this class progression: Rogue 1/Cleric 1 (Knowledge)/Warlock 2 (Agonizing Blast + Beguiling Influence invocations)/Bard 3 (Lore)/Rogue 2 (Scout). From then on you either dump levels into Bard to get better casting or Rogue to eventually get to Reliable Talent at Rogue 11. You can do it faster, but this version gets Darkvision and Agonizing Eldritch Blasts.

[Matrix_Walker]

My full skill multiclass suite is Human with the skilled feat, 4 skills and 2 from Background

Rogue (Scout) 3 - 6 skills, 4 Expertise
Cleric (Knowledge) 1 - 2 Skills, 2 Expertise
Bard (Lore) 3 - 4 skills, 2 with Expertise

So at level 7 you've got every skill with 8 Expertise (RAW, no UA now that scout is official)

I appreciate the build using Warlock, but I like getting the Rogue cunning action and Archetype in play as quickly as possible. At that point, you can almost always jam pack your action economy into fun town early on and never feel lacking in something to do while the rest of your goodies come online.

[rooneg]

My full skill multiclass suite is Human with the skilled feat, 4 skills and 2 from Background

Rogue (Scout) 3 - 6 skills, 4 Expertise
Cleric (Knowledge) 1 - 2 Skills, 2 Expertise
Bard (Lore) 3 - 4 skills, 2 with Expertise

So at level 7 you've got every skill with 8 Expertise (RAW, no UA now that scout is official)

I appreciate the build using Warlock, but I like getting the Rogue cunning action and Archetype in play as quickly as possible. At that point, you can almost always jam pack your action economy into fun town early on and never feel lacking in something to do while the rest of your goodies come online.

I think they're both totally legitimate builds. I admit, being fully online at level 7 is SUPER nice, I just hate being the one person in the party without Darkvision, and I think Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast is a better way to contribute to combat than effectively being a Rogue who's at least 4 levels behind on their Sneak Attack damage.

[Matrix_Walker]

I think they're both totally legitimate builds. I admit, being fully online at level 7 is SUPER nice, I just hate being the one person in the party without Darkvision, and I think Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast is a better way to contribute to combat than effectively being a Rogue who's at least 4 levels behind on their Sneak Attack damage.

Yep, both nice approaches. In less combat-centric times in the game though, a Rogue never has nothing to do. That and if I add Warlock, I can't bring myself to spend an invocation on skills!


Edit: Typo

[rooneg]

Yep, both nice approaches. In less combat-centric times in the game though, a Rogue never has nothing to do. That and if I add Warlock, I can't bring myself to spend an invocation on skills!

I admit, I do find it weird to be spending that invocation. That said, it's not terribly different from spending a feat on skills, which the VHuman version also does ;-)

[Finger6842]

If the only consideration is skills then I believe it's 17 Lore Bard/1 Rogue/2 Knowledge Cleric. The race will be Half-Elf.
Half-Elf gives you 2 skill proficiencies from skill versatility and an extra language besides common and elvish.
Bard gives you Jack of all Trades, 3 musical instruments, 4 expertise and 3 skill proficiencies.
College of Lore gives you 3 more skill proficiencies
Cleric gives you 2 from Arcana, History, Nature, or Religion (plus double proficiency for those 2 skills, effectively expertise) AND ALL of the tools.
Rogue gives you 4 skill proficiencies and 2 more expertise.
Acolyte background gives you Insight, Religion, and 2 extra languages
Everybody's Friend Feat gives you Expertise in Deception and Persuasion
Linguist Feat gives you 3 more languages
Prodigy Feat gives you one skill proficiency of your choice, one tool proficiency of your choice, one language of your choice and 1 more expertise.
Quick Fingered gives you proficiency is Sleight of Hand, or Expertise if you already have the skill.

So you wind up with 18 of the 18 skill proficiencies with the last 0 covered by JoaT (which is now only useful for Initiative?), 11 with Expertise, 9 Languages, Every Tool (2 with expertise), and 3 musical instruments.
Any of these can be augmented by both Peerless Skill and Cutting Words, both of which affect skill checks.

Acrobat, Animal Handler, Arcanist, Brawny, Diplomat, Empathic, Historian, Investigator, Medic, Menacing, Naturalist, Perceptive, Performer, Silver Tongued, Stealthy, Survivalist, and Theologian would all give you expertise in their perspective skills. There's only 17 here, maybe I missed one.

The "Skilled" Feat would give any 3 skill proficiencies and thus we could replace Quick Fingered and/or Everybody's Friend skills while maintaining all 18. Alternately you are a Bard so take Comprehend Languages and/or Tongues and now you have all the languages. This would let you drop Linguist and pick up Skilled. I'm unclear if this Feat would double the skills that we already have, essentially giving 3 more expertise.

Barbed Hide, Critter Friend, Grudge Bearer, Squat Nimbleness are race specific Feats that will also grant skills, potentially making other races able to reach the mystical 18 skill cap.


In reality, giving up level 18 Bard Magical Secrets is insane so best to not take 1 level of Rogue since all of the tools is too much to pass up unless you need sneak attack and some of the skills are redundant. For example, you don't need Intimidate AND Persuasion so you can ignore one or the other. In some cases, a spell or magic item can cover a skill, like Boots of Elvenkind providing advantage on Stealth Skill checks. This need to keep Cleric is more true if someone in the party has the Fabricate spell which relies heavily on tools.

Is there a better combo out there now that we have all the add-on books?