Sorcadin vs Battlesorc vs Bladesinger

[nirurin]

So I'm considering making a magic-heavy melee character, which is able to tank some hits when needed but otherwise can dish out some damage or crowd control.

The default option seemed to be Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X, to go for the standard Sword&Shield paladin with plenty of spell slots for smites and the standard sorcerer spells (along with the Shield spell, which is important for both my build ideas). Everything recharging on Long Rests.


I am also considering the less-usual option of a Battlemaster 3 / Sorcerer X. One less level of Sorcerer spell slots, but also no smites using spell slots, so the amount of sorcerer-used spells will probably end up the same (or more). Instead of smites, I get short-rest maneuver dice, which will let me do things like get Precision hits with my booming/greenflame cantrips, or Menacing to give an enemy disadvantage against me for a turn. Both useful, and recharging on Short-rests gives me more consistent options in a dungeon-crawling day.


Also considering Bard, as Swords Bard would give a much more limited version of Maneuvers. They wouldn't become short-rest until level 5 Bard though, so would actually be 6+ depending on when I take those levels.

The final thought is Warlock. Probably have to be Hexblade 3 / Sorcerer X. Those two short-rest spell slots are nice, though would be low level so not sure on them.


The Sorcerer Origin I was considering is the new Shadow origin. The Darkness combo is well known for being good for both defence and offence, and the Strength of the Grave ability (though very weak really) might be helpful if the killing-blow was a small chip damage hit. The Hound I'm not sure about, Shadow Walk seems situationally useful, and Umbral Form is late game and possibly out of reach (though would be great for tanking a big bad).

Otherwise, I'm not sure. Divine Soul might be useful for the extra healing spells, and my group is lacking in heals. But spending sorcery dice on the healing re-rolls seems expensive.


Final thought - Bladesinger. Gets the Shield spell, and Find Familiar for scouting and occasional advantages. Boosts to AC for 1minute twice every short rest, and can regain spell slots once per day too. Not compatible with Paladin, but would work with Fighter and Mage Armour. In fact, the Bladesinger ability only discounts armour and shields, so a 2-handed weapon would still work. Mobile + Booming Blade, or Polearm Mastery + Warcaster.

(Edit - PAM and Warcaster wont work together well, unless I also have Spell Sniper, which is a hell of an investment. Mobile+Booming might be a better option. This works for all the above classes I think. Mobile + PAM + Sentinel gives a lot of options for locking down enemies.)

Turns out, later on in the description, it then adds "no 2-handed weapons". Doesn't mention it in the first part, only later. Annoying.

(Edit 2 - For calling it Bladedancer instead of Bladesinger, cos I'm an idiot)

Thoughts?

[LeonBH]

In my experience, the Sorlock wipes the floor with the Bladesinger.

However, a Sorcadin who uses spell points is incredibly powerful due to Quickened Fireball + Divine Smite + Hellish Rebuke. You are a DPR monster if you manage to consume all your resources over the course of a fight, and you are resilient on all saves due to Aura of Protection.

A Bladesinger 6/Swashbuckler 3 who has Haste and Blade Song on is incredibly mobile with a high AC, owing to Fancy Footwork being built with a portion of the Mobile feat, and Blade Song possessing the other half. You also get Sneak Attack dice all the time, so your booming blade hits for 1d8 (rapier) + 2d6 (sneak) + 1d8 (thunder) + DEX.

I don't think Battle Master/Sorcerer is a worthwhile option, and neither is a Bard/Sorc if you want to focus on combat. The Battle Master doesn't give the Sorc that many synergies, and the DC is based off your Str or Dex, not Cha. Precision Attack wouldn't really come into play because you don't have smite or sneak attack dice to make the hits count. You would just end up realizing that casting spells is your most effective option. A Bard/Sorc suffers from the same problem -- it's more suited to a spellcaster than a gish.

The Sorcerous Origin I would most recommend for you is Divine Soul to get Favored of the Gods (try to use the 2nd Favored Soul iteration from the UA instead, which also has Supernatural Resilience, and doesn't have Empowered Healing), or Draconic Sorcerer to get Draconic Resilience.

[Nettlekid]

I would say that Sorcadin/Sorlock plays like a magical Barbarian with heavy strikes while Bladesinger plays like a magical Monk with high speed and mobility but lower damage output. Personally I prefer Bladesinger because I like the spells Wizards get and I like that it's put together in a nice package without having to multiclass. Plus they can do their mobile skirmisher thing just by using Bladesong, Mobile/Swashbuckler dip, cantrips, and maybe one or two buffing spells like Haste, which means that most of your spell slots can be reserved for either out-of-combat use or when you really need to shake things up and remind people you're a Wizard. Sorcadin/Sorlock goes through its resources very quickly, and it's frustrating to want to hit hard with Divine/Eldritch Smite but know that you're giving uses of your signature spells to do so. It also takes longer to hit its stride - Sorcadins can't wait until level 12 when they have enough spells to burn in Smites, Sorcery Points to Metamagic their spells, and Aura of Protection. If you're starting at a considerably high level then maybe try Sorcadin, but Bladesinger is enjoyable throughout its progression (and I would say weakens at the higher levels, except that you're still a Wizard.)

[Renduaz]

What are you looking for, power? If so, then the posters above are wrong. The Bladesinger wipes the floor with pretty much anything else, including any and all marital classes simply by virtue of being the Wizard, while people who are inexperienced with spells and tactics prefer a Sorclock because they only need to know how to chuck some damage spells. Might not be obvious at lower levels but gets more and more obvious as you advance, up until the point where you can pull off something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535244-Highest-consistent-plausible-DPR-possible), while walking around with an entourage like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543146-Heart-of-The-Swarm-1000-to-2000-damage-with-a-bonus-action-(-Tiny-Servant-)), and on and on and on and on.

Simulacrum alone will double everything you got on the very same turn and permanently as long as you keep it safe, which actually isn't hard to do.

[LeonBH]

What are you looking for, power? If so, then the posters above are wrong. The Bladesinger wipes the floor with pretty much anything else, including any and all marital classes simply by virtue of being the Wizard, while people who are inexperienced with spells and tactics prefer a Sorclock because they only need to know how to chuck some damage spells. Might not be obvious at lower levels but gets more and more obvious as you advance, up until the point where you can pull off something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535244-Highest-consistent-plausible-DPR-possible), while walking around with an entourage like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543146-Heart-of-The-Swarm-1000-to-2000-damage-with-a-bonus-action-(-Tiny-Servant-)), and on and on and on and on.

Simulacrum alone will double everything you got on the very same turn and permanently as long as you keep it safe, which actually isn't hard to do.

The Sorlock with Dispel Magic disagrees. Besides, if you're taking about higher levels, the Sorcs get Wish too and can replicate the Wizard's abilities. And the Divine Soul Coffeelock is the best RAW necromancer in the game (not that it should see the light of day...).

Also... I know what you meant, but it's amusing that you said the Bladesinger is better than all marital classes. Do they say their vows better and buy their wives prettier gowns? Hehe.

[Renduaz]

The Sorlock with Dispel Magic disagrees. Besides, if you're taking about higher levels, the Sorcs get Wish too and can replicate the Wizard's abilities. And the Divine Soul Coffeelock is the best RAW necromancer in the game (not that it should see the light of day...).

Also... I know what you meant, but it's amusing that you said the Bladesinger is better than all marital classes. Do they say their vows better and buy their wives prettier gowns? Hehe.

The Wizard with Counterspell and Dispel magic then probably double disagrees, but Wish isn't always an option. You can't replicate a Wizard's hundreds of Tiny Servants for example with Wish and things like that, And you'll waste some slots replicating lower-level Wizard spells. The Wizard also has access to two of the most powerful control spells in the game due to granting no save ( Hence not even affected by legendary resistance ), Maze and Forcecage. The Wizard can have infinite Spell-Mastered Shield as his reaction in addition to all his other sources of AC, and Spell-Mastered Misty Step on the next.

If choosing Abjuration Wizard/Fighter 1/Cleric 1 at a small sacrifice of melee consistency, you can get up to 40 with magic items or something like 28 on basic and resistances to almost everything with this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533093-The-Defensive-Wizard-Strategy-Build&p=22283122).

[LeonBH]

The Wizard with Counterspell and Dispel magic then probably double disagrees, but Wish isn't always an option. You can't replicate a Wizard's hundreds of Tiny Servants for example with Wish and things like that, And you'll waste some slots replicating lower-level Wizard spells. The Wizard also has access to two of the most powerful control spells in the game due to granting no save ( Hence not even affected by legendary resistance ), Maze and Forcecage. The Wizard can have infinite Spell-Mastered Shield as his reaction in addition to all his other sources of AC, and Spell-Mastered Misty Step on the next.

If choosing Abjuration Wizard/Fighter 1/Cleric 1 at a small sacrifice of melee consistency, you can get up to 40 with magic items or something like 28 on basic and resistances to almost everything with this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533093-The-Defensive-Wizard-Strategy-Build&p=22283122).

The Sorcerer with Subtle Spell triple disagrees.

Forcecage is escapable with Misty Step, and Maze is dispellable with Subtle Spell. And Shield precludes Counterspell -- they cannot be used in the same round, so a Shocking Grasp + Quickened Spell defeats that setup (either forcing you to use Shield and your reaction against a cantrip, to use Counterspell and your reaction against a cantrip, or take the hit and lose your reaction).

Anyway, not in terms of a mage duel, but in terms of fitting in with the party, the Wizard is greatly useful due to their vast spell list. And yet they cannot adapt on the fly to changing circumstances to the same degree as the Sorlock.

[dejarnjc]

I think it depends on your play style. The Sorcadin is all about big smites right? You'll have a limited spell list for sure but your main focus is utilizing the few spells you have well and getting powerful melee attacks in while smiting on top of that.

The bladesinger on the other hand is a full wizard. You'll have a diverse set of options, the full wizard spell list to choose from, and more spells known than the sorcadin by a large factor. It's also a single class which gives it a faster spell level progression and faster access to things like feats. Finally, I think the bladesinger works best with concentration style spells via spells like flaming spheres, summon minor/normal elementals, animate objects etc. These all allow the bladesinger to utilize it's multi-attack (or BB/GFM attack) with their action while also doing solid work with their concentration spells. The advantage on concentration checks from bladesinging makes this combo very effective.

As the sorcerer spell list though doesn't offer you very many bonus action or conjuration spells so I think the bladesinger ultimately beats out the sorcadin in terms of action economy and resource utilization. If you're just facing one or two encounters a day though, then the sorcadin becomes much more attractive as I imagine you can nova a bunch of damage in 2-3 rounds.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Bladesinger is a superior caster, but isn't that great as a melee fighter-- sure, it gets an AC boost and Extra Attack, but you're still stuck in light armor and using light weapons with no fighting style-- you're much better off just casting normal Wizard spells most of the time.

Divine Soul can get some nice Cleric buffs or heals, which is nice... I also like Draconic Sorcerer as a gish, actually-- it gets extra hit points and AC (if you didn't dip for heavy armor), and Cha-to-damage goes great with Green Flame Blade.

[borg286]

The way I would build it is as follows
Stone Sorcerer 1-3: at 3 twin dragons breath on you and a melee ally. Absorb elements to reduce fireballs killing concentration. Stine sorcerer has 13+con for AC assuming no non-shield armor.

Hexblade 1: now you can effectively use a sword and justify dropping str, Dex, int, and Wis. Arms of hadar for AoE. Leave warlock 2 and agonizing blast for level 11 when it becomes more effective. If others want to play the darkness game then pick a level the group can agree on and do warlock 2 then. The main attack options are twin Booming Blade. Quickened scorching Ray is on par with smite, from an damage per spell point perspective, and almost as good on the action economy. Where it lacks is needing to be at range when you're already engaged, and no fireworks when you find you just crit.

Sorcerer 4: warcaster for booming opportunity attacks. This makes you a very effective defender. Use haste's extra action to disengage and leave foes stranded.
Sorcerer x: focus on what main concentration spell you will keep up, preferably that is twinable, or can be upcast to get more people.
Haste, greater invisibility

Sorcerer 6 gives you aegis of assault, er I mean, stone aegis. Cast on squishy ally to be a defender, or face tanker ally to use up reactions in more attacks. Versatility!!!

The problem is that being a caster in my mind means I have good utility. Sorcerers don't have the greatest utility spells. But here are the ones that did enough for me.

Minor illusion
Hex(illusions ask for an Int ability CHECK which hex impacts)
Enhance ability(put your twin to use)
Fly
Mass suggestion

I ended up favoring yuan-ti for the magical resistance as a poor man's aura of protection. The ability itself is given by a rare item that requires attunement.