D&D gems must be huge

[Tanarii]

Shadow of Moil, Xanathars's p 164
Components: V, S, M (an undead eyeball encased in a gem worth at least 150 gp)

This seems to indicate that a gem worth less than 150gp is over an inch in diameter, since that's the approximate diameter of the typical human eye. How much less is open to debate, since the final product is worth 150gp, and we have to assume at least some of the value comes from craftsmanship of the final product.

I've always kind of assumed that D&D gems and coins were larger than life for their 'value', but that seems kind of excessive. Makes me wonder how big a 1000gp Diamond or Ruby must be. Size of a fist?

[Eurus]

Shadow of Moil, Xanathars's p 164
Components: V, S, M (an undead eyeball encased in a gem worth at least 150 gp)

This seems to indicate that a gem worth less than 150gp is over an inch in diameter, since that's the approximate diameter of the typical human eye. How much less is open to debate, since the final product is worth 150gp, and we have to assume at least some of the value comes from craftsmanship of the final product.

I've always kind of assumed that D&D gems and coins were larger than life for their 'value', but that seems kind of excessive. Makes me wonder how big a 1000gp Diamond or Ruby must be. Size of a fist?

"Gem" is a pretty vague term, isn't it? Could be encased in a thin layer of amber, or something.

EDIT: I'm not sure I can think of any other good ways to get an eyeball "encased in a gem" in the first place, honestly...

[Caelic]

Hey, gigantic gems have been a staple of fantasy forever. How many times do you see a realistic-sized gemstone in a fantasy painting?

Besides, it doesn't have to be a highly valuable gemstone--a hunk of garnet would do. (The question becomes how you're going to get the eyeball into the gem, of course--Eurus is right on the money about that.)

[SharkForce]

Hey, gigantic gems have been a staple of fantasy forever. How many times do you see a realistic-sized gemstone in a fantasy painting?

Besides, it doesn't have to be a highly valuable gemstone--a hunk of garnet would do. (The question becomes how you're going to get the eyeball into the gem, of course--Eurus is right on the money about that.)

easy. crack open a geode, stuff the eyeball inside, use mending to seal it shut. presto! one eyeball encased in a gem.

[Tanarii]

Oh, I like the Amber idea.


easy. crack open a geode, stuff the eyeball inside, use mending to seal it shut. presto! one eyeball encased in a gem.Would mending reseal the two halves of a normal Gem if it was cracked open and the center carved out? Not sure that'd work any more, because it's not the original single break.

[Jormengand]

I'm not sure I follow this line of argumentation. There is some kind of gem, 1 inch in diameter, worth 150 GP, therefore any gem worth 1000 GP must be huge? For a start, different gems have different values. Second, the volume of a sphere has r3 in it - a 2 inch diameter gem would be worth 1200 gp even if it was made of the same stuff. 2 inch diameter might be big for a gem, I dunno, but it's hardly comically huge.

[Easy_Lee]

easy. crack open a geode, stuff the eyeball inside, use mending to seal it shut. presto! one eyeball encased in a gem.

Fabricate might also do it.

[JackPhoenix]

I would think that breaking a gem to stick an undead eye inside wouldn't exactly increase its value.

What I find weird is the disparity between standard diamond (5k gp in DMG), diamonds used to cast Raise Dead (500 gp) and the diamond needed for Chromatic Orb (50 gp)

[Foxhound438]

I mean, you can get a piece of quartz the size of your head for 500 bucks, and I'm pretty sure that comes out to less than 10GP... more or less based on GP cost of a longsword vs. dollar cost of a decent quality reproduction sword.

[Foxhound438]

I would think that breaking a gem to stick an undead eye inside wouldn't exactly increase its value.

What I find weird is the disparity between standard diamond (5k gp in DMG), diamonds used to cast Raise Dead (500 gp) and the diamond needed for Chromatic Orb (50 gp)

quality, probably. you can get diamonds for tool edges for very cheap compared to jewelry diamonds, and that's just based on the size of crystal that has no defects.

[SharkForce]

Oh, I like the Amber idea.

Would mending reseal the two halves of a normal Gem if it was cracked open and the center carved out? Not sure that'd work any more, because it's not the original single break.

you appear to be missing some context.

a geode looks like a fairly normal rock externally, but is actually hollow and lined with crystalline stuff internally. there is no need to carve out the inside, it already has open space there. look it up, you'll see what i mean :)

you would wind up with a fairly large spell component most likely that way, but mending should indeed repair the geode just fine :)

[Beelzebubba]

Big, bad quality, lots of inclusions, hazy instead of clear

It'd be fitting for an Undead eyeball for sure

[Dimers]

I imagine that the bigger problem is finding an undead eyeball. Sure, it's simple enough to get the eyeball of an undead creature (even without making it a dead creature again) ... but that's not "an undead eyeball".

[Millstone85]

I imagine that the bigger problem is finding an undead eyeball. Sure, it's simple enough to get the eyeball of an undead creature (even without making it a dead creature again) ... but that's not "an undead eyeball".If we go by Crawford's rulings on using resurrection spells on the "dead undead" (which I recently linked in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544942-TIL-things-about-skeletons-and-zombies)), my guess is that, yes, it is.

[Jeraa]

Also, nothing says it has to be a human eyeball. Just an eyeball. An eyeball from an undead mouse would work just as fine.

[DarkKnightJin]

Shadow of Moil, Xanathars's p 164
Components: V, S, M (an undead eyeball encased in a gem worth at least 150 gp)

This seems to indicate that a gem worth less than 150gp is over an inch in diameter, since that's the approximate diameter of the typical human eye. How much less is open to debate, since the final product is worth 150gp, and we have to assume at least some of the value comes from craftsmanship of the final product.

I've always kind of assumed that D&D gems and coins were larger than life for their 'value', but that seems kind of excessive. Makes me wonder how big a 1000gp Diamond or Ruby must be. Size of a fist?

I think you misread. The gem must be AT LEAST 150gp. Not 'at most'. Huge difference.

Also, i'm guessing the way to get the gems is more precious. Because manual labor in mining them. Instead of having a lot of machinery to help out with it.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Big, bad quality, lots of inclusions, hazy instead of clear

It'd be fitting for an Undead eyeball for sure

This. Look up the 4 C's of diamond value: carat, cut, colour and clarity. The physical size of a gemstone (carat) is only one of the factors affecting value.

[Unoriginal]

As others have said, size doesn't mean a gem is valuable.

On the other hand, yes, some gems in D&D are huge. Not all of then, but some.

Pretty sure a famous D&D illustration involves a rogue stealing a ruby the size of a head (or a bit smaller) from a statue's eye

[Caelic]

This actually reminds me of a character I played in first edition (a bard) who specialized in obtaining rare and hard to find spell components for wizards.

He would've been the guy using Stone Shape to mold gemstones around undead eyeballs, right enough.

[Xetheral]

It could also simply be that there is very little demand for a gem with an undead eyeball in it, driving the value down. Or that the market is flooded with them.

[Tanarii]

you appear to be missing some context.I didn't, I'm aware what a geode is and I loved your idea. In fact, I left out a comment I was going to make: most geodes I've seen, the rocky shell is left around the outside, to keep the crystals attached to something other than themselves. But I'm sure you could cut it down (carefully) to the crystal, polish it up, and have a beautiful gem with whatever sealed in side. (Weird ass casters doing stuff like 'undead eyeball'.

My question was a spin-off of the geode idea, about the interaction of Mending with a normal gem cut in half and hollowed out. Would that work, or nah?


I think you misread. The gem must be AT LEAST 150gp. Not 'at most'. Huge difference.
I didn't misread. What must be worth at least 150gp is "an undead eyeball encased in a gem". The gem itself can be considerably less, as craftsmanship of an esoteric object like that will add to the value, putting the final object worth at least 150gp.



Pretty sure a famous D&D illustration involves a rogue stealing a ruby the size of a head (or a bit smaller) from a statue's eyeAny chance you can recall something more specific? Edition? Artist? I'd love to find that, I'm always interested in good quality D&D art.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Any chance you can recall something more specific? Edition? Artist? I'd love to find that, I'm always interested in good quality D&D art.
1st Ed PHB cover, Dave Trampier, maybe? Giant ruby eye set in a huge stone idol being prised out by two thieves.

[the_brazenburn]

I mean, you can get a piece of quartz the size of your head for 500 bucks, and I'm pretty sure that comes out to less than 10GP... more or less based on GP cost of a longsword vs. dollar cost of a decent quality reproduction sword.

I don't think longsword is the best constant for your equation. Longswords today are mostly made via custom order from small, niche companies, so the prices have been inflated. I would think a pound of flour (1 cp?) would be more suitable as a constant variable.

[Talamare]

I mean...

Technically Gemstones have no real value in real life
They are just fake values that the company who owns a monopoly on them artificially sets while keeping a vault/warehouse of gemstones so massive that if it was released onto the open market... The price of a diamond the size of your fist would probably plummet from millions to a $20 bill.

[Unoriginal]

Any chance you can recall something more specific? Edition? Artist? I'd love to find that, I'm always interested in good quality D&D art.

The AD&D's PHB cover, by Kevin Mayle (which was apparently a re-done version of the 1rst edition's PHB cover)

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--r5OfP7Y4--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1411946588984324755.jpg

It was also referenced serval time afterward:

https://deadmanstales.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/ddshrine.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-E2MBw6HYt0k/T2EvYMIhmeI/AAAAAAAAAxc/mcjPhai3pUQ/s1600/tavern-brawl.jpg

[Anonymouswizard]

I mean...

Technically Gemstones have no real value in real life
They are just fake values that the company who owns a monopoly on them artificially sets while keeping a vault/warehouse of gemstones so massive that if it was released onto the open market... The price of a diamond the size of your fist would probably plummet from millions to a $20 bill.

Yeah, add to that the fact that synthetic diamonds are relatively easy to make and can be extremely high quality (as you have better control over the carbon to other stuff ratio) diamonds really should be dirt cheap. I've used this in designing settings before, including a science fiction one where diamonds are only considered valuable on Earth and just considered a useful resource elsewhere. Also a fantasy setting where diamonds are insanely common (as in mining for metal meant you had to deal with a lot of useless diamonds), to the point where their main value is as spell components (and I considered having the copper piece equivalent as a disc of diamond a couple of mm thick in the center called a bit, could be used as a sling bullet if you were too stingy to buy them). GP values were switched to rough diameter values, with component diamonds being spheres or occasionally cubes, and almost every spell required a diamond to cast.

[Unoriginal]

I mean...

Technically Gemstones have no real value in real life
They are just fake values that the company who owns a monopoly on them artificially sets while keeping a vault/warehouse of gemstones so massive that if it was released onto the open market... The price of a diamond the size of your fist would probably plummet from millions to a $20 bill.


Yeah, add to that the fact that synthetic diamonds are relatively easy to make and can be extremely high quality (as you have better control over the carbon to other stuff ratio) diamonds really should be dirt cheap. I've used this in designing settings before, including a science fiction one where diamonds are only considered valuable on Earth and just considered a useful resource elsewhere. Also a fantasy setting where diamonds are insanely common (as in mining for metal meant you had to deal with a lot of useless diamonds), to the point where their main value is as spell components (and I considered having the copper piece equivalent as a disc of diamond a couple of mm thick in the center called a bit, could be used as a sling bullet if you were too stingy to buy them). GP values were switched to rough diameter values, with component diamonds being spheres or occasionally cubes, and almost every spell required a diamond to cast.


First, not all gems are diamonds. Nowadays, a lot of gems are rarer than diamonds, and would in fact be more valuable if the monopoly didn't keep the diamonds' price up artificially.

Second, diamonds are very common *with modern mining means". D&D worlds usually don't have access to stuff as efficient as our mining equipment, to say nothing of *creating* diamonds. So D&D diamonds being somewhat rarer and more valuable than in our world make sense.

The Plane of Earth technically has a ridiculous amount of all gems, but getting them is equally ridiculously costly, so not a good alternative.

Still, it's pretty clear the D&D world is filled with plenty of gems of various size, quality and rarity for different values, to the point gems are often considered an easier way to transport your money than tons of gold.

[Temperjoke]

It could also be a magically-created material component. While the spells we have in the PHB can't be used for it, that doesn't mean that it's impossible. Maybe someone devised a gem-coating spell?

[Anonymouswizard]

First, not all gems are diamonds. Nowadays, a lot of gems are rarer than diamonds, and would in fact be more valuable if the monopoly didn't keep the diamonds' price up artificially.

Sure, which is why I focused on diamonds.


Second, diamonds are very common *with modern mining means". D&D worlds usually don't have access to stuff as efficient as our mining equipment, to say nothing of *creating* diamonds. So D&D diamonds being somewhat rarer and more valuable than in our world make sense.

Ah, I tend not to run settings with pre-modern technology, so I tend to assume modern mining as a given. If I don't gems are either significantly rarer or common to the point of absurdity (as in the fantasy setting I outlined). If running science fiction there might even be luxury yachts with diamond hulls, although commercial and military ships tend to stick with iron-aluminium alloys.


The Plane of Earth technically has a ridiculous amount of all gems, but getting them is equally ridiculously costly, so not a good alternative.

Eh, if we're in a setting with FR level magic and established wizard's guilds, component-quality gems are probably more common than gems mined from the ground, but only collected a couple of times a year and their sale restricted to guild members. It could conceivably replace traditionally mined gems entirely without making them much more common rarer (as guilds would sell excess or lower quality gems for income they'd be encouraged not to get too many).

In a setting where a country may have a wizard or two able to cast plane shift, then yes the PoE isn't going to be a good return on investment unless you need a very high quality gem.

Synthetic gems would also be a goal of alchemy, but that doesn't mean they have to have been developed. Such a thing is a great switch for use when worldbuilding, as the presence or absence of synthetic gems can change a setting.


Still, it's pretty clear the D&D world is filled with plenty of gems of various size, quality and rarity for different values, to the point gems are often considered an easier way to transport your money than tons of gold.

Yep.

[Talamare]

First, not all gems are diamonds. Nowadays, a lot of gems are rarer than diamonds, and would in fact be more valuable if the monopoly didn't keep the diamonds' price up artificially.

Second, diamonds are very common *with modern mining means". D&D worlds usually don't have access to stuff as efficient as our mining equipment, to say nothing of *creating* diamonds. So D&D diamonds being somewhat rarer and more valuable than in our world make sense.

The Plane of Earth technically has a ridiculous amount of all gems, but getting them is equally ridiculously costly, so not a good alternative.

Still, it's pretty clear the D&D world is filled with plenty of gems of various size, quality and rarity for different values, to the point gems are often considered an easier way to transport your money than tons of gold.

but... Magic

You don't need modern mining machines when you can magic

[Unoriginal]

but... Magic

You don't need modern mining machines when you can magic

Actually, you do.

There is very little affordable magic that can help with mining.

[Lombra]

There may be undead creatures with tiny eyes too.

[SharkForce]

I didn't, I'm aware what a geode is and I loved your idea. In fact, I left out a comment I was going to make: most geodes I've seen, the rocky shell is left around the outside, to keep the crystals attached to something other than themselves. But I'm sure you could cut it down (carefully) to the crystal, polish it up, and have a beautiful gem with whatever sealed in side. (Weird ass casters doing stuff like 'undead eyeball'.

My question was a spin-off of the geode idea, about the interaction of Mending with a normal gem cut in half and hollowed out. Would that work, or nah?

ah, ok.

i think it could work with other gems. it does not require you to mend all damage done to the item, it just lets you repair one break or tear. it doesn't have any provisions for repairing only part of a break or tear, but i would consider the hollowing-out to be a separate break or tear, so i don't think that matters... you just choose the break that you want to fix, and fix that one.

i would say that if you somehow managed to both split the gem *and* hollow it out in a single strike somehow, mending would repair the entire gem. but if it took multiple separate procedures to do the damage, mending is only going to repair one (at a time).

[Beleriphon]

Any chance you can recall something more specific? Edition? Artist? I'd love to find that, I'm always interested in good quality D&D art.

AD&D PHB cover. The stone is considerably larger than the thieves heads combined.

http://madcleric.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/1advancedfinal-e1467507260919.jpg

[rooster707]

The AD&D's PHB cover, by Kevin Mayle (which was apparently a re-done version of the 1rst edition's PHB cover)

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--r5OfP7Y4--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1411946588984324755.jpg

It was also referenced serval time afterward:

https://deadmanstales.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/ddshrine.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-E2MBw6HYt0k/T2EvYMIhmeI/AAAAAAAAAxc/mcjPhai3pUQ/s1600/tavern-brawl.jpg

Also:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/GiantInThePlayground_Wallpapers/WrongEye_1920x1080.png

[Talamare]

Actually, you do.

There is very little affordable magic that can help with mining.

I think you're misunderstanding how like... economies and employment works.

It may be expensive for an adventuring group to get a wizard to cast them a spell, but it would be significantly cheaper to hire a few dozen wizards to work full time jobs.
Taking it a step forward, you wouldn't even need to train high level wizards. Use diversity of skills and factory line rules. Have wizards who specifically skilled at certain jobs.
Low level wizard would move the majority of the dirt, while a few mid level wizards explode any difficult rocks.

Basic rules of economy of scale.

-- But Wizards are Rare!

Well, Wizards are literally a product of education. Nearly anyone can become a Wizard.
So if a large factory style organization came about who needed Wizards, they could literally start an in house school to teach their workers what is needed.
Essentially what China does when hiring people to do tasks that require high education. They teach the specific task they need, and basically nothing else.

So yea... Magic

[Unoriginal]

I think you're misunderstanding how like... economies and employment works.

It may be expensive for an adventuring group to get a wizard to cast them a spell, but it would be significantly cheaper to hire a few dozen wizards to work full time jobs.
Taking it a step forward, you wouldn't even need to train high level wizards. Use diversity of skills and factory line rules. Have wizards who specifically skilled at certain jobs.
Low level wizard would move the majority of the dirt, while a few mid level wizards explode any difficult rocks.

Basic rules of economy of scale.

-- But Wizards are Rare!

Well, Wizards are literally a product of education. Nearly anyone can become a Wizard.
So if a large factory style organization came about who needed Wizards, they could literally start an in house school to teach their workers what is needed.
Essentially what China does when hiring people to do tasks that require high education. They teach the specific task they need, and basically nothing else.

So yea... Magic

Well, I think you misunderstand how economy, employment and D&D magic work, so...

One, if someone's a Wizard, they can easily get a lot of money in other ways than digging in a mine. As a result, they have no reason to be in the mining industry unless it pays enough to make it attractive despite the conditions. Which means spells won't be cheap.

Two, nothing about what you've said change what I said. There is very little affordable magic that can help with mining. There is no "diversity of skills" here. Only an handful of spells can help you, and each Wizard can at maximum cast them less than a dozen of time, and only slightly more if you're somehow employing high level mages.

Three, no, it would be considerably more costly to have a dozen wizards work full time. Even if they make you pay less in exchange to regular employment, they still have every reason to ask a lot of money for their services.

Four, what you're describing is basically how the Hobgoblins train their war casters (who basically learn nothing but destructive magic and a few things to gain battle advantage), but the thing is, even if you have the aptitudes to learn magic to a satisfactory level, it still takes years of difficult training to be capable to do it.

So no, not magic.

[Tanarii]

Mold Earth cantrip would probably be useful for surface mines, until you got down to the rock.

Not saying that's enough to justify mass training up Mining Wizards. Just that it'd be useful as a preliminary to some types of mining.

[Dappershire]

Any gems or jewels with any magic residue is going to drop in value drastically.

You think a player is the first person to enlarge a gem in order to sell it off at higher worth.

A fantasy world would be remiss if it didn't train its jewelers to see past that stuff.

Even using mages to mine, might be counter productive. "Oh, they only uses magic to get the gems. Honest." might not go over so well at the Jeweler's guild.

That being said, finding a rare gem the size of my fist in a Dwarven shrine vault is a fond memory. Couldn't sell it, because no one could afford to buy it. They could afford assassins though. Lots and lots of goddamned assassins.

[Unoriginal]

Any gems or jewels with any magic residue is going to drop in value drastically.

You think a player is the first person to enlarge a gem in order to sell it off at higher worth.

A fantasy world would be remiss if it didn't train its jewelers to see past that stuff.

Even using mages to mine, might be counter productive. "Oh, they only uses magic to get the gems. Honest." might not go over so well at the Jeweler's guild.

That being said, finding a rare gem the size of my fist in a Dwarven shrine vault is a fond memory. Couldn't sell it, because no one could afford to buy it. They could afford assassins though. Lots and lots of goddamned assassins.

Did you have the gem made into a mace's head to bash the assassins' head with?

Going full Greasus Goldtooth could be fun

[Anonymouswizard]

Any gems or jewels with any magic residue is going to drop in value drastically.

You think a player is the first person to enlarge a gem in order to sell it off at higher worth.

A fantasy world would be remiss if it didn't train its jewelers to see past that stuff.

Even using mages to mine, might be counter productive. "Oh, they only uses magic to get the gems. Honest." might not go over so well at the Jeweler's guild.

That being said, finding a rare gem the size of my fist in a Dwarven shrine vault is a fond memory. Couldn't sell it, because no one could afford to buy it. They could afford assassins though. Lots and lots of goddamned assassins.

Actually, considering how expensive having spells cast is, especially as you hit higher levels and caster levels, it's entirely probable that wizards often sell gems attained by magic for funds.

The difference is that a gem located and recovered by magic (e.g. from the plane of earth, or from a magic enhanced mine) won't have the aura a gem affected by magic will. Very few spells of this sort have an instantaneous duration, so you could get around most 'tricks' with goggles of detect magic and refusing to buy any gems currently radiating magic.

Note that a world with enough magic to use it for mining it would be weird for gems to have not ever had spells cast on them, but in D&D land there is a difference between 'was affect by magic in the past', 'is affected by magic now' and 'is magical' (which is worth even more than the gems not radiating magic, but requires seperate gloves of identify to determine what it does and therefore how much it's worth).

While a D&D setting might not be magitech, it will be affected by the magic there is, and that includes coming up with a way to distinguish 'currently under an Enlarge spell' and 'previously had identify cast on it'.

[Corsair14]

As someone who actually does lapidary work on a variety of stone types I am butting my head in here. Gemstones technically can be any kind of stone. You can have granite as a gemstone, wont be very valuable but they can be very pretty. Diamonds are fairly common both today and back in the day, they are mined by the ton for many industrial uses and very very few are nice enough go off to those cartel storage vaults so they can manipulate the market value. In the middle ages diamonds weren't actually that valuable compared to rubies and sapphires, part of this was the difficulty in working it, but the other part was a lack of demand since they had no color and were considered boring. Meanwhile colorful stones like opal had immense value to the point where a Roman senator chose exile rather than hand over his beautiful opal ring to the Emperor. Carnelian, sodalite, lapis lazuli, and turquoise are fairly commonly worked gemstones of antiquity. The sources are fairly easy to get to, stone is soft enough to work readily, and they are colorful enough to have a decent demand. <edit> Jade I think after the fact would be the preferred stone for this, easiest to get the value up and its kind of a staple in fantasy worlds and many ancient cultures.

With magic accessible to do the required mending(that spell would make my life so much easier and save so many beautiful but flawed stones) the harder part of this component isn't the gemstone, I can see a large carnelian worked with magic and heat treatment being worth 150gp, or maybe some other more exotic stone like jade which was also common but not breaking the bank, being relatively easy to come by. Unless you are running a really high magic level game world, the undead eye would be the hard part. Its not like you can simply go out at night and find a zombie in the graveyard wandering around(even in Ravenloft its pushing it). A hedgewizard's shop might have one in a bottle for sale. You can probably go find some ancient crypt somewhere and get some. But realistically undead just are not that common and 99% of the population has only heard about them in stories and myths and just knows they exist(like we know Santa exists) so finding one quickly without contacts that can supply them would be fairly difficult.

[Tanarii]

Cool, thanks for your comments Corsair14, interesting to hear from someone that actually knows gems.

Btw the DMG, which was almost certainly made by people that know a lot less about gems than you, lists the following example 100gp gems:
Amber (transparent watery gold to rich gold)
Amethyst (transparent deep purple)
Chrysoberyl (transparent yellow-green to pale
green)
Coral (opaque Crimson)
Garnet (transparent red, brown-green , or violet)
jade (translucent light green, deep green , or white)
jet (opaque deep black)
Pearl (opaque lustrous white , yellow, or pink)
Spinel (transparent red, red-brown, or deep green)
Tourmaline (transparent pale green , blue, brown , or red)

[Corsair14]

Thats a very generic listing, not really surprised. Amethyst is really cheap as its stupidly common. Jade is more rare and far more valuable, especially in Asian cultures. I coral might be but you would have a really hard time finding coral big enough for the purposes of this. Which also plays into why I replied and promptly lost my train of thought. The list is nice but doesn't show the size or quality. How big is that 100gp piece of jade? In British Columbia you can find small nuggets in rivers all the way up to multi-ton boulders, most of which gets sent over to China for their 400,000 jade cutters to work on(not exaggerating or making up that number btw). I have some 10 pound chunks of amethyst that I maybe paid about 10 bucks for while the same size in average jade would go for $200+ and good jade = $1000s.

Pearls, common pearls are probably correct. High end or special pearls with color and you are talking major value.
How did Jet even make this list? Its used as one of several cheap backings to give thin opals(called doublets or triplets) some structure to them since opal is so fragile.

[krugaan]

I don't know, I think you could do a lot with low level spells:

Mold Earth: obviously, make berms, clear terrain, shore up mines, excavate, etc.

Shape Water: move slurry, push water into cracks, freeze it to break rocks, etc

Locate Object (bard): gemstones! veins of ore, etc! surveying made easy.

Tenser's Floating Disk: 500 pound forklift that requires minimal energy to move!

Hmmm... there are less useful ones than I thought.

[furby076]

1. This is a game. 2. The game makers probably have no gem experience.

I was young, but grew up in a jewelers family. My dad was the jeweler


I mean...

Technically Gemstones have no real value in real life
They are just fake values that the company who owns a monopoly on them artificially sets while keeping a vault/warehouse of gemstones so massive that if it was released onto the open market... The price of a diamond the size of your fist would probably plummet from millions to a $20 bill.

Nothing has value unless its assigned value. Your car is technically valueless, unless someone is handing you money for it.,then your car is valued at that. Also, that money has no value except in our belief that it has value. Which brings us to intrinsic value. Diamonds have little intrinsic value (they do for some science research, industry, and some other applications. ...but thats it. And yes, demand and supply help drive value, ,plus marketing, plus sentiment.... but, diamonds for a long time have had much value in this world. look at Englands crown jewels. You think the past monarchs would have been made a grown of diamonds (and other gems) if society didn't place value on them?


Yeah, add to that the fact that synthetic diamonds are relatively easy to make and can be extremely high quality (as you have better control over the carbon to other stuff ratio) diamonds really should be dirt cheap. I've used this in designing settings before, including a science fiction one where diamonds are only considered valuable on Earth and just considered a useful resource elsewhere. Also a fantasy setting where diamonds are insanely common (as in mining for metal meant you had to deal with a lot of useless diamonds), to the point where their main value is as spell components (and I considered having the copper piece equivalent as a disc of diamond a couple of mm thick in the center called a bit, could be used as a sling bullet if you were too stingy to buy them). GP values were switched to rough diameter values, with component diamonds being spheres or occasionally cubes, and almost every spell required a diamond to cast.

Synthetic diamonds are not easy to make, and jewelers can tell a synth diamond from a real one. Also, by law, synth diamonds have to be advertised as such. So why will a real diamond have more value than a fake one? Sentiment i guess. Plus people are typically willing to pay more for authentic vs manufactured (e.g. hand made sweater vs machine made). Most people want to get real diamonds for that romantic gesture. Your experience may vary, but i promise you, most of the world does not agree with you or your spouse. Evidence is the unscathed prices of diamonds. Btw, synth diamond prices are not much cheaper than natural diamonds. Look up prices. Manufactured vs natural.


Lastly, while a diamond the size of an eyeball would be incredibly rare in the real world (lets ignore the dnd world), quality is king. If someone finds a 2 inch diameter diamond full of cracks, coal, discoloration, etc then the gem smith will cut that into smaller pieces that will look great.

[Talamare]

Synthetic diamonds are not easy to make, and jewelers can tell a synth diamond from a real one. Also, by law, synth diamonds have to be advertised as such. So why will a real diamond have more value than a fake one? Sentiment i guess. Plus people are typically willing to pay more for authentic vs manufactured (e.g. hand made sweater vs machine made). Most people want to get real diamonds for that romantic gesture. Your experience may vary, but i promise you, most of the world does not agree with you or your spouse. Evidence is the unscathed prices of diamonds. Btw, synth diamond prices are not much cheaper than natural diamonds. Look up prices. Manufactured vs natural.


Lastly, while a diamond the size of an eyeball would be incredibly rare in the real world (lets ignore the dnd world), quality is king. If someone finds a 2 inch diameter diamond full of cracks, coal, discoloration, etc then the gem smith will cut that into smaller pieces that will look great.

The quality of Synthetic Diamonds are getting significantly better by the year. It's quickly becoming that the way you tell the 2 apart from each other is that the Synthetic Diamond will be a higher quality and more (arguably) perfect than a Real Diamond.

The price of Synths being high is partially because of the fact that the world is still perpetuating this fake ... intrinsic... value on Diamonds. Otherwise if all companies were allowed to freely manufacture Diamonds, their price would plummet.

[Slipperychicken]

I prefer when necromancers just used Black Onyx for this stuff.

[Quoxis]

All this talk about diamonds has given me ideas for settings/campaign quests:

- an alchemist has invented a way to magically alter coal to diamonds and now needs you to guard him, because the dwarves are sending assassins to get rid of this danger to their monopoly on wizard's supplies

-the opposite: a bunch of dwarf miners send you to get rid of the alchemist one way or another to ensure their monopoly, maybe even by telling the adventurers the artificial gems pose a danger to the caster etc.

- a world where diamonds/gems are rare and fought over, as they are the only way for most to get resurrected - the rich live and die without any fear of death because they have pocket clerics with backpacks full of diamonds around at all times, while adventurers kill each other over the rare components

[Anonymouswizard]

Synthetic diamonds are not easy to make, and jewelers can tell a synth diamond from a real one. Also, by law, synth diamonds have to be advertised as such. So why will a real diamond have more value than a fake one? Sentiment i guess. Plus people are typically willing to pay more for authentic vs manufactured (e.g. hand made sweater vs machine made). Most people want to get real diamonds for that romantic gesture. Your experience may vary, but i promise you, most of the world does not agree with you or your spouse. Evidence is the unscathed prices of diamonds. Btw, synth diamond prices are not much cheaper than natural diamonds. Look up prices. Manufactured vs natural.

First off, synthetic diamonds are 'real' diamonds, so can we stop using that term. There is no difference between the structures that make up a natural diamond and those that make up a synthetic diamond, disregarding impurities in both of them. It was also years since I last researched this, but I remember even back in the early 2010s reading about how synthetic diamonds tended to be purer carbon, although I'll admit I didn't use academic resources. A natural diamond (hereby defined as one where the carbon was not arranged by artificial processes, but does include cutting and other adjustments) is worth more than a synthetic diamond because we're continually told it is, not because it's more authentic.

I'll also note that I highly suspect that most synthetic diamonds aren't generated for applications in jewelry (after another five minutes of research to check things out), which might impact the gems available as spell components depending on the qualities needed.

Arguably your 'authentic vs manufactured' example could also be seen as reflecting the number of work hours being put in by a human (significantly higher per jumper for hand made garments).

Plus why is spending a lot of money seen as romantic? While I can understand the desire for a symbol there seems to be a lot of stigma attached to money spent on it. I'd honestly much rather skip the gem entirely, and if I can help make the ring myself (I have vague plans, which I'm keeping very quiet from my girlfriend because nothing's going to happen for at least a couple of years).


Lastly, while a diamond the size of an eyeball would be incredibly rare in the real world (lets ignore the dnd world), quality is king. If someone finds a 2 inch diameter diamond full of cracks, coal, discoloration, etc then the gem smith will cut that into smaller pieces that will look great.

Of course, if the value of diamond as a material was crashed, cut gems still have aesthetic value. Heck, I'll even admit that a lot of work goes into turning diamonds into nice gemstones, and that in and of itself should make the gem worth something.

But I was more focusing on diamond as a material than cut gemstones, although getting quite a few bits mixed it.

Also, it's entirely possible that that 2 inch diamond, even with all it's imperfections, is good enough for spell components. Such stuff is never really spelt out, even down to if they gem has to be cut.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, we've tap-danced up and down the potential topics contained herein, but I think this is the key one:


I've always kind of assumed that D&D gems and coins were larger than life for their 'value',

My inclination is that they are exactly as big or as small as each individual writer or artist imagines, but that the consensus is indeed well outside the bounds of reasonable. Whether that means that X00 gp gems are supposed to be like those at the end of Goonies, like Scrooge McDuck finds in his comics/cartoons, or just where every diamond the PCs find is the Hope Diamond.

But my main point is that I think it is completely context-dependent without consistency (D&D economy inconsistent? Who would have thought). It depends on whether you are trying to encase an eyeball in it, wear it on a ring on your finger, or grind it into a drink for a magic potion (and, of course, the volume of potions tends to shrink and grow as the narrative demands require them to).



Technically Gemstones have no real value in real life
Value is not an intrinsic quality. It literally means 'how much people are willing to pay for this.' When the revolution comes and the diamond monopolists are the first with their backs to the wall, diamonds will have a different value... but so will everything else.


Pearls, common pearls are probably correct. High end or special pearls with color and you are talking major value.

My understanding is that back in the day (so same time as diamonds were not so valuable), pearls were more valued. I'm certainly talking Europe, so part of it might be imported luxury-induced rarity, but I think pearl farming might have significantly altered the value in the last century or two


How did Jet even make this list? Its used as one of several cheap backings to give thin opals(called doublets or triplets) some structure to them since opal is so fragile.

It was in the AD&D and 2e DMGs, so I assume it is a holdover from previous editions (which were definitely not written by gem experts).


Plus why is spending a lot of money seen as romantic?

Because you are showing investment/sacrifice/effort-put-into a relationship?


While I can understand the desire for a symbol there seems to be a lot of stigma attached to money spent on it.

Yes, it is a readily-to-anyone-and-everyone communication (i.e. symbol) of the investment (in terms everyone can identify) in one's investment in one's partner.


I'd honestly much rather skip the gem entirely, and if I can help make the ring myself

If that showcases (to all the people whom your girlfriend cares about, and let's not pretend that people don't care what others think) an equal investiture in time and effort, then this is a wonderful, personalized gesture. I am all for telling De Beers to shove it. I'm just a little perplexed, because it seems like you are mildly miffed that symbols are, well, symbolic.

[Corsair14]

Diamonds are also a status symbol from the girls who wear them. I had an ex who was far more concerned about what her co-workers thought of her ring than the symbol itself. I remember when we were looking she mindlessly said as she looked through a glass countertop "I will only accept a ring of 2-3ct...." the clerk jerked his head up and looked at me and mouthed "RUN!" I was on GI Bill at the time and there was no way I could afford that. And yes she became an ex before a ring was bought. Gold diggers value the ring size simply to show off. My wife now is fairly rational about it. She told me up front she didn't want a big diamond ring because she didn't want to get knocked over the head or have to go through a mess in getting it stolen. So I got her a smaller one and she wears a fake synthetic that is much bigger and looser so if she does get robbed she has no issue removing it and handing it over and its still flashy and if someone asks if the ring I got her is real, depending on how they word it she isn't lying when she says yes.

Remember, until relatively recently(last couple hundred years) diamonds had less value than rubies or sapphires simply because they were hard to work to make look good. They didn't become a wedding thing until the Victorians and still not really popularized until marketing became a thing and the rise of the cartels. Even still, buying one from a jewelry store and you are paying significantly more than its actually worth on the market(that you can sell it for), worse than a car actually.

I differentiate synthetic/fake from real because there is much more skill needed to work plus the rarity of natural stones versus lab created stuff. Opals are a big thing I work on and I despise synthetic opals. I don't have an issue selling my stuff but I hate hearing people ask why those opals over there are so much more colorful. Synthetics/fakes are very consistent. That's the biggest way to visually tell them a part. The nicest black opal is still going to be less consistent than a synthetic black opal. Price wise you can see several thousand dollars per carat for natural vs tens per carat for synthetic, which is also a really easy way to tell the difference. Unlike diamonds, there is no law that says they have to be identified as synthetic although Australia is pushing for one. Synthetic also has colors that don't exist in real opal like supposed pink opals in rings that keep popping up in my facebook feed because of data mining. They don't come that color and if they did, the price would be far higher than the suckers they get to buy them off of facebook pay for them. If you really want to see some high end opals and how they cut them, go look up SEDA Opals on FB. He has some cool videos on them that even though I have been doing it awhile, I still like watching his work. We don't get the good rough in the US that they have there so I can be jealous of their access. Like jade, the Asian buyers on site gobble anything really decent up before it hits the open market. Opal mining, the only job where you can literally be so poor you live in your pickup truck in the middle of the Outback that morning, make a good strike with your pick axe before noon, and be a millionaire by dinner.

[Anonymouswizard]

Because you are showing investment/sacrifice/effort-put-into a relationship?

So spending money is something that can represent the time and effort put into a relationship? I mean, I get the entire symbol, and think it's nice, but I falter at the idea everybody has that the best representation is spending lots of money.


Yes, it is a readily-to-anyone-and-everyone communication (i.e. symbol) of the investment (in terms everyone can identify) in one's investment in one's partner.

And in all honesty? One diamond ring pretty much looks like another diamond ring to me, and also looks like a ring incorporating other clear gemstones to me. I can really only tell relative worth by the number of shiny stones on the shiny metal.


If that showcases (to all the people whom your girlfriend cares about, and let's not pretend that people don't care what others think) an equal investiture in time and effort, then this is a wonderful, personalized gesture. I am all for telling De Beers to shove it. I'm just a little perplexed, because it seems like you are mildly miffed that symbols are, well, symbolic.

To be honest, she's noted a lack of care as far as engagement rings go, and just wants one for the marriage, so we'll talk about it when it actually comes around.

It's like, I get that it represents an investment, but making the investment a lot of money seems wrong to me. I don't feel like 'I spent a lot of money on this' is actually symbolic of 'I've invested time and effort into this relationship and want to continue doing so'.

(Hilariously I am now getting adverts for engagement rings on YouTube, it's time to go and alter my ad preferences again.)

EDIT: I should point I that I don't give two darns about your 'real gem' superiority. The same structure of atoms is the same structure of atoms, no matter how they came to be (now, the fact that we can use processes to make a different structure we then claim is the same is a different story). A synthetic gemstone is a real one, because there's no difference in the fundamental structure. Now, talking about 'natural' gemstones is fine, because it's not saying that two identical gemstones are inherently different because they were made by different processes, it's just saying that it was made by geological processes instead of the processes used for synthetic/manufactured gemstones. People preferring natural gemstones is also completely fine, but the idea of them being the only real gems is, I'm sorry, just an attempt to convince people that synthetics are worth less (which they may be, I have no idea how the costs to acquire a synthetic diamond differ to the costs to acquire an equivalent natural diamond, but that has nothing to do with real gemness).

[sir_argo]

Also, nothing says it has to be a human eyeball. Just an eyeball. An eyeball from an undead mouse would work just as fine.

This is kinda one of my pet peeves. In 5e, the Animate Dead spell specifically says a "Medium or Small humanoid". When we run across that zombie giant, or that lich riding a skeletal horse, how did that get created? I think they blew it by restricting it to humanoid.

[Willie the Duck]

So spending money is something that can represent the time and effort put into a relationship? I mean, I get the entire symbol, and think it's nice, but I falter at the idea everybody has that the best representation is spending lots of money.

'I have enough money (/resources) that I can afford to spend some on this frivolous, symbolic expenditure' is one of the most basic, primordial status gestures possible. We've been making that gesture since before recorded history. I'm not saying it is a good or bad thing, only that it is understandable.


It's like, I get that it represents an investment, but making the investment a lot of money seems wrong to me. I don't feel like 'I spent a lot of money on this' is actually symbolic of 'I've invested time and effort into this relationship and want to continue doing so'.

No, it's a social norm. It matters only as much as you (two) feel the need to communicate your investment in such social norms back to your society. Once we start personalizing this though, we're not discussing wealth anymore, because wealth is social.

And D&D (that's right, we were talking about D&D wealth), they value gems as wealth.


I don't give two darns about your 'real gem' superiority

And neither would a D&D world (at least until you flood the economy with synthetic gems). Snarfquest, a delightful little comic by Larry Elmore (and where I got my handle/screanname), the titular hero does just that--joins a spacefaring society, then comes back to his homeworld and buys up the best stuff using synthetic diamonds. Fun story, bad for a D&D game played therein.

[Tanarii]

I prefer when necromancers just used Black Onyx for this stuff.This made me go read what exactly a Black Onyx is.

Should flame loving evokers prefer sardonyx?


Well, we've tap-danced up and down the potential topics contained herein, but I think this is the key one:



My inclination is that they are exactly as big or as small as each individual writer or artist imagines, but that the consensus is indeed well outside the bounds of reasonable. Whether that means that X00 gp gems are supposed to be like those at the end of Goonies, like Scrooge McDuck finds in his comics/cartoons, or just where every diamond the PCs find is the Hope Diamond. yeah, the goonies treasure looks about right. Huge coins and gems. Otoh the super-huge gold coins in Pirates (first movie) are about what I think of for BECMI, where ten coins make up a pound instead of fifty.


But my main point is that I think it is completely context-dependent without consistency (D&D economy inconsistent? Who would have thought). It depends on whether you are trying to encase an eyeball in it, wear it on a ring on your finger, or grind it into a drink for a magic potion (and, of course, the volume of potions tends to shrink and grow as the narrative demands require them to).True dat. Not only that, but I'm sure players envision coins and gem differently from me.

In fact, I think I'll ask a few what they envision them as in today's session. :smallbiggrin:


It was in the AD&D and 2e DMGs, so I assume it is a holdover from previous editions (which were definitely not written by gem experts). Huge chunks of the 5e PHB & DMG have obvious roots in AD&D, sometimes filtered through 3e because d20 mechanic. One of the things I love about 5e is how it feels so obviously inspired by old-school. Although I'm largely inclined to see it that way because from the lead developer told us that was his inspiration multiple times.

[Corsair14]

I always find it even more amusing when PCs are in a natural cave or mine and find large sparkling cut gemstones instead of rough. Most people wouldn't be able to tell a natural ruby or sapphire from any other piece of reddish or greyish rock. 7 Dwarfs is a great thing when they mine giant fully cut gemstones. Yet you never see rough in treasure troves or can find it in towns.

[Unoriginal]

Yet you never see rough in treasure troves or can find it in towns.

I don't remember where it was, but I'm pretty sure I've seen uncut gems as a treasure at least once.

In any case, if my PCs ever get in a situation where it doesn't make sense to find rough gems and not cut ones, they won't find cut gems.

[Willie the Duck]

In any case, if my PCs ever get in a situation where it doesn't make sense to find rough gems and not cut ones, they won't find cut gems.

Gold-rich ore would also be possible, if you are really adventuring in a mine. Or some kind of pre-process spice... pods, bark, beans?

[Unoriginal]

Gold-rich ore would also be possible, if you are really adventuring in a mine. Or some kind of pre-process spice... pods, bark, beans?

Well sure.

Also something to consider: gem dust is probably used in those expensive inks for spellbooks and spell scrolls.

[krugaan]

Gold-rich ore would also be possible, if you are really adventuring in a mine. Or some kind of pre-process spice... pods, bark, beans?

What's all this talk about pods and bark?

Trees don't grow on Arrakis.