Let's Talk about AC Tanking

[PeteNutButter]

Barbarians generally win the Tank of the Edition Award due to the ability to have resistance to most or nearly all damage. (For the purposes of this thread I'm speaking of tanking in the aspect of ability to withstand enemy attacks, by avoidance and/or resistance. Let's ignore the whole aspect of aggro and enemy control.)

So for any ol' school non-barbarian plate lover AC is all you have [to mitigate attacks], but they say AC falls apart by late mid to high level. Is it true? How much AC do you need to effectively withstand enemy assaults as good as a barbarian might? Is it practically achievable?

I did a bunch of spreadsheet breakdowns and it comes down to a pretty simple thing. Since the barbarian takes half damage the AC tank needs to get hit half as often. If the barbarian is expected to recklessly attack (and they won't always). They tend to get hit ~80% of the time. So the AC tank needs to be in the range of taking hits only 40% of the time to match the reckless barbarian's durability.

In order to get hit only 40% of the time by a monster 2 CRs above his level the AC tank needs an AC of 18 + (PC level/3).

So the next time someone asks, "What's a good AC at x level?" Tell them, "18 + x/3."

The real problem is the DMG and MM don't at all agree. Just thumbing through the MM, I see the Balor. It's a CR 19 which means it's attack bonus should be around +10 (according to the DMG), but it's really a whopping +14. That's a big difference in bounded accuracy. That means our level 17 AC tank needs an AC of 28 to hit that 40% mark, instead of the advertised 24. Our poor AC tank can be hit twice as often, sustaining twice as much damage as he should per the DMG chart. The MM is rife with monsters that have massively overpowered attack bonuses for their CR (some have weaker defenses to potentially make up for it).

It's largely because of this that AC falls behind the barbarian ragesistance.


-Barbarians can also be AC tanks, and often will not recklessly attack when low on hp.
-Barbarians have more linear damage received, while the AC tank can often see damage spike problems, going several rounds not getting hit by mooks at all until getting laid out by a few lucky hits.
-AC points get harder and harder to increase the higher you go, making the uphill battle for AC tank ever a struggle.
-One cannot hope to come close to the AC numbers necessary without magic items (an optional feature).
-Many DMs probably intentionally avoid giving out the magic items necessary to keep the AC up as it can seem frustrating never hitting PCs from behind the screen.
-If the AC tank has access to a way to give foes disadvantage to hit them, such as spells or bonus action dodge, the AC tank becomes vastly more viable.
-AC tanking works better work more numerous enemies with low attack bonuses, while ragesistence tanking works better with singular deadly monsters. If your DM favors mooks you can probably get away with 17 + level/x. Conversely if the DM favors large single deadly monsters, the AC tank will probably need more like 19 or even 20 + level/3.
So folks, what experiences do you have with AC tanks into later levels? Do they become pointless pincushions or do they continue to withstand enemy armies?

[polymphus]

So, we were rolling stats and I kinda got crazy lucky on my monk: 18 Dex, 18 Wis and uh ... 8 Con. As a kenku, that meant 19AC at lvl1 and 20AC from lvl4 onwards. It also meant hilariously low HP.

I go down basically every fight. I've come to realise that AC can mitigate certain damage from certain enemies, but it really isn't the be-all-and-end-all. The big offender is spells: at lvl6, I got 1-shot-KOd by a Cone of Cold. So much damage in 5e just circumvents AC entirely, even when you've got excellent dex saves and evasion. Even then, above about CR6, monsters have decent odds of beating AC20.

What I wouldn't give for a barb's resistances and HP.

[Talamare]

The thing about AC tanking as well is that they are completely reliant on finding +# gear

If your DM doesn't provide it, they are basically trash.

Barbarian performs equally well with or without it
Also, Barbarians can AC tank as well...

[Dimers]

So for any ol' school non-barbarian plate lover AC is all you have

(Or buckets of temp hit points, or healing, or imposing disadvantage on attackers, or to a limited degree Uncanny Dodge)

[Chugger]

A sorcadin can - given enough sor pts - do some pretty crazy stuff.

Plate and shield is what - ac 20? With def FS, a +1 shield and some sort of +1 protection item, that's AC 23. Cast shield and that's ac 28 for a round. In AL a +1 shield and iirc a cloak of prot can be bought for around 1000gp and 100 dt after lvl 5 and doing a secret mission - so not impossible to get by tier 2.

And it's just starting. The sorcadin can quicken a SCAG cantrip like bb or gfb (or a fireball) and do Blade Ward (which iirc halves all melee damage) - so burning the reaction to cast shield that's ac 28 and half damage while doing at least some damage. I think this sorc can still DS the scag cantrips because a "melee attack" is still technically part of the the spell. That's more if the sorc went pal 2/sor x. If we went pal 6/sor x (or close to this) then this pal would prolly do quicken blade ward and do two melee attacks, using extra attack, and DS those that hit.

The question becomes how long can the sorcadin keep this up? And if every single fight between long rests is a nail-biter, we know the answer - but if a sorc really only needs this lvl of tankiness on major fights or the key rounds of a boss fight, they can easily do it. At higher levels they have tons of sp's because they can harvest them from higher slots.

Anyway, have not played one this way - ymmv - not 100% I'm getting this right - but I'd think it is worth looking into, if you're interested in tanking.

[agnos]

You need to remember there are 3 defensive stats (AC, Saves, HP) not just AC. Barbs are great HP tanks (especially bears), but they’re designed to be Striker/Tanks. Toe to toe they’re great, but for the most part they’re **** against spells. The best rule of thumb is 11 + Level + 1 per encounter difficulty (easy = 1, moderate = 2, hard = 3, etc) + 1 per encounter difficulty if a “boss”. But this is really just an average and breaks down at the ends. Very Tough to impossible encounters often require far more AC. For example, Ancient Dragons you can start facing around level 10 often have +20 or so to attack which would require ~33 AC to be effective even though the rule would cap at 31 for “impossible”.

My newest Sorcadin finishing CoS caps at 25 base. For the most part, I can ignore the “trash”; barbs generally don’t get to ignore the trash because their AC usually caps around 15-17 and they Reckless. Their trade off is they expend party resources when they wouldn’t usually be expended vs a different tank. They also don’t really get to control their spike damage and carry very little party utility.

[napoleon_in_rag]

A sorcadin can - given enough sor pts - do some pretty crazy stuff.

Plate and shield is what - ac 20? With def FS, a +1 shield and some sort of +1 protection item, that's AC 23. Cast shield and that's ac 28 for a round. In AL a +1 shield and iirc a cloak of prot can be bought for around 1000gp and 100 dt after lvl 5 and doing a secret mission - so not impossible to get by tier 2.

And it's just starting. The sorcadin can quicken a SCAG cantrip like bb or gfb (or a fireball) and do Blade Ward (which iirc halves all melee damage) - so burning the reaction to cast shield that's ac 28 and half damage while doing at least some damage. I think this sorc can still DS the scag cantrips because a "melee attack" is still technically part of the the spell. That's more if the sorc went pal 2/sor x. If we went pal 6/sor x (or close to this) then this pal would prolly do quicken blade ward and do two melee attacks, using extra attack, and DS those that hit.

The question becomes how long can the sorcadin keep this up? And if every single fight between long rests is a nail-biter, we know the answer - but if a sorc really only needs this lvl of tankiness on major fights or the key rounds of a boss fight, they can easily do it. At higher levels they have tons of sp's because they can harvest them from higher slots.

Anyway, have not played one this way - ymmv - not 100% I'm getting this right - but I'd think it is worth looking into, if you're interested in tanking.

I think Eldritch Knight is a better choice for Tank if you start at level 1. You can easily get a 26+ AC at level 3 with a Shield spell. An EK get the benefit of spells but is not solely dependent on spells like your Sorcadin. An EK will also have a lot more HP.

With your Sorcadin, you need to be starting at a higher level which is a problem with a lot of builds.

[Caelic]

I think Eldritch Knight is a better choice for Tank if you start at level 1. You can easily get a 26+ AC at level 3 with a Shield spell. An EK get the benefit of spells but is not solely dependent on spells like your Sorcadin. An EK will also have a lot more HP.



Not really, given a Draconic sorcerer. Keep in mind that the +1 hit point per level of sorcerer boosts the die average to 4.5. The EK will have, on average, one more hit point per hit die. Now, if you've got one of those EKs who says "Oh, I totally rolled all 10's and 9's on my hit dice!" then, yeah, he'll have more hit points--but on average, they're going to be pretty close.

[JellyPooga]

You need to remember there are 3 defensive stats (AC, Saves, HP) not just AC.

Which is why I consider Rogues to be one of the best defensive characters. If all you're concerned about is saving your own skin, then the Rogue does it best. Specifically, Arcane Trickster.

- They start with Dex Save proficiency; one of the Big 3. They later acquire Wis Save proficiency; another of the Big 3. The third, Con, can be acquired through the Resilient Feat.

- Uncanny Dodge and Evasion give them solid HP defence against both magic and mundane attacks. Add a voluntary focus on Con and strategic Racial choice (I recomend Hill Dwarf for the additional Con and HP to compensate the relatively low, but by no means terrible, d8 HD), HP can work very hard for a Rogue.

- Being Dex focused, they can look at having very high AC in conjunction with spells gained through Arcane Trickster. Spending a Feat on Medium Armour Proficiency to snag a shield is also an option to boost AC.

- Spellcasting offers some "get out of jail free" cards with the likes of Invisibility.

- Expertise in either Athletics or Acrobatics makes grappling a no-go against such a Rogue.

- Cunning Action to Hide, Dash or Disengage makes actually engaging a Rogue tricky, rendering actually having to consider the Defences of AC, Saves and HP a moot point. The best defence is, after all, to not be the target in the first place.

[PeteNutButter]

Good points and insights everyone. I feel like Shield spell is a must have for any AC tank in the long run, which is balanced as rage is also expending a resource.

What got me into making this thread (or rather doing all the number crunching for it) is my current character is a Paladin 6/Hexblade 3 with a 25 AC at level 9. I can at some point dip one (or more) into fighter to get defense FS and make it 26. Due to Aura of Protection and +1 cloak/ring saving throws are all averaging +9. I feel like I'm insanely hard to kill, but I'm hesitant to keep buffing AC when it will become unreliable later on.

I can also Shield of Faith to make the AC 27, and toss Shield on top of that for a total of 32. Would +1 be worth delaying progression in other classes? Plan was to go Paladin 6/hexblade 5 then back to paladin or into sorcerer, but I could squeeze a fighter level in somewhere. To be honest I'm tempted to squeeze in 3+ fighter levels for cavalier to encourage foes to focus my nigh unkillable ass.

I'm talking about my character in this other thread also: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542911-Paladin-Hexblade-Build-PEACH

[Caelic]

An interesting little oddity: the Kensai's +2 AC doesn't appear to be dependent on not wearing armor. Someone who's really looking to crunch out as much AC as possible could, in theory, pick up another two points here, though I have a hard time envisioning the build that would do it elegantly.

[PeteNutButter]

An interesting little oddity: the Kensai's +2 AC doesn't appear to be dependent on not wearing armor. Someone who's really looking to crunch out as much AC as possible could, in theory, pick up another two points here, though I have a hard time envisioning the build that would do it elegantly.

Yeah, since it requires unarmed strikes, I feel like it is feasible on a Lizardman or some such. The difference between a longsword attack and a bite attack is only 1 point, at least until you start getting into magical weapons.

I plotted out a Lizardfolk cavalier fighter with a four level kensei dip for this. It's a little MAD, but could work.

[Tanarii]

Bad assumptions:

A barbarian won't be using reckless attack all the time when raging.

An appropriate measure of CR for determining typical enemy AC or to hit is level+2, since that means a Deadly battle vs a solo, which is terribad encounter design. More reasonable is CR=level-3 for every day tanking, with some BBEG battles of Deadly, including some of minions, with BBEG being CR=level.

[PeteNutButter]

Bad assumptions:

A barbarian won't be using reckless attack all the time when raging.

I mention that in the considerations. If a barbarian isn't recklessly attacking, the AC tank needs probably another ~2-3 AC points to keep the same amount of damage resistance. If the barbarian is also going to be an AC tank, the only way the non-ragesistance tank can keep up is with disadvantage from things like Blur, Cloak of Displacement, bonus action dodging, or using uncanny dodge.



An appropriate measure of CR for determining typical enemy AC or to hit is level+2, since that means a Deadly battle vs a solo, which is terribad encounter design.

Who said anything about solo fighting? Very few games are only one player. I'm trying to focus as broadly as possible to come up with general guidance for "typical play."

There is nothing in the DMG or MM that suggests a 1:1 ratio for increase in attack bonuses. The MM does a fair job of following the DMG guidance which is more like 1 for every 3 or 4 levels, at least until mid level.



More reasonable is CR=level-3 for every day tanking, with some BBEG battles of Deadly, including some of minions, with BBEG being CR=level.

Since the AC tank is already good at fighting mooks, I focus my attention on the BBEG for what AC you need. With short rests and things like healing spirit, wearing down over the day isn't as much an issue, and the AC tank is best at that anyways. The only battle that is a challenge for an AC tank is the one that could kill him. That's why I focused on CR of level + 2. It's not uncommon for published adventures to take it as far as CR of party level + 4 for the BBEG. In Forge of Fury for instance you face a tough CR 7 monster at expected party level 3-4. The gaps get even bigger for higher level mods.

[History_buff]

College of swords bard with a three level dip into fighter makes a good evasion tank. Eldritch Knight gets you access to shield and absorb elements, fighting style, second wind, and action surge.

With 20 dex, studded leather, fighting style, and a shield you’re at 20 AC. Shield spell can get you to 25 AC. Defensive flourish gets you a d6 then a d8 to add to AC.

Warcaster feat lets you OA with booming blade for some stickiness.

Maximum potential AC with no magical armor at level 11, is 33.

Throw some +1 studded leather, +1 shield, cloak of protection, you’re looking at 36 AC.

Dex save proficiency with absorb elements lets you cut dragon breath and stuff by 3/4. It’s working out really well. Fun to play.

On top of that you’re only a couple levels behind on spell progression for a lot of benefit.

[Talamare]

I'm pretty sure there is no viable pure AC tank in this game

You need Magic or Damage Resistance to support your tanking

Paladin arguably does AC tanking the best, since they get +CHA to their Resistances.
Cleric probably follows in at 2nd place, Just because they are full casters able to support their Tanking.
EK or Bard is probably in 3rd place. EK is inherently tougher, while Bard has full spell support.

Obviously these 3 are in actually not 1st/2nd/3rd among all options, just among options that limit out the Barbarian, and ... maybe even the Rogue...

[Suicune]

You need to remember there are 3 defensive stats (AC, Saves, HP) not just AC. Barbs are great HP tanks (especially bears), but they’re designed to be Striker/Tanks. Toe to toe they’re great, but for the most part they’re **** against spells.

Every Barbarian gets Danger Sense, though. Sure, it's not the end-all be-all, but advantage against spells they can see (which I would consider most damage spells, like the previously-mentioned Cone of Cold) makes them better than a large amount of classes at avoiding big scary magic damage.

[furby076]

I feel cloak of displacement is under utilized. Barring that, the game really requires tanks to get plate +3 and shield +3, plus cloak of protection +3. In AL... goodluck with that

[Alatar]

I'm pretty sure there is no viable pure AC tank in this game

I agree. You could build a real tank in 4e, especially early in the game's lifecycle, when a defender could come out of a grueling encounter with more hit points than when he started, but 5e just does not provide one with the wherewithal to make a true tank.

Not that I'm complaining. Standing toe to toe and slogging it out is a dreary way to fight. Dancing in and out of the scrum is more fun, and 5e gives you lots of ways to do that. The champion does end up making a lot of death saves, of course, but friends don't let friends play champions.

The 5e barbarian comes closest to a true tank, which is a bit odd. I haven't played one yet. Looks kinda dull. Perhaps I've had my fill of tanks.

The fact that AC does not scale with attack bonuses does make tier 4 play problematic for a straight up martial build. If your opponents seem to never miss then it's probably time to pack it in.

[Davrix]

One dip into hexblade will nab you the shield spell. I would recomend at least 2 levels for the invocations or 3 leveled for the pact boon. However combine that with the conquest paladins fear lock down features and you have something very very nasty lv 9-11 mark

[Trippic]

I feel cloak of displacement is under utilized. Barring that, the game really requires tanks to get plate +3 and shield +3, plus cloak of protection +3. In AL... goodluck with that

thats a bit sad

[PeteNutButter]

I feel cloak of displacement is under utilized. Barring that, the game really requires tanks to get plate +3 and shield +3, plus cloak of protection +3. In AL... goodluck with that

thats a bit sad

My current AL character has 25 AC, which I can boost to 30 with shield spell. I can safely say that it’s as effective or better than rage at the moment (level 9). It’ll be less useful by tier 3, but I might end up trading between characters to grab that cloak of displacement if my AC stops working for me.

[Mjolnirbear]

There are other ways to mitigate damage other than AC and resistance. You impose disadvantage on attacks.

No one likes it cause Dodge takes up your action and no one likes doing nothing, but literally everyone has the option. It multiplies the impact of Resistance and AC. I played a warlock holding off two griffons and a fighter, by simply blocking access into a tunnel and dodging. My allies took them down. I had 15 hit points. Dodge saved our asses. Those gryphons (literally) ate the level 3 barbarian and level 3 rogue whom they encountered previously. I was a level 2 hexlock, with a rogue and out-of-spells cleric to protect.

Dodge won't always be the best option though. So find ways to impose disadvantage. Grapple-shoves. Pocket sand. About a billion spells. High ground?

[Talamare]

There are other ways to mitigate damage other than AC and resistance. You impose disadvantage on attacks.

No one likes it cause Dodge takes up your action and no one likes doing nothing, but literally everyone has the option. It multiplies the impact of Resistance and AC. I played a warlock holding off two griffons and a fighter, by simply blocking access into a tunnel and dodging. My allies took them down. I had 15 hit points. Dodge saved our asses. Those gryphons (literally) ate the level 3 barbarian and level 3 rogue whom they encountered previously. I was a level 2 hexlock, with a rogue and out-of-spells cleric to protect.

Dodge won't always be the best option though. So find ways to impose disadvantage. Grapple-shoves. Pocket sand. About a billion spells. High ground?

I mean... that would still be AC tanking tho
If you impose Disadvantage, but the guy hits you on a 2 or higher... then your Disadvantage didn't matter

and... that still doesn't protect you against the 2nd issue of AC Tanking
Damage from Saves

[Camman1984]

our barbarians tend to be death by 1000 cuts. sure they are great against that big boss with a huge attack bonus, but against mooks they have less of an advantage. our mid level cleric currently has an AC of 24, the barbarian has an AC of 17. most of the mooks at this level seem to be at around attack modifier +7/8 so the barbarian is hit on a 9/10 and the cleric is hit on a 17/18. This is a big difference and usually the barbarian ends up losing not hp than the AC tank.

the barbarian would also be more of a pain in this situation for the healers, where the AC tank bounced most of the damage completely, the barbarian required healing in a fight that probably didn't need to use that many resources.

I think the best ability comes in too early and is way way way too much better than any of the other barbarian specialities. it basically kills virtually every other barbarian concept dead.

i think the barbarian should be good in a fight as that is basically all they do, they bring nothing else to the table unless someone had a very specific concept in mind which usually weakens their combat prowess anyway. For example the tribal war musician who stuck a load of points into charisma instead of something more traditional.

[Drayrs]

I'm just going to leave this here:
https://imgur.com/a/DhD9K

I posted this a while ago, and I'm not sure if anybody noticed it. Probably useful for this discussion. Probabilities are in fractional form, so 0.9 == 90%. Monster stats are drawn from the SRD, so they are incomplete. If anybody has any questions about how the probabilities are calculated, just ask.

[Lombra]

So, we were rolling stats and I kinda got crazy lucky on my monk: 18 Dex, 18 Wis and uh ... 8 Con. As a kenku, that meant 19AC at lvl1 and 20AC from lvl4 onwards. It also meant hilariously low HP.

I go down basically every fight. I've come to realise that AC can mitigate certain damage from certain enemies, but it really isn't the be-all-and-end-all. The big offender is spells: at lvl6, I got 1-shot-KOd by a Cone of Cold. So much damage in 5e just circumvents AC entirely, even when you've got excellent dex saves and evasion. Even then, above about CR6, monsters have decent odds of beating AC20.

What I wouldn't give for a barb's resistances and HP.

I'm sorry but: why didn't you pump CON first? And: WTF? Cone of Cold at level 6? That's overkill dude!

On topic: an arcane trickster/bladesinger is probably the best AC tank, get to Uncanny dodge, and with a mix of bladesong and shield you'll end up having spikes of 27 AC, add on top of that spells like blur and you are very hard to hit.

[Talamare]

I'm sorry but: why didn't you pump CON first? And: WTF? Cone of Cold at level 6? That's overkill dude!

On topic: an arcane trickster/bladesinger is probably the best AC tank, get to Uncanny dodge, and with a mix of bladesong and shield you'll end up having spikes of 27 AC, add on top of that spells like blur and you are very hard to hit.

and vastly more important...
Access to the Absorb Elements spell

[Mjolnirbear]

I mean... that would still be AC tanking tho
If you impose Disadvantage, but the guy hits you on a 2 or higher... then your Disadvantage didn't matter

and... that still doesn't protect you against the 2nd issue of AC Tanking
Damage from Saves

I've never actually seen a monster with a +18 to attack, but then, my game/DM time so for is usually middle levels. Regardless, it's quite logical that there are situations any build will trip over. Immune to spells? So sad, casters. Lycanthropes? Let's hope someone remembered to silver their weapons. A monster with a hit bonus equal to your AC means don't get in melee range.

As for spells... You can't protect other people from spells unless you're, say, a paladin of the ancients. If the enemy spellcaster wants to hit your squishy rogue, he will. Whether you're AC or resistance you have no way to protect someone else from Hypnotic Pattern.

That resistance is strong is without doubt. But not quite universal. If you're in, say, a Tucker's Kobolds situation, resistance won't last long. Rage will wear out. And your AC as a barbarian is rarely exemplar, so you will get hit lots. Sure, they're only doing maybe two damage each, but when you're attacked by dozens of mooks being harder to hit will help you lots more.

[Talamare]

I've never actually seen a monster with a +18 to attack, but then, my game/DM time so for is usually middle levels. Regardless, it's quite logical that there are situations any build will trip over. Immune to spells? So sad, casters. Lycanthropes? Let's hope someone remembered to silver their weapons. A monster with a hit bonus equal to your AC means don't get in melee range.

As for spells... You can't protect other people from spells unless you're, say, a paladin of the ancients. If the enemy spellcaster wants to hit your squishy rogue, he will. Whether you're AC or resistance you have no way to protect someone else from Hypnotic Pattern.

That resistance is strong is without doubt. But not quite universal. If you're in, say, a Tucker's Kobolds situation, resistance won't last long. Rage will wear out. And your AC as a barbarian is rarely exemplar, so you will get hit lots. Sure, they're only doing maybe two damage each, but when you're attacked by dozens of mooks being harder to hit will help you lots more.

Tarrasque has +19 to Attack, altho a +18 would only be needed if you had 20 AC. You never stated how much AC you have, tho it wouldn't really matter. What I said was essentially just a blanket statement. Disadvantage relies on having good AC to work. The better your AC, the better it works.

There is actually nothing stopping a Barbarian from having good AC. So he can have Resistance against all damage in ADDITION to having good AC.
Now to reach the highest levels of AC, you do kinda of need a few spell support. Especially if you consider temporary AC benefits (read Shield spell).

Also, Rogues are one of the TANKIEST classes in the game against Spell Damage. Arguably Top 3, so the misconception of 'Squishy Rogue' isn't a great one.
Since again, there is nothing stopping a Rogue from having good AC... There is nothing really stopping a Rogue from being a well rounded main tank.

As far as Tucker's Kobold goes, their greatest strength was using a lot of traps. It wasn't just a boring endless swarm. In which case AC wouldn't do very much to help.

Altho you're not wrong against the important of Defense against Crowd Control. You actually do have a Defense against it. Eldritch Knights, one of the premiere Tank options, are able to eventually pick up Counter Spell to protect themselves it. As well as Paladins in General get huge bonuses to their Saves.

[JellyPooga]

Also, Rogues are one of the TANKIEST classes in the game against Spell Damage. Arguably Top 3, so the misconception of 'Squishy Rogue' isn't a great one.

Spell damage? Rogues are damned tanky vs.
practically any damage. It always makes me laugh when I read a post claiming that Rogues are in any way squishy. Between Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, good Dex AC, late game Wis Save proficiency, potential access to solid defensive spellcasting and a very high off-turn threat (probably the highest), the Rogue has possibly the best "tank" features of any Class. Look beyond the d8 HD, finesse weapons and light armour; Rogues can stick it in melee better than any Fighter, defensively speaking.

[djreynolds]

An eldritch knight in full plate with an AC of like 26 with the shield spell....... means no one is bothering to attack you sometimes

[LudicSavant]

A tank isn't just a character who can take a direct punch and live. A great tank is a character who actively inhibits the ability of the enemy to engage in effective offensive action of as many kinds as possible (not just direct hp attacks) against themselves and their party.

All the hp and AC in the world won't stop you from getting removed from the fight by a saving throw, for example. Nor will it stop enemies from just ignoring you and going for other characters.

[Talamare]

A tank isn't just a character who can take a direct punch and live. A great tank is a character who actively inhibits the ability of the enemy to engage in effective offensive action of as many kinds as possible (not just direct hp attacks) against themselves and their party.

I mean... Yes and No

A Tank that can't take a Hit is called a Controller
A Controller who can take a Hit is called a Damn Good Tank Son!

but if you're just able to survive and stand in the front directing a good portion of attacks onto you, or even acting as a speed bump to the enemies getting into the back line?
You may not be a great tank, but you're still a Tank.

[LudicSavant]

I mean... Yes and No

A Tank that can't take a Hit is called a Controller
A Controller who can take a Hit is called a Damn Good Tank Son!

but if you're just able to survive and stand in the front directing a good portion of attacks onto you, or even acting as a speed bump to the enemies getting into the back line?
You may not be a great tank, but you're still a Tank.

Sure, but the OP is talking about "tank of the edition" or "AC is all you have." It's not all you have. If you want to be a Damn Good Tank Son! you need to have more than hp and AC.

[PeteNutButter]

our barbarians tend to be death by 1000 cuts. sure they are great against that big boss with a huge attack bonus, but against mooks they have less of an advantage. our mid level cleric currently has an AC of 24, the barbarian has an AC of 17. most of the mooks at this level seem to be at around attack modifier +7/8 so the barbarian is hit on a 9/10 and the cleric is hit on a 17/18. This is a big difference and usually the barbarian ends up losing not hp than the AC tank.

the barbarian would also be more of a pain in this situation for the healers, where the AC tank bounced most of the damage completely, the barbarian required healing in a fight that probably didn't need to use that many resources.

I don’t disagree, but I find that the deadly fights in games tend to be one BBEG with maybe a few mooks. The fights throughout day beforehand are usually not at a high risk of party failure. It just makes plot sense. You need an antagonist in an adventure/campaign so usually when you fight them they are singularly tough.

On occasion the enemy might be an army or some such, but in a broad sense the BBEG is a single foe who generally if they make attack rolls will usually still have a good chance to hit the AC tank. At which point the AC tanks advantage is merely the potential conservation of resources up to that point. Which would be no small thing, except short rest healing kind of negates even that.

To sum up the AC tank is good where it’s not usually needed as much.


A tank isn't just a character who can take a direct punch and live. A great tank is a character who actively inhibits the ability of the enemy to engage in effective offensive action of as many kinds as possible (not just direct hp attacks) against themselves and their party.

All the hp and AC in the world won't stop you from getting removed from the fight by a saving throw, for example. Nor will it stop enemies from just ignoring you and going for other characters.

I did specifically mention in the OP that I'm talking about tanking as ability to withstand attacks. I acknowledged this to prevent these comments, and to move on the meat of the discussion. :smallbiggrin:


Sure, but the OP is talking about "tank of the edition" or "AC is all you have." It's not all you have. If you want to be a Damn Good Tank Son! you need to have more than hp and AC.

Again just comparing barbarian with non-rage tanking. It's a like to like comparison. Of course we all know you needs saves, etc. I even said before... my current AC tank has an average of +9 to all his saves. I think I've got it covered. It's not what I'm trying to talk about here. I'm talking specifically about the usefulness (or lack thereof) of AC Tanking.

[LudicSavant]

It's a like to like comparison.

Is it? Rage resistance and AC protect against different sets of threats (though said sets have some overlap). It's also worth noting that rage is a limited resource which isn't all that hard for an enemy to shut off (they just have to prevent you from landing an attack or taking damage for a turn). Moreover, it's not like you're a Barbarian who is deciding to give up rage in favor of AC... if you're giving up rage, you have a completely different kit. I'm not going to trade in rage for a suit of plate and a shield, I'm going to trade in rage for (for example) a suit of plate, a shield, a save-boosting aura, and a spell list. Or maybe just not trade in my rage at all and "AC tank" while still being a barbarian.

[Davrix]

This is why I want to play the conquest paladin with 3 levels into hexblade warlock and maybe 2 into fighter or just take a full 5 in warlock. It offers A LOT of AC and so much control with the right feats.

Lets look at the toolkit

Conquest by 7 gives you the aura to lock down any enemy to zero movement if they have the frighten condition. Between wrathful smite, your Channel divinity and the fear spell later on. Oh and you can take dragon-fear now as a feat, your going to either keep a whole bunch of targets pinned around you or force them all to stay spread out which will not be as useful in combat. I mean unless there all crossbowman but that be kind of a **** move by your DM to do that.

Even one level in hexblade grants you the shield spell and char for your weapon and attack bonus because you will be sword and board in this build hands down. This means you can dump all your bonsues into Char so spell DC is stupid high and your party members and you get a great bonus to your own saves from your aura. Which means +5 eventually to all saves on top of your stupid high AC

You can curse a single target to basically ruin his day and get crits on a 19.

two levels in warlock can get you the two invocations that make your blast cantrip push and pull targets by ten feet

Now look at feats with the above line of thought
Sentinel
Shield master
War Caster
Mage Slayer

While pumping Char to 20 as quickly as possible might be a good goal, the shear amount of control these feats offer in taking them is utterly insane. Especially when you think about Shield master and sentinel on top of your aura at 7. Shield master lets you knock a target prone as a bonus action and if there speed is zero they are unable to stand up which means they will have disadvantage on all attacks which then makes your AC worth even more.

War caster and Mage slayer are just icing on this control tank cake. Especially if you want to ruin caster days or channel a lot.

Oh an on a side note by Lv 10 providing you have at least a +1 armor and shield your looking at 23 AC if you take the defensive fighting style as your base, 25 with the concentration +2 Ac spell and 30 AC if needed with the reaction of the shield spell. And if you can get the DM to let you use the Mark rule from the DMG it just makes the build all the better.

Top it all off by taking the right pact and you can have a familiar that uses the help action on party members while your distracting the enemy and the extra short rest smite spell slots you will be the thing all enemies fear on the battlefield.

[SharkForce]

so, the funny thing about AC... the more you have, the more the next point is worth.

so, is it worth investing in AC still? well, first off, it's always worth it if the cost is low, because it will always help some. but the follow up question is probably "how much more AC am i going to be able to stack on top of this?" the more little bonuses to your AC you can stack up, the more they are all worth.

which is why i get a little worried when i start seeing all the little numeric bonuses creeping into 5e's design. i don't think you can make an unbeatable tank or anything like that yet, but if they keep adding these little things here and there, it's going to really start adding up...

[Asmotherion]

A single level of Barbarian is all that's really worth your time in order to AC "Tank"/Gish/Whatever. It's a very good option really, if you're a caster, and you're not interested in investing in Armor, and have a high Con for maintaining concentration on spells.

Still, if we're talking about AC, I find that whoever has the ability to cast the Shield Spell a fair amount of rounds (at least half the encounter) and has a respectable AC (Around 20) can be just as good in melee tanking provided he has the right tricks/synergy.

A cleric can access Shield with Magic Initiate, and Forge Domain can end up with around 25 AC when using Shield of Faith (and a 1 level dip for the Defence FS). Using the Shield Spell their AC buffs up to 30. And that's without accounting any magic items not provided by Class Featured.

Hexblade Warlocks get an easy AC of 19 (Medium Armor+2 from Dex+2 from Shield). Using Armor of Agathis and then going Sorlock for Additional Spell Slots to cast Shield (and refresh AoA) means they can also choose when they will be easy to hit or not, and Tank very well with an on/off AC of 24/19. Using the Divine Soul approach (and perhaps from first level for Con Saves), they can get access to Shield of Faith, buffing this even further to 21/26.

TL;DR
There are many great AC tanking builds, and I referance some Gish ones from Xenathar's. Barbarians are just one aproach to it, but they win no tournement really.

A rule of thumb that's especially true in 5e (the way I've experianced it) is that Barbarians will be out of Rages sooner than Casters will be out of Spell Slots.

[strangebloke]

Barbarian has great defensive abilities... When he's raging.

Otherwise he has HP, decent AC, and danger sense.

So you're better off comparing him to a moon druid when wildshaping or a sorcadin going Nova. Compared to those two, the bear bar is not so impressive.

[Oramac]

So folks, what experiences do you have with AC tanks into later levels? Do they become pointless pincushions or do they continue to withstand enemy armies?


A sorcadin can - given enough sor pts - do some pretty crazy stuff.

Plate and shield is what - ac 20? With def FS, a +1 shield and some sort of +1 protection item, that's AC 23. Cast shield and that's ac 28 for a round. In AL a +1 shield and iirc a cloak of prot can be bought for around 1000gp and 100 dt after lvl 5 and doing a secret mission - so not impossible to get by tier 2.

SNIP

I had great luck playing my Tempest Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493427-Tempest-Sorcerer-Tank) in SKT.

As Chugger pointed out, it's actually pretty easy to get a solid AC, especially with a Shield spell. Plus, the fantastic mobility and being a full-caster with Metamagic is really helpful. And it's just downright fun.