Mercantile Options in 3.5/PF

[Palanan]

What sort of feats, traits, and other character options would benefit someone who wants to go into business in a game setting?

I’m looking for anything that could help a non-magical character who wants to make a name (and a profit) in the world of commerce. I’m open to all official 3.5 and Paizo sources, and I’m interested in direct mechanical advantages (i.e. reduced cost for purchases) as well as mechanics which would lend themselves to mercantile applications (i.e. bonus to Appraise, community contacts, etc.).

Since this character will not use magic, I’m not looking for suggestions about abusing ladders or walls of salt. I’m looking for mechanical options that would give an edge to a character engaged in trade. I know there are a couple of feats involving simple bonuses to skill checks, and I think I’ve seen a merchant-specific feat that improves the percentage on resale, or something along those lines. But I'm sure there's more.

What else would be useful to an up-and-coming merchant prince?

[JustIgnoreMe]

Ladder abuse doesn't require any magic at all, just fyi. Buy 6ft ladder, remove rungs, sell two 6ft poles, repeat until you have books thrown at you.

[Zaq]

There’s the rules for running a business in DMG2, but my understanding is that they’re basically terrible.

It’s been a long time since I looked at them directly, but I have a vague memory of them being kind of like a watered-down Epic magic system in that they’re crazy weak/useless if you don’t abuse them and ridiculously unreasonably profitable if you do abuse them. That said, I don’t recall what the “abuse” looks like, and it’s also 100% possible that I’m misremembering and they’re just weak and stupid without being brokenly overpowered.

I do know that adventuring is more profitable than merchanting nearly 100% of the time, but that’s because the rules are primarily designed to focus on 3-6 murderhobos crashing through improbably treasure-filled dungeons rather than on activities that aren’t adventuring.

[stack]

Pathfinder has downtime rules; haven't used them or heard them discussed at any length. Believe they are on the SRD.

[daremetoidareyo]

there is a terrible merchant class in one of the faerun books. power of faerun probably.

the one feat that is crazy optimal is favored in guild: performer.

what you'll want to do, in my opinion, is max out knowledge local, profession X, and some social skills. so go rogue, possibly channeling rogue.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo
the one feat that is crazy optimal is favored in guild: performer.

Looks like this is in DMG2. How is it crazy-optimal? It specifies that performers can earn double their usual fee, but this doesn’t seem too out of control.


Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo
what you'll want to do, in my opinion, is max out knowledge local, profession X, and some social skills. so go rogue, possibly channeling rogue.

…what’s a channeling rogue? Is that 3.5 or Pathfinder?

[daremetoidareyo]

Looks like this is in DMG2. How is it crazy-optimal? It specifies that performers can earn double their usual fee, but this doesn’t seem too out of control.



…what’s a channeling rogue? Is that 3.5 or Pathfinder?

Being able to double the amount of money you can make with a profession check means that you double the amount of money you make on many profit checks. Plus you get a +1 to it.



BUSINESS BASICS
The rules presented here for running businesses function
primarily off a single skill check, based on the business’s
primary skill. The owner makes a special skill check using
this skill, called a profit check. The owner can opt to take
10 on a profi t check but he can’t take 20. One profi t check is
made once every business term, typically one month. The
profi tability of the business is set by its risk and modifi ed
by its location, the business owner’s secondary skills, and
several other factors. The degree by which the profit check
succeeds determines how much income the business
generates, or how much it loses, for that term.

Basically you make a profit check, subtract 25 from your result, multiply that by a gp amount according to how risky the business is and that is how much money you make. Being favored in a performing guild doesn't tie your profit to businesses associated with entertainment, but having entertainers love you is a good way to make a whole lot of money for yourself.

So if you start a high risk business based on a profession skill. Profession innkeeper, (or profession Card gambler if you want to bring races of destiny into this) is an example of a high risk business. If your profit check -25 is a positive number, you multiply that amount by 50 to see how much GP you made that month. But because you're favored in that thar guild, you multiply that by 2. All you need is to be able to get +16 to your profession innkeeper skill and you get +100gp per game month.

Assuming 32 point buy:
human or changeling
str8, dex8, con8, int14, wis 16, cha18
Rogue 1: skill focus (profession:merchant), favored in guild
Marshal 1: Motivate wisdom
Human paragon 2 Business savvy, skill focus in another profession skill
rogue or factotum 1
Merchant prince (power of faerun)5

you need profession merchant at 8 to get into merchant prince. Merchant prince adds +2 to your profit checks per level.

At level 10, your profit check would be
+13 skill
+3 wisdom ability score
+4 marshal motivate wisdom
+10 insight from merchant prince
+2 business savvy
+1 luck bonus from business savvy
+1 from favored in guild (power of faerun p.74)
+3 skill focus
----
+37, if you take ten, that's 47
-25
=2200 gp per month.

Even at a -8 penalty, you can work less than 8 hours a week on your primary business and be making 1400 gp per month.
----

I was on mobile. It's changeling rogue, not channeling rogue. Dumb autocorrect.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo
*snip*

Thanks for the detailed example. It does seem easy to get unbalanced pretty quickly.


Originally Posted by Zaq
…they’re crazy weak/useless if you don’t abuse them and ridiculously unreasonably profitable [if] you do abuse them.

Yup, I’m getting a strong sense of that now.


Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo
I was on mobile. It's changeling rogue, not channeling rogue. Dumb autocorrect.

I wondered about that after I posted, since a changeling rogue would naturally be suited for this.

But now I’m wondering what a channeling rogue would look like. :smalltongue:

[P.F.]

Wow, 100 gold per month, by this time next year I could buy myself a +1 shield and almost have enough left over for one potion of cure light wounds! That's like the difference between 4th and 5th level starting gold in just 3 years!

The problem, in my experience, is that merchanting doesn't scale the same way as magic items, WBL, etc.

The pathfinder rules are particularly terrible on how long it takes to recoup your investments.

[SpamCreateWater]

there is a terrible merchant class in one of the faerun books. power of faerun probably.

That would be the 5 level PrC, Merchant Prince. For merchants it's fantastic. Its main ability is Master of Commerce (+2 on all profit checks and 10% reduction in business costs per level).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by SpamCreateWater
That would be the 5 level PrC, Merchant Prince.

Oddly enough, this PrC gets spellcasting, of all things—including Cure Light Wounds as an arcane spell.

Now that’s interesting. The merchant prince gets a spellbook, so if another wizard acquired that spellbook and copied CLW, would the wizard then be able to cast it as an arcane spell?

[Fizban]

The DMG2 businesses don't hold up well under close scrutiny. The PHB2 affiliations hold up much better, and while founding an affiliation doesn't give you a flat profit, it does make you a member (and possibly de facto leader), and many of the example affiliations have gp income as benefits (as well as bonuses to various skills). There's more affiliations in Dungeonscape and Complete Champion.

There are even more organizations printed in 3.5 than those using the affiliation system, Complete Adventurere and Tome of Magic in particular having some with strong merchantile benefits (usually buying magic items cheap).

And no one seems to have mentioned the gold standard, Merchantile Background form Players Guide to Faerun. When you sell loot you get 75% instead of 50%, and 1/month you can buy at 75%, allowing you to convert without loss (and combine with other things for profit). You also get a bunch of extra starting gold.

[Zaq]

Oddly enough, this PrC gets spellcasting, of all things—including Cure Light Wounds as an arcane spell.

Now that’s interesting. The merchant prince gets a spellbook, so if another wizard acquired that spellbook and copied CLW, would the wizard then be able to cast it as an arcane spell?

Nah. Merely being an arcane spell in a spellbook doesn’t necessarily mean a Wizard can learn it. Hell, as I recall, Chameleons put all their arcane spells in spellbooks, but they aren’t considered to be a source of hacking non-Wizard spells onto Wizard characters.

Also, Bards get CLW as an arcane spell, so it’s not THAT weird to see CLW as non-divine. Yeah, Bards don’t get spellbooks, but still, arcane CLW isn’t really new.

[Caelestion]

Pathfinder Unchained has expanded rules for the Profession skill, including an entire section on how to go into business. It has its own flaws (such that it can be abused), but it fits in well with the Downtime system.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fizban
And no one seems to have mentioned the gold standard, Merchantile Background form Players Guide to Faerun. When you sell loot you get 75% instead of 50%, and 1/month you can buy at 75%, allowing you to convert without loss (and combine with other things for profit). You also get a bunch of extra starting gold.

This is the one I was half-remembering, thanks.

Are there any other feats or traits along these lines, or is this about it? I’m aware of the Rich Parents trait from Pathfinder; are there any other direct boosts to personal finance like this?


Originally Posted by Zaq
Nah. Merely being an arcane spell in a spellbook doesn’t necessarily mean a Wizard can learn it.

Why not? What prevents a wizard from copying a merchant prince’s spellbook?

According to the text, “You prepare and cast spells just as a wizard does,” and the merchant prince “can also add spells found in other spellbooks or scrolls to your own.” That does imply a certain interchangeability between merchant prince and wizard spells.

[Zaq]

A Wizard might, MIGHT, be able to copy a spell from another class’s spellbook, but whether or not you’ve copied the magical writing, Wizards can only CAST Wizard spells (from Wizard slots). An individual Wizard’s list of available spells might differ from the general list depending on build choices (e.g., expanded with Wyrm Wizard or restricted with school specialization), but if it’s not on your list, you can’t cast it, book or no book.

Wizards also can’t cast Wu Jen spells (that aren’t also Wizard spells), even though they’re both arcane spellbook users.

[Fouredged Sword]

The only class.that can crib off other arcane casting lists is chameleon. Though fondong clw as an arcane spell is nice for them.

[Florian]

What else would be useful to an up-and-coming merchant prince?

Learn and understand the PF Downtime and Investment rules (Both Ultimate Campaign) and look up their supporting feats (Quests and Campaigns). Get comfy with potentially being a noble (Noble feat (ISWG), Noble Scion (Paths of Prestige)) or a follower of the prophecies of calistrade (Paths of Prestige) and try hard to get an Investigator (Majordomo) as your aide.

[Pugwampy]

Is not running into a hole full of scary monsters and robbing them , more profitable than actually setting up your own business ?

[Fouredged Sword]

Depends on the pacing of your game. Some games go from 1-20 in something like 2 in game years. Others take decadeds or centuries IC.

[daremetoidareyo]

You can open up multiple businesses. 8 hours per month seems to be the minimum investment. for 90 gold a month, you can hire specialists, offsetting the penalty to only a -2 to your check. So you could have a 40 hour off time work week with that build I put up above and make something like 10000 gold just by taking 10 on your skill check rolls.

[Coidzor]

The Mercantile feat from Dragon 315(or Players Guide to Faerûn or the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting?) will let you sell for 75% list price and 1/month buy at 75% list price along with starting with an extra 300 gp.

The Extraordinary Artisan feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting gives a 25% discount when crafting magic items.

The Apprentice (Craftsman) feat from DMG II gives a 10% discount when crafting items, magical or mundane. IIRC.

The Magical Craftsman feat from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting gives a 25% discount when crafting magic items using a particular feat. Possibly stacks if you have it multiple times for multiple feats that apply. (Magical Artisan?)

Several guild memberships give a 10% reduction to crafting items of various types.

I believe it's Races of Faerun that has the Gold Dwarf Dweomersmith feat and the Shield Dwarf Warder feat. The former gives a 5% discount on weapons and the latter gives a 5% discount on shields and armor.

The Hammer of the Magesmith from the Arms and Equipment Guide gives a 5% discount when crafting weapons.

If you can get ahold of Fey Cherry wood from Dragon 357, then it gives a 10% discount on items you can make from it.

If you can get a Divine Rank of 1 and have a portfolio having to deal with crafting or trade, then you can get a 50% discount on all items you have crafting feats for.

The Rich Parents (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/rich-parents/) trait from Ultimate Campaign(?) puts your starting wealth at 900 gp.

The Duskwalker Agent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/trait-regional-duskwalker-agent/) trait from the Legacy of Fire Player's Guide(?) doubles your starting wealth, so... with Mercantile and Rich Parents, that goes from 1200 to 2400. Maybe from 1200 to 2100. Maybe it returns an out of cheese error. Also you sell for an additional 10% profit when you sell things and everything you buy is 10% cheaper so long as you're in the right city.

The Spark of Creation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/spark-of-creation-magic/) trait from Champions of Purity(?) gives a +1 trait bonus to Craft and lets you make magic items with a 5% discount.

Goods capital from the Downtime system counts for 20 gp of raw material to make a mundane item. Baseline it costs 10 gp to earn Goods Capital, so that can reduce your costs by half, so long as the item's raw material cost is divisible by 20.

Magic capital from the Downtime system counts for 100 gp of raw material to make a magic item. Baseline it costs 50 gp to earn Magic Capital, so that can reduce your costs by half, so long as the item's construction cost is divisible by 100, which is pretty common.

So being able to reduce how much it costs you to make (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1000.0) and then be able to sell it for ~82.5% market value is pretty good. Offhand it seems you could probably manage around ~12.02% market price as part of your costs, so a magic item with a market price of 2000 gp could be made using only 240 gp 4 sp and 6 cp and then sold for 1650 gp, leading to a profit of 1409.54 gp, or ~586% profit. With the ability to increase the DC by 5 and get 2000 gp of progress done on a magic item per day, that can add up over time. Of course, that's without the ability to earn Capital for cheaper than normal using a feat whose name I cannot recall offhand.

Wizards and Alchemists are the best situated to earn capital in Downtime (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime/), I believe, due to the long duration buffs they can get for Craft checks and the Int focus they have. Crafter's Fortune (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/crafter-s-fortune/) is a flat +5 Luck bonus (as is Beloved of the Forge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beloved-of-the-forge)). With Blood Money cheese, one can get Visualization of the Mind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/visualization-of-the-mind/) up all day every day for an untyped +5 to all Int checks. Tears to Wine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/tears-to-wine) is an Enhancement bonus to Int-based skills directly that scales with CL up to a +10, and once you have a high enough CL, you can get basically anyone to drink the kool-aid and be all but guaranteed to successfully Aid Another to boost your mundane craft checks by +2 if for some reason you're doing something too complicated or big for Fabricate. Greater Shadow Conjuration mimicking Genius Avaricious (http://archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Genius%20Avaricious) also gives up to +5, untyped, and Heroism gives a +2 Morale bonus and can be arranged to cover an entire day's worth of generating Capital. That said, the cap from what I see feasibly being done is about 8 points of capital earned by a 20th level Wizard per day.

The Alternate Profession Rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/alternate-profession-rules/) make for it being relatively easy for a character with some decent starting capital to set up a business that generates money for them, only requiring attention when it comes time to upgrade the business to make it earn more money. 100 gp and an average of 17 days and you can get a business that makes you a minimum of 100 gp a month forever without you having to work. Assuming you have a Wisdom of 10 to 11 and only 1 rank in Profession. Going up from there requires more time and money invested, but gives an order of magnitude more profit.

In the Downtime system, as far as Rooms and Teams go, I believe Gardens have the best return on investment, or whatever term you use to mean it has the best ratio of how much money you spend on it versus how much money it can make you over time. I haven't looked over the Teams as well to tell you what of them is the best value for money. One thing of note is that Mages and Priests are level 3 casters and thus can qualify for Craft Wondrous Item, so with retraining you could potentially turn them into magic item factories, maybe.