Surprising differences between 5E and 3rd.

[Stygofthedump]

Are there any gems that old 3rd ed players might assume they know and be wrong. Things like 'feather fall' affecting multiple targets, and the undead rules?

[Mikal]

I was surprised at the uselessness of grappling now when I first played.

Also surprise rules were a big... surprise.

HP rolls can now actually cause you to lose hp depending on con mod.

[ImproperJustice]

There are no surprise rounds anymore.

A feat now does the job of an entire feat tree in 3rd edition.

Cantrips can be used at will.

A +1 to hit or AC is significant.

Orcs and similar low grade enemies can still be a threat at mid-tier levels.

[Hyde]

some of my players from 3.X were briefly tripped up by movement. "There's no 5-foot step" and "everyone has spring attack now"
The biggest and most difficult to explain was that no one prepares spells to slots anymore.

[No brains]

A character's choice of weapon seems less important now. Not just in the removal of exotic weapons, but also in crit rules disappearing.

[JNAProductions]

I was surprised at the uselessness of grappling now when I first played.

Also surprise rules were a big... surprise.

HP rolls can now actually cause you to lose hp depending on con mod.

Considering grappling is a good tactic against anyone within one size category, and how bad it was in 3.5, I'm not sure we're talking on the same wavelength here.

[mephnick]

There are many fewer resistences and vulnerabilities in the game. Read monater statblocks carefully.

[Asmotherion]

-No Xp component for crafting/spells, those things being handled through RP is a great improvement for me. I hated needing to loose XP every time I wanted to cast Wish/Craft an item during downtime because "those were the rules". It was too much investment/taxing to do something that could potentially benefit the whole party instead of just you, yet the rules were balanced on the assumption you would only craft items for yourself/Buff yourself via Wish.

-Unlike most people, I love bounded accouracy; It makes battles more realistic. No matter how much of a veteran you are, 50 people throwing arrows at you are still a deadly threat, unless you're behind total cover, and can throw a fireball to them as soon as possible. Or you might have some kind of Artifact/other ability that stops non-magical damage from hurting you, but it's still not because you are "naturally so athletic that you dodge 50 arrows aimed at you", wich is highly improbable, based on logic.

-I also love how magical items work now. Both "X Charges; Recharges at Dawn", and "X times untill your next short/long rest". Obviously, there are the passive benefits from older edditions, that keep working as they did, such as "Ring of Telekinesis" (on of my old time favorites), but the new ones are improvements; Instead of getting a want that's going to eventually discharge, you get a more rare, yet more limited one that recharges itself. It keeps being usefull for the whole of the campain. I like the "Magic items are a rare thing" approach, and I usually don't introduce magic items until level 5-7, sometimes even 12 to my PCs. I feel that magic items could overshadow some character abilities in past editions, and it's time we get past that.

-The level system has a deeper "meaning" to it than it ever did. With dips, subclasses, multiclassing, specific levels marking your "Archetype Features" and for casters, new spell levels/for non-casters new significant ability gained, you can pinpoint in game "how much of what you are". A Noble Backround Wizard 1 Eldritch Knight 5 for example, could more easily introduce himself as "I am Sir Gish, Knight of this Kingdom, and I've studied a bit the Arcane Arts with my father who is a Noble Wizard". On the other hand, the same guy, with Wizard 3 and the School of Abjuration, could call himself an Abjurer proudly before mundanes and same-level arcane characters, but would know he is but at an adept level in comparison to the more experianced Wizards (able to use 5th level spells). Spells above 5th level are considered "supernatural" even by Magical sence, and anyone able to cast them is considered exceptionally gifted with the arcane, a "prodigy".

[Beelzebubba]

Martials aren't completely useless!

[Wartex1]

Considering grappling is a good tactic against anyone within one size category, and how bad it was in 3.5, I'm not sure we're talking on the same wavelength here.

Grappling is actually pretty great in 5E given how low enemy skills tend to be. Especially considering you can shove an enemy prone while grappling.

[Alatar]

There is no Delay option in 5e, though no one seems to have told Chris Perkins.

[lunaticfringe]

Feat Tax & Bloat don't exist.

Archers work great right out of the box and don't require any strength MADness.

The game benefits from use of Imagination more than an Archetype/Prestige Class or odd rule from Splatbook telling you specifically how to do/handle something. I encourage refluffing, Reskinning, & Counts As.

A caster without a spellbook/holy symbol still has options and can be the MVP of jail breaks.

Paladins have no Alignment requirements but a lot of folks still play them like they do.

[MeeposFire]

full attack actions thankfuly no longer exist.

This means you can move around and still make all your normal attacks. It does not sound like much but it helps so much to help make weapon users fun.

[Kane0]

- Concentration checks (which are saves) can be called for even if the caster does not take damage (including by only losing THP and not real HP), such as being thrown around in gale force winds

- Readying a spell requires concentration

- A CR X creature is a medium threat to a four to five strong party of level X adventurers, not a medium threat to a single level X adventurer

- Bonus actions need not occur after actions, even when the bonus action requires a certain action to be used

- You can use your reaction during your turn

[The_Jette]

The most surprising difference to me was that not all material components are used up when casting a spell. That always irritated me. "So, I have to find a town on the coast so I can purchase fifty 100gp pears, in case we come across a magic item that I need to identify?"

[Easy_Lee]

There is no Delay option in 5e, though no one seems to have told Chris Perkins.

This one surprised me, too. Regardless, I haven't seen anyone stop players from delaying their turns, even in AL. I think most would agree that Delay should exist.

[JackPhoenix]

Alignment, despite what some people believe and try to push upon others (hello, Malifice), doesn't work like 3e alignment. It is simply a part of character's personality and a general description of his or hers typical behavior and attitude. It is not some objective cosmic force, it doesn't force the character to behave certain way all the time, and it has few mechanical effects. Also, Detect Good and Evil and Protection from Good and Evil, despite the names, have nothing to do with alignment and everything to do with creature type.

[lunaticfringe]

The most surprising difference to me was that not all material components are used up when casting a spell. That always irritated me. "So, I have to find a town on the coast so I can purchase fifty 100gp pears, in case we come across a magic item that I need to identify?"

Oh this is a good one. I was pleasantly surprised by that. People freaking out over the pearl cost for Identify comes up now & again. I tell them to go read Chapter 10 again if they are going to play a caster.

[Cynthaer]

This one surprised me, too. Regardless, I haven't seen anyone stop players from delaying their turns, even in AL. I think most would agree that Delay should exist.

It's probably not as good as hammering out a proper solution, but I suspect they excluded an official Delay action because otherwise they'd have to address a bunch of weird edge cases. Effects that last until the end of someone's next turn, that sort of thing.

It's weird, but I'm actually kind of glad that they didn't try to spell it out in the PHB. This way we can all basically agree on "just let people delay their turn; it's fine if nobody's trying to munchkin it" and move on. If they'd written it out, I strongly suspect we'd have endless forum debates over loopholes in the RAW.

[Naanomi]

Alignment, despite what some people believe and try to push upon others (hello, Malifice), doesn't work like 3e alignment. It is simply a part of character's personality and a general description of his or hers typical behavior and attitude. It is not some objective cosmic force, it doesn't force the character to behave certain way all the time, and it has few mechanical effects. Also, Detect Good and Evil and Protection from Good and Evil, despite the names, have nothing to do with alignment and everything to do with creature type.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516989-When-Alignment-Matters-Mechanically

[UrielAwakened]

There is no Delay option in 5e, though no one seems to have told Chris Perkins.

Similarly you can't ready an attack to go off before an initiative roll.

Which is a blessing for a DM with a party of overly-cautious adventurers.

[GlenSmash!]

That grappling is useful and you can be good at it without any feats, but even better at it with certain feats, spells, and class features.

[JackPhoenix]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516989-When-Alignment-Matters-Mechanically

As I said, few mechanical effects. Even in the thread, some of the firm effects play little actual role. Knowing the alignment of the person trying to resurrect you, for example, doesn't really tell you anything about that person's allegience or motivation. Yes, there is a chance evil caster may be your enemy trying to revive you for nefarious ends, but it may just as well be greedy priest who likes to abuse his position for personal gain who got paid very well for his services. No "cleric must be at most one step from his god in alignment" in 5e.

[OldTrees1]

Saving throws don't auto succeed or auto fail on a nat 20 or nat 1 unless they are death saving throws.

[Naanomi]

As I said, few mechanical effects. Even in the thread, some of the firm effects play little actual role. Knowing the alignment of the person trying to resurrect you, for example, doesn't really tell you anything about that person's allegience or motivation. Yes, there is a chance evil caster may be your enemy trying to revive you for nefarious ends, but it may just as well be greedy priest who likes to abuse his position for personal gain who got paid very well for his services. No "cleric must be at most one step from his god in alignment" in 5e.
Right, but it is evidence that alignment still ‘exists’ in some objective sense; and not just as a roleplaying aid

[mephnick]

This one surprised me, too. Regardless, I haven't seen anyone stop players from delaying their turns, even in AL. I think most would agree that Delay should exist.

I'm not one of most then. I hate delay. I think it slows down the game and leads to repetitive strategy, making the game less strategic than more, as others would say.

[Willie the Duck]

Can we please not drag the alignment debates into this? I lose a little more faith in the human race every time they are dragged up.


The most surprising difference to me was that not all material components are used up when casting a spell. That always irritated me. "So, I have to find a town on the coast so I can purchase fifty 100gp pears, in case we come across a magic item that I need to identify?"

I would love to play in a game world with 100 gp pears. :smallbiggrin:


Anyways, things that might trip up 3e players-- I think the biggest thing has got to be that you are not expected to regularly buy magic items, that you don't need to do so, that characters in general are not decked to the gills with dozens of magic items, each which give +1-+6 to something, and that for the most part this all works. Tangentially, that gold is mostly spent on things like luxury goods, bribing guards, buying castles or merchant ships, or whatnot (and very much dependent upon DM, so both players and DM need to adjust their expectations).

[GooeyChewie]

Flanking doesn’t exist in 5e. Our DMs generally give advantage for what would be flanking, but RAW does not automatically grant it.

[Pex]

Everything can be critted. There's no confirmation roll.

Undead can be affected by "mind-affecting" effects. A specific ability has to say it can't affect undead or the undead monster description says it is immune to some condition. A skeleton, for example, takes full damage of the necrotic type and is affected by charm if a charm attack of some kind does not say it doesn't work against undead.

No attack of opportunity for casting a spell.

There's no 5 ft step. For as far as your speed allows you can move before and/or after whatever it is you want to do. Warriors get a second attack at 5th level. It is permissible to move 10 ft attack twice then move 20 ft more. It's also permissible to move 10 ft, attack one person, move 20 ft, attack a different person. You do provoke an attack of opportunity from the first person you attacked upon leaving his threatened area, but you can do those set of actions.

Anyone can trip, bull rush, disarm, etc. There's no attack of opportunity because of it. The Fighter Class Battlemaster Archetype can do damage in addition to those maneuvers, but anyone can do those maneuvers for the sake of doing those maneuvers.

[Alatar]

This one surprised me, too. Regardless, I haven't seen anyone stop players from delaying their turns, even in AL. I think most would agree that Delay should exist.

In my group, we cleave quite closely to RAW, though as I write this I am starting to think of the things that get ignored, like rations. But we do live and die by the combat rules as presented. The absence of Delay has been a bit of an adjustment for me, as I use to treat Initiative order as an expendable resource in 3rd edition.

Mike Mearls seems quite uncomfortable with the Initiative system. I think he finds it too meta, and that manipulating Initiative breaks immersion. I don't agree with this sentiment at all, but I am mostly at peace with the change. The gamist in me tells me to play the game by its rules.


I suspect they excluded an official Delay action because otherwise they'd have to address a bunch of weird edge cases.

Yes, I think they made a conscious effort to excise those thorny bits of the rules that encourage debate at the table. And I do think the effort resulted in a better game. Losing Delay just happens to be one of the excisions that stings a bit.

[Easy_Lee]

I can understand not wanting people to change their initiative due to "until next turn" effects. That's clear. What I can't understand is why they used the cumbersome Ready action to replace it.

Why can't a spell caster ready a spell while concentrating? That punishes support but favors blasters.

Why can a martial only make one attack after readying? That punishes fighters but favors rogues.

Why do I have to give up my action just to move at the same time as an ally? That punishes positioning and encourages players to come up with odd strategies, like attaching themselves to each other if they need to stay together while moving.

The real kicker: none of this is a problem in real life, but it becomes one because of the clunky and unintuitive Ready mechanic replacing the simple Delay mechanic. All they had to do to prevent "until your next turn" stuff was say that it ends on your turn even if you delay your turn.

I think the real reason they did this was to prevent burst-style play, where everyone hits the same target at once. But that just means they wanted to prevent players from coordinating the way players do.

Perhaps they thought battles where everyone did their own thing at different times were more fun, challenging, or interesting. Perhaps they thought it was more like the novels. I don't know. Regardless, I don't like it. Anyone who's ever played a revised beast conclave ranger and tried to ride their companion knows what a pain in a butt it is that you technically can't coordinate your action with an ally.

[GlenSmash!]

I can understand not wanting people to change their initiative due to "until next turn" effects. That's clear. What I can't understand is why they used the cumbersome Ready action to replace it.

Why can't a spell caster ready a spell while concentrating? That punishes support but favors blasters.

Why can a martial only make one attack after readying? That punishes fighters but favors rogues.

Why do I have to give up my action just to move at the same time as an ally? That punishes positioning and encourages players to come up with odd strategies, like attaching themselves to each other if they need to stay together while moving.

The real kicker: none of this is a problem in real life, but it becomes one because of the clunky and unintuitive Ready mechanic replacing the simple Delay mechanic. All they had to do to prevent "until your next turn" stuff was say that it ends on your turn even if you delay your turn.

I think the real reason they did this was to prevent burst-style play, where everyone hits the same target at once. But that just means they wanted to prevent players from coordinating the way players do.

Perhaps they thought battles where everyone did their own thing at different times were more fun, challenging, or interesting. Perhaps they thought it was more like the novels. I don't know. Regardless, I don't like it. Anyone who's ever played a revised beast conclave ranger and tried to ride their companion knows what a pain in a butt it is that you technically can't coordinate your action with an ally.

I do think that Ready is cumbersome.

I also like things that encourage making a decision quickly and moving the game forward.

Thankfully non of my players know about delay, or Ready, so when it's their turn they just take actions.

[UrielAwakened]

Ready is fine, it's one of the few actual tactical options in most mundanes' toolboxes.

Their execution, as goes with most things, is what leaves much to be desired.

I'm pretty sure none of us even know that you can't ready a spell while concentrating and now that I know this we still won't be enforcing it because it's one of many dumb rules revolving around spellcasting.

[Red Bear]

Grappling is actually pretty great in 5E given how low enemy skills tend to be. Especially considering you can shove an enemy prone while grappling.
really? how does this work? what kind of action do you have to make?


The most surprising difference to me was that not all material components are used up when casting a spell. That always irritated me. "So, I have to find a town on the coast so I can purchase fifty 100gp pears, in case we come across a magic item that I need to identify?"
Wait so you don't expend materials even if they have a price? how does it work? do you just spend gp?


Flanking doesn’t exist in 5e. Our DMs generally give advantage for what would be flanking, but RAW does not automatically grant it.
Yeah I'm struggling with flanking, I don't want to remove it but giving advantage is too strong.



Undead can be affected by "mind-affecting" effects. A specific ability has to say it can't affect undead or the undead monster description says it is immune to some condition. A skeleton, for example, takes full damage of the necrotic type and is affected by charm if a charm attack of some kind does not say it doesn't work against undead.

where does it say this?

[GooeyChewie]

Wait so you don't expend materials even if they have a price? how does it work? do you just spend gp?

You have to have the materials, but unless the spell says the materials are consumed you still have said materials after you cast the spell. They basically act as a focus.

[KorvinStarmast]

I also like things that encourage making a decision quickly and moving the game forward. Yeah.
I'm not one of most then. I hate delay. I think it slows down the game and leads to repetitive strategy, making the game less strategic than more, as others would say. Which is why I'll argue against bringing it back.

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah. Which is why I'll argue against bringing it back.

In what way does Delay slow the game? Do you have specifics?

[KorvinStarmast]

In what way does Delay slow the game? Do you have specifics? It's not built into the action mechanic for 5e. Ready suffices. This is a turn based game, which goes quicker if everyone knows when it's their turn and is ready to play when their turn comes up. (One of many reasons I stopped playin 3.xe was how long it took to play a single combat).

[Hrugner]

Threatened area changes were pretty surprising. Taking attacks when someone leaves your threat range but not when they move within it took some getting used to. Remembering which abilities are "on attack if the target is within 5 feet" rather than "on melee attack" is also a surprising line that's drawn. Combat pacing is another, with many combats ending shortly after they begin. The scarcity of combat options for monsters is weird, as is their not using the same build rules as PCs. Spell casting is just similar enough to be confusing when you switch from a 3rd to 5th game. The tight control on action economy is also surprising, particularly as it manifests in spell target limits and concentration.

There's a bunch of stuff really. You'd be better of thinking of 5e and 3rd as entirely different games rather than deriving one from the other.

[UrielAwakened]

Threatened area changes were pretty surprising. Taking attacks when someone leaves your threat range but not when they move within it took some getting used to. Remembering which abilities are "on attack if the target is within 5 feet" rather than "on melee attack" is also a surprising line that's drawn. Combat pacing is another, with many combats ending shortly after they begin. The scarcity of combat options for monsters is weird, as is their not using the same build rules as PCs. Spell casting is just similar enough to be confusing when you switch from a 3rd to 5th game. The tight control on action economy is also surprising, particularly as it manifests in spell target limits and concentration.

There's a bunch of stuff really. You'd be better of thinking of 5e and 3rd as entirely different games rather than deriving one from the other.

The fact that monster with a 10 foot reach cannot make an OA when a creature moves from adjacent to it to just within its reach is still weird to me.

[Easy_Lee]

It's not built into the action mechanic for 5e. Ready suffices. This is a turn based game, which goes quicker if everyone knows when it's their turn and is ready to play when their turn comes up. (One of many reasons I stopped playin 3.xe was how long it took to play a single combat).

Suffices in what way? I've already given examples where Ready favors certain classes and prevents people from doing things they ought be able to do. It's impossible to move as a unit unless you tie yourself to an ally, for example. Maybe Ready suffices for you, but it doesn't work for me.

And I don't see how "I'll take my turn after X" slows down or invalidates the game. As long as people are paying attention, it takes about three extra seconds.

[Demonslayer666]

Suffices in what way? I've already given examples where Ready favors certain classes and prevents people from doing things they ought be able to do. It's impossible to move as a unit unless you tie yourself to an ally, for example. Maybe Ready suffices for you, but it doesn't work for me.

And I don't see how "I'll take my turn after X" slows down or invalidates the game. As long as people are paying attention, it takes about three extra seconds.

Players have a hard enough time keeping track of the order and who they follow. When a player delays, they are delaying not to go after X, but to go after whenever they choose because they don't know what to do now. It's easy to forget they are sitting out in limbo waiting to go. We don't announce the end of the turn, just who is going next. The delayer will interrupt someone mid turn when they realize the turn ended, then the next player is thrown off, and then players start accusing me of skipping their turn.

While I really don't like it, a set turn order is easier.

I prefer players that are ready for their turn. Delay doesn't encourage that play style.

[GlenSmash!]

The fact that monster with a 10 foot reach cannot make an OA when a creature moves from adjacent to it to just within its reach is still weird to me.

That one is sometimes tricky for me to wrap my head around too. But I I'm fine with it. It applies to players with reach weapons too.

[GlenSmash!]

Suffices in what way? I've already given examples where Ready favors certain classes and prevents people from doing things they ought be able to do. It's impossible to move as a unit unless you tie yourself to an ally, for example. Maybe Ready suffices for you, but it doesn't work for me.

And I don't see how "I'll take my turn after X" slows down or invalidates the game. As long as people are paying attention, it takes about three extra seconds.

I think it will depend on the player, and the group. "I'll take my turn after X" is fine. "I'm not ready I'll go later" is less fine, especially if half your group tries it.

[Easy_Lee]

Players have a hard enough time keeping track of the order and who they follow. When a player delays, they are delaying not to go after X, but to go after whenever they choose because they don't know what to do now. It's easy to forget they are sitting out in limbo waiting to go. We don't announce the end of the turn, just who is going next. The delayer will interrupt someone mid turn when they realize the turn ended, then the next player is thrown off, and then players start accusing me of skipping their turn.

While I really don't like it, a set turn order is easier.

I prefer players that are ready for their turn. Delay doesn't encourage that play style.

I don't think taking options away from players is a good way to encourage them to play better.

[LordEntrails]

Here's a thing I put together years ago for my players. Enjoy.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=18u4GpE_m09xvRlFnCKWBn3a_WFqI7121

[Tanarii]

Right, but it is evidence that alignment still ‘exists’ in some objective sense; and not just as a roleplaying aidSure, it may be objective. But "objective" can mean "as determined by the player's choice for their character's Alignment and written down on the character sheet, that they will then use as a roleplaying aid."

For example, a PC may believe in-universe that they're a good person, because the end goal of their actions justifies the means. But the player has written down Lawful Evil, and plays the character accordingly by the 5e definition that it's typical but not required overall behavior, and integrates it with their other personal traits so as not to be a one-dimensional character. Objectively, the character is Lawful Evil for mechanical alignment purposes.

(I saw an Alignment comment, and couldn't resist posting. Send help! :smallbiggrin:)

[GlenSmash!]

really? how does this work? what kind of action do you have to make? A Shove attempt like a Grapple attempt requires the Attack action, or if you have Extra Attack one use of extra attack during an Attack action.


Wait so you don't expend materials even if they have a price? how does it work? do you just spend gp? Not all spell components are consumed. Some are. The spell will say so.



Yeah I'm struggling with flanking, I don't want to remove it but giving advantage is too strong. I find the fact that Rogues getting Sneak Attack, and Wolf Totem Barbarian's providing advantage, are flanking enough for me, of course YMMV.

[Stygofthedump]

Here's a thing I put together years ago for my players. Enjoy.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=18u4GpE_m09xvRlFnCKWBn3a_WFqI7121

This is what I was hoping for, Thanks

[LordEntrails]

This is what I was hoping for, Thanks
You are welcome.

[Kane0]

Ohh, if that's what you were looking for then I have one saved lol


- Proficiency bonus is used for skill/ability checks, attacks and saving throws instead of BAB, save progressions and skill points. It's all based off Stat + Proficiency, and the numbers are lower and scale slower. HP and abilities/options are the primary differentiation between low and high levels.
- You have a saving throw type for each attribute.
- You can't have a stat higher than 20 by normal means, nor a stat higher than 30 by any means.
- Movement is not an action, and actions can happen between movement. Bonus actions are like swifts, reactions are like immediates. No action can be traded for another type. You can also make one interaction (grab a weapon, open a door, etc) per turn for free.
- You cannot delay, only ready an action.
- Only one thing provokes an AoO: Moving out of a creatures reach.
- Learn the advantage / disadvantage mechanic, it replaces 90% of fiddly +1s and +2s.
- Concentration is a thing you need to know well. Most buffs, debuffs and control need concentration, and you can concentrate on one thing at a time. You have a chance to lose concentration each time you take damage.
- All casting is 'spontaneous', though the list of spells available for you to choose from may change based on how your class handles it.
- There are two kinds of rest: short and long. There is expected to be two short rests for every long on average, which is important to maintain balance short rest classes (monk, warlock) against long rest classes (paladin, sorcerer).
- Encounter design is also different. A CR 6 enemy is a medium challenge for a level 6 party of 4, not a medium challenge for a single level 6 character. You are expected to deal with half a dozen or so medium encounters on an adventuring day, not one or two hard ones.
- Everybody can heal via hit die, which are spent during short rests.
- Dying works differently. You only die outright when you take damage equal to your max HP in one hit after reaching 0. When reduced to 0 you make saving throws, three successes stabilizes you and 3 failures you die. Taking damage while making death saves counts as one failure.
- Damage resistance, reduction and vulnerability is simplified. It's half damage, doesn't exist (as such) and double damage respectively.
- Don't use any optional rules to start with. This includes multiclassing and feats.
- The core math of the game does not expect you to get magic items by default. You can play through levels 1 to 20 without seeing a magic item at all, anything you get/give is a bonus.
- Levels 1-3 are supposed to go by very quickly, and 4-5 fairly quickly. The majority of PC time is angled to be spent in the level 6-11 range.
- Due to reduced scaling of basic numbers (skills, attacks, damage, AC) it is expected that low CR creatures remain a threat to higher level parties in significant numbers. This is intended.

Golden Rule: Thou shalt not assume to know that which shares a name
Sneak attack works differently. Protection from Evil works differently. Critical hits work differently. Do not skim over things that look familiar because they are almost all different in subtle ways that become very apparent in play.

[Malifice]

- A CR X creature is a medium threat to a four to five strong party of level X adventurers, not a medium threat to a single level X adventurer

This isnt true.

1 CR [X] monster vs 5 x [X] level PCs is an Easy encounter.

The PCs are expected to destroy it without expending any (or negligble) resources. This includes their own HP and HD. They should steamroll it.

For a Medium threat, you generally need a monster of CR [X+2]. A Hard threat is generally CR [X+4]. Deadly often kicks in at CR [X+6].

This holds true across most mid and high level play (low level play is swingy, and the numbers are lower). Check the calculator here (http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/)to check for yourself.

[Kane0]

You are correct, thanks for pointing that out. I'll update for the next time this comes up.

[Malifice]

You are correct, thanks for pointing that out. I'll update for the next time this comes up.

The encounter building guideleines in XGTE also pretty much say the same thing.

They state that with regards to 'solo' monsters, they should have a CR of around 2-3 higher than the parties level.

They also make it clear those monsters should be 'legendary' (legendary actions etc).

Its a common mistake. I see DMs use 'CR' as [this monster is a threat to PCs with a level = to it's CR]. They plonk a solo (non legendary) CR 5 critter next to 5 x 5th level PCs, and then get frustrated when the PCs wipe the floor with it, without breaking a sweat.

At a bare minimum a party of 5 x 5th level PCs should be squaring off against a Young Black Dragon, or a Giant Ape or similar CR 7 monster for a solo encounter. And those critters arent even legendary (legendary actions really help even up the action economy).

By contrast, a CR 5 critter is something like a Troll, and 5 x 5th level PCs would wipe the floor with a solo Troll.

[ad_hoc]

At a bare minimum a party of 5 x 5th level PCs should be squaring off against a Young Black Dragon, or a Giant Ape or similar CR 7 monster for a solo encounter. And those critters arent even legendary (legendary actions really help even up the action economy).

By contrast, a CR 5 critter is something like a Troll, and 5 x 5th level PCs would wipe the floor with a solo Troll.

I agree.

One thing I don't think people realize is how much power additional PCs add to a party.

6 PCs are not just 50% stronger than 4.

They are able to specialize, will likely have answers to more situations/problems, can protect each other, and focus fire. The parties are also more resilient to losing PCs in the middle of a battle.

One thing I see often is the idea that ranged characters don't need AC because they 'stay in the back'. This goes hand in hand with the idea that ranged is too good. I'm going to go ahead and guess that most of the time this is in a 6 person party.

The sweet spot for our group is 4 players. 5 is the absolute limit, if more want to join we tell them maybe next time. In the games I'm in ranged characters are attacked a lot.

This is also probably responsible for the idea that the game is too easy. We run published adventures at our table and find them to be quite difficult. I imagine if we had 6 players they would be very easy.

[Oerlaf]

I can understand not wanting people to change their initiative due to "until next turn" effects. That's clear. What I can't understand is why they used the cumbersome Ready action to replace it.

Why can't a spell caster ready a spell while concentrating? That punishes support but favors blasters.

Why can a martial only make one attack after readying? That punishes fighters but favors rogues.

Why do I have to give up my action just to move at the same time as an ally? That punishes positioning and encourages players to come up with odd strategies, like attaching themselves to each other if they need to stay together while moving.

The real kicker: none of this is a problem in real life, but it becomes one because of the clunky and unintuitive Ready mechanic replacing the simple Delay mechanic. All they had to do to prevent "until your next turn" stuff was say that it ends on your turn even if you delay your turn.

I think the real reason they did this was to prevent burst-style play, where everyone hits the same target at once. But that just means they wanted to prevent players from coordinating the way players do.

Perhaps they thought battles where everyone did their own thing at different times were more fun, challenging, or interesting. Perhaps they thought it was more like the novels. I don't know. Regardless, I don't like it. Anyone who's ever played a revised beast conclave ranger and tried to ride their companion knows what a pain in a butt it is that you technically can't coordinate your action with an ally.

There is also one issue with Ready - it triggers after the trigger is finished. So, if I Ready an action "When that person casts a spell, I cast silence/darkness centered on him", I won't interrupt this. I must word the ready trickily: "When that person opens a mouth, I cast silence/darkness centered on him" - yes, he may open mouth not casting the spell, but it's still better.

[mephnick]

One thing I see often is the idea that ranged characters don't need AC because they 'stay in the back'. This goes hand in hand with the idea that ranged is too good. I'm going to go ahead and guess that most of the time this is in a 6 person party..

Or a DM that won't risk AoO's with his monsters to rush the back lines or plays very static MMO combats. I know there's some players out there who've never been hit with a melee attack as a ranged character, reinforcing this dumb idea that ranged characters are untouchable.

I once had a pack of wolves just rush past the two heavy armour tanks and drag away an archer Rogue and the party flipped out like it was something they had never thought possible.

[ad_hoc]

Or a DM that won't risk AoO's with his monsters to rush the back lines or plays very static MMO combats. I know there's some players out there who've never been hit with a melee attack as a ranged character, reinforcing this dumb idea that ranged characters are untouchable.

I once had a pack of wolves just rush past the two heavy armour tanks and drag away an archer Rogue and the party flipped out like it was something they had never thought possible.

Yeah that happens too. I've seen posts where people complain about the game being too easy, and then when asked how the OP plays out combats it becomes apparent that they are playing the enemy creatures in silly ways.

Anyway, yeah it's only one OA per character, I know if I'm a savvy animal or NPC I'm going to go for the soft characters who are really hurting me. Or if I'm a leader in an orc tribe and adventurers come into my cave network, I'm going to attack them from multiple tunnels at once. Etc.

Just my last session we had a new player join our campaign. She brought her character from her old campaign because it fizzled early. They were at level 5 so we bumped her down to 3, but that gives an idea of how many sessions they had probably played. Well she had a ranged oriented Ranger and I saw she was only using Leather so I suggested something tougher. She said the Leather was for roleplaying so I said sure okay (in my mind a survivalist is going to wear whatever will protect them but I'm not going to challenge someone else' character concept). Well a couple encounters in they ran into 4 orcs who used their bonus dash to run straight up to her and down her in the first round (she was the closest soft character). I don't think her character was ever attacked before. I do think when they get back to town she's going to be buying better armour though.

[Zalabim]

This isnt true.

1 CR [X] monster vs 5 x [X] level PCs is an Easy encounter.

The PCs are expected to destroy it without expending any (or negligble) resources. This includes their own HP and HD. They should steamroll it.

For a Medium threat, you generally need a monster of CR [X+2]. A Hard threat is generally CR [X+4]. Deadly often kicks in at CR [X+6].

This holds true across most mid and high level play (low level play is swingy, and the numbers are lower). Check the calculator here (http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/)to check for yourself.

Building on this, monsters with CR > PC level may have abilities that PCs can't deal with or deal enough damage to wipe out one or more PCs in a single turn leading to swingy fights, so double-check the monster's statistics and abilities before using it against PCs lower than its CR. (The damage part at least is why you should favor legendary actions for solos: it gives more time for the party to respond to the monster's attacks than if the monster did all those actions at once.)

[Unoriginal]

CR is supposed to be around "Medium encounter for 4 PCs" not 5. One PC can make a huge difference.

[Arkhios]

No matter how much of a veteran you are, 50 people throwing arrows at you are still a deadly threat

Every important thing has been said, pretty much, so I'm going to be the little sap I sometimes am, and say this:

"50 people throwing arrows at you are still a deadly threat"

Really? I'm not sure if that ever was deadly :smalltongue:

...sorry, I couldn't resist the urge. Shame on me!

[Joe the Rat]

Delay vs. Ready:

Ready is really trying to capture the "arrows ready, ball of mana in hand, hiding right around the corner and ready to stab what comes past kind of event - the set up to a precisely timed event. An opportunistic sneak up strategy. Makes sense that this favors Rogues.
One benefit to Ready is it allows you to split up your turn. You still do your move, and any viable Bonus actions, then hold your Action until a viable trigger comes up.

What it does not do is let you and a buddy act at in full at the same time. This is a weird side effect of turn order. Visualizing, the events of a round should all be happening relatively simultaneously - we talk about "can you do that in six seconds" because we are expecting your actions to take that six second window. Turns and initiative are about sorting the chaos into something manageable, and giving the edge in action.

This is where Delay comes in - laying back on your initiative to line up with someone else. Except you still don't do something "simultaneously" in mechanics - you are still right before or after the other event. You're just trying to cut out the gaps - make sure someone else isn't going in between you and whatever event. So how much initiative shuffle do you want?

Tweaks and Notes:
Numbers don't matter after order is set. Anything you do is in relation to another event. This means you add a "20" card to the stack for traps/hazards/lair actions. The world moves on 20, losing all ties.

If you use delay, "Until (end of) your next turn" effects end at your old count. That's your edge concern, that's your edge penalty for waiting a pip. Multiround effects aren't going to benefit nearly as much.

Don't make it an open-ended "See when I want to jump in" - Make it a specific "move here."
Make it an "After X" shift. If you are waiting for your slowbro to come up catch up ("How did you roll a -2?!"), you go right after he does.

For Ready: What happens if you don't restrict the Action? If a martial type can Extra Attack, or a spellcaster can just cast now? Besides losing the "He's going to cast something as soon as something happens, someone shoot the wizard!" option (which seems to be a missing element), how will that break things?

On casting - what if it took concentration, but not concentration concentration? You can still lose a spell if you're hit, but you can also still hold Fly or Banish or Unseen Servant while you set up. That really better captures the simultaneous six second aspect - you're adjusting your casting time to hit juuuuust the right second to fire.

[Coffee_Dragon]

There is also one issue with Ready - it triggers after the trigger is finished. So, if I Ready an action "When that person casts a spell, I cast silence/darkness centered on him", I won't interrupt this. I must word the ready trickily: "When that person opens a mouth, I cast silence/darkness centered on him" - yes, he may open mouth not casting the spell, but it's still better.

Doesn't work that way. You don't become faster because you choose a more specific trigger. Any trigger which is part of a game action fires after that game action (unless it normally interrupts).

[Unoriginal]

Doesn't work that way. You don't become faster because you choose a more specific trigger. Any trigger which is part of a game action fires after that game action (unless it normally interrupts).

Pretty sure that a Reaction can interrupt an Action.

[Tanarii]

Pretty sure that a Reaction can interrupt an Action.
Fairly sure it's only if the reaction says it can.

Regardless, it doesn't matter in this case. The Ready action specifically occurs right after the trigger finishes.

[Coffee_Dragon]

The default is that reactions happen after the trigger, and this is clearly Oerlaf's basic premise. The question is whether you can get around that by selecting as trigger not a game event but some flavour detail that narratively is part of a game action, so that you can claim your "instantly after" reaction happens in the middle of the corresponding game action. In my view this is a blatant subversion of the rule (rules that simply ask you to jump through semantic hoops for mechanical benefits are bad rules) and DMs should carry a bunch of scallions to whap anyone who attempts it.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, I consider it a subversion of the rule too, and certainly don't allow shenanigans. AFAIAC ready action:
- after individual attacks with an Attack Action with extra attack
- within movement, but after the triggering portion of movement
- after a spell resolves
- generally after other types of actions resolve

But the language of the rule is certainly open to some interpretation on that front.

[Cynthaer]

I do think that Ready is cumbersome.

I also like things that encourage making a decision quickly and moving the game forward.

Thankfully non of my players know about delay, or Ready, so when it's their turn they just take actions.

I think these last two points are definitely related, and I think the fact that the Ready action is kind of mediocre might actually be a boon here.

In any game, the amount of space and detail dedicated to fleshing out some part of the game communicates to the player how important it is.

In D&D, the structure of the PHB says that this is a game of races, classes, skills, and spells. The structure of the character sheet (i.e., the mechanical effects) say that it's mostly a combat game, with a big dose of non-combat adventuring and social interactions.

Within the combat rules, the structure of the book says that moving, attacking, and spellcasting are the most relevant actions, plus whatever other options your class might provide. Then there are also some other non-attack actions you might want, like shoving or grappling.

Ready is tucked away toward the end of this section, it uses both your Action and Reaction for the turn, and it has a bunch of restrictions over just using your normal Action to do something.

In other words, it's hidden away, it's short, and it's kind of crappy. All of this communicates the same thing: "This is an alternative combat action you might occasionally want to use."

(For comparison, the order of the actions list is Attack, Cast a Spell, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, Ready, Search, and Use an Object. This is basically sorted precisely by how frequently the designers expect you to use these actions in combat.)

If the Ready action were more prominent, had more text devoted to it, or were simply more powerful, that would effectively tell players that it is supposed to be a more important part of combat and they should be using it more. And that would drastically increase decision-making complexity during combat, since the system would implicitly encourage optimizing the timing of every action between every combination of players by manipulating turn orders.

To be clear, there are plenty of players for whom this would not be a problem. But the PHB needs to guide new players into playing in a way that leads to fun, and the current design does a good job of nudging players towards just taking their damn turns (fun!) and away from doing endless analysis mid-combat (not fun).

[JackPhoenix]

Every important thing has been said, pretty much, so I'm going to be the little sap I sometimes am, and say this:

"50 people throwing arrows at you are still a deadly threat"

Really? I'm not sure if that ever was deadly :smalltongue:

...sorry, I couldn't resist the urge. Shame on me!

Even with no proficiency to hit, those 1d4 improvised weapon attack will add up.


(For comparison, the order of the actions list is Attack, Cast a Spell, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, Ready, Search, and Use an Object. This is basically sorted precisely by how frequently the designers expect you to use these actions in combat.)

Or rather precisely in alphabetical order.

[Cynthaer]

Or rather precisely in alphabetical order.

I actually never noticed that!

I don't think it's coincidence, though. In 4e, "Help" used to be "Aid Another", and they used "Run" instead of "Dash" for fast movement.

Frankly, I'd be astonished if the designers didn't at least consider the ordering of this section when they were picking the wording. If there were a better word for "Ready" that started with "A", it would have been a terrible mistake to place it above "Attack" in the Actions section, for the reasons I stated previously. That would give players the impression that Readying actions is expected to be a major part of combat, and the play experience would suffer.

[Arkhios]

Even with no proficiency to hit, those 1d4 improvised weapon attack will add up.

Not all Improvised Weapons deal 1d4 damage, though. DMs are well within their rights to rule otherwise as is appropriate.

[JackPhoenix]

I actually never noticed that!

I don't think it's coincidence, though. In 4e, "Help" used to be "Aid Another", and they used "Run" instead of "Dash" for fast movement.

Frankly, I'd be astonished if the designers didn't at least consider the ordering of this section when they were picking the wording. If there were a better word for "Ready" that started with "A", it would have been a terrible mistake to place it above "Attack" in the Actions section, for the reasons I stated previously. That would give players the impression that Readying actions is expected to be a major part of combat, and the play experience would suffer.

I think it depends on group. In mine, Ready is the third most often used action, after Attack and Cast a Spell, slightly before Disengage, Dash and Use an Object (in about this order of use) and way ahead of Dodge, Help, Hide and Search.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think it depends on group. In mine, Ready is the third most often used action, after Attack and Cast a Spell, slightly before Disengage, Dash and Use an Object (in about this order of use) and way ahead of Dodge, Help, Hide and Search.

I get a lot of Dash, not much Disengage (since several of the players have Mobile), some Hide (there's a rogue) about zero Dodge, Help, and Search. I'd put it as (for my groups)

Attack ~ Cast > Dash ~> Ready > Disengage >> Dodge ~ Help ~ Search ~ 0.

[Cynthaer]

I think it depends on group. In mine, Ready is the third most often used action, after Attack and Cast a Spell, slightly before Disengage, Dash and Use an Object (in about this order of use) and way ahead of Dodge, Help, Hide and Search.


I get a lot of Dash, not much Disengage (since several of the players have Mobile), some Hide (there's a rogue) about zero Dodge, Help, and Search. I'd put it as (for my groups)

Attack ~ Cast > Dash ~> Ready > Disengage >> Dodge ~ Help ~ Search ~ 0.

Obviously everybody's practical experience will be different, but my point is about how the PHB's design affects the experience of new or casual players. They're the ones whose sense of the game is going to be most influenced by things like the layout.

And when these players flip over to the combat actions, they see "Attack, Cast a Spell, Dash, Disengage..." and then their eyes glaze over and they skim the rest. Whatever's listed in the first and second slots is going to be seen by 100% of players skimming the section, third might be 95%, fourth 85%, fifth 50%, and then it plummets from there.

Those numbers are made up, of course, but the point is that you better put the really important stuff in the prime spot and the least important stuff at the back. Otherwise you won't be communicating effectively, even if the content of the text is the same.

And in this specific case, I think the "Ready" action belongs at the back, where it won't distract newbies.

[Tanarii]

Huh. Dodge is probably one of the most commonly used actions IMC after Attack or Cast a Spell. With the exception of Rogues/Monks of course. But front line warriors often use it to hold a line. Provided they can make a line.

Ready is almost never used. It's on par with Search.

[ad_hoc]

I get a lot of Dash, not much Disengage (since several of the players have Mobile), some Hide (there's a rogue) about zero Dodge, Help, and Search. I'd put it as (for my groups)

Attack ~ Cast > Dash ~> Ready > Disengage >> Dodge ~ Help ~ Search ~ 0.

The survival rate of my group went way up after I reminded them about Dodge a few times. It is highly underrated.

The nice thing about it too is that it is a natural action. When a player says they are worried about being killed I tell them, well why don't you focus on not getting hit then? Their response is usually 'oh I didn't know that was an option'. It is a nice lead in to other actions, in the book or improvised. Many players forget that attack and cast a spell aren't the only things they can do.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Huh. Dodge is probably one of the most commonly used actions IMC after Attack or Cast a Spell. With the exception of Rogues/Monks of course. But front line warriors often use it to hold a line. Provided they can make a line.

Ready is almost never used. It's on par with Search.

Part of it is my group make up--i have a land druid, a rogue, a warlock, and a monk. They have an NPC fighter tagging along, but she's intentionally less effective. So I get lots of hit and run, little stand and fight.

[Tanarii]

Part of it is my group make up--i have a land druid, a rogue, a warlock, and a monk. They have an NPC fighter tagging along, but she's intentionally less effective. So I get lots of hit and run, little stand and fight.lol NPC Fighters (aka Henchmen) use Dodge even more than attacking IMC, so that may be the very reason I see it so much, now that I think about it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

lol NPC Fighters (aka Henchmen) use Dodge even more than attacking IMC, so that may be the very reason I see it so much, now that I think about it.

This is a special NPC. It was originally a fill-in when several party members weren't there--the living arcane library they were in gave them an eyeball drone. It was broken when they finished that part of the quest--they dragged it along, repaired it and finally gave it a real body recently. To say that they're attached to her is an understatement. One big bad (a former leader of the library) hacked it and dominated it--I've never seen those players so pissed at a villain. Like seriously murderous. Until recently, the only communication it could do was blatting (like R2-D2) and projecting holograms of what it saw. Now that it got a warforged body, it (now she) can talk. She stays in the background and quips occasionally in social aspects, and tries to act like a front line/SA buddy for the rogue in combat, although they're not very tactically minded players. I intentionally play her sub-optimally to avoid the DMPC fate.

[Coidzor]

Things like 'feather fall' affecting multiple targets, and the undead rules?

What are you talking about?

D&D 3e's Feather Fall affected 1 creatuer per CL. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/featherFall.htm)

D&D 5e's Feather Fall affects up to 5 falling creatures. (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Feather%20Fall#content)


Considering grappling is a good tactic against anyone within one size category, and how bad it was in 3.5, I'm not sure we're talking on the same wavelength here.

The Grappled condition by itself is far more powerful in 3.5 than in 5e. In 5e all it does is limit your movement.

In 5e, in order to gain benefits from grappling someone you also have to Shove them prone. Or have the right feat. If you shove them prone, then ranged allies are actually disadvantaged by this. Whereas in 3.5, grappling someone automatically gave everyone an advantage to hit them (and you), although ranged people still took a penalty from firing into melee unless they spent feats on Precise Shot, which was obligatory for being a ranged character anyway.

Also in 3.5 you could invest in Grapple well enough to make up for the fact that you were naturally at a disadvantage when trying to grapple really big things. In 5e you can't grapple big things without some form of size increase, many of which replace your statblock with that of a generic monster.


Why can't a spell caster ready a spell while concentrating? That punishes support but favors blasters.

To be fair, they do prefer Wizards as blasters, so at least the bias makes sense.


Yeah. Which is why I'll argue against bringing it back.

If you actually ever encounter problems from it, the issue is with those particular players who are prone to vacillating, not the fact that it's an option at all.


It's not built into the action mechanic for 5e. Ready suffices. This is a turn based game, which goes quicker if everyone knows when it's their turn and is ready to play when their turn comes up. (One of many reasons I stopped playin 3.xe was how long it took to play a single combat).

So Delay and things like it have never actually caused you any issues in games that had it available as an option, then?