Help w/ 'Raven Knight' (hexadin, maybe w/ sor)

[Sception]

I'm playing a Cha-based melee gish in a homebrew campaign where we're starting as members of the city watch in a corrupt city ("there is no war in Ba Sing Se" style). Not sure yet whether we'll be trying to fix things from the inside or eventually join a resistance, but as of right now we're street coppers. The player group on the whole seems a bit silly, which the DM has embraced, so the overall tone is less 'the horrors of being a cog in the nightmare state regime' and more 'Nightwatch in Ankh-Morpork'. DM seems relatively generous with magic items, particularly of the more esoteric variety. We've picked up a couple of interesting minor stuff through Civil Forfeiture in the first session.

All first party content is allowed, including UA, and some homebrew. Choice of point buy or die rolls. Almost everybody chose to roll, I don't think anyone was badly screwed by that choice yet.

Party consists of:

1/2ling rogue 1: going for inquisitive. strong insight and investigation, likes to dual wield rapier & dagger, but a bit fragile for all that. Player seems comfortable with 5e mechanics generally, if a bit new to rogue & dual wielding in particular.

1/2ling rogue 2: goofball. The player doesn't seem terribly interested or familiar with the nitty gritty of the game mechanics, and prefers to come up with wacky things to try based on the scene rather than their character sheet, leaving the DM to figure out how to implement it. Based on the first session, the DM seems largely supportive of this, very 'yes and' improv mentality, which I approve of. As a result, the character seems plenty effective, just not necessarily in exactly the same ways one might otherwise expect of a rogue, so it's nice that we have two. seems to prefer shortbow for making attack rolls, when they can't think of something more out-of-the-box to try.

dragonborn barbarian, planning on zealot. Standard big ax barbarian stuff, but their AC is pretty questionable. Player isn't uninterested in mechanics, but is newish to 5e.

1/2 elf bard. is leaning toward valor, but their very high casting stat (18 after rolls & racial bonus) and only ok dex and con (14 and 12, iirc), might make them better off outside of melee. I might try to push them towards lore bard, or maybe a single level hexblade dip if they really want to gish it up. Like the barbarian, this player, while not uninterested in the mechanics, is entirely new to the system, which is a bit more trouble for a bard than a barbarian, given that they've got a bunch of spells and abilities to sort of learn on the fly.

Mystery player. A friend of mine will, maybe, be joining after a few sessions. If anything, he's a bit more of an optimizer than I am, and doesn't have significant class preferences, so will play what he thinks the party needs. I'm hoping for a wizard or cleric with this crew, but who knows.


My Character Concept: Raven Knight - dedicated spell-warrior of the raven queen, exiled from the temple I was raised/trained in and banished from the shadowfell to the natural world due to a political/personal dispute.

My rolls: 16, 14, 13, 13, 11, 11. Can't complain at all.

Race: Half Shadar-Kai, homebrew half elf variant from the DM trading the 1/2 elf bonus skills for the Shadar-Kai's "Blessings of the Raven Queen" per-rest teleport.

Stats: s15, d11, c14, i11, w13, h18

Background: Acolyte (raised in a temple as a holy warrior). Grants religion (not great, but needed for character concept), insight (solid skill for a city guard), plus a couple extra languaged (helpful in a metropolitan trading city).

Current class levels:
1: Pal 1 (armor & weapon proficiencies, athletics & intimidation training)
2: War 1 (hexblade, eldritch blast, booming blade, shield)

Pal 1 / Hex 1 gets the 'magical dark knight' concept across very well. The question is where to take it from here? A couple options I'm looking at:


Conquest Paladin 18 / Hexblade 2
Pal 1, War 1, Pal +7, War +1, Pal +10

the party's rather frail, plenty of melee, but with low ACs and not great hit points. More tanking would be nice, and more paladin levels will make the character a better tank, especially after grabbing the conquest aura at level 8. I don't expect the campaign to get to level 20, but if it does, the expanded aura range makes a nice capstone, while the second warlock level at lv10 grants a second short-rest slot for shield/smite and a couple invocations.

This character gains 4 ASIs:
lv 5) warcaster
lv 9) +2 cha
lv 14) ???
lv 18) ???

Not sure what to do with the last two. Sentinel? Shield Master? Inspiring Leader? +2 con? Maybe swap the +2 Cha for Elven Accuracy + Menacing? Arcane Initiate, if only to pick up a super-on-theme raven familiar?

Feat recommendations would be greatly appreciated here.

Conquest Paladin 8, Hexblade 12
Pal 1, War 1, Pal+7, War+11

This character either picks up the control aura from Conquest Paladin or the damage aura from Oathbreaker, but then stops leveling paladin after the lv8 ASI in favor of spending the rest of their career as a hexblade. Again, I don't expect the campaign to go to lv20, but in this case if it does the capstone is a fifth ASI and lifedrinker for another +5 to melee damage, assuming I go for blade pact. But then again, if I stick to sword & board, maybe I won't go blade pact? Either book or tome could offer a fluffy raven (or at least raven-shaped) familiar, along with some other useful stuff.

In addition to (maybe) grabbing that raven familiar, this build also picks up some other incredibly on-theme stuff from later warlock levels, including the hexblade's specter summoning and the invocation for at-will speak with dead.

this would grant 5 ASIs, and I'm really not sure what to do with them. Obviously want warcaster and cha 20 as soon as possible if sticking sword and board, but this build might be better off ditching their shield for a great sword or glaive at level 11. Maybe elven accuracy + menacing instead of just +2 Cha? Or maybe Elven accuracy, plus resilient con, plus +1con/+1cha? Advice, again, greatly appreciated


Paladin 2, Hexblade 1, Sorcerer (shadow or divine) 17
Pal 1, War 1, Pal + 1, Sor 17

In addition to tanking ability, the party is lacking in spellcasting, both arcane and divine. While I don't expect to reach level 20, if we do this character would get a 9th level spell as their capstone, which is hard to argue with. otherwise, two levels of paladin for smiting, a level of hexblade for curse and melee cha, and 17 levels of sorcerer. either shadow, for general on-theme spoopiness and the ability to play darkness/devil's sight without actually having devil's sight, or else divine, also on theme for a chosen warrior of the raven queen, granting access to some healing and restoration spells the party might otherwise suffer from lacking access to.

This build gets 4 ASIs, but suffers pretty badly from the first one, almost certainly warcaster, a pretty critical feat for this build, not showing up until level 7, pushing cha 20 off to level 11 at the earliest, and that's if I don't grab elven accuracy, which would delay the last point of cha to level 15.


Paladin 2 / Hexblade 18
Pal 1 / Hex 6 / Pal +1 / hex +12

almost pure hexblade, just a dip of paladin for heavy armor, smite, a combat style, and a couple daily slots to cast shield with. Gets a 9th level spell, gets several 5th level short rest slots for shadow of moil or the like, higher level invocations. Misses out on the nice paladin auras at pal 6 and 7.

Does suffer a bit from delayed ASIs, with the first one not coming till level 6, but can switch over to a great weapon a level before that regardless. Gets to play darkness/devils sight games starting at level 5, gets all the fun hexblade stuff, including the improved curse at hex 14.


Those are the builds I'm currently looking at. Any suggestions at all, in terms of which build you think would work best for the party, any changes you would make to it, suggestions for ASIs, or even things to suggest to the other players to improve their characters would all be greatly appreciated. Again, character is already already level 2, so Pal1/Hex1 and the listed stats & backgrounds are already locked in, for better or worse.

[JoyfulJester]

I think conquest paladin would be great. You have lots of melee but not a lot of AC in your party so giving mobs disadvantage on attacks via fear would be cool, plus since they'll be fighting near you aura of protection works great. Shield master is great especially in your fear aura. Creatures knocked prone who are frightened of you can't get up because their movement is 0 ;)

[JBPuffin]

I think conquest paladin would be great. You have lots of melee but not a lot of AC in your party so giving mobs disadvantage on attacks via fear would be cool, plus since they'll be fighting near you aura of protection works great. Shield master is great especially in your fear aura. Creatures knocked prone who are frightened of you can't get up because their movement is 0 ;)

Oh God, that's brutal...I love it. Conquest Paladin 8/Hexblade+Tome Warlock 12 w/ Warcaster, ASI (+2 Cha), Shield Master, Sentinel, ASI (+2 Con) would be my suggestion for Option 2.

[Anderlith]

Just putting this out there...
You could call yourself Vimes & have your Warlock Pact with the Summoning Dark

Paladin of the Crown or some Rogue levels, maybe just Fighter depending on how you view Vimes.

[QuintonBeck]

I like option 1 or option 2 the most, especially given your somewhat squishy party. Your barbarian could use a bit of backup on the frontlines and some dark knight casting his baleful gaze everywhere making the enemies freeze in fear while he chops them in half seems like a good team. Since the barb's considering zealot and given the light healing present I'd encourage your friend to pick up the role of cleric. If he knows 5E he knows clerics don't have to be healbots and with a Zealot Barb the benefit of free Barbarian resurrection becomes a fun jumping off point for stories and plans.

I'd err more towards option 1 than 2 purely for melee capability although I think this option actually makes a good mix with a bit of shadow sorcerer, for metamagic and more smite slots. I'd follow the path you have of Pal 1, War 1, Pal +7, War +1 but then I'd go:

Pal 3, Sor 7 - which gives you one less ASI (Who needs it? You run on Charisma) Improved Smite (Always on Low-level smiting, yes please), Aura of Courage (which protects your allies from your schtick as a Conquest pally), Metamagic (for all sorts of quickening cast/attack shenanigans) with 7 Sorcery Points to fuel it, 42 smites, err, spell slots from Pally and Sorc all below 4th level plus your two 1st level Pact Slots, and a Shadow Hound that you may could refluff as a raven.

You don't get high level spells but you aren't here to cast spells, you're here to channel divine radiance into people through your sword. You don't need higher level ASIs so there's no need to bend class cutoff points around them. Once you hit Cha 20 you're golden.

[Sception]

Thanks for all the feedback!


I think conquest paladin would be great. You have lots of melee but not a lot of AC in your party so giving mobs disadvantage on attacks via fear would be cool, plus since they'll be fighting near you aura of protection works great. Shield master is great especially in your fear aura. Creatures knocked prone who are frightened of you can't get up because their movement is 0 ;)

Yeah, I'm definitely leaning towards at least enough conquest to pick up that aura. As much as the hexblade's abilities are especially fluffy for this build (specter summoning, at will speak with dead, maybe raven familiar), and delaying them until much later levels really cuts into their impact, I think the party is in much greater need of the paladins tanking abilities sooner.

While the shield master synergy is great, and it's definitely something I'm looking to pick up eventually, I don't mind pushing that off till later. By the time I even have the conquest aura, I'll have extra attack, and can willingly drop one for a plain old non-bonus action shove. Plus I'll already have a bunch of bonus actions to juggle between curse, wrathful smight, maybe hex, & so on. The real nice thing about shoving enemies prone to take advantage of the conquest aura is that if they're already afraid then they'll have disadvantage on the roll to avoid getting knocked over. That'll be pretty important, since my athletics will be somewhat limited by my middling strength.


Conquest Paladin 8/Hexblade+Tome Warlock 12 w/ Warcaster, ASI (+2 Cha), Shield Master, Sentinel, ASI (+2 Con) would be my suggestion for Option 2.

I'm definitely leaning towards something like this, though I'd probably put sentinel before shield master, because, again, regular old shove is already an option. Honestly, I could still see dropping shield master and +2 cha for elven accuracy and menacing, to get 20 cha, triple advantage, intimidation expertise, and the ability to swap an attack for an at will, no-resource fear effect, for when spell slots run low.


Just putting this out there...
You could call yourself Vimes & have your Warlock Pact with the Summoning Dark

This idea has not been far from my mind, though my character is a bit lacking in dex and wisdom to really pull off a good Vimes impression. Really need that +2 dex mod to properly wear breastplate for a decent AC without penalizing stealth. My characters just a bit too clunky for that. If I were really making a straight up vimes impression, it'd probably be some mix of battle master fighter, inquisitive rogue, and fiend or hex warlock. Not sure how to make that work, since I'd want to hit at least 5 levels of warlock for one with shadows.

Eh, that's another build for another time. In the mean time, there's definitely some inspiration being drawn, particularly in the sense of turning stupid orders against the commanders giving them with creative obedience, and stupid laws against the lawmakers writing them with creative enforcement.


I like option 1 or option 2 the most, especially given your somewhat squishy party. Your barbarian could use a bit of backup on the frontlines and some dark knight casting his baleful gaze everywhere making the enemies freeze in fear while he chops them in half seems like a good team. Since the barb's considering zealot and given the light healing present I'd encourage your friend to pick up the role of cleric.

Oh, geeze, I didn't even think about that re: the zealot. That ability becomes downright disappointing without a cleric in the party. I'll certainly push for it, but he ends up as a cleric a lot, and while clerics are certainly capable of being more than heal bots, party expectations can be a downer. If they don't go for it, I just might have to take that into account in my own build - either by making sure I take enough conquest levels to cast revivify at least. Then again, by the time I could cast revivify, the bard will be able to cast raise dead. I don't know.

Maybe I can talk to the DM about finding a temple friendly to the Raven Queen, where I could use my Acolyte background to get at cost healing, which would be free raise dead for the zealot, providing they have someone of a high enough level to cast the spell?

I know that particular Zealot ability mostly a ribbon, but the player was rather excited about it, thought it sounded cool and fun, and their AC is low enough that I worry it might actually come up.

You know, I almost got them playing a dragonborn conquest paladin? Polearm using, with a final fantasy dragoon theme. Really would have fixed up the party's overall AC problems significantly, and I would have been freed up to play a more or less straight hexblade or sorhex. Ah, well.


I'd err more towards option 1 than 2 purely for melee capability although I think this option actually makes a good mix with a bit of shadow sorcerer, for metamagic and more smite slots. I'd follow the path you have of Pal 1, War 1, Pal +7, War +1 but then I'd go:

Pal 3, Sor 7 - which gives you one less ASI (Who needs it? You run on Charisma) Improved Smite (Always on Low-level smiting, yes please), Aura of Courage (which protects your allies from your schtick as a Conquest pally), Metamagic (for all sorts of quickening cast/attack shenanigans) with 7 Sorcery Points to fuel it, 42 smites, err, spell slots from Pally and Sorc all below 4th level plus your two 1st level Pact Slots, and a Shadow Hound that you may could refluff as a raven.

Where are you getting 42 spell slots from? A pal11/sor7 has 16 spell slots, no? unless you mean to grind them all through sorcery points into smaller level slots? But even then, only 30sh level 1 & 2 slots total? Or am I seeing something wrong?

Apart from that, the hound is a bit too houndish in stats and behaviors for me to refluff as a raven, but is still a cool ability. I'd be tempted to trade one sorc levels for one more warlock level, to get my familiar. Heck, wouldn't even cost any spell slots, just a single sorcerery point. Well, that and his one and only fourth level spell known, but... *shrug*.

So maybe Pal 1, War 1, Pal+7, War+2, Pal + 3, Sor 6

This follows the expected progression, then an extra level of warlock for a familiar & level 2 pact magic slots, then back to paladin up through improved divine smite, and finishes out with six levels of sorcerer instead of 7. The shadow hound serves as a stylish capstone, if perhaps a mechanically underwhelming one for the late level it comes in at.

Only three ASIs: War Caster at 5, +2 Cha at 9, maybe sentinel or shield master at 18, either way it comes too late to get worked up over, and the character should work fine on War Caster and 20 cha.

Spell slots 4/3/3/3/2/1, though no spells known past third level. 4th level slots are still good for smiting. The fifth and sixth level slots can be ground up for sorcery points or used for upcasting. TBH, I don't recall if any of the spells this character would have access to would be worth up casting into those slots, when they could be feeding twinned hastes or quickened fears.


Looks pretty tempting, but I'm not sure. Sorcerer levels for metamagic and ramped up smiting in the end game looks pretty good, I can't argue there, but the tri-classed build still feels a bit clunky compared to dual classed alternatives. I'll think about it some & maybe revise builds a bit tomorrow.

Regardless, though, I'm pretty sold on the next 7 levels being seven more levels of paladin, with War Caster at level 5 (allowing me to finally cast shield) and +2 cha at level 9. Well... unless maybe I take tunnel fighter as my paladin fighting style? That would then make Sentinel a much more attractive option...... geeze, I really am spoiled for options, here...

Anyway, thanks again for all the advice. I've got a lot to think about.

[QuintonBeck]

Not 42 spell slots, 42 spell levels aka 42 d8s for smiting each day. I was operating under the assumption of light to no casting in favor of mostly smiting. I like the third Warlock level for the Raven familiar thematic and you're not missing much other than a Sorcery Point and one 4th level spell/slot from dropping Sor 7.

I'm not a big big fan of tri-classing myself but Sorcerer is barely a class of its own. It works best when complimenting Warlock or Paladin, I think in this particular instance tri-classing all comes together to present a cohesive whole. The metamagic tricks sorcerer will allow you to pull off should be competitive with higher level Warlock abilities in play. Quickened and Twinned are just very powerful abilities and extra juicy for a gish, especially one with Con proficiency for concentration.

Like you said, I think you've got your character progression good through level 11 (Pal 1, War 1, Pal 7, War 2) down and potentially out to level 14 with 3 more Pal levels. Once you get a bit closer to that level that'll be the time to sit down and figure out where exactly you want the second half of your career to go. You may find the campaign developing in such a way that one option may be more attractive purely for its applicability or appropriateness in your specific campaign but you won't know til you play. I've stopped designing characters with Level 20 as the end point since so few games ever get there.

[Sception]

Yeah, I'm pretty happy with those first 11 levels at least, and there's no telling if the campaign will even make it that far, so I think I'm good for now. I'd really like to get that familiar earlier, but can't justify delaying the conquest stuff. Level 5 without extra attack, level 6 without aura of protection, and level 7 without aura of conquest will all be painful enough already.

Now I just need a backstory that can convincingly move the character from "warrior-monk in a temple to the Raven-Queen in the shadowfell" to "jaded city guard in some mortal world trading city".