Cantrips for magical secrets

[Harrysonford]

So, I’ve been wondering this for a while. For the bard’s magical secrets, is it ever worth it to take a cantrip? Which ones? What about for lore bards, who get more magical secrets?

[JellyPooga]

Short answer? No.

Long answer? No, because taking a Cantrip instead of a Spell is the difference between having an all-day utility and an encounter-changing piece of awesome. Bards don't get heaps of Cantrips, but they get enough. Magical Secrets offers too much in the way of versatility that isn't available by any other means outside of multiclassing for a significant number of levels (at least 5). Cantrips can be had for the price of a Feat or a single level dip; chump change by comparison.

[Finger6842]

Short answer? No.

Long answer? No, because taking a Cantrip instead of a Spell is the difference between having an all-day utility and an encounter-changing piece of awesome. Bards don't get heaps of Cantrips, but they get enough. Magical Secrets offers too much in the way of versatility that isn't available by any other means outside of multiclassing for a significant number of levels (at least 5). Cantrips can be had for the price of a Feat or a single level dip; chump change by comparison.

Jelly is right. Take the cantrip you want via a Feat, you get more bang for your buck and even with the extra 2 MS spells Lore gets there still just arent enough to get all the goodness you can really use. Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper and even Ritual Caster are viable Feats depending on what spell you are looking for. Presumably you want Eldrich Blast which will work best with Spell Sniper.

[Chugger]

Feat (magic init - for example) for your extra cantrips. Go va human and get it level one, maybe.

At lvl 6 you want a big crazy-good spell like pal's aura (the one that lets you heal 2d6 a round for something like 10 rounds) - fireball if your group is weak on area blasts - Hunger of Hadar for strong area control - stuff like that. It's hard to pick - there are some other great ones.

You can even dip one level in another class for cantrips, though I'd feat for them.

[Naanomi]

*Occasionally* worth it, but not in general. Some of the SCAG melee cantrips may be worth picking up this way for very specific builds

[Asmotherion]

It is totally worth it, if you know what you pick. After all, there is a reason "Pact of the Tome" is a thing for Warlocks, which grands similar benefits.

Wile a Spell is a usefull choice, and there are indeed some spells you want, a Cantrip is something you can use all day, every day. That, coupled by the fact that they are "Bard Spells for you" (thus, you use your Charisma instead of the other Classe's Spellcasting Attribute, like you would with Magic Initiate) oppens up a lot of combinations;

Here are the most notable ones:

A) Shillelagh:

The Druid Cantrip now allows you to be quite good at Gishing, as long as you have a Quarterstuff, a Club or anything that remotelly looks like one (depending on your DM, a Bransh from a Tree might do just Fine). Bonus Action to make the Stuff magical, and then use your Charisma for Attack and Damage rolls with it; It's damage die also becomes a d8, and it causes Magical Damage for the purpose of Overcoming Resistance and Imunity to non Magical bludgeoning Damage. Investing a Further Feat (Pole Arm Master) will give you an Extra Attack with it, if you really want it, but you do have better options (see bellow).

B) Booming Blade:
If you start the Path of the Gish, it's always going to come down to one question: Were to stop? Booming Blade is a better (Spell)Attack action that actually using an attack action, and you can use it all day, every day. After investing in Shillelagh, you can use you Cha for the Attack roll, and after Lv5, it deals an extra d8 thunder damage on a hit, giving you a pseudo-at-will smite attack. It also Stacks with Character Level, and does a Rider secondary damage if the target moves.

This is all from the minimum investment of 2 cantrips, giving you the full versality of being Competant in Melee, a real "Jack of all Trades".

C) Eldritch Blast:
I'd argue that the best way to get Eldritch Blast is to Dip 2 levels into Warlock or else you miss Agonising Blast; however, I understand that not everyone wants to dip into Warlock for various reasons. Here is a perfectly good alternative (though I still don't like it :P). Use your first Magical Secrets on Eldritch Blast, and the Second on Hex. There you go. A half decent ranged attack on a bard, who does not add Charisma to the damage of each Beam.

D) If you intend to get your hands on Produce Flame, Thorn Whip, Sacred Flame or any other cantrip that specifically involves a spellcasting stat that is not Charisma (and that you care about), do so through Magical Secrets; Otherwise leave it to the Magic Initiate Feat, or simply Dip into the Class for it. Don't waste a precious Magical Secret on insignificant stuff. Same logic on spells; Favor the rare choices/things that will be usefull to your character, and if in doupt, check A) if something uses a Spellcasting Stat you usually would not be able to synergise with; it usually will be a good choice and B) if someone else in the Party already can cast that spell; It's usually better to use Magical Secrets for Versality, though don't let that be in your way, just a way of thinking if you can't decide if you should pick one spell over the other.

[Protato]

I think the cantrips can be very useful! For a Hexblade/Fighter build I did, I used MS to get Find Familiar and also took Booming Blade and Minor Illusion. Started as a fighter so it helped both thematically as I already knew Magic when I became a Hexblade and mechanically, as those are all useful spells.

[Pex]

If you want it, it's worth it. If you're considering it that means you have value on using cantrips. Presumably you're looking for an attack cantrip when Vicious Mockery is not enough. Eldritch Blast would likely be the goto. For non-attack cantrips Guidance is handy to help conserve Inspiration and/or enhance your party support role. Guidance and Inspiration is a big boon to give a party member.

[XmonkTad]

Yes, but I don't really feel like it's worth it most of the time. IMO, the best uses for MS come from it's ability to pick 3rd and 5th level spells off the paladins and rangers lists. The various smite spells give you a huge leg up with making an attack count, and the ranger spells can give you great ranged damage with things like lightning arrow and conjure volley.

MS can support your character concept and gives you a really good way of getting that one spell you need to make the mechanics work out. But only use it for a cantrip if you really need to have it be cha based. Otherwise it's not worth it.

[nickl_2000]

I think the cantrips can be very useful! For a Hexblade/Fighter build I did, I used MS to get Find Familiar and also took Booming Blade and Minor Illusion. Started as a fighter so it helped both thematically as I already knew Magic when I became a Hexblade and mechanically, as those are all useful spells.

You are confusing yourself here. MS (Magical Secrets) is the bard ability to steal spells of other casters spell lists and cast them as a bard.

MI (Magic Initiate) is the feat you are taking about :smallsmile:

[Desteplo]

For valor it’s worth it to combo with battle magic. Needs to be a bard spell
-but you only need 1. Like booming blade or eldritch blast are the most common picks for melee or archer

-lore would probably get eldritch blast but magic initiate or spell sniper does the same thing

-the point is that bards are using those secrets to fill gaps. If you are looking to deal more consistent damage then take a feat, lvl dip and last resort do a secret

-secrets are more powerful than the other two. Shotgun into a barrel of fish