What arcane caster to play?

[TheFamilarRaven]

So this is for pure (no 3.5/3pp) pathfinder, in case you missed the tag.

Basically it boils down to this. A long time player of mine has finally decided he wants to try on the DM's hat, and invited me to join the group for awhile for as long as I'm in town for the holidays.

As of now, the party is thus:

Fighter <-- Experienced player that I've DMed for, likes doing one thing and one thing only, damage
Cleric <-- I think he is also a DM, though for 5th edition
Rogue <-- Newbie 1, not sure if it's unchained or not, but I believe its unchained
Paladin <-- Newbie 2, is going with an archer build at the DMs suggestion

And then there's me. I offered to fill in whatever niche the party seems to be missing, and given this line up I thought, "Gosh gee golly! A wizard would fill in that missing arcane spot!". But the last thing I want to do is build a classic GOD wizard that wins the fights single handily, and thus overshadow everyone else (because I probably have the most system mastery relative to my group). Especially if I want to have the newbies stick around and enjoy the hobby. Which I do.

Party starts at level 1 and I don't suspect it'll go on past a few more levels.

TL;DR I wanna play arcane support. Should I stick with wizard? Or maybe just go with a Bard or some other class? If wizard, what kind of builds might be both fun and effective without resorting to the standard GOD build? Am I trying to have my cake and it it too with these questions?

[GrayDeath]

If you are using PF and want to avoid the GOD Wizard, play a Sorcerer.
You can pick all your SPells as Support, add a fitting Bloodline, and while powerful in your area you wont overshadow others (except Fighters, but then again...Fighters^^) too much.

[Psyren]

If you want to be a wizard but don't want to overshadow anyone, just don't; avoid the really powerful stuff like binding or shapeshifting. Focus on more subtle assistance like buffs, debuffs and battlefield control that make your group more awesome without actually doing any of the damage/killing yourself.

If that feels too difficult/tricky a tightrope to walk, you can always play a weaker "arcane caster." Magus, Occultist, and Medium are all good ways to downrank a wizard; you can also go with an Alchemist who hands out infusions to his party. Alternatively for a more sorcerous feel, you can go Magician Bard or Eldritch Scion Magus.

[Geddy2112]

Bard is a good choice, although you can do wizard all the same as they use a lot of the same support spells and buffs-haste, heroism, grease, black tentacles, etc.

I actually argue against bard(and sorcerer to a lesser extent), as bard will have the charisma and skills to step all over the paladin and rogue, possibly the cleric as well. Let the newer players be the face and be the brains behind the operation, but stoic and quiet. A wizard focused on buff spells and some support control/utility spells would be pretty nice. You clearly know enough about the GOD build to avoid doing it, so you can simply not use those elements. Avoid summoning monsters and encounter ending spells, instead, buff your party. Enlarge your fighter friend, make the rogue invisible, heroism the cleric, open combats with haste, etc. Avoid out of combat spells that outright solve encounters, but use things that would make encounters easier and help your party as a whole. Avoid any kind of healing or too much raw protection, so the cleric and paladin can tend to this. Use your magic to patch up the spots divine can't get to.

Also, being the party textbook you can ID monsters, once again helping your friends. Ideally, you don't cast spells against enemies or scenarios, but you use the trove of spells wizards can access to enable your allies. If you do everything right, people won't be sure you did anything at all. Or they know you helped, but they get to have the kill, the damage, all of that good stuff.

I second a buff/support themed alchemist as well. Debuffing bombs, hand out infusions like candy, alchemical items as needed. You could also do witch, which is not as good as the god wizard as being a god, but can buff and support with hexes.

[Eldariel]

Full-on God Wizard seems more than fine. It's a matter of being an enabler; just pick your spells accordingly. Enlarge Person, Grease, Silent Image are great combat spells that don't singlehandedly win fights on level 1 and such spells exist on all levels. Summon Monster I can also act as a flanker and an enabler, though for an enabling style, Summoning might stand out too much (but PF Summons are great). The class progresses nicely and offers you the ability to do what needs to be done; debuff enemies, buff allies, shape the battlefield and rig the odds in your party's favour. The less you want to stand out, the more you focus on partial disables, buffs and battlefield shaping effects. But it's definitely doable, efficient, rather enjoyable and a great addition to the party.

Pathfinder gives you two great daily options in Foresight Diviner and Teleportation Conjuration. Both could well be first level spells though Foresight is probably better than that. Add those to your repertoire and enjoy.

[Matthias]

GOD WIZARD is much less of a problem at lower levels, which you've suggested you'll be sticking at, but I'll second Alchemist as a very fun arcane support class. (In principle this overlaps with the healing role provided by the cleric and paladin, but in practice that just means that just means more room for goofy fun buffs beyond healing.)

[Boggartbae]

Do other people have to use their action to drink alchemist infusions? if so, then I would avoid it.

I'm also going to vote wizard, and just avoid using the broken spells, unless they're broken support spells.

Also, you can make a crafter with valet familiar and arcane discoveries. Then the other players will get all the cool toys that they couldn't afford normally.

[Florian]

Should I stick with wizard? Or maybe just go with a Bard or some other class? If wizard, what kind of builds might be both fun and effective without resorting to the standard GOD build? Am I trying to have my cake and it it too with these questions?

Try a Brown-Fur Transmuter Arcanist, build around bog-standard GOD Wizard basics. The three martials will love the enhanced transmutation buffs, while the cleric will like the regular BFC you can provide.

[Raxxius]

Bard to buff is a decent shout, but you already have a skill monkey and a face, so maybe not.

Wizard seems fine, low level they don't really take off like mad till they get 4ths really.

[Epic Legand]

I think most of you guys are missing the most important info for his game. Starting at lv 1, not going to far past that. Wizards suck at lv 1. I agree with the advice of not overshadowing the rest, but ask a few more questions first. Will anyone else be party face ? at levels 1-4, bard outshines wizard. Look for ways to enable the rest of the party and boost them. But you deserve to have fun too.

[ericgrau]

There's a lot of good party buffs, especially in PF. For that matter the BFC/"God" wizard is just an overglorified support role.

A buff/support/BFC sorcerer could work out well. Get the trait(s) that gives a bonus to UMD and in a few levels pick up a scroll with several copies of gallant inspiration on it (150 gp each). 6 copies for 1200 gp will do way more than a 1200 gp magic item ever will around levels 4-6. Also get tons of level 1 utility scrolls from all classes.

Go for mass, hour/level (cast ahead of time) and immediate/swift action buffs. A single target standard action buff usually isn't worth the round. However if you get a bat familiar you can pre-charge him with such a buff and have him hold the charge until the fight begins. Then have him fly to an ally and tag him before you cast another spell in round one. Enlarge person and later bull's strength is good for this. However just like these two spells aren't worth your standard action, they aren't worth your first choice of a spell for a level either. If you do a lot of dungeons then flame arrow will be a nice buff for the paladin. Likewise cast before entering the dungeon. Otherwise if you do a lot of wilderness fights its limited duration makes it a bad choice. Ditto for other 10 min/level buffs.

BFC spells are still good. You divide the enemies and make them easier for your allies to pick them off. Just don't be mean and egotistical about it as if you deserve all the credit and it's fine teamwork. IIRC PF nerfed web, glitterdust and ray of enfeeblement making them not so great. Grease isn't that great either unless you get a lot of 10' corridors. But sleep and color spray are still good. And they beefed up flaming sphere so it'll help you get past low levels. Once you get 3rd level spells you can haste, sleet storm and fireball as always.

A lesser rod of extend spell is good to help get hour/level buffs up to 24 hours.

So IMO go buff/BFC sorcerer with UMD. It'll be a blast and the whole party will love you. I've done it several times before in 3.5 and PF and I've put the best things I've done for that purpose above.

[Elricaltovilla]

At low levels I'd recommend Bard or Skald. It's more obvious that you are contributing in combat by buffing the others, and you'll be a little better on the front lines to help the fighter more directly.

[Psyren]

Do other people have to use their action to drink alchemist infusions? if so, then I would avoid it.

That's a feature, not a bug. They use your extracts to buff (and in particular, heal) themselves, freeing you up to chuck bombs or use others of your own.


I think most of you guys are missing the most important info for his game. Starting at lv 1, not going to far past that. Wizards suck at lv 1. I agree with the advice of not overshadowing the rest, but ask a few more questions first. Will anyone else be party face ? at levels 1-4, bard outshines wizard. Look for ways to enable the rest of the party and boost them. But you deserve to have fun too.

Wizards are fine at level 1. There's plenty of combats you can solve or cripple with a single spell, then rely on school powers and cantrips to round out your allotment.

[ericgrau]

Wizards are fine at level 1. There's plenty of combats you can solve or cripple with a single spell, then rely on school powers and cantrips to round out your allotment.
The spells are good not great. A greatsword kills just as fast or faster, more reliably, and unlike the wizard the wielder isn't solved or crippled with a single enemy attack.

So yeah if it's just a few levels that's another reason to do whatever you want.

[Gnaeus]

Witch. Definitely witch. Don’t take slumber, it’s op in that environment. Take ward, evil eye, healing hex at level 1. Daze as a cantrip. You can run all day. You will always be useful. You won’t overshadow anyone.

[Boggartbae]

That's a feature, not a bug. They use your extracts to buff (and in particular, heal) themselves, freeing you up to chuck bombs or use others of your own

Yeah, but it just seems like a bit of a buzzkill to drink a potion instead of attacking with your sword.


Wizards are fine at level 1. There's plenty of combats you can solve or cripple with a single spell, then rely on school powers and cantrips to round out your allotment.

Exactly! Enlarge Person is a 1st level spell, so it’s not like wizards can’t contribute at level 1.

[Val666]

Barbarian, cast Axe, win life.

[grarrrg]

Barbarian, cast Axe, win life.
Wants an arcane caster though...

BarbarianBloodrager, cast Axe, win life.
That's better.

[Baroncognito]

The Eldritch Scoundrel and the Counterfeit Mage archetypes stack, so you could be a Rogue who is an arcane caster pretending to be an arcane caster to fool mages into thinking she's not an arcane caster.

[Val666]

Wants an arcane caster though...

That's better.

You're a genius!

[Malroth]

I'm gonna second Witch, not nearly as high of a celing as wizards but has a lot of utility the party lacks and the endurance to keep up with a full party of Martials noobs who might not like stopping to rest.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Witch is very fun. God-wizards don't really take off until after the first few levels, but witches are equally effective at level 1 as they are at level 5, IMO.

[Ravens_cry]

Witch is very fun. God-wizards don't really take off until after the first few levels, but witches are equally effective at level 1 as they are at level 5, IMO.

Yeah, I really like Witch's too. Fun and flavourful, though Slumber can be a game breaker, or at least game un-funner, so I'd avoid it.

[Eldariel]

The spells are good not great. A greatsword kills just as fast or faster, more reliably, and unlike the wizard the wielder isn't solved or crippled with a single enemy attack.

Eh, Greatsword has often 50%ish to hit (+5 vs. AC15+) except 1/day, while spell saves are failed 70%+ of the time (most things are rolling +0 vs. DC 15+) and spells hit an AOE (in other words, one spell can be worth 2+ Greataxe swings). And spells can down high HP targets in a single spell while Greataxe is stuck vs. Ogres or whatever, where spells excel (yes, they're perfectly valid L1 encounters). Also, even a 20 Con Barbarian can be oneshot by a simple Orc Barbarian wielding a Greataxe. And Wizard doesn't need to position in melee to cast while melee types does so they're less likely to be attacked in the first place.

[Kurald Galain]

Exactly! Enlarge Person is a 1st level spell, so it’s not like wizards can’t contribute at level 1.
Yes, first-level wizards can contribute very well in Pathfinder. In addition to good L1 spells they've got school abilities and infinite cantrips (e.g. Daze, Disrupt Undead).


pick up a scroll with several copies of gallant inspiration on it (150 gp each).
That doesn't work, you cannot use a scroll as an immediate action.


Go for mass, hour/level (cast ahead of time) and immediate/swift action buffs.
I'm curious what hour/level or imm/swift party buffs you're referring to; as far as I can tell the wizard doesn't really have any of those except Mage Armor.


if you get a bat familiar you can pre-charge him with such a buff and have him hold the charge until the fight begins. Then have him fly to an ally and tag him before you cast another spell in round one. Enlarge person and later bull's strength is good for this.
That's a nice trick, but note that if you cast anything else, your familiar's touch spell will dissipate. Also, Enlarge Person is not a touch spell, so you cannot hold the charge on that.


IIRC PF nerfed web, glitterdust and ray of enfeeblement making them not so great. Grease isn't that great either unless you get a lot of 10' corridors.
Web, glitterdust, and grease are great control spells, as is color spray. Sleep, not so much (because of its casting time and HD limit); and flaming sphere is not a control spell, of course (also, it's pretty bad in terms of damage)

[TheFamilarRaven]

thanks for all the suggestions guys! I ultimately went with Witch. It's a class I haven't gotten to try out yet so it should be a fun experience. (If only because I get to cackle inanely because IT'S A FEATURE DAMMIT!)

[Florian]

thanks for all the suggestions guys! I ultimately went with Witch. It's a class I haven't gotten to try out yet so it should be a fun experience. (If only because I get to cackle inanely because IT'S A FEATURE DAMMIT!)

Witch is a very powerful tactical class, so much so, that you can easily get lost using the mechanics and dropping RP altogether for it - beware of that.

Try a Human Witch (Winter Witch) with the Toughness and Extra Hex feats, so you can start out with both, Evil Eye and Cackle, take Slumber at 2nd and Abeyance at 3rd. Plays different than regular arcane casters because you need zoo be in the thick of things for cackle and the blood hex, so you need to toughen up a bit.

[Geddy2112]

thanks for all the suggestions guys! I ultimately went with Witch. It's a class I haven't gotten to try out yet so it should be a fun experience. (If only because I get to cackle inanely because IT'S A FEATURE DAMMIT!)
Witch is really fun, and very powerful. Keep in mind slumber hex can trivilizase encounters and might overshadow your party. It is a powerful save or die available at level 1, making solo enemies a joke.



Try a Human Witch (Winter Witch) with the Toughness and Extra Hex feats, so you can start out with both, Evil Eye and Cackle, take Slumber at 2nd
I second this,particularly winter witch,but I could be biased (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wmoteATkSek-2S3Touag_jOe32O69sYTWNy9tnTi3bM/edit). Toughness is very important for you, as your familiar's HP depends on yours, and your familiar is your spellbook. Not getting slumber out the gate makes you more of a buff instead of a slumberbot. Winter witch is good for debuffing with damage, and while your spells will deal damage it is more about softening enemies up and staggering/fatiguing/entangling them making the job easier for your melee friends.

[Psyren]

Yeah, but it just seems like a bit of a buzzkill to drink a potion instead of attacking with your sword.

You don't have to do it in combat. You have a rogue right? Scout out the enemy. Extracts are particularly nice for this because you can buff quietly, then kick the door open.


Exactly! Enlarge Person is a 1st level spell, so it’s not like wizards can’t contribute at level 1.

Indeed - but also Color Spray, Grease, Sleep and some other level 1 wonders can solve encounters offensively too. At the very least, if you can take out half the goblin pack, you make things a lot easier on your level 1 fighter and rogue, keeping them from getting surrounded and dying to a lucky javelin crit.

[magwaaf]

If you are using PF and want to avoid the GOD Wizard, play a Sorcerer.
You can pick all your SPells as Support, add a fitting Bloodline, and while powerful in your area you wont overshadow others (except Fighters, but then again...Fighters^^) too much.

buddy of mine's fighter build does a few hundred damage a round. not bad for a fighter

[Gnaeus]

buddy of mine's fighter build does a few hundred damage a round. not bad for a fighter

And that isn’t crazy for a mid op, teen level fighter. But that hardly prevents him from being overshadowed. I imagine that’s either a charge build or a full attack. How does he:
Deal with incorporeal foes
Deal with flying foes
Deal with invisible attackers
Deal with fast moving ranged attackers
Evade enemy battlefield control
Prevent the myriad things that prevent a charge
Deal with enemies who won’t stand there and let him full attack.
Etc.

It isn’t so much that fighters can’t do solid damage. Well built ones certainly can. That doesn’t mean you can’t overshadow them or shut them out. Even the best ones usually have only one or 2 good tricks (charging, control, etc) and a very hard time if those tricks don’t apply. Which at some levels can be as easy as difficult terrain.

[Florian]

Etc.

Doesn't matter in regular cooperative groups. Something comes up, someone casts a spell at it, the martials butcher it afterwards. Done and all that's needed. Bayeond that, Iron Wizard builds and good to go.

[Mordaedil]

Recommend your fighters to put their skill points into Use Magic Device and watch them invest in wands so that they can fly around and see invisible opponents.

[Gnaeus]

Doesn't matter in regular cooperative groups. Something comes up, someone casts a spell at it, the martials butcher it afterwards. Done and all that's needed. Bayeond that, Iron Wizard builds and good to go.

It matters in a discussion of how fighters get overshadowed! Something comes up, Fighter wants to hit it but can’t see it, wizard kills it with a spell. That’s like the definition of being overshadowed. Yes, if everyone everywhere began every combat by patting the fighter on the head like a kitten and MAKING them relevant, then fighters would be able to contribute. Or maybe you mean the wizard disables it and the fighter coup de graces it. You don’t think everyone realizes the fighter was overshadowed by the wizard as he murders held enemies?

And yes, in the tiny fraction of games at the optimization level at which you get iron wizard builds, fighter does fine. Until you realize that at that optimization level the wizard can rewrite reality at will and you are still a second class citizen, if in the tippyverse instead of Narnia.

Look, I like UMD as much as the next guy, but encouraging a Cha dump stat 2 skill point class without UMD on class list to focus on wand use is just cruel. You should be able to use wands reliably at about level 16 assuming you have someone to make them for you.

Also, I find it hilarious that in this thread people hold a fighter can stand next to a wizard or Druid without being overshadowed, and in the other one people don’t think that a fighter//Marshall//Samurai gestalt can hold its own in a party with a Barbarian, Paladin or Bard. It’s frankly surreal. Half the people don’t think Fighter can do anything and the other half think it’s on a level with the strongest classes in the game.

[Florian]

It matters in a discussion of how fighters get overshadowed!

They don't in normal play. That's the point. Normal play is what we get with any regular AP, Module or PFS Scenario and that's it. Everything beyond that is exploration of what is possible with the rules, nothing else, so absolutely uninteresting beyond the scope of hard-core aficionados, an unimportant minority.