Simulacrum Resurrection?

[unseenmage]

Say you were playing a Simulacrum or maybe you just became really attached to one of your Sim minions.

How would you go about bringing it back to life were it to die?
Bonus points if the method costs less than just remaking the same Sim.

Whether Sims have or can develope souls is debatable.

Would that one spell that immediately brings you back to life happen faster than a dead Sim melts into "nothing"?

This assumes Simulacrum of Humanoids are living Humanoids. That they would eat, sleep, breathe, and age normally. That they could reproduce normally.
That they can be equipped with magic items normally. That they can make new memories. That they can emote and cognate normally. That they have volition and will, though these are limited in that they lack free will.
That they cannot gain HD, CR, CL, or character levels. That they cannot gain templates.
That they can regain negative levels, heal from disease, and heal hp damage normally. That the clause for repairing them is additive, not exclusive.

[Crake]

The solution is to a) not play a simulacrum, and b) not get attached to a literal puppet that you made, that's just creepy.

When simulacra are reduced to 0 hp, they aren't dead, they're destroyed. Resurrection magic and the like specifically functions on dead creatures, so simulacra are not a valid target for that. You could discuss with your DM on allowing a wish spell to restore the original simulacra, but really what you're probably just doing is duplicating the simulacrum spell.

[unseenmage]

The solution is to a) not play a simulacrum, and b) not get attached to a literal puppet that you made, that's just creepy.
Please don't insult me. Please do disagree. But the insult hardly seems necessary.


When simulacra are reduced to 0 hp, they aren't dead, they're destroyed. Resurrection magic and the like specifically functions on dead creatures, so simulacra are not a valid target for that. You could discuss with your DM on allowing a wish spell to restore the original simulacra, but really what you're probably just doing is duplicating the simulacrum spell.
Okay, could you please direct me to where the difference between destroyed and dead is detailed? And/or where Simulacrum are destroyed and do not die?

[noob]

Also if someone kills a simulacrum you probably want to investigate what killed it.
In this case resurrecting the simulacrum could provide a lot of help.

[RoboEmperor]

By RAW you can't resurrect simulacrums. When constructs are destroyed, they cannot be resurrected because they were never alive to begin with. Although simulacrums are not constructs, i fail to see the difference since simulacrums are very similar to constructs in the destruction and healing department.

This falls into "There are no rules so you can't do that". The rules state you can repair simulacrums but that's it, no resurrection.

Humanoid essence turns constructs into living constructs, which explicitly says can be resurrected, but there is nothing that turns a simulacrum into a "living humanoid". You might be able to get away with humanoid essence on a simulacrum of a construct but as far as pure RAW is concerned, I'm afraid you're out of luck with non-construct simulacrums.

edit: Upon further examination, it doesn't explicitly say "cannot be resurrected", but the word "destroyed" is identical to constructs and undead's inability to be raised. Undeads have resurrect undead I believe which circumvents this, and greater humanoid essence does this for constructs, but seeing how simulacrum's "destroyed" is unrelated to its type, I still don't see anything that says you can bring them back.

edit2: You asked for specific quotes for destroyed v.s. dead.


Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.
Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected.


ot at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

As I mentioned before, constructs specifically says it cannot be resurrected, and the rules used the word destroyed rather than dead/slain.

For Undead, the same, it uses destroyed rather than dead/slain, and it its implied it cannot be resurrected once destroyed. It mentions the resurrection spells can target a undead that is not destroyed to return it to flesh, but not once the undead is destroyed. Again raise undead (I think that's what it's called?) circumvents this but unfortuntely simulacra have nothing that circumvents its inability to be resurrected.

[unseenmage]

...biiiig SNIP...
Simulacrums are definitely by RAW not Constructs. They have the same type as their original.
Only three things even hint that Simulacrums could be Constructs, that a spell creates them and that they can be repaired, and (as has been pointed out) they are destroyed when they die.

And they are most certainly alive. Nothing in their text prevents their dying of hunger, thirst, or suffocation. There is no text granting them immortality. They are definitely not immune to mind-affecting.

Because the spell is Instantaneous they even persist and function in an Antimagic Field, cannot be dispelled, and are immune to Mage's Disjunction.

As far as healing, their healing clause is additive, not prohibitive. Which means they heal normally for their type in addition to being able to be repaired.
RAI they could be Constructs that can only be healed via gp expenditure. But that'd be a houserule. A reasonable ones even. But a houserule nonetheless.


Another thought occurs; I wonder if there is precedent in the descriptive text of any other spells that uses the term destroyed to describe the death of a potentially non-Construct creature?

[icefractal]

RAW, True Resurrection should do it; it's a standard humanoid, the only problem is not having a body. The spell Destruction does this to non-Simulacra, so plausibly you could use the same alternatives (Wish followed by Resurrection, or Miracle) that are listed there.

Simulacrum is definitely a spell where the more you look at it the more you realize how screwed-up it is though. Both in that it has a lot of unanswered or poorly fitting edge cases, and in that it's quite broken. But probably the worst thing is that it completely destroys any attempts at keeping secrets. You're warded a hundred ways and even have Vecna in your corner? Doesn't matter, someone can just Wish for a scroll of Simulacrum (you) and ask it to write down all your secrets.

[RoboEmperor]

You make a few good points. So I guess....

Can you resurrect a monster created from shadow conjuration that dies? if yes, true resurrection and wish/miracle probably can resurrect a simulacrum. If no then you have your answer.

[unseenmage]

RAW, True Resurrection should do it; it's a standard humanoid, the only problem is not having a body. The spell Destruction does this to non-Simulacra, so plausibly you could use the same alternatives (Wish followed by Resurrection, or Miracle) that are listed there.

Simulacrum is definitely a spell where the more you look at it the more you realize how screwed-up it is though. Both in that it has a lot of unanswered or poorly fitting edge cases, and in that it's quite broken. But probably the worst thing is that it completely destroys any attempts at keeping secrets. You're warded a hundred ways and even have Vecna in your corner? Doesn't matter, someone can just Wish for a scroll of Simulacrum (you) and ask it to write down all your secrets.

Pathfinder even has the Lesser Simulacrum and Scribe's Binding spells. Free willed temporary Sims on the cheap and a spell that literally turns them into an open book of themsrlves. Altered memories even show up as diffetent colored text and unknown languages are spelled phonetically.

I really do wish they'd ported 2nd Ed's chance that Sims only get partial memories. It was thematic and took care of part of the problem.

EDIT: Another question, when a Sim is slain with the Disintegrate spell, do they leave melting snow or a pile of dust? Which of the two spells decides their remains?
EDIT AGAIN: Disintegrate wins this one I think. It leaves no corpse to melt, just the dust.

[Bronk]

I'm away from my books, but I think this sort of thing comes up in 'Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk'. In it, a simulacrum becomes free willed after the death of its creator and tries to get itself a soul.

[Crake]

Okay, could you please direct me to where the difference between destroyed and dead is detailed? And/or where Simulacrum are destroyed and do not die?

The difference between the two is detailed in the target line of raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection: "Dead creature touched"

If the creature didn't die, then it can't be restored. The destruction spell slays a creature, and then destroys it's body, so the creature is still considered dead, but a simulacrum, as detailed earlier, was never alive, so it cannot die, hence the use of the term destroyed, instead of killed.

[Mato]

How would you go about bringing it back to life were it to die?Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature and since I can't think of a way to bring an illusion back to life I'd just cast the spell again.

Besides raise dead, and the spells based off it like resurrection, require you to touch the target and when a simulacrum dies it is instantly reduced to nothingness so you can't use them anyway. True resurrection might work if I were highly argumentative, but the experience-to-gold value of a 10hd simulacrum is one fifth the cost the cost of the diamonds I'd need to do that so there is absolutely no point in even considering it. So there is no point in listening to any arguments that claim you can resurrect an illusion either.

[unseenmage]

The difference between the two is detailed in the target line of raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection: "Dead creature touched"
Which is why I've been toying with the idea of slaying the Sim and storing part of it in Quintessence at the same time. Since you can dig a finger into Quintessence and the object isn't free of timelock until it is completely free of the Quintessence I am pretty sure Raise Dead could be used on Quintessence enveloped remains.


... but a simulacrum, as detailed earlier, was never alive, so it cannot die, ....
Are Sims immune to starvation? Thirst? Suffication? Do they not age and are thus immortal?

Sims have no special immunity to spells that target living creatures do they?

Sims are copies of the original. If the original is alive then the Sim is alive. Have they an immunity to death effects I am unaware of?

Spells only do what they say they do.
Sims are destroyed. Their remains melt into nothing. They show up diffetent when viewed through True Seeing. When the spell is cast and right after Detect Magic and Spellcraft could detect the spell on the Sim too.
That's it.

The healing is additive, not exclusitory. They can be healed. Not must.

Sims are as alive as their progenitors.

[unseenmage]

Another weird interaction. Simulacrum has this line, "At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command."

What happens if another tries to magically Dominate your Sim?
For that matter what happens when two different folks try to Dominate the same creature at all?

Doea the newest set of orders take precedence or do both effects persist and only influence the creature when one Dominate effect isn't countermanding the other?

[noob]

With two dominates the creature does his best to obey the orders from his two masters but if the orders contradicts the two masters do an opposed charisma check for guessing which order have priority.:


Multiple Mental Control Effects
Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.
from the Combining Magical Effects section.
However the control of the simulacrum could be said to not be magic since it keeps going after the spell is cast.
So it all makes the game more confusing.

[Bronk]

Are Sims immune to starvation? Thirst? Suffication? Do they not age and are thus immortal?

Sims have no special immunity to spells that target living creatures do they?

Sims are copies of the original. If the original is alive then the Sim is alive. Have they an immunity to death effects I am unaware of?

Spells only do what they say they do.
Sims are destroyed. Their remains melt into nothing. They show up diffetent when viewed through True Seeing. When the spell is cast and right after Detect Magic and Spellcraft could detect the spell on the Sim too.
That's it.

The healing is additive, not exclusitory. They can be healed. Not must.

Sims are as alive as their progenitors.

I'm not seeing how they're alive. The spell doesn't say they are, just that they're an illusion spell effect laid on top of ice and snow. They're a copy, but an imperfect copy, requiring a disguise check to appear as close as possible. The spell doesn't specify that they gain type either.

If they're not alive, and they're a permanent spell effect, then they don't need to eat, drink, breathe, sleep, and don't age. They wouldn't be a target for death spells, because they aren't alive, they can't be healed because healing spells have a target of creature, and they can't be raised from the dead because they don't have souls.


Another weird interaction. Simulacrum has this line, "At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command."

What happens if another tries to magically Dominate your Sim?

Since they aren't a person, and aren't a creature, the simulacrum wouldn't be a valid target for either 'dominate person' or 'dominate monster' anyway. I'm not sure if there's another spell out there that could work if it weren't for the 'at all times' clause in the 'simulacrum' spell.

[noob]

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow
From the first line of the spell description.
So the illusion is a creature since there is the term "the duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow"
You can not say of a duplicate that is not a creature that it is a duplicate creature.
Furthermore the simulacrum have a bunch of properties only creatures have such as hit dice or skills or feats and "special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"
If the simulacrum is not a creature however it is great since that opens much abuse and helps the simulacrum resist a whole lot of things.
In fact if something can have most of the properties of a creature without being one it solves the problems of what happens with the type of an animal that is retrained non magically to speak: that animal stops having a type and stops being a creature and have 3 int.

[Quarian Rex]

As Noob said above, you seem to be glossing over the very first line in the spell, the one that answers most of your questions, though not to your liking.

Simulacrum pretty clearly creates an animated snowman that duplicates the capabilities of a creature at half level, one that is skinned in an illusion. An illusion that may not even be that good depending on the caster's disguise check. It can even be found out by a mid DC Sense Motive check, indicating that it doesn't actually have all of the target creatures memories/mannerisms. That's because this is an illusion, not a (mind) clone. Also, I think that it is pretty clear that the Simulacrum does not heal naturally, again illusion on a snowman. Other forms of magical healing would be completely valid, but natural would be out.

Could the Simulacrum age and die? No. Illusory snowman. Could it appear to age? Yes, illusions can do that. Could a Simulacrum get pregnant and/or breed? Hells no. Illusory snowman. This is a supernatural effect, not an actual creature.

If you want to do this you will have to do it with something more real. Maybe you're looking for an Alchemist.



Alchemical Simulacrum (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/alchemical-simulacrum-su/)

Prerequisite: Alchemist 8

Benefit: The alchemist gains the ability to create a lesser simulacrum. This works like the lesser simulacrum spell, except it costs 100 gp in alchemical materials per Hit Die of the simulacrum, requires 24 hours to grow, and decays into inert flesh rather than ice or snow if killed. The created simulacrum is a creature, not a supernatural effect.


With this you would be able to heal naturally, age, breed, possibly be resurrected, etc. Or at least be able to make an extremely strong argument to do so.

[Jack_Simth]

Short answer? Ask your DM.

Whether you're talking 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) or Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum/), The Simulacrum is not explicit on a lot of things (memories being one). The text of the relevant spell is nearly the same in both (3.5's version below):

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can’t create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.

At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

Questions like "Does it have a soul?" "Can it breed?" and so on are simply not addressed.

From one perspective, it's a magically animated snowman, so "no" and "no". From another, it's a "duplicate creature", and anything not directly addressed defaults to the base creature - so "yes" and "yes".

As a result, one could argue that True Resurrection would work - it's still a creature, whether or not it has a soul is not directly addressed, and it's a "duplicate creature", so can be brought back (if the base creature could be, anyway). That's not usually going to be worth the expense, unless you were using the sim as a spy and expect the information it had when it got killed is particularly valuable. Anything less than True Res, however, and you're probably out of luck (no body at all, save maybe some dust from disintegration if the sim got knocked off that way).

However, to argue that, you'll also need to argue that the sim is "dead". "Destroyed" is not a defined condition, after all. Dead is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead). This may be easier or harder depending on the circumstances of the sim's end (Con damage to 0 for instance, is one of the things listed as causing the "Dead" condition explicitly - ditto for something like Finger of Death).

However: Answers to these (and many other) questions are not clearly answered in what little RAW we have, so you'll get different results under different DM's... and basically all of them are equally (in)valid. The only person that can really answer your question is your DM, and your DM's answer applies only at that gaming table.

[Bronk]

From the first line of the spell description.



As Noob said above, you seem to be glossing over the very first line in the spell, the one that answers most of your questions, though not to your liking.


Reading the first line, it says that it creates an illusory duplicate. Illusory means 'not real'. Later it says it is partially real, then says that part is ice and snow.

Earlier in the thread, it was pointed out that spells only do what they say they do, not what they don't. I suppose you can call it a creature for that reason, but especially for ease of use. However, it gains some features of regular hit dice but not others, it can be healed in some ways but not others, and it isn't alive because it doesn't say it is.

The things simulacrums are immune to are not abuse, that's just how they work based on the spell description. They're a lot like constructs.





If you want to do this you will have to do it with something more real. Maybe you're looking for an Alchemist.

With this you would be able to heal naturally, age, breed, possibly be resurrected, etc. Or at least be able to make an extremely strong argument to do so.

This is a good find... I think this is exactly the kind of thing Unseenmage was looking for in the opening post.

[Jack_Simth]

This is a supernatural effect, not an actual creature.It's not a supernatural thing. Simulacrum is an Instant spell. The magic has come and gone; there is no magic present post-casting (other than the lingering aura, which will last 1d6*10 minutes - an hour at most - as it's a 7th level spell). An unequipped simulacrum of a human Fighter-20 that's been kicking around for over an hour won't show up under Arcane Sight any differently than an unequipped human Fighter-10 would.

[unseenmage]

Its that 'illusory duplicate' bit that causes a lot of the trouble. Which puzzles me greatly as accentuating the 'duplicate' over the illusory prevents a lot of abuse.

For one accentuating 'illusory' makes folk think the spell makes a Construct for some reason. Where accentuating the 'duplicate' part gives you just a half strength version of the base creature.

If making it some sort of extramagical Construct grants it superpowers not derailed in the spell then it is probably not the most accurate interpretation.
And to be clear, being not-alive is definitely a superpower more than a weakness.

[Bronk]

Its that 'illusory duplicate' bit that causes a lot of the trouble. Which puzzles me greatly as accentuating the 'duplicate' over the illusory prevents a lot of abuse.

For one accentuating 'illusory' makes folk think the spell makes a Construct for some reason. Where accentuating the 'duplicate' part gives you just a half strength version of the base creature.

If making it some sort of extramagical Construct grants it superpowers not derailed in the spell then it is probably not the most accurate interpretation.
And to be clear, being not-alive is definitely a superpower more than a weakness.

Yeah, the more I look over the spell, the more I realize they could have been a lot more clear on its particulars.

There's a lot about the life and times of a simulacrum in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. Looking through it now, there's a fair bit on page 164 about a simulacrum attempting to gain more the 'illusion of life', and gaining a soul as well.

[unseenmage]

Yeah, the more I look over the spell, the more I realize they could have been a lot more clear on its particulars.

There's a lot about the life and times of a simulacrum in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. Looking through it now, there's a fair bit on page 164 about a simulacrum attempting to gain more the 'illusion of life', and gaining a soul as well.

Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk is indeed rife with Simulacrum precedent, for what that's worth.


Page 110, "With the death of Vayne, Iggwilv's simulacrum becomes free-willed"
Explicitly says that the Sim gains volition and free-will because of its creator's death.

Over here in not-fiat-land we have exactly zero RAW about what happens to controlled minions when their creator/controller dies. I had an entire thread a while back looking into the rather serious drawbacks for minionmancers who invest heavily in their creations if they lose control of their creations when utilizing the revolving door of the afterlife, as so many adventurers are prone to. Imagine building a golem, investing time, gp, and xp and then having it give you the finger when a Contingent Revivify spell brings you right back to life after a botched save.

Page 129, "Another mentions that although the simulacrum retained none of the original Iggwilv's memories..."
I would be interested to know during what edition the original version of this Simulacrum was concieved as in earlier editions there was a die roll to determine how much of the original's memories a Simulacrum retained.

Page 164, "One particularly well-annotated passage describes how a simulacrum might absorb the life of its source, effectively replacing the original. In so doing, the simulacrum would gain all the powers of the original creature, plus its soul."
Seems to be the pure power of plot fueling this one.

Page 165, "(Because she is a simulacrum, however, she did not gain the corresponding XP boost from drawing the Sun card.)"
Seems straightforward enough however preventing the acquisition of xp would be different than prevention of leveling up. I have seen discussed on these boards that if xp is memories and experiences then Sims cannot gain either if they cannot gain xp. This would seem to be an example contradicting that idea.

Page 186, "Treasure: The supplies for repairing a simulacrum are worth 25,000 gp. The entire collection weighs 250 pounds and takes up 10 cubic feet."
Is this excessively heavy or is that just me?

Page 187, "Although the false Iggwilv can gain temporary hit points from spells such as vampiric touch, actual damage to her does not heal over time, nor can it be repaired by magic—Iggwilv must spend 24 hours (and 100 gp per hit point or ability score to be repaired) in the laboratory at area N7 to repair damage to herself."
Very explicitly tells us that the Sim gains temp hp but does not heal over time.

Page 214
The statblock for the Sim shows it benefiting from spell buffs, Contingency, magic items, and what appear to be plot based blessings and curses. So a common sense ruling on 'cannot become more powerful' would seem to be being employed here. Then again, considering the plot of the adventure, maybe giving the Sim spell buffs, magic items, and minions was chump change as far as 'more powerful' was concerned.
FALSE ICCWILV CR 16
hp 99 (with false life) (15 HD); DR 10/adamantine with stoneskin (max 150 hp)
Female human simulacrum wizard 15
CE Medium humanoid (simulacrum)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect magic, see invisibility; Listen - 1 , Spot-1
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic; tongues
AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 22
Immune mind-affecting spells and abilities, scrying
SR23
Fort+11, Ref+11, Will+13; permanent-1 penalty (included) from deck of many things
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee staff of the magi +8/+3 (ld6)
Base Atk +7; Crp +7
Special Actions retributive strike
Combat Gear staff of the magi (20 charges), wand of magic missile (CL 9th, 41 charges)
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 15th):
8th—maze
7th—quickened dispel magic, quickened displacement
6th—disintegrate (DC 24), quickened/o/se life, repulsion (DC 24), true seeing
5th—dominate person (DC 23), quickened magic missile, quickened shield, teleport, wall of force
4th—arcane eye, dimension door, Evard's black tentacles, greater invisibility, stoneskinJr
3rd—extended/a/se life'\,fly, haste, extended mirror image, vampiric touch (+7 melee touch)
2nd—detect thoughts (DC 20), locate object, false life (2), resist energy, scorching ray (+10 ranged touch)
1st—expeditious retreat, feather fall, grease (DC 20), obscuring mist, ray of enfeeblement (+10 ranged touch), true strike
0—acid splash, mending, prestidigitation, read magic (2), touch of fatigue (+7 melee touch, DC 18)" already cast
Abilities Str 10, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 22, Wis 8, Cha 16
SQ contingency, lilitu's gift, permanent spells, simulacrum, familiar (none at present; Iggwilv's fear of losing her precious experience points has prevented her from using this class feature)
Feats Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Craft Magic Arms and Armor", Craft Wondrous Item", Demon Mastery, Extend Spell", Forge Ring, Iron Will, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll", Spell Focus (conjuration)
Skills Concentration +23 (+27 casting defensively), Diplomacy +5, Knowledge (arcana) +25, Knowledge (history) +25, Knowledge (local) +25, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +21, Knowledge (religion) +25, Knowledge (the planes) +25, Spellcraft +26
Possessions combat gear plus bracers of armor +8, ring of protection +3, ring of freedom of movement, amulet of health +4, gloves of Dexterity +4, boots oflevitation, circlet of persuasion, dusty rose ioun stone, pale green ioun stone, stone of good luck, pearl of power (5th-level spell), 4 doses of true seeing ointment (250 gp each), 4 doses of diamond dust for stoneskin (250 gp each), 16,000 gp in jewelry
Contingency If Iggwilv ever takes physical damage, a displacement spell activates on her.
Lilitu's Gift (Su) Iggwilv carries the mark of Livashti, her lilitu ally, which grants her a +2 profane bonus to Charisma and a +2 profane bonus on saving throws for up to 24 hours. If Livashti is slain, Iggwilv loses these benefits a day later.
Permanent Spells Iggwilv has made the following spell effects permanent on herself: darkvision, detect magic, see invisibility, and tongues.
Simulacrum If viewed with true seeing, Iggwilv appears as an animate statue made of snow and ice. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, she reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness.


All in all it seems to me that the adventure accentuates the 'duplicate' some times and the 'illusory' at other times. Cherry picking which word has the most weight whenever convenient for the writer. The Sim lacks the original's memories, but is duplicate enough to fool epic spells. The Sim cannot gain xp but can create new memories. The Sim is perfectly obedient until its creator's death, which it might have encouraged. Through pure power of plot the Sim could maybe get a soul and become a real person but only by absorbing the original so it still cannot become its own person.

[ShurikVch]

but a simulacrum, as detailed earlier, was never aliveAccording to D&D Glossary...
Living (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_living&alpha=):
Any creature with a Constitution score is a living creature. Constructs and undead are not living creatures.
Source: MM3
Creature (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_creature&alpha=):
A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.
Source: PHBSince such things as Simulacrum or Animated Breath Weapon aren't objects, and have Con score, they are "living creatures" by the very in-game definition

[Crake]

According to D&D Glossary...
Living (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_living&alpha=):
Creature (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_creature&alpha=):Since such things as Simulacrum or Animated Breath Weapon aren't objects, and have Con score, they are "living creatures" by the very in-game definition

Except they aren't a creature, they're a spell effect.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Except they aren't a creature, they're a spell effect.
There's no contradiction there; an entity can be both creature and spell effect. Simulacrum's effect line is "one duplicate creature". The summon monster line has "one [or more] summoned creature[s]".

I agree with icefractal. Wish + resurrection or true resurrection can do it: one to recreate the body, one to reanimate it.

[Crake]

There's no contradiction there; an entity can be both creature and spell effect. Simulacrum's effect line is "one duplicate creature". The summon monster line has "one [or more] summoned creature[s]".

I agree with icefractal. Wish + resurrection or true resurrection can do it: one to recreate the body, one to reanimate it.

Well, if you want to go the absolute RAW route, a simulacrum cannot be magically healed. True resurrection heals the body to CL in hp, which isn't possible, thus it stays at 0hp, remaining in the destroyed state, so the body instantly melts away.

Additionally, as mentioned, since the creature is not slain, but rather destroyed, it doesn't go into negative hp, it just melts away at 0hp, it cannot have a corpse to be recreated with wish, as the corpse would have 0 hp, and just immediately melt away.

Even if you argue that it was considered alive, it never actually died, since dying happens at -10hp, a simulacrum is instead destroyed at 0hp, a different state.

[unseenmage]

Well, if you want to go the absolute RAW route, a simulacrum cannot be magically healed. ...
Where does the spell say this?

[RoboEmperor]

Consider polymorph any object. Rock to human. Is this human "alive"? Does this human have a "soul"? Does this human die when 20minutes are up and he ascends into the celestial planes or fall into the pits of hell?

I think the answer is no simply because if the answer is yes, you can mass-produce souls, at which point there is no reason for devils to try and corrupt mortals because they can just setup their own soul farms and power their magic that way.

I think PaO and simulacrum just has magic that simulates life. Yes the creature is considered "living", but at the same time they're not "living" because their "soul" is just an emulation from magic.

d&d falls apart if you delve deeper into anything be it mechanics, lore, alignment, anything really, so it's best not to rock the boat.

Anyways my opinion is: no. Simulacra do not have souls, they are an emulation of life accomplished through magic so once the magic effect ends there is no way to restore it.

edit:An analogy to illustrate my point...

If a puppeteer manipulates a puppet so life-like that people think its real, is the puppet alive? Magic is the puppeteer and the puppet is the simulacrum.

[noob]

I think the answer is no simply because if the answer is yes, you can mass-produce souls, at which point there is no reason for devils to try and corrupt mortals because they can just setup their own soul farms and power their magic that way.

You can cast create lantern archon (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/champions-of-valor--28/create-lantern-archon--307/index.html) to create a new lantern archon from nothing else than your constitution(and the constitution drain is removed automatically)

Anyway the soul trade already does not makes sense: the evil planes are infinite and you have the same likeliness of encountering evil outsider everywhere meaning that there is an infinity of evil outsiders.

Since each evil outsider have a soul then it means that by doing basic maths you can have an infinity of evil outsiders who each own an infinity of souls of evil outsiders just by doing some logistics.
give to evil outsider 1 the soul of evil outsider 2 then give to evil outsider 3 the soul of evil outsider 4 then repeat increasing at each time the number of evil outsiders who have souls of 1 and the number of souls each of them own of 1 then you will have an infinity of evil outsiders who each own an infinity of souls of evil outsiders.

[Bronk]

You can cast create lantern archon (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/champions-of-valor--28/create-lantern-archon--307/index.html) to create a new lantern archon from nothing else than your constitution(and the constitution drain is removed automatically)

The lantern archon is made from the casters life force, which is represented by draining some Con points.



Anyway the soul trade already does not makes sense: the evil planes are infinite and you have the same likeliness of encountering evil outsider everywhere meaning that there is an infinity of evil outsiders.

I agree that there's a lot that doesn't make sense about the soul trade, and that the evil planes are infinite. And there are probably a lot of evil outsiders whose numbers are infinite, because they're formed from the souls from the Prime Material Plane, which is also infinite. They're not evenly distributed though, since there are both cities and barren places on the planes.



Since each evil outsider have a soul then it means that by doing basic maths you can have an infinity of evil outsiders who each own an infinity of souls of evil outsiders just by doing some logistics.
give to evil outsider 1 the soul of evil outsider 2 then give to evil outsider 3 the soul of evil outsider 4 then repeat increasing at each time the number of evil outsiders who have souls of 1 and the number of souls each of them own of 1 then you will have an infinity of evil outsiders who each own an infinity of souls of evil outsiders.

Outsiders don't have souls, they're made out of soul stuff... they're like walking, talking, congealed souls. That's why they can't be raised from the dead with the same spells that bring mortals back, you need 'revive outsider' or more powerful spells.

Most demons start as a manes petitioner, then get promoted by the will of the abyss, which is powered by evil souls and belief... sometimes the abyss even just creates a more powerful demon wholesale. Devils, on the other hand (at least most of them), are originally formed from a lemure petitioner, then get sucked into the devil power structure where their superiors empower them and evolve them using the power directly from the soul trade.

Long story short, Devils basically operate on 'Highlander' rules. The more souls they're empowered by (through their legal system and power structure, instead of beheading), the more powerful they are. They don't trade them around at that point, it's more like a pyramid scheme.

My problems with the soul trade is that it's always sort of hand waved away. It's there, but how does it function? You get a bit of info from the Fiendish Codex: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, but not enough to really figure it out or extrapolate it to hags or demons and so on, because it all starts with 'something, something, Pact Primeval'. There are rules for trapping souls, switching souls, and I think using souls as spell components, but aside from that...

The thing about creating souls is that supposedly they all come from the 'Bastion of Unborn Souls' on the Positive Energy Plane, and that's all tied up with the gods and fate and all that. I think messing with that would either draw the ire of the gods, or just be beyond regular magic.

[unseenmage]

The lantern archon is made from the casters life force, which is represented by draining some Con points.



I agree that there's a lot that doesn't make sense about the soul trade, and that the evil planes are infinite. And there are probably a lot of evil outsiders whose numbers are infinite, because they're formed from the souls from the Prime Material Plane, which is also infinite. They're not evenly distributed though, since there are both cities and barren places on the planes.



Outsiders don't have souls, they're made out of soul stuff... they're like walking, talking, congealed souls. That's why they can't be raised from the dead with the same spells that bring mortals back, you need 'revive outsider' or more powerful spells.

Most demons start as a manes petitioner, then get promoted by the will of the abyss, which is powered by evil souls and belief... sometimes the abyss even just creates a more powerful demon wholesale. Devils, on the other hand (at least most of them), are originally formed from a lemure petitioner, then get sucked into the devil power structure where their superiors empower them and evolve them using the power directly from the soul trade.

Long story short, Devils basically operate on 'Highlander' rules. The more souls they're empowered by (through their legal system and power structure, instead of beheading), the more powerful they are. They don't trade them around at that point, it's more like a pyramid scheme.

My problems with the soul trade is that it's always sort of hand waved away. It's there, but how does it function? You get a bit of info from the Fiendish Codex: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, but not enough to really figure it out or extrapolate it to hags or demons and so on, because it all starts with 'something, something, Pact Primeval'. There are rules for trapping souls, switching souls, and I think using souls as spell components, but aside from that...

The thing about creating souls is that supposedly they all come from the 'Bastion of Unborn Souls' on the Positive Energy Plane, and that's all tied up with the gods and fate and all that. I think messing with that would either draw the ire of the gods, or just be beyond regular magic.
My theory has been that soul trading is about quality, not quantity.

Well that and simple supply and demand. Of the few quantifiable characteristics if souls in D&Dverse is their alignment.
Perhaps on evil planes a good soul is just hard to find these days.



Question, if I animate a Thinaun weapon containing a soul as a Construct then Simulacrum the animated Thinaun steel does either creature have a soul?

What if it is a Thinaun weapon that is also humanoid shaped? Perhaps an animted Thinaun statue whose natural attacks would then count as Thinaun weapons.
Then we Incarnate Construct the thing? What then?

How about a Construct animated by a bound soul as the Soulbound Constructs from Pathfinder? They literally have a soul bound up in their workings. Do they have souls?
Do Simulacrums of them have souls?

I, at first, strongly disagreed with the idea of spells creating ensouled beings. However, what if the spells are merely creating nascent, potential souls? Or, even better, a fertile place for a soul to settle?

Maybe spell created things lack souls at first but can develope the richness of experience and quality of existence necessary to house a soul or at least enough soul like energy to make sense.

Its an idea at least, and a far cry better than shoehorning the status of Construct onto Simulacrum and its ilk.

[noob]

My theory has been that soul trading is about quality, not quantity.

Well that and simple supply and demand. Of the few quantifiable characteristics if souls in D&Dverse is their alignment.
Perhaps on evil planes a good soul is just hard to find these days.



Question, if I animate a Thinaun weapon containing a soul as a Construct then Simulacrum the animated Thinaun steel does either creature have a soul?

What if it is a Thinaun weapon that is also humanoid shaped? Perhaps an animted Thinaun statue whose natural attacks would then count as Thinaun weapons.
Then we Incarnate Construct the thing? What then?

How about a Construct animated by a bound soul as the Soulbound Constructs from Pathfinder? They literally have a soul bound up in their workings. Do they have souls?
Do Simulacrums of them have souls?

I, at first, strongly disagreed with the idea of spells creating ensouled beings. However, what if the spells are merely creating nascent, potential souls? Or, even better, a fertile place for a soul to settle?

Maybe spell created things lack souls at first but can develope the richness of experience and quality of existence necessary to house a soul or at least enough soul like energy to make sense.

Its an idea at least, and a far cry better than shoehorning the status of Construct onto Simulacrum and its ilk.
Okay so a wizard is able to create gods and planes but somehow you would not let them create souls directly?
What makes you have an harder time imagining someone creating a soul directly than imagining someone create a new plane or a new god?
You can even turn a dead ant into an undying councilor so why would creating a soul be conceptually harder than making a powerful intelligent undying from an ant.

[Bronk]

My theory has been that soul trading is about quality, not quantity.

Well that and simple supply and demand. Of the few quantifiable characteristics if souls in D&Dverse is their alignment.
Perhaps on evil planes a good soul is just hard to find these days.

Yeah, it seems like FCII implies that there are better and worse souls, they all go into a pit to get their soul energy wrung out, and the devils who get to claim to have tempted the souls to evil get a better mark on their permanent record or whatever. But, is does it matter how good the soul was to begin with, or class level, or HD level, or what? Either way, I don't think they ever bothered to go into that much detail with any of the other types of soul usage, which seems like it would have been an easy thing to add somewhere.



Question, if I animate a Thinaun weapon containing a soul as a Construct then Simulacrum the animated Thinaun steel does either creature have a soul?

What if it is a Thinaun weapon that is also humanoid shaped? Perhaps an animted Thinaun statue whose natural attacks would then count as Thinaun weapons.
Then we Incarnate Construct the thing? What then?

How about a Construct animated by a bound soul as the Soulbound Constructs from Pathfinder? They literally have a soul bound up in their workings. Do they have souls?
Do Simulacrums of them have souls?


I think it would just end up as a construct that would always trap the soul of the last thing it killed in it, but as it stands now I don't think there are any rules for making it the soul of the construct. I guess the simulacrum would have the same ability. I don't know any thing about the Pathfinder things though.



I, at first, strongly disagreed with the idea of spells creating ensouled beings. However, what if the spells are merely creating nascent, potential souls? Or, even better, a fertile place for a soul to settle?

Maybe spell created things lack souls at first but can develope the richness of experience and quality of existence necessary to house a soul or at least enough soul like energy to make sense.

Its an idea at least, and a far cry better than shoehorning the status of Construct onto Simulacrum and its ilk.

Well, I do think the beauty of DnD is that the published settings are never the only options.


Okay so a wizard is able to create gods and planes but somehow you would not let them create souls directly?
What makes you have an harder time imagining someone creating a soul directly than imagining someone create a new plane or a new god?
You can even turn a dead ant into an undying councilor so why would creating a soul be conceptually harder than making a powerful intelligent undying from an ant.

Well, wizards can make demiplanes, and steal power from gods, but not straight up create gods or planes.

In the main, published settings, the gods themselves keep everything the way they like it, which includes what magic can do and how powerful it is, how much technology is allowed, and the whole situation with the source of souls.