How good are illusion wizards? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

CaptAl

2017-12-19, 01:00 AM

Galactkaktus

2017-12-19, 01:02 AM

The problem with them is that they get all their really good stuff at level 10+. While other traditions generally have some good stuff at level 6 or lower.

B0nes

2017-12-19, 01:06 AM

Ultimately they are as good as you are creative and your DM is flexible. With Malleable Illusions, you can essentially "recast" any illusion spell as you desire, so spells like silent/major image and disguise self are great. With Illusory Reality, you can make an inanimate illusion "real" for 1 minute. Silent image -> wall of stone/steel/adamantine (DM dependant)? It gets even crazier with Mirage Arcane.

Unoriginal

2017-12-19, 01:27 AM

It depends entirely on two things.

1. Your creativity. If you're fond of coming up with interesting solutions to problems using illusion magic, then it's great.

2. The DM. If he has monsters just ignore illusions, or allows mobs to get free saves to get past your spells, then it's awful.

With a permissive DM and a creative player an illusionist can be one of the most powerful subclasses of the wizard school. And if the DM dislikes illusion magic, well, at least you can still fireball stuff.

It's less a permissive DM and more a DM who uses the rules about illusions.

Even low level illusions should leave at least a part of the enemies wasting their actions or messing their movement up because of the effect/creature/obstacle they're convinced the illusionist conjured

LeonBH

2017-12-19, 01:39 AM

Lord8Ball

2017-12-19, 10:33 AM

Once you get mirage arcana it can be flavored with your heart's content. You can make walls from nothing and difficult terrain at will. You can project a world you desire which you lord over in one mile. It is similar to a reality marble from the fate franchise. Have fun :smallsmile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW2nX4j6RR8

Tboy1492

2017-12-19, 04:44 PM

Something immune to illusion would wreck.. but those not.. makes me think of a bard illusionist in a campaign my dm ran with another group awhile back.

This party was sent to deal with the bbeg bard, who specialized in illusions. They camped at the forests edge, next day to a great start occasionally making a save. Things went super smoothly, a bit too smoothly. Eventually one of the players got suspicious and used one of his meditation abilities to give him a huge bonus on his save, and broke through waking up at the camp. Turns out the entire adventure was an illusionary sleep; and it was midday. Best way to win a fight is to have never had it in the first place, or make your enemies turn on themselves.

sithlordnergal

2017-12-19, 06:17 PM

As others have said, it fully depends on your creativity, the DM, and the campaign. For example, if you are playing an AL module, Illusions are harder to pull off because you are essentially rail roaded.

But if you have a good dm they can be amazing, and if you are the dm they can be even better. For example, last night I used Minor Illusion to make a normal forest into a terrifying hell forest. The party ran into skulls with burning eyes, skeleton hands reaching out of the ground, whispers in their ears, false banshee shrieks, and they found their corpses hanging from trees. All done with Minor Illusion. Mix it with Dancing Lights acting like Will-O-Wisps, the players were sure it was infested with undead. To the point where the Paladin used his Divine Sense out of fear.

Tanarii

2017-12-19, 06:39 PM

But if you have a good dm they can be amazing, and if you are the dm they can be even better. For example, last night I used Minor Illusion to make a normal forest into a terrifying hell forest. The party ran into skulls with burning eyes, skeleton hands reaching out of the ground, whispers in their ears, false banshee shrieks, and they found their corpses hanging from trees. All done with Minor Illusion.Minor Illusion can only make objects that can't move around and are totally silent (unless you cast it twice). Although debatably they can have some motion inherent to the object, like a spinning wheel or a boiling pot. That puts some limitations on what you can do with the visual aspects of it.

All of the things you listed work fine if they're just sitting there. Of course, the caster would have had to been within 30ft within the last minute for each thing they created. For whispers in the ears that'd mean casting the spell from within 30ft of the PCs. Luckily it's not a V-component spell, so easy to using from Hiding.

SharkForce

2017-12-19, 07:09 PM

Minor Illusion can only make objects that can't move around and are totally silent (unless you cast it twice). Although debatably they can have some motion inherent to the object, like a spinning wheel or a boiling pot. That puts some limitations on what you can do with the visual aspects of it.

All of the things you listed work fine if they're just sitting there. Of course, the caster would have had to been within 30ft within the last minute for each thing they created. For whispers in the ears that'd mean casting the spell from within 30ft of the PCs. Luckily it's not a V-component spell, so easy to using from Hiding.

1) if you cast minor illusion twice, it actually cancels the first use.

2) since this is an illusion wizard, they do actually get both sound and image ;)

but generally speaking, yeah... there would be a lot of casting involved to get the stated result.

sithlordnergal

2017-12-19, 07:19 PM

Minor Illusion was being cast several times and the illusions were only seen one at a time. Plus the creature using said illusions must have had a special thing because the adventure said it was using illusions to make "ghostly forms that faded whenever the players get close, shrieks, and more" all to "frighten people away from the forest."

Lord8Ball

2017-12-19, 08:09 PM

Cast silent image of a gargantuan boulder over someone and use illusory reality to make it real lol. Here are some rules about objects, but illusionist wizards are amazing. Also, I noticed the OP was asking for a build. My recommendation is 17 wizard/ 3 sorcerer for subtle spell shenanigans.
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Objects#content

SharkForce

2017-12-19, 08:28 PM

Unoriginal

2017-12-19, 08:46 PM

you might be able to pin someone with something like that, but illusory reality very clearly says no damage.

Would be interesting to come across some kind of titan who has been trapped under an enormous illusory yet real stone, pined down by the weight and unable to get up, but not hurt by it.

Lord8Ball

2017-12-19, 09:05 PM

Poor Prometheus :smallfrown:

Dalebert

2017-12-19, 09:25 PM

My recommendation is 17 wizard/ 3 sorcerer for subtle spell shenanigans.

Ouch. Silent Image at will at 18th level means creating 15' by 15' objects every round at will. I don't want Subtle Spell THAT badly.

It should be noted that most DMs interpret the making-illusions-real ability to be limited to once per illusion spell. You can go nuts with Malleable Illusions though. This means Mirage Arcana still presents cool options but you'll only get to create a real bldg or tree or whatever once.

Lord8Ball

2017-12-19, 09:30 PM

Well, the other option is taking a 2 level dip in warlock for the misty visions and the mask of many faces invocations and then go wizard 18. You may be a level behind in spells, but you'd have way more utility as opposed to the 17 wiz sorc 3. You can cast disguise self and silent image as many times as you want and it works with illusionist class bonuses. What is not to love?

Dalebert

2017-12-19, 09:41 PM

Well, the other option is taking a 2 level dip in warlock for the misty visions and the mask of many faces invocations and then go wizard 18.

I suppose. Not sure it's worth it considering you can already get Silent Image at will just for being 18th level wizard. And you don't really need Mask of Many Faces when you can just cast Seeming on the whole part and have that for 8 hours on everyone; not just yourself (even your familiar, just for poops and giggles). Now if you did dip lock, you could have Silent Image at will AND pick another 1st level spell to cast at will I suppose. Not sure I'd want to give up the wizard capstone for that though. I definitely wouldn't take Disguise Self at will from lock though because Seeming takes care of it. You could get something else; maybe Devil's Sight or the no-sleeping-needed one.

Lord8Ball

2017-12-19, 09:53 PM

You make good points. If the campaign manages to get to level 20 pure wizard would be a better choice than the options I put above. I believe that they could be useful mid-levels and not put as much a strain on spell slots also for flavor reasons.

Chugger

2017-12-19, 10:10 PM

DnD has really struggled, imho, to get illusions right over the decades - and mostly failed. But it's a tough challenge.

If the illusions work "too well" they risk breaking the game. If they don't do enough, then that player has wasted their character and feels awful - stuck with a gimped wiz.

As others have said, it starts w/ what is an illusion to your DM?

In AL play I've had so many DMs rudely ignore or hand-wave away my illusions that I don't even pick any of the spells any more. Only one has ever let an illusion "work" - when I basically said look I bothered to cast it - I blew an action casting it - can't at least one of them blow an action investigating it and seeing if it's real? That seemed reasonable, so that was what happened at that table that night. That's maybe my only success in casting an illusion in AL. Phant. Force (or w/e it's called) only ever does 1d6 psychic if the target fails - it never ever has an effect outside the illusion - even though in several cases it probably should have. Most DMs are set never ever to give an illusion a break, even if it's reasonable for them to do so.

I'd pick something else frankly.

NecessaryWeevil

2017-12-20, 01:49 AM

While my DMs haven't been quite that bad, it was still a suboptimal use of a spell slot almost every time. By the time my Illusionist wizard reached about 5th level I think I'd given up on preparing illusions (other than invisibility or mirror image etc. of course). Fortunately I was still a wizard though.

Tanarii

2017-12-20, 02:22 AM

With most DMs, even reasonable ones, Combat Illusions are the most difficult to pull off. Pre-combat is when you want to use them, for the most part.

As a DM I recently made a change to the way Illusions work IMC. Previously I conflated the "physical interaction reveals the illusion" with Investigation to discern the illusion, and discerning making the illusion go faint.

I'm now choosing to interpret those as to completely separate clauses. You have to use the action to Investigate to make the illusion go faint. Just poking it with a finger or an arrow lets you know it's an illusion, but doesn't let you see through it.

This makes things like an illusionary wall more useful. I'm still playing it out to see how this ruling change will pan out. But there are several Warlocks who have the Misty Visions Invocation so I'm finding out quickly. So far it doesn't seem overpowered.

Renduaz

2017-12-20, 06:14 AM

The Illusion Wizard is objectively a pretty redundant one, all things considered. Improved Minor Illusion is obviously not such a big deal, especially when you can do something similar by only expending spells of a few levels higher. Malleable Illusions is extremely circumstantial. With Major Image you can already make creatures appear to be moving, and objects, while to change the illusion in most scenarios would in fact harm it's credibility if you're trying to fool someone for example. There are only a few scenarios where you'd somehow need to use it instead of just sticking with the classic spell or even just re-cast minor illusion or major image. Illusory self, pretty much one of the most worthless abilities out there due to only working once per rest, very low likelihood of making any difference. If you need that to survive then you've already lost.

Illusory Reality, the only potentially interesting ability, is hampered by it's restrictions on causing damage ( to anything!!!! This has more consequences than you realize ) or "directly harm anyone". That's bad enough, but there were still a few things it could do creatively with a DM who isn't a ****ward, if it weren't for Jeremy who clarified that Mirage Arcane can replicate the same outcome (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/12/could-i-stand-at-the-top-of-an-illusory-tower/). Everything created by Mirage Arcane is 100% real and tangible, which people weren't sure about at first, and what's more, unlike Illusory Reality, Mirage Arcane has no restrictions on harming anyone or dealing damage. Granted, being a 7th level spell, it can be done less time, but there really isn't much at level 14 for you to create with minor illusion or major image that a bunch of other spells might not be equally useful for.

Ignore the panderers with the "Every class and subclass is a unique and special snowflake!" approach. Illusion School is an outright waste of your Wizard subclass for doings things which you could do with your standard illusion spells for 99% of instances.

Tanarii

2017-12-20, 10:24 AM

The Illusion Wizard is objectively a pretty redundant one, all things considered. Improved Minor Illusion is obviously not such a big deal, especially when you can do something similar by only expending spells of a few levels higher. Normally, you need to spend a level 3 spell to get a visual and audible illusion together. Prior to that, to get the same effect, it take Silent Image & Minor Illusion cast on two separate rounds. And (as I was reminded recently) it's not possible to cast Minor Illusion twice to get a sound and a visual.

An illusionist with Improves Minor Image is still limited to a visual of an object, so it's still somewhat limited. But the ability to get a visual and a sound out of one casting is a pretty huge flexibility boost for an imaginative illusionist.

And Malleable Illusions allows you to change the Illusion. Prior to that it requires recasting the spell. If you can't realize why that's huge, you're not trying hard enough.

Renduaz

2017-12-20, 11:39 AM

Normally, you need to spend a level 3 spell to get a visual and audible illusion together. Prior to that, to get the same effect, it take Silent Image & Minor Illusion cast on two separate rounds. And (as I was reminded recently) it's not possible to cast Minor Illusion twice to get a sound and a visual.

An illusionist with Improves Minor Image is still limited to a visual of an object, so it's still somewhat limited. But the ability to get a visual and a sound out of one casting is a pretty huge flexibility boost for an imaginative illusionist.

And Malleable Illusions allows you to change the Illusion. Prior to that it requires recasting the spell. If you can't realize why that's huge, you're not trying hard enough.

Yes, this audible+visible illusion cantrip is not worth the cost of anyone's Wizard subclass, and it's hardly worth anything, even at level 1. EVEN at level 1, goes without saying about mid and high levels. I already said, I realize what Malleable illusion does and the difference between that and recasting. It's just that Malleable Illusion is almost never handy. If you're trying to trick someone, then in 99% of cases, some sudden change only makes them realize it's an illusion. Meanwhile Major Image takes care of life-like creature behavior and object movement.

Read these two words - circumstantial, wasteful. You hardly NEED a constant audio+visual minor illusion throughout a campaign, especially while leveling up. You will hardly NEED to change an illusion 2000 times, if anything when it comes to most scenarios imaginable, you actually want a consistent illusion. In the few circumstantial events in which you might want these options, there are enough slots for the standard illusion spells to make up for the special occasion. No, not the stupid malleable illusion thing, but Major Image and others which do the job of tricking people just fine. Wasting your subclass on infinite illusion changing is simply redundant. It's not a big advantage, it doesn't even work on anyone at higher levels, it's just a waste.

LeonBH

2017-12-20, 12:05 PM

Renduaz

2017-12-20, 12:28 PM

Malleable Illusions plus Mirage Arcane makes you into a reality warping demigod in your domain. It also let's you move your Mirage Arcane so that it follows you wherever you go.

Illusory Reality means your Major Image becomes real - ie, you can summon a 20ft tall adamantine cage at will that cannot be ignored by truesight.

Improved Minor Illusion means you can create a visual illusion on one side of the room (a box to hide in), as well as a sound on the other side of the room (a pen falling on the floor).

Malleable Illusion doesn't let you move Mirage Arcane. You can change the parameters of looks, sound and smell, not the 1 mile area on which you created the illusion itself to begin with. I know what Illusory Reality does, I don't think it's worth the dedication when Mirage Arcane ( creating structures ) can do similarly and when you have spells like Wall of Force, Forcecage and so forth. As for minor illusion, yeah, absolutely fantastic, and completely circumstantial in 99% of a campaign as well as easily replicated with Major Image. The box and pen still aren't worth my Wizard subclass, I think.

LeonBH

2017-12-20, 12:35 PM

Malleable Illusion doesn't let you move Mirage Arcane. You can change the parameters of looks, sound and smell, not the 1 mile area on which you created the illusion itself to begin with. I know what Illusory Reality does, I don't think it's worth the dedication when Mirage Arcane ( creating structures ) can do similarly and when you have spells like Wall of Force, Forcecage and so forth. As for minor illusion, yeah, absolutely fantastic, and completely circumstantial in 99% of a campaign as well as easily replicated with Major Image. The box and pen still aren't worth my Wizard subclass, I think.

Malleable Illusions let's you move the point of origin of the illusion. And it still lets you be a virtual demigod of your domain.

I don't know how you're blind to a whole slew of strategies from the illusion school. Mirage Arcane takes 1 hour to cast and is dispellable. Once it's gone, you cannot reload it. Truesight defeats it, so dragons are unaffected, among other monsters.

Major Image takes 1 action while Illusory Reality takes a bonus action. Once it's real, it cannot be dispelled. It's a tactic that you can do in the same round as well.

And Minor Illusion is the most powerful utility cantrip there is.

Strangways

2017-12-20, 12:47 PM

Like are illusion wizards any good? If so why? What would be a build for them if you did play one?

Under RAW, enemies detect that your illusions are illusions by making an investigation check (which costs them an action) that beats your spell DC. If DMs actually applied this rule, then illusionists would be quite powerful. Unfortunately, many DMs regard illusions as somehow unfair or overpowered, and pretty much let enemies detect them, pretty much at no cost and pretty much instantly. If you have that kind of DM, then illusionists are the worst wizard school in 5e. For this reason, I wouldn’t play illusionist except in an ongoing campaign with a single DM with whom I had had a long discussion, in advance, about how he handled illusions.

Zanthy1

2017-12-20, 12:50 PM

Illusion wizards are powerful but you pretty much have to go straight-classed. At level 11, they can make any Major Image permanent, and use Malleable Illusions to change it to any form thereafter. You could plant Major Images as you travel so that you always have "spare" ones when you revisit places you've been in before.

I love this idea. Just like putting an illusion of a rock or a lamp post or something totally mundane that everyone would expect to be there, and just leave em all over so when you want/need you have a huge amount of resources to pull from. Like little illusion landmines

Unoriginal

2017-12-20, 01:12 PM

I think things like using Minor Illusions to create the illusion of a wall or a bush or a rock, providing some cover and making the enemies either waste their turn investigating it or take it into consideration for their action/movement is kind of underestimated.

It's not the next holy grail, but still, doing stuff like putting illusory spikes between a gnoll and the squishy team members is worth it.