Houseruling TWF

[Laurefindel]

Making this tread in part to de-clutter Vaz's thread looking for RaW builds, and also to discuss how TWF could be improved to be more satisfying around the table.

PLEASE: I would like this thread not to degenerate into a "TWF is fine as is, no it's not" argument. Lets start from the assumption that for some reason, TWF is not satisfactory, perhaps for DPR reasons, perhaps for other reasons.

Personally, what bothers me the most about TWF is the bonus action requirements, making it incompatible (or in competition) with too many class features and special abilities. IMO, it's not the (slightly) reduced DPR that hurts, it's the fact that you can't use this combat style as often as other combat style options that already deal superior damage or enjoy other benefits (higher AC, spellcasting possibility etc).

Also, as it stands, TWF prohibits some classical combos (rapier/main-gauche) or discourages them (once you got dual wielder, you might as well go rapier/rapier). Perhaps TWF could allow two light weapons, or, if "main" weapon is not light, secondary weapon must be a dagger (basically option of 1d6/1d6 or 1d8/1d4 for very similar average damage). Other solution could simply change the "both weapons must be light" to "secondary weapon must be light", allowing for 1d8/1d6 combos and improving average damage by 1 per tier, which IIRC, is about what TWF is behind.

So yes, this thread has been done multiple times but for the sake of not resurrecting an older one, post your TWF houserules here.

[Mister_Squinty]

Reposting my idea from Vaz's post, since it is technically a homebrew/RAW modification:

For the fighting style, if we want it to compare to the others, in addition to cancelling the off-hand penalty and the single object interaction penalty, would a +1 to hit (half of Archery style) be inappropriate? The flavor being that it's harder to defend against two weapons coming from different angles, etc.

And regarding the Feat, it seems that allowing the off-hand attack to become part of the Attack action instead of the bonus action jibes well with the power/versatility level of other Feats. Given that the fighter is sacrificing the protection of a shield and the burst damage of GWF, and the range flexibility of Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter, it doesn't feel, to me at least, unbalancing. It would also scale well for Fighters with Action Surge.

I would agree that the off hand weapon should be "light". Running about with two battle axes and such is silly.

[DivisibleByZero]

What I've been doing for years:

-- The Dual Wielder feat adds mod to damage and loses the ability to use non-light weapons.
-- The TWF style does the reverse.
This makes it to that anyone (even Wizards or what have you) can take a feat to DW adequately, but only Fighters and Rangers can do so with better weapons.
-- If you have the Extra Attack feature, then you gain a second attack with the secondary weapon upon reaching level 11.
-- At Monk 11, Martial Arts now offers two extra attacks instead of one, and Flurry of Blows now allows for three extra attacks instead of two.
This offsets the previous change and keeps unarmed equal to or better than dual wielding for Monks.

[Easy_Lee]

My suggestions:

Allow players to treat two weapons as a single weapon for the purpose of spells like elemental weapon while two-weapon-fighting.
When enchanting weapons, such as with Shard of Ise or similar, allow players to create "paired" one-handed melee weapons for TWF.
Change Great Weapon Master to Powercleave. Update it so both benefits apply to any weapon.
Dual Wielder: add ability to attack with both weapons when making Opportunity Attacks.

Those changes fix most of the issues with TWF and make it a good choice for many kinds of characters.

[Zman]

Here are the TWF changes that are in my "Tweaks".

Two Weapon Fighting
Add "Upon reaching 8th level, if your have the Extra Attack class feature you may make two attacks with your bonus action when attacking with a different light weapon in your other hand."
Add "You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one."

Added to light one handed melee weapons like daggers and handaxes.
Offhand: Ignore the Light weapon restriction for your mainhand weapon when fighting with two weapons.

[Toofey]

As per my recommendation from the other thread.

keep it simple, add the 'extra attack' to the main attack action and give the damage bonus to it. Add a 2nd extra attack at 11th level, restrict bonus actions to actions that can be performed with both hands busy (so no casting without paying the warcaster tax)

Alternately give everyone who takes it the feat as well, but leave the extra attack as a bonus attack.

In either event add a 2nd attack to the offhand if the primary attack would naturally go to three attacks. (which is pretty much only at fighter 11)

[Mister_Squinty]

My suggestions:

Change Great Weapon Master to Powercleave. Update it so both benefits apply to any weapon.
.

With a piercing weapon, it would be "Powerpoke".

[Easy_Lee]

With a piercing weapon, it would be "Powerpoke".

Power thrust?

[robbie374]

Personally, what bothers me the most about TWF is the bonus action requirements, making it incompatible (or in competition) with too many class features and special abilities. IMO, it's not the (slightly) reduced DPR that hurts, it's the fact that you can't use this combat style as often as other combat style options that already deal superior damage or enjoy other benefits (higher AC, spellcasting possibility etc).

Here's my take:

(Summary: drop the bonus action and make both weapon attacks part of the same Attack, and evenly split damage modifiers between them.)

Two-Weapon Fighting

You may use together two light melee weapons you are holding to make a single attack. You may roll once to hit one target with both weapons or roll against a different target with each.

Your damage modifier for this attack, your ability modifier plus any other modifiers, is split evenly among the targets. If you miss a target, its portion is lost.

If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.

Fighting Style: Two-Weapon Fighting

When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage twice.

[NRSASD]

I literally just give a dual wielder an extra attack on their actions with an offhand weapon. No bonus action needed.

[MeeposFire]

Anything not mentioned is assumed to use the current RAW.

1. You get one object interaction per attack you make when making an attack action and you can draw or stow two weapons with one object interaction so long as you do both weapons at the same time.

2. You can make an off hand attack when you wield two light weapons (one in each hand) whenever you use an action on your turn to make a weapon attack.

3. If you have the extra attack ability you gain an attribute bonus to the off hand weapons damage.

4. TWF style allows you to wield two one handed weapons.

5. The TWF feat gives you bonus AC, the ability to make an attack with your off hand weapon as a bonus action when you use the attack action, and the ability to make an offhand attack on attacks of opportunity.

6. I allow you to wield a one handed weapon for TWF so long as the second weapon is a light weapon that deals 1d4 damage or less with no unusual special abilities by default. Prime examples would be the dagger or club. This si not part of my basic houserules for TWF but it allows players who do not want to take TWF (or can't) but want to do the classic sword and dagger approach which does almost the same damage as the standard two light weapons that you get as a default so I see no reason to prevent them from having that.

[mephnick]

Two Weapon Fighting
Add "Upon reaching 8th level, if your have the Extra Attack class feature you may make two attacks with your bonus action when attacking with a different light weapon in your other hand."


This. I solved that other stupid thread with the first post.

Edit: oh that thread was RAW only. Whoops!

[MeeposFire]

This. I solved that other stupid thread with the first post.

Yea I would not call that solving everything. It adds damage sure but all the other problems remain heck damage is the least annoying part of the current TWF rules so to me this fix does not even do what I want the most.

If a fighting style does not work on a whole bunch of basic things in the game the fighting style has a real problem for instance action surge all other fighting styles get all the basic benefits of their fighting style when using their action and their action surge action to make attacks but with TWF you can only get your basic benefit on ONE of them and on the other one you may as well have no second weapon at all because it does not do anything. The adding an extra attack to the bonus action does not solve these kind of problems. If you think that adding that extra attack fixes things on the typical round this means that any round where you have an ability that works with all other styles but not TWF (such as action surge but other things like the first round of rage etc) then on that round the style falls behind again.

[Mjolnirbear]

TWF: when attacking with a one-handed weapon, can use a bonus action to attack with a light one-handed melee weapon in your off hand. (fix rapier-main gauche)

TWFS: when TWF your offhand attack does not cost a bonus action (ranger love)

DW Feat:
* when TWF and a melee attack misses you, you can use your reaction to attack the attacker (DW rogues get reliable off-turn attacks/SA)
* when TWF you get +1 AC

[BigONotation]

Caveat: At my table I've split all feats I could into half feats. Dual Wielder is a half-feat. There is no Variant Human, my Human is +1 to all stats and a half-feat.

Dual Wielder half-feat: Your offhand attack becomes part of your Attack action. Weapons you wield that use Strength do not have to be Light.

So can you be a better dual wielder? Yes, absolutely. But it's going to cost you one of your two ASI points at level up (or play a variant human).

So just when a lot of Great Weapon users are getting GWM (split into Power Attack and Cleave half-feats, both use Bonus Action), the dual wielder is also getting a bump.

Works out to empowering rogues and rangers a bit (which is fine with me).

Also, the melee character has to decide:

So the Great Weapon user with Power Attack is empowering one attack or with the Cleave half-feat hoping to crit or reduce their target to 0.

The dual wielder with the Dual-Wielder feat might be casting Hunter's Mark if a ranger, making two attacks and retreating/dashing if a rogue, Second Wind-ing if a fighter, raging if a barbarian, Misty-stepping, who knows what, but largely making combat more dynamic/interesting/tactical.

So far it's worked very well at my table.

[danpit2991]

for the fighting style we combined the off hand attack into the attack action no bonus action required unless you are attacking a different target then it must use a bonus action

for the feat we just added that you can use a versatile weapon in your main hand if you are using a light one in your off hand

its still in the testing mode and the dm is reserving the right to nerf it if it becomes too problematic

[strangebloke]

If a fighting style does not work on a whole bunch of basic things in the game the fighting style has a real problem for instance action surge all other fighting styles get all the basic benefits of their fighting style when using their action and their action surge action to make attacks but with TWF you can only get your basic benefit on ONE of them and on the other one you may as well have no second weapon at all because it does not do anything. The adding an extra attack to the bonus action does not solve these kind of problems. If you think that adding that extra attack fixes things on the typical round this means that any round where you have an ability that works with all other styles but not TWF (such as action surge but other things like the first round of rage etc) then on that round the style falls behind again.

Not everything works with everything.

Let's assume a fighter who always hits.

Fighter with Dueling:
1 attack: 9.5 (1d8 + 2 + 3)
2 attack: 21 (2*(1d8 + 2 + 4))
3 attack: 34.5 (3*(1d8 + 2 + 5))
4 attack: 46 (4*(1d8 + 2 + 5))

Fighter with GWF:
1 attack: 11.6 (2d6 + 1.6 + 3)
2 attack: 25.2 (2*(2d6+ 1.6 + 4))
3 attack: 40.8 (3*(2d6+ 1.6 + 5))
4 attack: 54.4 (4*(2d6+ 1.6 + 5))

Fighter with TWF
1 attack: 14 (1d8 + 3 + 1d6 + 3)
2 attack: 23.5 (2*(1d8 + 4) + 1d6 + 4)
lvl 8: 36 (2*(1d8 + 5) + 2*(1d6 + 5)
3 attack: 45.5 (3*(1d8 + 5) + 2*(1d6 + 5))
4 attack: 55 (4*(1d8 + 5) + 2*(1d6 + 5))

TWF in this way is fairly strong. Bear in mind that most classes don't get three or four attacks, and so this class was always going to be the worst for TWF. For paladins or rangers who get riding damage on every attack, TWF in this form is heads and shoulders above GWF for pure damage dealing. (ignoring feats) Action surge is something that's used three times a day, and even then the damage lost is... not that much. Dueling gains 2-8 more damage from action surge than TWF does in a turn, which is less than TWF gains from just existing. GWF gains 4-16 more damage from action surge, which is more at some levels and less at others.

So this form of TWF would make little sense for a fighter, but be awesome for a ranger or paladin. If you get two magic weapons, TWF becomes way way better. Duel-wield a pair of flametongues with the duel-wielder feat, why don't you? (for a paladin this equates to 4*(2d6 (fire) + 1d8 (longsword) +1d8 (smite) +5 (str)) = 84 as opposed to dueling which would be 2*(2d6 + 1d8 + 1d8 + 5 + 2) = 46

Obviously GWM is broken.

[Laurefindel]

Obviously GWM is broken.

hum, I should know better than to open this can of worm, but what if we reverse engineered TWF and applied it to GWM (and Sharpshooter), requiring a bonus action to "activate" the -5/+10. Then, it too would be reduced to 1/round and compete with Frenzy, Polearm Master, paladin smites etc.

I'd probably be burned on the spot for "hating martials", but I have a feeling it would balance 2-HF with TWF.

[Easy_Lee]

Obviously GWM is broken.

It's not just GWM.

Polearm Mastery is roughly equivalent or a bit better than TWF fighting style + Dual Wielder, depending on who you ask. And that's before you apply a fighting style: dueling with 1h quarterstaff or great weapon fighting for a halberd with reach.

Crossbow Expert adds the same benefit as the TWF style and allows you to do full damage at range, meaning safety. Notably, archery is the best fighting style in terms of its effect on expected DPR, and Sharpshooter is as good as GWM.

Then there's GWM, which is great for anyone who can use it.

In conclusion,

Rogues would rather be crossbow experts
Paladins would rather be polearm masters Barbarians would rather be polearm masters or great weapon masters
Rangers would rather be Sharpshooters or duelists (doesn't compete with Hunter's Mark)
Fighters would rather do any of the above or, if they really want to bring it, take polearm mastery, great weapon master, and Sentinel all at once. Or take PM + Dueling + Warcaster with a quarterstaff and shield.

We can think of niche two weapon fighters, like certain blade singers or rogues who really want to be in melee for Mage Slayer or Sentinel. But it doesn't work well for anyone else except in a featless game. And even then, there are problems with magic weapons, weapon buffs, and attunement.

[Citan]

Making this tread in part to de-clutter Vaz's thread looking for RaW builds, and also to discuss how TWF could be improved to be more satisfying around the table.

PLEASE: I would like this thread not to degenerate into a "TWF is fine as is, no it's not" argument. Lets start from the assumption that for some reason, TWF is not satisfactory, perhaps for DPR reasons, perhaps for other reasons.

Personally, what bothers me the most about TWF is the bonus action requirements, making it incompatible (or in competition) with too many class features and special abilities. IMO, it's not the (slightly) reduced DPR that hurts, it's the fact that you can't use this combat style as often as other combat style options that already deal superior damage or enjoy other benefits (higher AC, spellcasting possibility etc).

Also, as it stands, TWF prohibits some classical combos (rapier/main-gauche) or discourages them (once you got dual wielder, you might as well go rapier/rapier). Perhaps TWF could allow two light weapons, or, if "main" weapon is not light, secondary weapon must be a dagger (basically option of 1d6/1d6 or 1d8/1d4 for very similar average damage). Other solution could simply change the "both weapons must be light" to "secondary weapon must be light", allowing for 1d8/1d6 combos and improving average damage by 1 per tier, which IIRC, is about what TWF is behind.

So yes, this thread has been done multiple times but for the sake of not resurrecting an older one, post your TWF houserules here.
Well, if your problem is mainly the bonus action cost, and the fact that "by default" you have to take a feat to get some weapon combos, I think the houserule fix is simple:

1. Default (without Fighting Style or Feat)
Everything stays the same except...
- The "light" requirement is removed.
- You have "two weapon interaction" as your free object interaction as long as at least one hand is free (basically don't ruin fun just because you'd be artificially limited by interaction rules): so now you can draw two weapons at once, as well as sheathe one weapon and draw another at the same time.

2. Fighting Style
- You get the additional damage as it is already now.
- If you announce your intention to target the same enemy with all your weapon attacks, you can choose a -2 (damage) +2 (tohit) for all the attacks made in that turn.

3. Feat
- Keep the +1 AC.
- Remove the bonus action cost, but require the use of Attack action first.
- Add EITHER one of the following benefit, depending on your taste:
a) "as a bonus action, you can choose to focus on a single enemy to create an uncontrolled attack chain: each successive melee weapon attack made with Attack action gets a cumulative -1 to hit, +2 to damage.
b) "as a bonus action, you make a feint to disturb your opponent: choose a target: the first weapon attack you make into that turn against that opponent gets a +5 to its attack roll.
c) "you can choose to make a powerful cross-blow: provided you are wielding a similar weapon in both hands, you use the additional attack provided by dual-wielding to instead land a powerful blow: on a hit, you deal additional damage equal to twice your proficiency."
d) "as a bonus action, you enter a special stance that improves your nimbleness: until the start of your next turn, you get a +2 bonus to AC.
e) "as a bonus action, you focus all your mind on achieving a particular effect onto your oncoming weapon attack: on your first successful weapon attack in your turn, instead of dealing damage, you can choose to disarm and opponent, break part of its equipment or make him stumble (the next STR or DEX check it makes will suffer disadvantage).

Reasoning behind this is (obviously tainted by personal preference):
1. Wielding two weapons to attack with both is still something very difficult. Even in a fantasy world, I don't find that difficult to admit that you require a special kind of training (Fighting Style) to really get going with it.
2. "Feat" means something really special, something that goes beyond what someone would normally expect, a particularly high level of mastery.
3. Removing the bonus action cost would actually create a big wave in overall balance, bringing many classes much closer to Fighter: imo, this is enough to at least require a feat investment.

Hope you like it. ;)


My suggestions:

Allow players to treat two weapons as a single weapon for the purpose of spells like elemental weapon while two-weapon-fighting.
When enchanting weapons, such as with Shard of Ise or similar, allow players to create "paired" one-handed melee weapons for TWF.

Those changes fix most of the issues with TWF and make it a good choice for many kinds of characters.
Ooops, forgot about that but that's an important bit indeed.
@OP: if you don't know exactly how to "write" it in a PHB way, you can circumvent the problem by instead adding a new property to weapons: "twin".
This could also merge some of the above suggestions, while creating some problems of its own (mainly for thrown weapons). If you really want to allow "free" extra attack for everyone, here is my take.

"twin": weapons with this property are actually weapons made of two identical parts, which may or not be attached together per a chain or other fixation system. Both part are considered as a single weapon whenever a spell or feature requires or target a weapon. When you wield such a weapon in both hands, you can make one additional weapon attack when taking the Attack action during your turn.

(In this case I would just give a static list of PHB weapons that can be found "twinned" and cap weapon damage to 1d6).

[strangebloke]

We can think of niche two weapon fighters, like certain blade singers or rogues who really want to be in melee for Mage Slayer or Sentinel. But it doesn't work well for anyone else except in a featless game. And even then, there are problems with magic weapons, weapon buffs, and attunement.

The feats are a separate issue.

Zman has some good fixes for those as well.