Exalted, Third Edition

[Jeivar]

I never played either of the previous two games, but I did buy the core book for second edition. I meant to get a game started, but my play group wasn't very interested, and eventually disintegrated anyway.

Now I'm part of a solid new group, and I'm thinking of grabbing 3rd edition off of Drivethrurgp and eventually getting an Exalted game going.

Can I get some general thoughts on the 3rd edition version, and how it compares to 2nd?

Oh, and the Drivethrurpg page has quite a few complaints about the binding breaking up. Does anyone here encounter this problem?

[The Random NPC]

I've never actually played either game, but I did a bit of research for a game I was supposed to play last year. From what I hear, 2e was a mess, with the errata changing enough that it was playable, but still unwieldy. 3e made it a lot more playable but there was a bunch of little changes that annoyed the fandom. Sorry I can't be of more help, and of course if someone contradicts me go with their explanation.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I played a bit of 2e and found it kind of a confused muddle, though I will admit to never really sitting down and digging into the rulebook. (The fact that there's a full 200 page "scroll of errata" that contains, as I understand things, significant overhauls may have had something to do with that). I did sit down with the 3e book, and played a few months' worth of campaign, and I very much enjoyed the new system. The setting chapter was full of briefly described cool places that made me want to explore them*, the combat, while crunchy as all get-out, was very fun and mechanically innovative, the social mechanics were clever, and the rules were fairly straightforward throughout... I really liked it.



*grumble grumble read about places like Palanquin (a city built on and around four giant statues holding an island aloft, containing a gate to a primordeal heaven) and Izahuaca (a pseudo-Aztec jungle city ruled by serpentfolk) and find the game stuck in generic-corrupt-London-analogue-23423 Nexus grumble grumble.

[houlio]

The 3rd Edition is a lot better than than 2nd in most regards. The system is still really crunchy and big though, so it can take a pretty significant investment from players as well to really get into it. I ran a couple campaigns that went for a few months each before schedules inevitably changed and they became impossible to play.

For 3rd, it's really helpful to start the game as mortal characters and have them play for most of a session that way. This lets them get a handle on the basics of the rules, as all the charms you get and use after exalting are basically ways to "cheat" the underlying system.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The 3rd Edition is a lot better than than 2nd in most regards. The system is still really crunchy and big though, so it can take a pretty significant investment from players as well to really get into it. I ran a couple campaigns that went for a few months each before schedules inevitably changed and they became impossible to play.

For 3rd, it's really helpful to start the game as mortal characters and have them play for most of a session that way. This lets them get a handle on the basics of the rules, as all the charms you get and use after exalting are basically ways to "cheat" the underlying system.
This is true, and starting as mortals actually seems like a pretty good way to get used to things. Do a session or two as pure mortals to get used to the basic mechanics. Then Exalt and add in Excellencies and Anima effects, to get used to the flow of motes. After a session or so, throw in maybe 5-6 Charms, maybe just a few in your Supernal skill. Only then add the rest of the ~10 starting Charms. It's a lot to keep track of-- I'm objectively good at mechanics, and even I needed to make some flowcharts for combat/social stuff with notes about when I could use certain Charms.

[Jeivar]

Can someone give me some general advice on what Solar Exalted players are expected to get up to?

[lightningcat]

Can someone give me some general advice on what Solar Exalted players are expected to get up to?

They are heroes out of myth and legend, similar to Beowulf, Hercules, or the Monkey King (althouh he is more of a lunar). They fight epic monsters, conquer kingdoms, and get into insane amounts of trouble. Final Fantasy games are also a source of plot ideas, especially side quests.

[Jeivar]

They are heroes out of myth and legend, similar to Beowulf, Hercules, or the Monkey King (althouh he is more of a lunar). They fight epic monsters, conquer kingdoms, and get into insane amounts of trouble. Final Fantasy games are also a source of plot ideas, especially side quests.

I mean what kind of enemies and situations are appropriate for beginner characters.

[jindra34]

I mean what kind of enemies and situations are appropriate for beginner characters.

Your in a kingdom where everyone wants you dead if they find out your a Solar: Survive, and still do your job of making the world a better place.

[houlio]

I mean what kind of enemies and situations are appropriate for beginner characters.

This is the difficult part. A combat focused dawn caste will have little trouble making mincemeat of most of the quick characters, while a twilight caste sorcerer will struggle more to survive or contribute to those kinds of fights. Alternatively, your presence focused zenith is going to be in control of most social situations while dawn mcfacepunch isn’t going to be able to do so much talking (although this has been improved somewhat in 3rd).

This why I highly recommend starting out as mortals so you can get the chance to understand how the systems work, because appropriate enemies will entirely depend on you and your group. Jumping straight in to a fight with charms and artifacts will generally result in one side curbstomping the other if you don’t all know what is happening. Exalted will tell you all the time to go big, but there’s nothing wrong with starting out small. A pretty usual escalation of threats for me in exalted is to go from normal/mundane (especially if it’s your first time) to dragonblooded / a Wyld Hunt to other celestial or solar exalts. Exalted is very much a game where you should simply throw a problem at the players and then let them sort it out.

[Jeivar]

What about dealing with rogue gods? I'm looking through the pdf for the base book, and there's a lot of mention of gods forcing prayer and sacrifices from humans. Is punching them into submission part of the Solar workload?


This is the difficult part. A combat focused dawn caste will have little trouble making mincemeat of most of the quick characters, while a twilight caste sorcerer will struggle more to survive or contribute to those kinds of fights. Alternatively, your presence focused zenith is going to be in control of most social situations while dawn mcfacepunch isn’t going to be able to do so much talking (although this has been improved somewhat in 3rd).

Right. I'll have to talk to the players about what kind of game we'll have.


Your in a kingdom where everyone wants you dead if they find out your a Solar: Survive, and still do your job of making the world a better place.

Do ST's traditionally heavily work with the Anathema business? As in, the players can't really reveal themselves anywhere civilised?

[jindra34]

Do ST's traditionally heavily work with the Anathema business? As in, the players can't really reveal themselves anywhere civilised?

It depends on the area and how much 'good' they've done for the area. Its best (IMHO) used as a lingering threat to prevent them from being to open to early into an arc. But it should always be something that is hanging over the players heads, because rumors will eventually get out, attention will be drawn and things will get very messy IF they don't watch themselves.

[houlio]

What about dealing with rogue gods? I'm looking through the pdf for the base book, and there's a lot of mention of gods forcing prayer and sacrifices from humans. Is punching them into submission part of the Solar workload?

That entirely is appropriate. Usually, I would group gods into the same tier as dealing with dragon-blooded, but gods can vary wildly in power. My reasoning is that you will have a group of solars working against a god, while when facing against DB's, you will be facing against a group. You also should remember that despite the power of the melee charm tree, it's also entirely valid to talk (or sing/dance/compose poetry) your enemies into submission in Exalted.


Do ST's traditionally heavily work with the Anathema business? As in, the players can't really reveal themselves anywhere civilised?

It's up to your call. Some places, like Chiaroscuro or Lookshy can pretty easily involve Anathema, but usually only if the players submit to local authorities. The power and influence of the Immaculate Order, the All Seeing Eye (the Realm's intelligence service), and Wyld Hunts are largely up to Storyteller fiat. That said, having to deal with a Wyld Hunt seems to be considered a pretty normal moment in games involving Solars. Whether that Wyld Hunt takes the shape of 3 Immaculate Monks, an airship filled with elite troops led by several experienced DB's and a Sidereal assassin, or an entire legion is up to you (and should probably fit the game you want to play).

One of the assumptions about a Solar game is that the mere presence of the PCs will upset the setting. Narratively, a Solar game is about trying to make room for yourself in a world already busting at the seams (and then what happens to the stuff you push out of the way).

[Andreaz]

What about dealing with rogue gods? I'm looking through the pdf for the base book, and there's a lot of mention of gods forcing prayer and sacrifices from humans. Is punching them into submission part of the Solar workload?Very much so. Part and parcel of the life of the Exalted is that by winning the world over from its creators, the gods gave them the full authority and right to rule creation. Gods have their place in there, and the exalted have the full authority to put them in their place.

Do ST's traditionally heavily work with the Anathema business? As in, the players can't really reveal themselves anywhere civilised?Very much so as well! Winning people over so you can reveal yourself is a big thing, and expect most civilizations to buy into the immaculate faith.

Of course, glowing iconic in the middle of a far off village no one even seems to want to think about is not going to be as troublesome as doing so in the center of a major city near the threshold. Wyld Hunts are terrifying gatherings of power against the anathema, and even in a far off major city you can still expect one to gather within days of a bonfire reveal. Within weeks you have a small army.

[Vhaidara]

I figure the best way to describe solar power levels is with an example from a game

The game I'm in, we've got a circle of 4 Solars (missing a Zenith) and a Fire Aspect Dragonblood (using a homebrew DB). The DB was a prominent figure in the city, and the rest of us have been rising to prominence in defending the city from barbarian hordes.

Now, for a little perspective on Solar power levels. My Essence 1 Brawl Supernal Dawn, when an army was attacking, punched an elephant across the battlefield, through multiple battlegroups, and into another elephant. This is a character who is essentially fresh out of chargen (Heaven Thunder Hammer is a HELL of a drug). Our Eclipse was busy brainwashing the city's government, our Night Caste was robbing the current ruler of the city blind, and our Twilight was crapping out the highest quality everything in for a few hundred miles. Meanwhile the DB has the political clout to keep us all from getting massacred by the Wyld Hunt (and had to use it enough that his Tie of Awe towards solars has shifted to one of Anxiety, because holy crap these people are INSANE)

Then we went to investigate a first age vault we'd heard rumors about, hoping to get some bigger guns for fighting the barbarian leader. There we encountered 2 people who turned out to be Infernals (homebrew had been done by the ST). This is where we learned what can kill a solar. Namely being shot through the chest with an arrow of anima the size of a semi truck. And thus died my first Exalted character.

Fast forward several sessions and we find out why this barbarian leader has been such a serious pita is because he's actually a freaking deathlord with a full circle of Abyssals. Well, almost a full circle, his Daybreak has bailed on him and is where we got this info. Currently we're squaring off against his army. In 5 weeks I (playing a new, more defensive Dawn) turned about 400 peasant conscripts into the most dangerous fighting force in the region, while the Twilight gave them the best mortal gear they can carry. The Eclipse has summoned up a small army of varied demons, while the DB has done the same with elementals (which I then trained in my spare week).The Night snuck into the enemy camp and got a full copy of their battle plans. The Eclipse also, with the help of the Daybreak, has (possibly) convinced the enemy Day to sit the fight out.

Next session is tomorrow, and I know I plan on putting a sword through the deathlord's heart. Or, from everything I've been told, I'm going to get bitchslapped so hard it's going to kill my next 6 characters. But I'm going to do it anyways. Because Solars are ****ing insane.

For some anime examples, frankly a lot of protagonists could be solars, ut the most obvious is Goku. Goku is the quintessential Dawn (with spec into sorcery for his big charge up attacks). Down to getting a giant glowing golden aura when he powers up.

EDIT: Anyone who's interested in the game is welcome on the Exalted 3e discord (https://discord.gg/d2r2A2), btw. Good place to find games/homebrew as well as generally discuss the game

[Jeivar]

So, I'm gradually working my way through the book but finding nothing about God-Blooded other than occasion mentions of the name. They are the mortal-ish offspring of Gods, Exalted and the like, correct? Sort of like Hercules? What are the basics on these folks and their abilities?

[Vhaidara]

So, the core book didn't really give a lot of play details for anything but Solars. There's some sample characters in the back for the other exalts, and some information has been leaked for the upcoming (as in should be the next month or so) Dragonblood), but they don't really have details on statting for the godblooded. As far as i know, they are specifically the mortal offspring of Gods, not exalts (at the very least it's not terrestrial exalts, since Dragonblood have family based dynasties). So most information people would have now would come form first and second editions (I didn't play then so i don't really know).

[Lord Raziere]

So, I'm gradually working my way through the book but finding nothing about God-Blooded other than occasion mentions of the name. They are the mortal-ish offspring of Gods, Exalted and the like, correct? Sort of like Hercules? What are the basics on these folks and their abilities?

the basics on these folk themselves is that they're offspring of the gods and their abilities mostly consist of potentially different cosmetic appearance, being potentially privileged enough to be raised by a god, and being either objects of worship in the Threshold or objects of shame and disapproval on the Blessed Isle because coupling with the gods is a no-no in the Immaculate philosophy. maybe if they're super-ultra-mega-lucky they get some sort random supernatural power out of it that will be surpassed effortlessly by the next Exalt they see.

basically they're privileged divine brats. like the son of a noble, except literal son of a god:
"I'm the son of the river god, be nice to me or I tell father and he will flood your soldamn village."

[HighPriest]

basically they're privileged divine brats. like the son of a noble, except literal son of a god:
"I'm the son of the river god, be nice to me or I tell father and he will flood your soldamn village."

While that's true for some, I'd argue that for every one that has that much clout with their divine parent, there are probably at least three or four times as many whose parent either doesn't care or doesn't know that they exist.

Also, it's worth noting that while "god-blooded" may be the generic term that you'll see referenced, they aren't the only type of "x-blooded" out there. There are also fey-blooded, demon-blooded, ghost-blooded, and so forth. Pretty much anything supernatural seems to be able to create unfortunate mostly-mortal spawnlings.

Note that all of the above is from 2E and 1E, which aren't currently in favor with 3E people. So this might not end up being true in the new line.

[Lord Raziere]

While that's true for some, I'd argue that for every one that has that much clout with their divine parent, there are probably at least three or four times as many whose parent either doesn't care or doesn't know that they exist.

Also, it's worth noting that while "god-blooded" may be the generic term that you'll see referenced, they aren't the only type of "x-blooded" out there. There are also fey-blooded, demon-blooded, ghost-blooded, and so forth. Pretty much anything supernatural seems to be able to create unfortunate mostly-mortal spawnlings.

Note that all of the above is from 2E and 1E, which aren't currently in favor with 3E people. So this might not end up being true in the new line.

Doesn't work like that.

Exalted fans and designers are all about Exalts being special above everyone else. God-blooded/whatever-blooded being privileged spoiled brats or outcasts or orphans whose supernatural heritage means little to jack-squat compared to your average Dragon-Blooded who are both more powerful and consistent about being spoiled brats about it is EXACTLY what they've always been about. Heck, people were HAPPY when half-castes got written out, so that the specialness of Exalts wasn't being diluted anymore.

and the writers are even worse about that, because they're the ones who outright designed Exigents, who are basically like god-blooded but: better and Exalts and basically have more unique, interesting and varied ways to Exalt then just being born. Exalted is all about fandom splat pecking order: Solars are on top, all other Exalts are middle, and mortals are bottom no matter whose parents you are. Doesn't matter if your a farm boy or the son of Malfeas himself, Exaltation is where its at and that is where it will stay.

God-blooded are so far down that totem pole, its unlikely you'll ever get more than a cursory "just play a mortal with some merits" because thats what you do to play God-blooded. I'm still waiting on that Dragon-Blooded book. you know that is what, taking them years to put out just like their core book? we'll be lucky to get to Sidereals at this rate bub. god-blooded? pfh. unimportant, minor and a waste of time compared to the important stuff they still haven't gotten out. when four of your five core splats are still in glacial development after years with no signs of getting out, you got problems, and this is after the fandom basically broke into three when the core book actually came out way after it was promised. I'm just letting you know now how screwed up the situation is to be kind so that you don't waste your time holding your breath. I wouldn't even use the 3e Exalted system to play Exalted these days, because its so clearly not a complete game, that will so clearly never be finished in time for me to enjoy any of it.

I mean sure, Arms of the Chosen came out recently, and I guess thats good, but thats after how long by now? and they still don't have Dragon-Blooded out. Freaking sad really.

[Braininthejar2]

For some anime examples, frankly a lot of protagonists could be solars, ut the most obvious is Goku. Goku is the quintessential Dawn (with spec into sorcery for his big charge up attacks). Down to getting a giant glowing golden aura when he powers up.

I've been told that One Piece comes very close, both in terms of power levels, and the themes involved.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4RNWbP1G-E

[Morty]

Well, this thread had managed to last a while before Raziere's personal crusade against 3E Exalted entered it. To provide some actual information:


So, I'm gradually working my way through the book but finding nothing about God-Blooded other than occasion mentions of the name. They are the mortal-ish offspring of Gods, Exalted and the like, correct? Sort of like Hercules? What are the basics on these folks and their abilities?

God-Blooded are as varied as gods themselves. We don't have rules for them in 3E yet, but they're supposed to range from mostly-mortal people with some minor supernatural traits, to those with actual Charms and such. I think most of them don't have full-blown Charms, though. So, yes. Mortal offspring of gods, though I don't think it needs to be literal offspring. You don't need a god pulling a Zeus and impregnating a mortal woman, or vice versa.

Either way, they're not as powerful as Exalted, so Hercules probably wouldn't be a God-Blooded in Exalted. Some dedicated rules are in the pipeline somewhere, but right now you could make one with some Supernatural merits and maybe a Spirit Charm or two.

[Lord Raziere]

Well, this thread had managed to last a while before Raziere's personal crusade against 3E Exalted entered it. To provide some actual information:


HA!

thats funny. its not really crusade though. this is the first time I've thought about it in like how long? I don't even remember because the books take THAT long to come out. the only system in it I don't want anything to do with is the crafting system and I don't see any problem with the fluff. been too busy to think about Exalted because I'm actually enjoying myself with things that have actual content and update on time. Its funny to me, because why would I crusade against something so anemically slow? :smallamused:

like they have a mostly good system, they got the foundation covered, if they were faster with how they put out books, and y'know got all the basics of the setting out so that I can have fun with it, I'd be happy but given how they still haven't even accomplished Dragon-Blooded....I'm just being honest dude. its a mostly good system but its like, not even complete after so long. Honestly, I'd rather "crusade" against something like orcs being evil in more generic fantasy. That still needs some hardcore crusadin' right there.

Call me when Dragon-Blooded comes out and I'll see if there is anything worth crusading against, but until then, I'm just here to let people know the facts.

[Braininthejar2]

While we have some people versed in exalted 3rd ed here:

What happens if an archer charm designed for hitting multiple targets is employed against a battle group? Or is it not a legal target?

[Morty]

I wouldn't say I'm "versed", but I'm pretty sure battle groups count as single targets for the purposes of multi-attack Charms. Nothing says they don't, while some attacks do have extra effect against battle groups, like spells. Don't quote me on that, though.

[houlio]

While we have some people versed in exalted 3rd ed here:

What happens if an archer charm designed for hitting multiple targets is employed against a battle group? Or is it not a legal target?

I’m also not really that versed, but you could also look at the spell obsidian butterflies or whatever it’s called. If I remember right, it essentially just does some extra damage to battle groups, which seems appropriate for your case. Perhaps add the caveat that the charm can’t target anybody else.

[SaurOps]

It's up to your call. Some places, like Chiaroscuro or Lookshy can pretty easily involve Anathema, but usually only if the players submit to local authorities. The power and influence of the Immaculate Order, the All Seeing Eye (the Realm's intelligence service), and Wyld Hunts are largely up to Storyteller fiat. That said, having to deal with a Wyld Hunt seems to be considered a pretty normal moment in games involving Solars. Whether that Wyld Hunt takes the shape of 3 Immaculate Monks, an airship filled with elite troops led by several experienced DB's and a Sidereal assassin, or an entire legion is up to you (and should probably fit the game you want to play).

One of the assumptions about a Solar game is that the mere presence of the PCs will upset the setting. Narratively, a Solar game is about trying to make room for yourself in a world already busting at the seams (and then what happens to the stuff you push out of the way).

Solars, Lunars, and Abyssals are not welcome in Lookshy. They still follow the Immaculate Philosophy over there even if it isn't the Immaculate Order and don't preach about it, and that means that if one of those types of Exalted wanders up to the Seventh Legion's stomping grounds, they'll end up being killed deader than dead unless they're in disguise and very circumspect.

[houlio]

Solars, Lunars, and Abyssals are not welcome in Lookshy. They still follow the Immaculate Philosophy over there even if it isn't the Immaculate Order and don't preach about it, and that means that if one of those types of Exalted wanders up to the Seventh Legion's stomping grounds, they'll end up being killed deader than dead unless they're in disguise and very circumspect.

My understanding is that the Immaculate Faith is basically universal across Creation, minus a few groups like the Lintha. That doesn't mean that everyone is fanatical about it (especially considering the way that religion and cosmology work in Exalted). I could easily see Lookshy publicly repudiating Anathema while making discreet and deniable backroom deals with them to get leg a up against the Realm, but I will entirely admit that this might contradict canon (to which I would also add "burn down whatever established canon there is and do whatever you want with the game").

[jindra34]

My understanding is that the Immaculate Faith is basically universal across Creation, minus a few groups like the Lintha. That doesn't mean that everyone is fanatical about it (especially considering the way that religion and cosmology work in Exalted). I could easily see Lookshy publicly repudiating Anathema while making discreet and deniable backroom deals with them to get leg a up against the Realm, but I will entirely admit that this might contradict canon (to which I would also add "burn down whatever established canon there is and do whatever you want with the game").

Nope that is about entirely how Lookshy does it in canon. Provided your discreet enough about whatever you are that they can deny knowing you were Anathema they won't look to hard. Go flaring your banner all up and down the street? Same result as anywhere else. Keep it low key so that people could reasonably claim your just an unusually skilled god-blooded? They won't look too hard.

[Morty]

I wouldn't say the Immaculate Faith is universal. The Realm enforces it within its sphere of influence, but parts of the Threshold outside its control won't necessarily subscribe to it. Especially those ruled by Lunars.

[SaurOps]

My understanding is that the Immaculate Faith is basically universal across Creation, minus a few groups like the Lintha. That doesn't mean that everyone is fanatical about it (especially considering the way that religion and cosmology work in Exalted). I could easily see Lookshy publicly repudiating Anathema while making discreet and deniable backroom deals with them to get leg a up against the Realm, but I will entirely admit that this might contradict canon (to which I would also add "burn down whatever established canon there is and do whatever you want with the game").

No, it does not in fact make deals of this sort with any degree of regularity. It views Anathema as a threat to the security of the region on par with the Realm, or possibly worse, and thinks many of the same things about them that the Realm does. The fact that the Mask of Winters, one of their greatest foes, commands many Anathema means that it would generally take another massive invasion of Fair Folk to get them to make any Enemy Mine arrangement, and those don't happen anymore, since the Realm Defense Grid pretty solidly reduced the teeming hordes of fae to a few patches of stragglers who can't readily expand their territory to any meaningful degree.

[houlio]

No, it does not in fact make deals of this sort with any degree of regularity. It views Anathema as a threat to the security of the region on par with the Realm, or possibly worse, and thinks many of the same things about them that the Realm does. The fact that the Mask of Winters, one of their greatest foes, commands many Anathema means that it would generally take another massive invasion of Fair Folk to get them to make any Enemy Mine arrangement, and those don't happen anymore, since the Realm Defense Grid pretty solidly reduced the teeming hordes of fae to a few patches of stragglers who can't readily expand their territory to any meaningful degree.

Sure, that makes total sense to me. However, I also don’t think that the only possible interpretation of Lookshy policy based on their position in the setting. I could also pretty easily see Lookshy’s General Staff desperately looking for anything to give them a leg up against a new and unknown foe at the same time that other elements of the General Staff take a hardline approach on Anathema.

And again, I’m not terribly interested in canon, but I believe it’s a legitimate possibility to hat can see play on more tables than mine.


Nope that is about entirely how Lookshy does it in canon. Provided your discreet enough about whatever you are that they can deny knowing you were Anathema they won't look to hard. Go flaring your banner all up and down the street? Same result as anywhere else. Keep it low key so that people could reasonably claim your just an unusually skilled god-blooded? They won't look too hard.

I was just thinking that would be an interesting dragonblooded game. The players are all in some super black-ops assignment to remove traces of Lookshy and Solar cooperation.

[Morty]

Seems like the new Adversaries of the Chosen chapter has a mortal empowered by one of the Deathlords, but not an Abyssal. It's not a god-blooded, but I feel like it's an example of what empowered people who aren't Exalted might look like.

[SaurOps]

Sure, that makes total sense to me. However, I also don’t think that the only possible interpretation of Lookshy policy based on their position in the setting. I could also pretty easily see Lookshy’s General Staff desperately looking for anything to give them a leg up against a new and unknown foe at the same time that other elements of the General Staff take a hardline approach on Anathema.

And again, I’m not terribly interested in canon, but I believe it’s a legitimate possibility to hat can see play on more tables than mine.

Lookshy is principled to the point of falling on its sword. See also, the Gunzota Incident. They were willing to sacrifice massive quantities of lives, valuable equipment, and a strategic vantage point to make sure that cronyism and corruption were gutted and curtailed near-completely. This is the sort of reaction that hardliners would have if they got wind of a pro-Solar faction... but seriously, they're as unlikely to have one as the Realm is. Their influence is predicated on Dragon-Blooded hegemonic society. There's no room in the culture that they uphold for supporting Celestial Exalted, and anyone willing to cross that line is going to be all alone when the hammer comes down on them for it.

Also, what "new, unknown foe" is there that they couldn't handle? EX3 eschews dropping world-dooming threats into the setting because it didn't work out very well the last two times they just went wild with them. It also doesn't assume that Dragon-Blooded are completely helpless even with First Age artifice, and they have about ten times as many Dragon-Blooded as there are Solars, Abyssals, and Infernals combined, as well as a culture that embraces sorcery as a craft to be mastered and put into service for the Seventh Legion, even if by mortals. They seriously do not need help to keep rolling their own way.

[houlio]

Lookshy is principled to the point of falling on its sword. See also, the Gunzota Incident. They were willing to sacrifice massive quantities of lives, valuable equipment, and a strategic vantage point to make sure that cronyism and corruption were gutted and curtailed near-completely. This is the sort of reaction that hardliners would have if they got wind of a pro-Solar faction... but seriously, they're as unlikely to have one as the Realm is. Their influence is predicated on Dragon-Blooded hegemonic society. There's no room in the culture that they uphold for supporting Celestial Exalted, and anyone willing to cross that line is going to be all alone when the hammer comes down on them for it.

Got that citation (as in which book its from)? Not out of any kind of challenge, but because I just want to more about the lore and would love to hear it. I've been thinking that the kind of internal power struggle of whether or not to tacitly work with celestial exalted would be some primo tier drama for a Lookshy based DB game.

I can also see any "non-hardliners" (haven't recently read up on every major Gens, but that's probably most of them) ready to at least let celestial exalted go to work without interference assuming that Lookshy maintains its sovereignty. I don't really see their involvement in the River Province as anything other than extended self-interest. Despite what their fancy shogunate honor says, I don't see the river province being any worse off under the Realm overall than what it is now.


Also, what "new, unknown foe" is there that they couldn't handle? EX3 eschews dropping world-dooming threats into the setting because it didn't work out very well the last two times they just went wild with them. It also doesn't assume that Dragon-Blooded are completely helpless even with First Age artifice, and they have about ten times as many Dragon-Blooded as there are Solars, Abyssals, and Infernals combined, as well as a culture that embraces sorcery as a craft to be mastered and put into service for the Seventh Legion, even if by mortals. They seriously do not need help to keep rolling their own way.

Seems to me that a sudden invasion of ghosts and a city-sized monstrosity as well as a whole new brand of Anathema entirely fits with "new, unknown foe". However, I'm getting the sense that the two of us would get more mileage out of running our Lookshys differently, so if yours is entirely prepared for every circumstance (like being suddenly invaded by previously unknown existential threats) then that seems entirely plausible. I tend to think of Lookshy and the Realm as essentially existing in a Cold War without any international treaties limiting strategic weapons (so both are constantly looking to get a new world-shattering upper hand). As you seem to have entirely convincing information to the contrary, I still think that having a fifth column secretly working with celestial exalts is a great plot point for any Exalted, whether it is with the Realm or Lookshy. I assume this is going to be a point upon which we won't agree.

If you don't think that way, I'm not here to stop you. I just think that a place like Lookshy can roll a lot of different ways, especially if you want to add in multiple and competing sources of power in your game. I've said before that IMC (In My Creation) should just be adopted wholesale for Exalted.


Seems like the new Adversaries of the Chosen chapter has a mortal empowered by one of the Deathlords, but not an Abyssal. It's not a god-blooded, but I feel like it's an example of what empowered people who aren't Exalted might look like.

I might take a look at this one. I haven't had much chance to look at most of these after the first one (in a volunteer corps and so get very little money each month), but this sounds as cool as the one where they introduce a baby leviathan.

[SaurOps]

Got that citation (as in which book its from)? Not out of any kind of challenge, but because I just want to more about the lore and would love to hear it. I've been thinking that the kind of internal power struggle of whether or not to tacitly work with celestial exalted would be some primo tier drama for a Lookshy based DB game.

Exalted: the Outcaste for 1e. While there may be some changes, it still seems in line with their 3e presentation.



I can also see any "non-hardliners" (haven't recently read up on every major Gens, but that's probably most of them) ready to at least let celestial exalted go to work without interference assuming that Lookshy maintains its sovereignty. I don't really see their involvement in the River Province as anything other than extended self-interest. Despite what their fancy shogunate honor says, I don't see the river province being any worse off under the Realm overall than what it is now.

Let me reiterate - they have the same basic foundation of beliefs that the Realm was built on. Anathema in this world view are considered dangerously unstable at the absolute best, and widely believed otherwise to simply be body-stealing demon-sorcerers that robbed the power of the Unconquered Sun and Luna with profane rituals at the behest of the Yozis. In other words, a threat on par with Fair Folk. People earnestly believe the tales of Anathema to be perfectly well descriptive of what they can expect out of Solars and Lunars, particularly since the latter are quite put out with the Dragon-Blooded of the Shogunate and the Realm, and go on the warpath time and again to grind down Dragon-Blooded hegemony as supported by First Age artifice. This sort of behavior does not endear Celestials of any kind to even hesitant believers of the Immaculate Philosophy.



Seems to me that a sudden invasion of ghosts and a city-sized monstrosity as well as a whole new brand of Anathema entirely fits with "new, unknown foe".

If the Mask brings Juggernaut too close to the actual city instead of merely just keeping it parked in Thorns, he'd most likely end up getting blown up by a combination of coordinated strike teams and every major Gens having an heirloom daiklave. Going by the original lore, though, Juggernaut is just an incubator for the ghost-eating maggots he planned on using to conquer the kingdoms of his peers, so he doesn't have that much of an interest in expanding that far out into the skinlands.

Another point is that the Abyssal Exalted tend to feed into peoples' beliefs of Solars being corrupt. After all, they came from the place where the Immaculate Dragon of Water sealed the Solars during the Great Uprising. That's not going to do you any favors at the negotiation table, even if you definitely aren't an Abyssal or associated with them in any way.



However, I'm getting the sense that the two of us would get more mileage out of running our Lookshys differently, so if yours is entirely prepared for every circumstance (like being suddenly invaded by previously unknown existential threats) then that seems entirely plausible. I tend to think of Lookshy and the Realm as essentially existing in a Cold War without any international treaties limiting strategic weapons (so both are constantly looking to get a new world-shattering upper hand). As you seem to have entirely convincing information to the contrary, I still think that having a fifth column secretly working with celestial exalts is a great plot point for any Exalted, whether it is with the Realm or Lookshy. I assume this is going to be a point upon which we won't agree.

My general impression of Lookshy allying with Celestials is that it's incredibly out of character for Lookshy, which takes pride in its long-standing position as Shogunate holdouts. Any organization willing to do this within the city is going to be a tiny, tiny minority, much like the agitators that accidentally created the Lookshy Rebel, and likely not in a position of influence. I'd find it difficult to believe that anyone in the General Staff or the named Gentes is particularly interested, but some citizens who feel that they've been slighted might be.

[Braininthejar2]

What are the most important 2ed books to learn about the south?

[jindra34]

Lets clear up the Lookshy-Celestial teamwork thing: Lookshy will murder the crap out of any decisive Anathema they find in their city (and given that they have more working First Age tech than the Realm, that isn't an exageration). What they will do is allow highly skilled '*-bloods' who manage to keep their hands squeaky clean and not raise too many questions of competency beyond age/training and what not into their Academy. At least thats was the early 2E cannon.

[SaurOps]

Lets clear up the Lookshy-Celestial teamwork thing: Lookshy will murder the crap out of any decisive Anathema they find in their city (and given that they have more working First Age tech than the Realm, that isn't an exageration). What they will do is allow highly skilled '*-bloods' who manage to keep their hands squeaky clean and not raise too many questions of competency beyond age/training and what not into their Academy. At least thats was the early 2E cannon.

I wouldn't look to 2e canon for anything on Lookshy, since it went from slobberingly eager to get Solars to wanting to kill them at the drop of a hat. One could argue that it eventually settled back into its mostly 1e mode in Scroll of Exalts, given that Linwei and Fire Orchid were in it, and the latter's status as a Zenith was not presented as something that Lookshy would accept. At present, though, we can probably throw out most of CoTD: Scavenger Lands (not just the Lookshy part, either) when speaking about what lore made it into 3e.

[houlio]

What are the most important 2ed books to learn about the south?

Well, there's the Compass of Terrestrial Directions book for the South. Those have a tendency to go into a huge amount of detail, which can be both helpful and obnoxious when they don't actually tell you what you might need to know. Another very popular book (although it is from 1e) is Scavenger Sons. Scavenger Sons gives a brief and informative overview of every direction as well as the big places in each, and in general I found to be a much better read because of it.

[SaurOps]

Well, there's the Compass of Terrestrial Directions book for the South. Those have a tendency to go into a huge amount of detail, which can be both helpful and obnoxious when they don't actually tell you what you might need to know. Another very popular book (although it is from 1e) is Scavenger Sons. Scavenger Sons gives a brief and informative overview of every direction as well as the big places in each, and in general I found to be a much better read because of it.

Also, sample character concepts to use for people from said location, for each Solar Caste.

[Braininthejar2]

Well, there's the Compass of Terrestrial Directions book for the South. Those have a tendency to go into a huge amount of detail, which can be both helpful and obnoxious when they don't actually tell you what you might need to know. Another very popular book (although it is from 1e) is Scavenger Sons. Scavenger Sons gives a brief and informative overview of every direction as well as the big places in each, and in general I found to be a much better read because of it.


Also, sample character concepts to use for people from said location, for each Solar Caste.

Thank you kindly

[Andreaz]

HA!

thats funny. its not really crusade though.It really is. It really, really is. And its been for a long time.

[Lord Raziere]

It really is. It really, really is. And its been for a long time.

Hey if you think I'm still that guy, after I've moved on and had years to play entirely different games and get over Exalted, and come into this thread dragging that back up thats your fault. I don't need to prove anything to you. I'm done chasing the elusive "intended Exalted setting.". I've played characters that could be multiple Exalted in one, I've seen, played and have fun with many things that I had more consistent fun with than Exalted ever did, from video games to freeform. Its just one setting of many, and if I ever play a game of it with a character I want, thats cool, but I'm not counting on it and am focusing on things that I CAN count on to actually play. Don't sell yourself on a game you'll never actually play. Thats a losing deal.

[Andreaz]

While we have some people versed in exalted 3rd ed here:

What happens if an archer charm designed for hitting multiple targets is employed against a battle group? Or is it not a legal target?

There's nothing specific ruled out.

Some effects, especially those that spread damage around, do full damage to battle groups without them counting against your spread.
For example: if you have to spread initiative between your targets and there's 3 individuals and one group each individual takes Init/3 dice and the battle group takes Init dice.


Effects that deal full damage to everyone don't usually have anything going for them in this sense. Death of Obsidian Butterflies specifically deals more damage to battle groups. Strike of the Brilliant Raptor's hazard, for example, can clearly hit an entire battle group and does nothing in special against them.


It's worth remembering that decisive attacks always deal extra damage against battle groups. And a lot of it, 1 level per 4 dice.

[SaurOps]

Hey if you think I'm still that guy, after I've moved on and had years to play entirely different games and get over Exalted, and come into this thread dragging that back up thats your fault. I don't need to prove anything to you. I'm done chasing the elusive "intended Exalted setting.". I've played characters that could be multiple Exalted in one, I've seen, played and have fun with many things that I had more consistent fun with than Exalted ever did, from video games to freeform. Its just one setting of many, and if I ever play a game of it with a character I want, thats cool, but I'm not counting on it and am focusing on things that I CAN count on to actually play. Don't sell yourself on a game you'll never actually play. Thats a losing deal.

Why respond to bait if you're over it, though? Also, most of us aren't here because they fooled themselves into it. There is no sense of irony in diving into EX3 for me, and probably not for most of the posters on the thread.

[Lord Raziere]

Why respond to bait if you're over it, though? Also, most of us aren't here because they fooled themselves into it. There is no sense of irony in diving into EX3 for me, and probably not for most of the posters on the thread.

See said post you just quoted about not needing to prove self to you about anything. I mostly just responded out of curiosity to see what memetic presence my old "crusades" had. Like what do people remember of me, do they remember "YELLOW IZ BAD, I HATE SOLARS" Raziere, "MOAR MAGITECH" Raziere, "DB's SHOULD BE CELESTIMITALS" Raziere, "RESONANCE IZ BAD" Raziere, I'm not counting lunars everyone has a bone to pick with those, and I don't remember any specific thing that I had with Sidereals or Infernals just that other people had problems with them, so I'm just like "oh boy, lets see what old crazy thing this person thinks of me, this should be amusing." :smallcool:

[Morty]

Nothing says "I'm over this game and I don't care" better than posting in a thread with an inaccurate and unhelpful answer, then responding with an unrelated rant about old grievances when someone corrects you. But people are paying attention to you now, so your goal has certainly been accomplished.

[Andreaz]

Asked the devs yesterday and indeed there isn't any particular rule for aoes against battlegroups.

My suggestion is to stick with the "spread damage aoes do full damage to bgs without counting against the limit" and, if you really want a particular withering aoe to murder the battle group, let it ignore size bonuses to soak. I would do this only to aoes that clearly and undeniably hit everyone in the bg. Decisives already are nasty enough against them with the automatic extra damage.

[Morty]

Yes, battlegroups are generally squishy enough against a dedicated Exalted combatant attacking them that adding more damage feels kind of excessive.

[Lord Raziere]

Nothing says "I'm over this game and I don't care" better than posting in a thread with an inaccurate and unhelpful answer, then responding with an unrelated rant about old grievances when someone corrects you. But people are paying attention to you now, so your goal has certainly been accomplished.

Wow, bitter much? :smalltongue:

This is a game dude, stop taking it so seriously. That was a joke, a jape, lighten up.

[Morty]

Looks like we'll have a Lunar in the next Adversaries of the Righteous. "Subject to change" caveat aside, another peek into what their Charms will look like is long-awaited.

[houlio]

So, it looks like the DB Kickstarter will be starting March 27. Looks like OPP will be using the same style they have for their recent kickstarters, where they release the finished, art free text to backers so they can choose to leave the project if they don’t enjoy the mechanics.

[Rockphed]

So, it looks like the DB Kickstarter will be starting March 27. Looks like OPP will be using the same style they have for their recent kickstarters, where they release the finished, art free text to backers so they can choose to leave the project if they don’t enjoy the mechanics.

Wait, they wrote the mechanics before starting the Kickstarter? What is wrong with these people? Surely they don't know how kickstarter is supposed to work! You are supposed to string hapless rubes along with a promise of what things might look like and then use the kickstarter monies to have a party worthy of heaven and see what sort of chocolate-induced madness results!

[Lord Raziere]

Dragon-Blooded is coming?

:smallsmile:

I'm looking forward to it.

[Morty]

So, it looks like the DB Kickstarter will be starting March 27. Looks like OPP will be using the same style they have for their recent kickstarters, where they release the finished, art free text to backers so they can choose to leave the project if they don’t enjoy the mechanics.

It does seem to be their thing nowadays, and I can't say I'm complaining. I got the Changeling rules this way, and I plan to do the same for Dragon-Blooded.

[Delta]

Definitely much better this way. I don't even care about having the text in advance (I learned that with the new Scion edition, reading RPG rulebooks in pure text form without layout is just not something I enjoy, feels more like studying for a test than fun for me), but the simple fact that the text is already done means that you can trust the book will actually be out sometime soon after the KS, and that's a good thing after everything that went wrong with Ex3 so far. It definitely feels like they learned at least some of the right lessons from that.

[houlio]

As far as the difficulty of reading it goes, we’ll also have the benefit of other kind folks on the internet to dissect and discuss it with.

I’m quite excited for the Kickstarter. DBs have always been more my jam than other exalt types. I think I find the level they play at much more interesting narratively. I love the pseudo L5R setting of Dynasts.

[tonberrian]

I'm happy for DBs insofarasmuch it means new games recruiting, both DBs and Solars to fight them. But I'll probably find something to love in there too.

[SaurOps]

As far as the difficulty of reading it goes, we’ll also have the benefit of other kind folks on the internet to dissect and discuss it with.

I’m quite excited for the Kickstarter. DBs have always been more my jam than other exalt types. I think I find the level they play at much more interesting narratively. I love the pseudo L5R setting of Dynasts.

I wouldn't really relate anything in the Realm to anything in L5R, even with the pseudo prefix. If you're looking for samurai, those are more in Lookshy's bag, but handled in no way, shape, or form like in L5R. The political landscape is also rather different, since the Realm is looking to spread out and roll over everything so that it pays for a bunch of new palaces, rather than keeping to their island and eschewing the outside world as being a kind of taint on their society (they do think that everyone else is inferior, but their actions based on this assumption are worlds away).

[houlio]

I wouldn't really relate anything in the Realm to anything in L5R, even with the pseudo prefix. If you're looking for samurai, those are more in Lookshy's bag, but handled in no way, shape, or form like in L5R. The political landscape is also rather different, since the Realm is looking to spread out and roll over everything so that it pays for a bunch of new palaces, rather than keeping to their island and eschewing the outside world as being a kind of taint on their society (they do think that everyone else is inferior, but their actions based on this assumption are worlds away).

Perhaps I should have clarified further. I see parallels between Dynastic Great Houses and L5R Clans, and I see both as ripe with potential for conflicting duties between self, family and the empire as a whole. The Emerald Empire and the Realm don’t really share other characteristics besides maybe both being settings where the default assumption is that you play as the upper crust of society.

Of course, if there is some canon quote from a book I don’t know about which proves my assumption about the setting is totally inaccurate, then just let me know :p

[Morty]

The Kickstarter's here, and it's almost funded two hours after start. I've pledged myself, and I'm very pleased with the first manuscript preview. It flows well, sells the idea of playing a Dragon-Blooded and gives some proper respect to DBs outside the Realm. I still prefer the Solar themes of unbridled human excellence, but Dragon-Blooded do offer a somewhat less bonkers power level.

[tonberrian]

Backed as well. Got me the options for the Realm and Bonus PDF.

[Kobold-Bard]

I'm told they've gotten a lot better since the silly Ex3 core kickstarter. We shall see.

[SaurOps]

I'm told they've gotten a lot better since the silly Ex3 core kickstarter. We shall see.

Well, part of that was making everything a great deal more transparent, so seeing should be fairly easy. (^VVVVVV^)

[Delta]

Well, part of that was making everything a great deal more transparent, so seeing should be fairly easy. (^VVVVVV^)

I feel like they've always been rather on the transparent side of things for a long time now, but it's not that big a big help to know how much is done if they still take forever to get things done.

The biggest improvement now in my opinion is not going on Kickstarter until the text of the book is actually done so all there's left to do is layout, art and last minute adjustments.

I really like what I've seen so far, especially since they actually took the time to consider what making the Realm a matriarchy could actually plausibly look like (compared to before, where it says at some point in the front "Yeah, it's a matriarchy" and then pretty much ignoring it from that point on) is really interesting to me and gives it a more unique touch, I really went to get my hands on the Realm book now.

Other than that, the thing I'm mostly interested in seeing is if they manage to step up the frequency of coming releases. Up until now, they've been saddled with a lot of stuff left over by the old regime, so to speak, I can't really hold how long Arms and DB have taken against Eric and Bob. From now on, it's all on them.

[Morty]

We haven't seen any mechanics yet, but apparently the Immaculate Dragon Styles will have neither the Terrestrial nor the Mastery keywords, and will benefit from the elemental auras Dragon-Blooded naturally have. Seems like it's a pretty elegant way of ensuring they uniquely benefit them.

[Rockphed]

I feel like they've always been rather on the transparent side of things for a long time now, but it's not that big a big help to know how much is done if they still take forever to get things done.

The biggest improvement now in my opinion is not going on Kickstarter until the text of the book is actually done so all there's left to do is layout, art and last minute adjustments.

I really like what I've seen so far, especially since they actually took the time to consider what making the Realm a matriarchy could actually plausibly look like (compared to before, where it says at some point in the front "Yeah, it's a matriarchy" and then pretty much ignoring it from that point on) is really interesting to me and gives it a more unique touch, I really went to get my hands on the Realm book now.

Other than that, the thing I'm mostly interested in seeing is if they manage to step up the frequency of coming releases. Up until now, they've been saddled with a lot of stuff left over by the old regime, so to speak, I can't really hold how long Arms and DB have taken against Eric and Bob. From now on, it's all on them.

I know I snarked about it, but I agree that waiting to Kickstart something until you have done most of the work is the better way to go. Kickstarting a CD after you have songs written and have a studio to record in picked out massively increases the likelyhood that you are going to actually publish the CD. Books and games that are already 90% done are so much less likely to suffer critical existence failure. Having the text in a state where it can be shown to backers before the kickstarter ends not only means we only have to wait for layout, art, and the odd "we offered somebody the chance to add a character/charm to the book as a reward for x level of contribution".


We haven't seen any mechanics yet, but apparently the Immaculate Dragon Styles will have neither the Terrestrial nor the Mastery keywords, and will benefit from the elemental auras Dragon-Blooded naturally have. Seems like it's a pretty elegant way of ensuring they uniquely benefit them.

So at once Dragon-blooded aren't the only ones who can use Immaculate Dragon Styles, but they do gain an advantage for using one that meshes with their elemental aura? That is a solid way to encourage dragon-blooded to learn and use immaculate styles

[Morty]

That seems to be the intent. And the lack of the two keywords means a Celestial Exalt, even a Solar, won't have as much of an advantage when using this style as they normally would.

[Andreaz]

With the second week comes the second manuscript, detailing primarily life in the dynasty and in lookshy, then getting to outcastes. Great stuff all around!

[houlio]

With the second week comes the second manuscript, detailing primarily life in the dynasty and in lookshy, then getting to outcastes. Great stuff all around!

Don't forget secondary schools, because playing magical Exalted high school seems to take up a disproportionate amount of interest in DB games (not that anything is wrong with that, I'd love a Bloodborne/Harry Potter Heptagram game). While the Heptagram is still a magic school (being automatically cool) and the House of Bells is still DB ROTC, the Cloister of Wisdom and The Spiral Academy have also gotten a few neat bits of fluff added to them beyond being super karate and super finishing school respectively.

The Cloister of Wisdom doesn't so much churn out new DB monks (less than half take the oaths to join the Immaculate Order), but it does make use of all the secular graduates who "frequently remain sympathetic to the Order's aims". It makes the Immaculate Order an important faction for the Great Houses to court for the upcoming civil war.

The Spiral Academy now seems like a combination of graduate school and Bohemian Grove. Students have tons of work and usually end up in government ministerial or intelligence work, and students are also involved in a lot of secret societies dedicated to a wide range of activities from mutual prosperity to uncovering corrupt judicial officials.

There wasn't really info on The Palace of the Tamed Storm or The House of Ancient Stone, but there were both mentioned so they still seem to be canon. I imagine all the schools are going to get more detailed write-ups in The Realm.

[Delta]

I really, really like what I'm seeing about the new Realm and especially the Great Houses, so many Exalted games I'd love to run one day... *sighs*

[AmberVael]

Has anyone purchased one or more of the Adversaries of the Righteous booklets? Anyone have a favorite? I'm probably going to pick one or two of them up and need to decide which to get.

[Lord Raziere]

So I've been on a Sidereal and Yu-Shan kick lately with DB kickstarter about, I was reading CoCD: Yu-Shan and came to the thing about Masque of Repose and how he has a bunch of children that oddly exhibit and odd amount of his power from his by-blows, one of whom had an Exaltation according to the text, but not saying whom, and that this was one of the ones he knows about.

Now go over to the Sidereal book, and looking into the sidebar "Sometimes Things Go Tight". Black Ice Shadow, the signature Chosen of Endings, was one of the Sidereals in the second age that, got discovered early so that he can be taught properly, despite being Ghost-blooded.

Now Masque Of Repose is both the God of funereal arrangements, and the city god of Sijan, and receives both prayers from ancestor cults and from reincarnation focused religions. what if, Black Ice Shadow isn't actually a Ghost-Blooded? What if the reason his training to be a Sidereal went so right, is because Masque of Repose helped calculate the destiny, figured out that his son would be the next Chosen of Endings after last one died, and made it so that he would would be easily discovered in the care of a ghost-blooded parent, to make people think he was, so that Masque of Repose wasn't focused on, because his entire deal is that its illegal for him to hold two titles at once, so he needs people kept off from focusing on that as much as possible?

this adds an extra layer of interesting, as its stated that Black Ice Shadow was taught by gods of death and decay his entire life in preparation for his role, and now serves as assistant to Wayang whom Masque of Repose also serves directly under. So, in a roundabout way, Black Ice Shadow could've been taught and raised by his actual father all along without anyone but Masque of Repose knowing. After all, the difference between a ghost-blooded and a god-blooded of a funereal deity isn't all that much isn't it? Especially when they receive the same kinds of prayers.

Thats my new headcanon about Black Ice Shadow.

[SaurOps]

So I've been on a Sidereal and Yu-Shan kick lately with DB kickstarter about, I was reading CoCD: Yu-Shan and came to the thing about Masque of Repose and how he has a bunch of children that oddly exhibit and odd amount of his power from his by-blows, one of whom had an Exaltation according to the text, but not saying whom, and that this was one of the ones he knows about.

Now go over to the Sidereal book, and looking into the sidebar "Sometimes Things Go Tight". Black Ice Shadow, the signature Chosen of Endings, was one of the Sidereals in the second age that, got discovered early so that he can be taught properly, despite being Ghost-blooded.

Which is technically not possible under 2e, given the god-blooded rules in Scroll of Heroes that forbade God-Blooded Exalted. That edition tied itself up into knots over things that largely didn't matter, but then also kept Eclipses being able to break the game by learning the Charms of other Exalted, as well as ridiculously overpowered Terrestrial Martial Arts styles and other issues.



Now Masque Of Repose is both the God of funereal arrangements, and the city god of Sijan, and receives both prayers from ancestor cults and from reincarnation focused religions. what if, Black Ice Shadow isn't actually a Ghost-Blooded? What if the reason his training to be a Sidereal went so right, is because Masque of Repose helped calculate the destiny, figured out that his son would be the next Chosen of Endings after last one died, and made it so that he would would be easily discovered in the care of a ghost-blooded parent, to make people think he was, so that Masque of Repose wasn't focused on, because his entire deal is that its illegal for him to hold two titles at once, so he needs people kept off from focusing on that as much as possible?

this adds an extra layer of interesting, as its stated that Black Ice Shadow was taught by gods of death and decay his entire life in preparation for his role, and now serves as assistant to Wayang whom Masque of Repose also serves directly under. So, in a roundabout way, Black Ice Shadow could've been taught and raised by his actual father all along without anyone but Masque of Repose knowing. After all, the difference between a ghost-blooded and a god-blooded of a funereal deity isn't all that much isn't it? Especially when they receive the same kinds of prayers.

Thats my new headcanon about Black Ice Shadow.

Well, as far as 2e is concerned, headcanon is the only canon. It's technically going against SoH either way, but SoH only has two chapters worth reading, the first and last.

[Morty]

Has anyone purchased one or more of the Adversaries of the Righteous booklets? Anyone have a favorite? I'm probably going to pick one or two of them up and need to decide which to get.

I got the Eska of Seven Blades one and the Ashana Ikatu one and they're pretty good. Eska is another real look at 3E Lunars, and Ashana is an example of a divinely-empowered mortal martial artist. She'd probably crumble against any Exalted opposition, but it's good to see how this kind of thing might work. There was also someone blessed by the Deathlords without beign an actual Abyssal, but I haven't got that one.

[Kobold-Bard]

For those waiting to back the kickstarter, we now have char-gen rules and DB charms for Archery - Investigation.

[Lord Raziere]

already have, but now that I know that the charms are coming in...YAAAAAAAAY!!! I timed that backing perfectly.

Edit:
Lets see, I'm liking a lot of how these are designed...

Flowing Authority Insinuation:
oh hello Sidereal charm, what are you doing here?

Fortune From Flotsam Ingenuity:
Oh hello Solar charm, what are you doing here?

ERUPTIIING FURY BARRAAAAAAAAGE!!!!!! feels like some sort of 2-d fighter game finishing move. wonder what the dragon styles are going to be like....

Edit:
the charms are definitely cool, but I see why a Dragon-Blooded would try to learn something like Sorcery. these charms do not give as much benefit as Solar charms while the Sorcerous benefits are the same. So in some ways its more worth it to play a Dragon-blooded Sorcerer than a Solar one, because while you'll never reach higher, you get the most incentive to get all the spells you can from the Terrestrial Circle, because a single spell gives you power equal to power a Solar sorcerer gets until they start going into higher circles, and you don't have a Supernal to invest in. meaning unlike Solars, a Dragon-Blooded is making a good investment by learning Sorcery, but for different reasons than Solars. A Solar becomes a sorcerer because they can get to the highest circle. a Dragon-blooded becomes a sorcerer because even terrestrial Sorcery is powerful enough to help them in ways their own charms can't.

Edit:
I'm looking back upon the martial arts in the corebook, DB's starting at Essence 2 and most of the martial art charms being Essence 2 make a lot of sense: a Dragon-Blooded can actually learn a good amount of any given martial art style, with only some of the charms being unable to be learned until Essence 3, and could possibly learn all the charms available to them for two different styles. all in all, Dragon-Blooded are indeed encouraged for more horizontal progression than vertical like with Solars.

[lightningcat]

Is it mentioned anywhere (1e, 2e, or 3e) that Five Days Darkness is a creature of darkness? If so, where? I don't remember reading that, although I have only read 2e material, but it gets mentioned by people online. Creature of darkness is reserved for the enemies of UC, and 5DD doesn't really fit that category to me. Anymore then Night Caste Solars would be creatures of darkness.

[Kobold-Bard]

Is it mentioned anywhere (1e, 2e, or 3e) that Five Days Darkness is a creature of darkness? If so, where? I don't remember reading that, although I have only read 2e material, but it gets mentioned by people online. Creature of darkness is reserved for the enemies of UC, and 5DD doesn't really fit that category to me. Anymore then Night Caste Solars would be creatures of darkness.

In 2e he is THE creature of darkness; not because he's on Sol's naughty list, but just because it's his divine nature as Sol's shadow to be in opposition to the sun. His writeup is in Compass: Scavenger Lands.

[AmberVael]

I got the Eska of Seven Blades one and the Ashana Ikatu one and they're pretty good. Eska is another real look at 3E Lunars, and Ashana is an example of a divinely-empowered mortal martial artist. She'd probably crumble against any Exalted opposition, but it's good to see how this kind of thing might work. There was also someone blessed by the Deathlords without beign an actual Abyssal, but I haven't got that one.

Thanks for the suggestions! I decided to get Eska.

[lightningcat]

In 2e he is THE creature of darkness; not because he's on Sol's naughty list, but just because it's his divine nature as Sol's shadow to be in opposition to the sun. His writeup is in Compass: Scavenger Lands.

Thank you. While not the version that I will be using in my next game, it is nice to actually know where that informarion is.

[Lord Raziere]

I think I might have an idea for what the Lunar foil Exalted might be, because I remember the devs saying there will be a Lunar foil:

Arrancar, except with actual animals. Bestial Exalted who are uplifted and their original forms seal into moonsilver weapons they carry around so that they look human, with their story and themes being newly uplifted beasts discovering what civilization and sapience is and where they fit into it, with a duty to fight against the threats of Creation like Raksha. and that they're basically terrestrial level exalts much like the Liminals. and that their charms revolve physical beast transformations.

[SaurOps]

I think I might have an idea for what the Lunar foil Exalted might be, because I remember the devs saying there will be a Lunar foil:

Arrancar, except with actual animals. Bestial Exalted who are uplifted and their original forms seal into moonsilver weapons they carry around so that they look human, with their story and themes being newly uplifted beasts discovering what civilization and sapience is and where they fit into it, with a duty to fight against the threats of Creation like Raksha. and that they're basically terrestrial level exalts much like the Liminals. and that their charms revolve physical beast transformations.

Assuming that you're talking about the official stuff, nope. Both optional Lunar foils are immediately to the right of Lissome Avid Engineer, and they are respectively the Hearteaters, which are some tainted or corrupted form of a previously "pure" form of (apocryphal, not yet named) Exalted from the Primordial War, and the Umbral Exalted, who are "at war with each other". We'll get more details in the Exigent hardback, apparently.

Also, no one needs to specifically deal with fae and other Wyld horrors, because everyone has to in general.

[Lord Raziere]

Assuming that you're talking about the official stuff, nope. Both optional Lunar foils are immediately to the right of Lissome Avid Engineer, and they are respectively the Hearteaters, which are some tainted or corrupted form of a previously "pure" form of (apocryphal, not yet named) Exalted from the Primordial War, and the Umbral Exalted, who are "at war with each other". We'll get more details in the Exigent hardback, apparently.

Also, no one needs to specifically deal with fae and other Wyld horrors, because everyone has to in general.

Ah. Hm. nevermind then.

man, so many cool potential Exalts, I just wish I could hear more of them faster. the DB kickstarter has made me want to play Exalted again and its like an itch I can't scratch.

[Kobold-Bard]

And we have the rest of the charms. DBs seem fun this edition.

[Lord Raziere]

I like how one of the larceny charms expands the DB character concepts by so much, simply because its a charm to become Robin Hood. So while Dynast is a big concept, the outcastes are not screwed over and can be whatever folk hero they want, and now I am just picturing the different little Outcaste DB's across Creation being wandering ronin, or flame-piece slingers, or samurai/knights riding on horses, some are robin hoods, others are probably pirates out west, and so on, and while Solars can be all those things as well, they tend to become more than that simply because of their overwhelming awesome, while with a DB Outcaste your more likely to stay the wandering folk hero and be able to say "I was just passing through."

Edit: can't wait for next week so that Sorcery and Martial Arts come out and finally we'll have a completely DB book, even if its not finished in the art department, I don't care, I hope that I can get to playing a Dragon-Blooded soon. though I do have this Twilight concept I want to play now....

[Tyrrell]

The last of the previews is out and the immaculate dragon styles are pretty butch, as is Mantis style.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah, the Immaculate Styles are pretty cool. The downside however of them is not how Solars wield them though, its Sidereals. A Solar could learn an entire style through Supernal and DB's can use the charms better with Aura, but Sidereals lose out the most because they don't have either. Even though they're the only other Exalt that canonically can teach and therefore use these styles. Which sucks for a new Sidereal learning under a Bronze Faction Sifu, because they'd be learning a style mostly to teach to future DB's but would be not as good of an idea to use themselves, when they could be learning something better to fight with. when Sidereals only numbering 100 and thus having as versatile a tool kit as possible is needed to do your job.

Unless Sidereals get some special thing with martial arts when their splatbook comes? or maybe dragon styles are something they learn later after getting some Violet Biers of Sorrows training for self-defense, but its still not as a good idea as simply learning a style that'd benefit yourself, after all this many DB's around, you'd think DB's who can teach it would be self-sustaining by now. I just find it weird that the other half of the two splats who invented the Immaculate styles arguably benefit the least from using it themselves, when they're probably the only other Exalt who knows them.

[SaurOps]

Yeah, the Immaculate Styles are pretty cool. The downside however of them is not how Solars wield them though, its Sidereals. A Solar could learn an entire style through Supernal and DB's can use the charms better with Aura, but Sidereals lose out the most because they don't have either. Even though they're the only other Exalt that canonically can teach and therefore use these styles. Which sucks for a new Sidereal learning under a Bronze Faction Sifu, because they'd be learning a style mostly to teach to future DB's but would be not as good of an idea to use themselves, when they could be learning something better to fight with. when Sidereals only numbering 100 and thus having as versatile a tool kit as possible is needed to do your job.

Unless Sidereals get some special thing with martial arts when their splatbook comes? or maybe dragon styles are something they learn later after getting some Violet Biers of Sorrows training for self-defense, but its still not as a good idea as simply learning a style that'd benefit yourself, after all this many DB's around, you'd think DB's who can teach it would be self-sustaining by now. I just find it weird that the other half of the two splats who invented the Immaculate styles arguably benefit the least from using it themselves, when they're probably the only other Exalt who knows them.

I think it may be a bit too early to start worrying about the Sidereals, seeing as how Lunars is only now just at the first draft stage.

[Lord Raziere]

I think it may be a bit too early to start worrying about the Sidereals, seeing as how Lunars is only now just at the first draft stage.

Not worried about Sidereals in general. just commenting on specific thing I find strange not worrisome commentary on potential splat in general, honestly with the current design team and how they've handled Dragon-Blooded, I'm not worried about Sidereals or Alchemicals at all, as like Solars and Dragon-Blooded they are pretty conceptually solid from edition to edition despite niggling details, while they seem to have a good idea of where to go with Abyssals and Infernals and I am sure they will be fine as long they stick with the concepts they have in mind for them. all those splats? they'll in all likelihood be fine when they get around to them.

Lunars are indeed the one to worry about out of all the old splats. they got shafted in both editions prior and were never conceptually solid or able to stand on their own two feet. Solars and DBs are the bedrock and therefore are the easiest two Exalts to design, but Lunars need someone to sell them like they've never been sold on before. I think the current design team based on what we've seen so far is up to it, but its a challenge considering what they have to work with.

the splat I'd worry about among the new splats would be Exigents, but thats mostly because two words: Custom Charms. the fluff is good, but the mechanical challenge of trying design create-your-own-exalt is something to watch out for.

[tonberrian]

We already know that 1. Sidereals can get Mastery effects in martial arts, through some sort of shenanigans, and 2. they're the only ones who can learn Sidereal Martial Arts without a teacher. Honestly they don't need anything else to be fine with Martial Arts.

[Lord Raziere]

We already know that 1. Sidereals can get Mastery effects in martial arts, through some sort of shenanigans, and 2. they're the only ones who can learn Sidereal Martial Arts without a teacher. Honestly they don't need anything else to be fine with Martial Arts.

Again, I wasn't talking about Sidereal martial arts in general. :smallconfused: I was talking about their specific deal with Immaculate Martial Arts. I'm not seeing where you got this from.

[Kobold-Bard]

Again, I wasn't talking about Sidereal martial arts in general. :smallconfused: I was talking about their specific deal with Immaculate Martial Arts. I'm not seeing where you got this from.

They have their own method for accessing Mastery effects. I assumed they will have a similar method for accessing Aura effects (maybe whilst under a Destiny), but admittedly it's not mentioned in the previews.

[Kobold-Bard]

As Dragon-Blooded had "what fire has wrought", the tagline for Lunars will be "fangs at the gate".

[tonberrian]

Though I am somewhat disappointed we didn't get the two warstriders, we got everything else I cared about, so yay Dragonblooded!

[Lord Raziere]

I'm happy with this book to. it actually makes me like both Dragon-Blooded and Solars more because I better understand their places and roles in a way that 2e did not convey. like sure I have Dragon-Blooded concepts but I also have Solar concepts that I want to play now, and in my head I'd build a Dragon-Blooded and a Solar very differently in terms of charms and things I want to pursue with them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm happy with this book to. it actually makes me like both Dragon-Blooded and Solars more because I better understand their places and roles in a way that 2e did not convey. like sure I have Dragon-Blooded concepts but I also have Solar concepts that I want to play now, and in my head I'd build a Dragon-Blooded and a Solar very differently in terms of charms and things I want to pursue with them.
Is it too late to get in on the previews?

[Lord Raziere]

Is it too late to get in on the previews?

The kickstarter is over.....so yes, unfortunately. I've got the backer-only manuscript, but the actual pdf according to the kickstarter itself is estimated to not come until Feb 2019.

[SaurOps]

The kickstarter is over.....so yes, unfortunately. I've got the backer-only manuscript, but the actual pdf according to the kickstarter itself is estimated to not come until Feb 2019.

That's a bit of an "everything goes wrong" estimate, so it could be notably sooner. As the book is already in layout, it could be much sooner, in fact, but Onyx Path doesn't want another KS like the EX3 KS.

[Lord Raziere]

That's a bit of an "everything goes wrong" estimate, so it could be notably sooner. As the book is already in layout, it could be much sooner, in fact, but Onyx Path doesn't want another KS like the EX3 KS.

Yeah, thats why I said that. to make sure we expect the worst and not get excited. hopefully its sooner yes, but its better to expect it to take long and forget about a bit so that you can relax, so that when it does happen you can be pleasantly surprised rather than angry if it was an earlier date that wasn't met.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The kickstarter is over.....so yes, unfortunately. I've got the backer-only manuscript, but the actual pdf according to the kickstarter itself is estimated to not come until Feb 2019.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/cf/cfb655ceff21b2b4b60234c5aaf1f0b8823fdaced2f0190c43 e1e966c152d426.jpg

[Kobold-Bard]

I didn't know about the Antagonist PDFs. Not only did they make the Mouse of the Sun statblock from the 3e leak canon and official (yay glowing mouse familiar), but there's some neat Eclipse-keyword charms in there too. Plus a great spell that lets you eat books to gain the knowledge within.

Speaking of spells, some of the ones in the Dragonblooded book are maddeningly unbalanced.

[lightningcat]

I have only made it through the opening fiction, but so far I am not unhappy. Plus a story staring the Scarlet Empress (I am fairly sure).

[Andreaz]

Speaking of spells, some of the ones in the Dragonblooded book are maddeningly unbalanced.

I am listening.

[tonberrian]

Anyone interested in a 3e Solars game? Trying to draw interest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?558278-Solar-Exalted-3E-Looking-for-Interest).

And since it would be self-serving to only link my thread, there's a 3e Sidereal game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557635-EX3-Looking-for-ST-and-Players-for-a-Sidereal-Game) and an 2e Evil Infernals game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557605-Exalted-2-Evil-Infernals) looking for players and storytellers as well.

[Beans]

I am listening.
As am I. I didn't notice anything seeming crazy imbalanced, but to be fair, I also didn't dig too deeply into them yet.


Anyone interested in a 3e Solars game? Trying to draw interest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?558278-Solar-Exalted-3E-Looking-for-Interest).

And since it would be self-serving to only link my thread, there's a 3e Sidereal game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557635-EX3-Looking-for-ST-and-Players-for-a-Sidereal-Game) and an 2e Evil Infernals game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557605-Exalted-2-Evil-Infernals) looking for players and storytellers as well.
Thank y'all~

[Andreaz]

As am I. I didn't notice anything seeming crazy imbalanced, but to be fair, I also didn't dig too deeply into them yet. I know a lot of people overreacted to the Maw because it's aggravated damage and battlegroups can do jack about it... But it doesn't do all that much damage. Compare to Death of Obsidian Butterflies:

aoe: pi/2 arc into medium range vs wide pipe-line into medium range.
hit: attribute + ability unblockable (and undodgeable vs bgs) vs attribute+ability undodgeable
damage: threshold success + attribute - attribute vs threshold success + attribute (+ability against bgs).
damage type: aggravated vs lethal
aftereffect: water bottle vs negligible hazard.

Control effect: special creepy melee weapon vs bigger attack pool & stunt fodder

sorta larger aoe, but without aerial targets. Slightly lesser damage, but aggravated. Aggravated is nastier to heal, but kills just the same against anything that isn't a regenerator.

[HighPriest]

The spell I suspect is most likely to make the biggest impact on balance is Virtuous Guardian of Flame. Admittedly, destroying it for a day isn't the hardest thing in the world, but until someone does that, it can make the caster pretty much untouchable by conventional attacks. Up to +6 on both DVs from a non-Charm source (provided by another "entity" in this case) is pretty huge, and even a character with sorcery as a secondary focus is likely to end up with at least +4 or so.

[Morty]

I've had two sessions of an actual Exalted game, finally. A Dragon-Blooded one. Granted, both of them were kind of cut short, but still. In the first game, the rest of the party duked it out with a Night Caste Solar... and my character wasn't there for it. They killed her, though. And now I've got some XP and so many things I could spend it on. I'm running a Wood Aspect outcaste monster-hunter, focusing on Golden Janissary, Survival and Occult.

I've also got an artifact spear without any actual Evocations. Nothing in Arms of the Chosen or What Fire Has Wrought quite fits.

[Lord Raziere]

then your doing better than the game I'm finally in, I'm playing a Twilight sorcerer that I foolishly overspecialized (8 spells, 4 occult charms, 4 lore charms, no combat charms) and got nearly killed in the first combat encounter. a character that seems to need constant revising every time something comes up to make it better from how badly designed they started out as. uuuuugh. I mean sure, she got an awesome moment from finding a way to save her neomah mother from another demon threatening her to send back to Malfeas unless she handed over this artifact she has, which she foiled by binding her mother as a familiar, but she got nearly killed in the process, and this was just the flashback of how the Circle met....

[Andreaz]

The spell I suspect is most likely to make the biggest impact on balance is Virtuous Guardian of Flame. Admittedly, destroying it for a day isn't the hardest thing in the world, but until someone does that, it can make the caster pretty much untouchable by conventional attacks. Up to +6 on both DVs from a non-Charm source (provided by another "entity" in this case) is pretty huge, and even a character with sorcery as a secondary focus is likely to end up with at least +4 or so.

Well, you have to compare it to something else, not just the void.
A bodyguard can do that for you. A fellow circlemate can do so even more strongly. A sorcerer can summon a demon to do that. An occultist can induct a spirit into that.

It's strong, we all agree. "overpowered" doesn't make much sense.

[Andreaz]

I've had two sessions of an actual Exalted game, finally. A Dragon-Blooded one. Granted, both of them were kind of cut short, but still. In the first game, the rest of the party duked it out with a Night Caste Solar... and my character wasn't there for it. They killed her, though. And now I've got some XP and so many things I could spend it on. I'm running a Wood Aspect outcaste monster-hunter, focusing on Golden Janissary, Survival and Occult.

I've also got an artifact spear without any actual Evocations. Nothing in Arms of the Chosen or What Fire Has Wrought quite fits.

Nice.

What is the spear made of? What is its level? Is there any story attached to it?

[Beans]

I'm hoping for the eventual beginning of a Dragonblooded game, and currently am trying to pull down players and an ST for an Underworld/shadowland game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559218-EX3-Need-ST-and-Players-for-Underworld-Abyssals-Homebrew-Game) using my intensely-PEACH Abyssal homebrew (shameless plug, etc).

Also, re:Evocations... I kind of haven't really done much with them outside of my own attempts to make artifacts. I don't think I've ever gone for a prewritten artifact for its Evocations, nor when I make up artifacts for my characters do I tend to think much besides the attunement bonus. Part of it is probably that I've never really done a combat-focused character and many Evocations tend to be combat-focused, especially given they're usually from weapons or armor.

[HighPriest]

Well, you have to compare it to something else, not just the void.
A bodyguard can do that for you. A fellow circlemate can do so even more strongly. A sorcerer can summon a demon to do that. An occultist can induct a spirit into that.

It's strong, we all agree. "overpowered" doesn't make much sense.

Oh, I agree. There are plenty of other ways to get a similar bonus, but there aren't many that are as low-upkeep as a 2 WP spell that lasts a full day, and while walking around with a lit lantern in bright daylight might seem odd, it's definitely less immediately obvious than being followed around by a blood ape or what have you. I'm not necessarily arguing that it's too powerful for Terrestrial level, just that it is probably the best of the new bunch in my opinion, at least in terms of combat impact. Definitely better than the two decisive attack spells. Both look like reasonable substitutes for Obsidian Butterflies, but I'd imagine most sorcerers won't need more than one of the three.

[Morty]

Nice.

What is the spear made of? What is its level? Is there any story attached to it?

I'm keeping it a 3-dot green jade longfang until I figure it out. It's an heirloom from the clan of monster-hunters the character belongs to. It's got enough of the Dragons' blood to produce Exalted from time to time.

There's a moonsilver direlance in Arms of the Chosen that fits a hunter well, but a direlance wouldn't work with Golden Jansisary or White Reaper. But I suppose I could make it a longfang instead without much of a fuss? And having a moonsilver artifact might have been the reason the clan was attacked by a Lunar.

[Andreaz]

I'm keeping it a 3-dot green jade longfang until I figure it out. It's an heirloom from the clan of monster-hunters the character belongs to. It's got enough of the Dragons' blood to produce Exalted from time to time.

There's a moonsilver direlance in Arms of the Chosen that fits a hunter well, but a direlance wouldn't work with Golden Jansisary or White Reaper. But I suppose I could make it a longfang instead without much of a fuss? And having a moonsilver artifact might have been the reason the clan was attacked by a Lunar.

Galaech-ma, right? It's a good baseline. You can build off hitting particular types of enemies (Zelator is another good one for that), or a stalk/kill dynamic. Or maybe even building up power against an enemy as you hit it.

[Morty]

I'm away from my book right now, but I think so. I don't exactly feel confident creating my own evocations, so I might just ask the ST if taking the artifact and just changing its size would be alright.

[Beans]

It is indeed the Tusk of Gaelech-Ma, and it lets you pick someone as your hunted quarry and get a little bonus against him even before Evocations.
I figure asking your ST if you can just have it be a longfang is a pretty reasonable request, since it doesn't seem to me like it would mess up the theming or be mechanically unbalanced.