Stealthing around a Sniffer

[strangebloke]

Cloak of Elvenkind give you advantage on stealth checks made to hide by camouflaging you, and opponents have disadvantage on perception checks to see you.

Werewolves have advantage on perception checks to smell you.

Both of these effects are significant because they call out the method of perceiving and what you are trying to hide with your stealth check. There's also boots of elvenkind which do the same thing for 'moving silently.'

Let's say you have a rogue with a Cloak of Elvenkind hiding from a werewolf. How does this work out?

Do you demand separate stealth checks for hiding scent/hiding from vision/hiding from hearing? Do you give both the werewolf and the hiding person advantage? Does the hiding person only get advantage on the check to hide from sight?

The text of Cloak of Elvenkind grants you advantage on 'all stealth checks made to hide' but says that this is due to visual camouflage, so its a little nonsensical. I'm also unsure of whether or not to fuse different sensory skill checks. Audible/Visible/Scent-based checks all being seperate is a massivenerf to stealth as a skill. Basically it'd be super disadvantage and you would be super likely to fail to hide against anyone. The way the text of the werewolf is written, any creature can make a scent-based perception check, which seems wrong unless we have someone with a very strong nose, or someone that is very smelly.

Came up in my campaign a while ago.

[Mikal]

Simple.
Cloak works on sight. Werewolf doesn't.
Werewolf gets his advantage on perception checks that rely on smell.

[strangebloke]

Simple.
Cloak works on sight. Werewolf doesn't.
Werewolf gets his advantage

Cloak says it works on all stealth checks made to hide. Does the hiding person get advantage?

Does the werewolf get three checks to find the person who's hiding? Sight/hearing/smell? Does he only get a smell check if the guy has a distinctive smell? Does he only get a hearing check if the guy is moving or doing something that makes sound?

[Unoriginal]

Cloak says it works on all stealth checks made to hide. Does the hiding person get advantage??

Yes. But Werewolf get advantage too, unless Cloak Man is somehow covering his scent.



Does the werewolf get three checks to find the person who's hiding? Sight/hearing/smell? Does he only get a smell check if the guy has a distinctive smell?

No, he get one check that represent all of his perceptions methods. It's just that if one perception method doesn't work, it's not taken into account, and if one of the senses is particularly relevant, it work better.

For exemple, if Cloack Man was under a Silence spell, Werewolf couldn't hear him.




Does he only get a hearing check if the guy is moving or doing something that makes sound?

If Cloack Man is doing something that make sounds, the hiding fail.

If he's just moving silently, and has already succeeded his stealth check, then the Werewold don't get more checks (unless the situation changes).

[strangebloke]

No, he get one check that represent all of his perceptions methods. It's just that if one perception method doesn't work, it's not taken into account, and if one of the senses is particularly relevant, it work better.

For exemple, if Cloack Man was under a Silence spell, Werewolf couldn't hear him.


Ok.

But using this logic, since most humanoids can smell, and you're using the best perception ability available, the ability of boots of elvenkind to impose disadvantage on hearing and the ability of the cloak of elvenkind to impose disadvantage on seeing are completely useless unless you are dealing with someone who can't smell.

Which seems really stupid.



If Cloack Man is doing something that make sounds, the hiding fail.

If he's just moving silently, and has already succeeded his stealth check, then the Werewold don't get more checks (unless the situation changes).
what I should have said is:

'does he only get to use that perceptive ability if the character is doing something that could make sound?'

And the same thing for scent.

[mephnick]

Wolf gets a perception check with advantage and you get a stealth check with advantage. Multiple advantages on opposing sides do not cancel anything out.

If you want to take the text literally. I don't think anyone would fault you for denying the advantage against a scent based opposed check, though as a DM ruling.

[Unoriginal]

Ok.

But using this logic, since most humanoids can smell, and you're using the best perception ability available, the ability of boots of elvenkind to impose disadvantage on hearing and the ability of the cloak of elvenkind to impose disadvantage on seeing are completely useless unless you are dealing with someone who can't smell.

Which seems really stupid.

No.

Most humanoids are unable to distinguish someone's presence with the smell alone.

Wind or other smells usually mask your own scent, unless you're being really obvious, and the Stealth check is to hide the obvious traces of your presence (not you must be unseen to try to hide).

Creatures with a good sense of smell, like dogs, are obviously harder to hide form.

Of course, if you've got half a bottle of perfume poured on your head, an human is going to smell you even if you wear boots and cape of Elvenkind.



If you want to take the text literally. I don't think anyone would fault you for denying the advantage against a scent based opposed check, though as a DM ruling.

Not quite true, because not being protected against smell doesn't make him easier to see or hear. So it's possible the werewolf just catch some scent, but seeing and hearing nothing he'd just go do something else or the like.

Of course, a DM's ruling can do what you suggest.

[mephnick]

Regarding scent for regular NPCs and PCs, I would just disregard it unless there's an effect that makes you stink for some reason or an ability that gives you Scent. These are the kinds of things that really don't deserve to bog down the game.

If someone fails to beat a perception check you can always adjudicate it as someone being smelled out for humour purposes, but I wouldn't force someone to hide their scent (whatever that means) to stealth successfully.

[strangebloke]

No.

Most humanoids are unable to distinguish someone's presence with the smell alone.

Wind or other smells usually mask your own scent, unless you're being really obvious, and the Stealth check is to hide the obvious traces of your presence (not you must be unseen to try to hide).

Creatures with a good sense of smell, like dogs, are obviously harder to hide form.

Of course, if you've got half a bottle of perfume poured on your head, an human is going to smell you even if you wear boots and cape of Elvenkind.


Ok, so the usage of perception is based off of whether, logically, they could use that ability in that instance?

So if you're just standing there and breathing evenly, and you have the cloak of elvenkind but not the boots, they get disadvantage, right? Because you're not doing anything that should make them able to hear you.

[Tanarii]

Perception checks for different senses are going to happen at different distances. The DM should only be calling for checks if there is a variable chance of success/failure. If you're too far away to smell them, then there's no chance of smelling them. But you might still be able to see them.

You can see someone up to two miles in the clear in daylight. You can hear a normal conversation as if it's a whisper-volume at about 30ft. A human can smell someone at maybe 5-10ft tops if they don't reek*? A canine should probably have a longer range for smell, but IMO keep the range the same, because advantage is about +5 to a check, but beyond that lose advantage for smell.

The way to figure it out is to use the best sense for detecting someone. If you can't see them at all, but can smell them, use advantage from smell. If you can hear them normally, but have disadvantage to sight from a cloak being used against them, normal check. If you can't hear them (too far away or loud ambient noise) and have disadtange from a cloak, roll with disadvantage.

*30ft minimum if it's indoors and I just smoked a cigar. I stink after I smoke a cigar. I once smoked one on my lunch break, and when I walked back to my cubicle, everyone on my side of the building bitched at me. I had to skip home to get a change of clothes. :smallredface:

[mephnick]

Not quite true, because not being protected against smell doesn't make him easier to see or hear. So it's possible the werewolf just catch some scent, but seeing and hearing nothing he'd just go do something else or the like.

I don't really want to get into one of these weird GitP debates about things without a proper answer, but a werewolf that smells a human nearby probably isn't just going to think, "huh, that's weird" and then go back to playing cards like a Skyrim guard. Animals with strong perceptive abilities (like wolves and dogs) trust those perceptive abilities. It's literally how they stay alive. I guess it depends on how "wolf-like" you make your werewolves, but I would definitely have one track the player to his exact spot and investigate.

[Unoriginal]

I don't really want to get into one of these weird GitP debates about things without a proper answer, but a werewolf that smells a human nearby probably isn't just going to think, "huh, that's weird" and then go back to playing cards like a Skyrim guard. Animals with strong perceptive abilities (like wolves and dogs) trust those perceptive abilities. It's literally how they stay alive. I guess it depends on how "wolf-like" you make your werewolves, but I would definitely have one track the player to his exact spot and investigate.

Fair enough. But also, keep in mind that there are probably a lot of human smells floating around, if they're in a non-isolated place. So it's not like there would be no reason why a smell like Cloack Man's could be there

[JackPhoenix]

Note that when the creature with smell notices you, you're still unseen and unheard, i.e. hidden, despite your presence and (propable) location being known. Even if the GM rules that having your location known means you aren't hidden (rules says you're hidden if you're unseen and unheard, nothing about smell, because it comes into play only rarely), you're still unseen and would get advantage on your own attack, and the enemy would get a disadvantage on attacks against you... but the enemy knows you're there, and thus you lose possible surprise. And he knows where to go to take a better look.

There's a reason why people use guard dogs.

[Unoriginal]

Note that when the creature with smell notices you, you're still unseen and unheard, i.e. hidden, despite your presence and (propable) location being known. Even if the GM rules that having your location known means you aren't hidden (rules says you're hidden if you're unseen and unheard, nothing about smell, because it comes into play only rarely), you're still unseen and would get advantage on your own attack, and the enemy would get a disadvantage on attacks against you... but the enemy knows you're there, and thus you lose possible surprise. And he knows where to go to take a better look.

There's a reason why people use guard dogs.

True.

A guard dog is a good counter against literally invisible beings.

[strangebloke]

Thanks for all the insight. This is a much better ruling than I ended up making.

[Gryndle]

I don't really want to get into one of these weird GitP debates about things without a proper answer, but a werewolf that smells a human nearby probably isn't just going to think, "huh, that's weird" and then go back to playing cards like a Skyrim guard. Animals with strong perceptive abilities (like wolves and dogs) trust those perceptive abilities. It's literally how they stay alive. I guess it depends on how "wolf-like" you make your werewolves, but I would definitely have one track the player to his exact spot and investigate.

exactly so. sneaking around something with an enhanced sense of smell either means being downwind of it, or disguising your scent as something uninteresting or that otherwise belongs (or would seem interesting but not threatening if you hope to ambush it).

IRL I hunt coyotes. Not because I enjoy hunting, I actually don't. But they are so overpopulated here that they are aggressive and dangerous, have been seen in the center of the city and have taken pets right off the leash. I live outside the city on approx. 75 acres of family owned forest and fields. I am the only family member that has the skills and is trusted to do it safely and humanely.
SO I prepare for my hunts ahead of time. I will make a trip around the property during the day to find tracks and trails to know where they frequent or cross our property.

but most relevant to the topic: I put my hunting clothes in my dog's bed for several days ahead of time. I take her blanket with me when I go out. the day of the hunt I shower, but no soap that day(even "unscented soap" has a scent that I can smell). I go out just before dark, set up in a good spot overlooking one of the frequented trails, and wait for dark and the howling to start.
My goal is not be seen or heard, and if they catch my scent the hope is that they smell dog and not me. And it has worked well for me so far.

So, at my table if a PC wanted to neutralize the advantage granted by a critters Scent ability, they either need to take precautions to mask their own scent or find some other way to give that critter DIS to its Perception (for a neutral roll)

[strangebloke]

exactly so. sneaking around something with an enhanced sense of smell either means being downwind of it, or disguising your scent as something uninteresting or that otherwise belongs (or would seem interesting but not threatening if you hope to ambush it).

IRL I hunt coyotes. Not because I enjoy hunting, I actually don't. But they are so overpopulated here that they are aggressive and dangerous, have been seen in the center of the city and have taken pets right off the leash. I live outside the city on approx. 75 acres of family owned forest and fields. I am the only family member that has the skills and is trusted to do it safely and humanely.
SO I prepare for my hunts ahead of time. I will make a trip around the property during the day to find tracks and trails to know where they frequent or cross our property.

but most relevant to the topic: I put my hunting clothes in my dog's bed for several days ahead of time. I take her blanket with me when I go out. the day of the hunt I shower, but no soap that day(even "unscented soap" has a scent that I can smell). I go out just before dark, set up in a good spot overlooking one of the frequented trails, and wait for dark and the howling to start.
My goal is not be seen or heard, and if they catch my scent the hope is that they smell dog and not me. And it has worked well for me so far.

So, at my table if a PC wanted to neutralize the advantage granted by a critters Scent ability, they either need to take precautions to mask their own scent or find some other way to give that critter DIS to its Perception (for a neutral roll)

So some critters have an 'advantage on scent' ability, but others just... seem like they should be able to smell things. Like dragons or some of the cats, etc. Is this a complete judgement call on the DM's part?

[Malifice]

Let's say you have a rogue with a Cloak of Elvenkind hiding from a werewolf. How does this work out?

In order to attempt to Hide the Rogue must be unseen. A Rogue that is already Hidden is unseen . If he becomes seen he is no longer Hidden.

He gets no benefit from the cloak attempting to Hide because the cloak only provides disadvantage on checks to see you.

The Werewolf trying to find a Hidden Rogue gets advantage to find him due to Scent ability. He isnt trying to see the Rogue (the rogue is unseen so any checks made to see the Rogue automatically fail). He's making a check to smell an already unseen Rogue (and he gets advantage on those checks).

[Xetheral]

In order to attempt to Hide the Rogue must be unseen. A Rogue that is already Hidden is unseen . If he becomes seen he is no longer Hidden.

He gets no benefit from the cloak attempting to Hide because the cloak only provides disadvantage on checks to see you.

The Werewolf trying to find a Hidden Rogue gets advantage to find him due to Scent ability. He isnt trying to see the Rogue (the rogue is unseen so any checks made to see the Rogue automatically fail). He's making a check to smell an already unseen Rogue (and he gets advantage on those checks).

Don't forget the hiding errata that permits hiding when "not seen clearly". In such situations the cloak might help the rogue become or stay unseen, giving advantage on any checks where the werewolf is trying to see the rogue. For example, a downwind rogue sufficiently far away to both not be seen clearly and be out of hearing range would get advantage from the cloak on the stealth check to avoid being noticed by the werewolf.

[strangebloke]

I guess it just seems like a kinda undefined space, where conveying things to the player might be hard, and where it might be easy to screw it up.

Like, AFAIK monsters don't have an explicit 'scent' ability, so by RAW, there's no real way to distinguish how good, say, a dragon is at sniffing out his prey. So that's something you have to convey to the player ahead of time, but that kind of detail is easy to forget.

Like I assume that dragons are pretty darn good sniffers. One of my players might assume that they're trash at it. This could lead to him getting toasted. Not a good situation.

[Tanarii]

Stealth is intentionally loosely defined space. At least one of the designers talked about that at some length.

Like many things in 5e, it's intentional because there's far too much variability to try and hard code it as a simulation. A basic rule is given, and it's left to the DM to tweak that.

And the absolute most basic rule (mechanics-wise) for DMs in 5e is:
Decide if something automatically succeeds or fails, or if a check is needed.

Unfortunately they buried the most basic rule of a DM running the game it in chapter 8 of the DMG. /sigh

[strangebloke]

Stealth is intentionally loosely defined space. At least one of the designers talked about that at some length.

Like many things in 5e, it's intentional because there's far too much variability to try and hard code it as a simulation. A basic rule is given, and it's left to the DM to tweak that.

And the absolute most basic rule (mechanics-wise) for DMs in 5e is:
Decide if something automatically succeeds or fails, or if a check is needed.

Unfortunately they buried the most basic rule of a DM running the game it in chapter 8 of the DMG. /sigh

Yeah, this is just an area where I think they overdid it.

It'd be real helpful if you added 'scent' as a sense next to truesight, tremorsense, etc.

[mephnick]

Unfortunately they buried the most basic rule of a DM running the game it in chapter 8 of the DMG. /sigh

Ah yes, the ol' "Let's put the section DMs HAVE TO READ IN ORDER TO RUN THE SYSTEM PROPERLY 240 pages into the book, and then mention the most important parts in like one sentence." strategy.

It's no wonder so many people don't know how to run a game.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, this is just an area where I think they overdid it.

It'd be real helpful if you added 'scent' as a sense next to truesight, tremorsense, etc.
Oh I get your point.

Yes, given the difference in ability to distinguish scents between something like a human and a mastiff or wolf, it could have been better handled. Humans and many humanoids will rarely have any chance of finding something by scent, so no check at all. Whereas a mastiff or wolf should be able to use scent as a sense far more often. Really the Keen Senses ability should specify that it includes the ability to make scent-specific perception checks at all far more often, at the DM's discretion.