Who is the most 3D character?

[yoshi927]

What with the "Elan's the most 3D" thread, I had an idea. This thread is about who's the most 3D character. Well, to kick things off, I'd like to submit Miko.

She's at least the most interesting to read for me. She also has goals and issues, and all that great stuff. Although, alot of the reason her character is interesting is that it's clear she has some history that we don't know about. But, then, it depends where you're coming from. For some people, that probably makes her MORE realistic rather than less.

[Dunamin]

Roy, definitely.

He has developed throughout the entire comic, his mentality is easy to relate to, especially in light of the frequent appearances of his family members to explain what a background he comes from.

And a major factor for me that makes him a great character: he's an imperfect hero, a realistic person with personality flaws alongside his great qualities.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Roy.

Miko is a bit "Over-the-Top," but Roy seems like a real person, thrust into a difficult situation.

He has to keep the team focused and on task, deal with Xykon and Redcloak, deal with his father in a realistic manner, and grow within himself. And now he has to find his way back to life. So far, he's had the most development (all the way up until he died), and will probably re-assess himself AGAIN to make sure he doesn't make a habit of dying.

Haley seems the second most 3-D considering her father's situation, and probably several problems she left behind in OtOoPCs.

After that is Elan, followed by Durkon, Vaarsuvius and Miko.

And the one character who has changed the least/not at all? Belkar.

Belkar is as 2-D as they come. Kill, kill, burn, then kill some more. Can't kill? He'll settle for non-lethal damage, until the chance to kill again comes along.

[Kish]

Counting only the six PCs...I don't know who's the most, but Belkar is definitely the least.

[Spiryt]

Counting only the six PCs...I don't know who's the most, but Belkar is definitely the least.

What can he say? He's simple man with simple tastes.

[kpenguin]

Roy.
Belkar is as 2-D as they come. Kill, kill, burn, then kill some more. Can't kill? He'll settle for non-lethal damage, until the chance to kill again comes along.

Belkar is so 2-D, he's 1-D. Over the entirety of the comic, Belkar has shown no depth, no character development, no nothing. It has become quite annoying at times. It just seems to me that Belkar is just a comedic character, nothing more.

[Spiryt]

Belkar is so 2-D, he's 1-D. Over the entirety of the comic, Belkar has shown no depth, no character development, no nothing. It has become quite annoying at times. It just seems to me that Belkar is just a comedic character, nothing more.

I don't quite get it.

Yes he's probably the same Belkar all time, but he developed at least a little.
Firstly, he was just sarcastic ranger, then we get to know about "deep seated emotional problems", then that he's 100% evil, and much latter that he's not only evil, but also he would avoid do anything good for any cost...
And something about causes of his emtorional problems.
He isn't less developed than, let's say, Varsuviuus.

Still, I can agree that " Belkar offers to do something for party, it looks like real loyal and good deed. But then it comes to be that it's not really good deed , he do it for humoristic/selfish reasons" joke is completely overused.

It's indeed quite annoying.
I would eaderly see some old Belkar humor, like " First aid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)" once again :smallsmile:

[Porthos]

Roy, and it isn't even close. :smallsmile:

Roy has Seriously Unresolved Issues with his father and wants to be nothing like him. Yet he acts like Eugene far more often than he would probably like.
Roy has tremendous envy regarding his sister (and a lot of Transfered Resentment), yet he loves her with all of his heart.
Despite his statements to the contrary, it's pretty obvious that he desperatly wants his fathers approval, and a lot of his anger and resentment is related to the fact that he never gets it.
Roy doesn't suffer fools gladly (gee... I wonder where he got that trait from :smalltongue: ), yet he learns to not only accept people for who they are, but he is willing to put his life in their hands.
He starts off as a Stereotypical "Try to Impress the Hot Babe" Male, but soon realizes that not only are looks superficial to a relationship, but that friendship (both with the person in question and ones prior friends) is far more important.
Even though he has made tremendous strides toward resolving his inner demons, he still backslides occasionally in stressful situations.
After initially deciding to destroy Xykon to prove to his father that he was a "worthy son", he now wants to get rid of Xykon because he is a threat to creation itself.
Even after many years adventuring, he is still brash enough to make critical mistakes (a sign that he hasn't completely become an One Note All Knowing Wise Man) and errors in judgement.
Related to the last point, he is willing to risk his life because "no one else can." Whether this is Ego talking (see last point) or a realization that Sacrifices Must Be Made is unclear, and thus fodder for endless arguments about him. Either way it is the sign of differing motivations and thus a well-rounded character.
He is willing to drop the Stop Xykon At All Costs Quest at a moments notice to go save his little sis.

And so on, and so on. In other words he is a complex character that is in the process of growing (or at least he was :smallwink:). He has quite a few contradictory aspects to his character, and he also has some flaws (perhaps fatal ones). He is heroic, trusting, loyal and brave. He is also sarcastic, belittling, and (at least a touch) arrogant. He is willing to examine his faults and try to overcome them. And, finally, he is willing to work with people that he doesn't want to and is willing to mold them in to better people.

He is, in short, the most three dimensional character in the strip. And each (mini)story arc that we seem him be a part of, we see either a new facet to his character, or we see him change a previous aspect of it.

[ChomZ]

I was under the impression that all the characters were 2 dimensional, unless you folks have some new-fangled computer screens that are way better than my CRT

[bluish_wolf]

Roy, simply because he is the most well developed. By the way, I believe the term is "round" not "3D."

[Palthera]

I think all the characters are developed in one way or another, but personality traits must be taken into consideration. Yes, Belkar has a one track mind, but ultimately, some people really do.
I also notice that a lot of the "3D-ness" is being espoused through personal issues. You can be a perfectly well-rounded individual without deep-seated resentment, sadness, issues and some dark past or deep secret. Happy is well-rounded too you know.

For that reason, I think V is fairly well rounded, as he/she has clearly been existing as an elven wizard for a long time and is comfortable exactly as he/she is. But then, as I said, I think they are all well-developed.

[Porthos]

Roy, simply because he is the most well developed. By the way, I believe the term is "round" not "3D."

Nope. Both terms can be used, fairly interchangably. :smallsmile: In this case the the term is in opposition to a "one/two dimensional character" (i.e. a flat character, or one that had very little depth to him).

If you google "three dimensional character" (and just ignore all of the references to video game construction) you'll see plenty of literary critiques using the term. :smallsmile:

[Harold]

Roy with no second thoughts. just look at him hes like 3-D-ish,
and the least would have to be belkar.

[the_tick_rules]

roy and haley are both pretty developed.

[ag30476]

This thread is about who's the most 3D character.
Xykon. Sure he doesn't have unresolved issues yada yada yada and yeah he really doesn't do much to "learning" and "growing" but you don't get to be an megalomaniac serial-killing lich unless you're already fully "fleshed out" in 3D evil character goodness. I mean, if I was facing an epic level undead sorcerer, I would expect it to act like Xykon...OK maybe not as funny.

But I'm a simple reader with simple tastes in villians. Now if you want a conflicted villian, try Redcloak, specially in SoD.

[Wolfman42666]

I'd love to say Redcloak (since revenge is the most used motivation) But I can't.

And just how is Belkar 2d with no charcter development at all when he sent his shoulder angel frickin insane, that had to be the best joke I's heard in ages.
Why isn't he Jolly!?

Still I really like the:
Belkar does something that helps the par- nevermind, gags.

Besides as Belkar himself said
We can't all be the straight man, some of us tell jokes for a living.

So give the guy a break, just cause he'd harvest your liver as quick as look at you, doesn't mean you can have a go at him.(:smallamused:)

[Setra]

I think Durkon is fairly fleshed out, to some extent or another.

Here is a man, who despite all tradition, would leave his home, for the sake of duty. He would live in a land with horrid and rude humans.

On another side, we also see not only his dedication to duty, but to his friends. We're talking about the guy who would possibly cast Raise Dead on Belkar, that kind of loyalty to companions means something.

Also, we can see that he does have a bit of a silly side despite these kind of things. Ordering a giant golden mug of beer, and you have to admit he certainly looks like he's having fun whenever he casts Thor's Might.

In addition, we can see he does have his own desires, even though he may hold his duty above them. As we saw in his time with Hilgya.

He may not be the most 3d, but give a Dwarf some respect.

[boomwolf]

i think redcloak is the most 3D...

he is not truely evil. yet he sides with the lich. (i cant spell it!)
he change his view of the world several times in the story.
he got a complex mind.
he is questioning himself if he is doing the right thing.

a 2D char would not do that.
and i am too lazy to get into why he is more then elan, nale, and roy...

[Surfing HalfOrc]

<snip>
On another side, we also see not only his dedication to duty, but to his friends. </snip>

<snip> In addition, we can see he does have his own desires, even though he may hold his duty above them. As we saw in his time with Hilgya. </snip?



It's his time with Hilgya, and the possible results that will show his most development. He met her, got to know her as a person, got a little "BOOM CHICKA BOW WOW" time, then found out she was married. So he gave her the old heave-ho.

But was he wearing a "Dwarven Defender?" Or is there a little Durkon out there?

"Hell hath no fury..." and all that. Durkon will be getting his moment to really shine, or really screw up. Wonder which it will be...

[Setra]

i think redcloak is the most 3D...

he is not truely evil. yet he sides with the lich. (i cant spell it!)
he change his view of the world several times in the story.
he got a complex mind.
he is questioning himself if he is doing the right thing.

a 2D char would not do that.
and i am too lazy to get into why he is more then elan, nale, and roy...
What makes you think Redcloak is not evil?

Just because he appreciates his fellow Goblins does not mean he is not evil. He was perfectly willing to kill his ally, just beccause she was human. That's still evil.

~~

As for Durkon having a child, it would be quite interesting. Though the point has been brought up numerous times.

[Radar]

i think redcloak is the most 3D...

he is not truely evil. yet he sides with the lich. (i cant spell it!)
he change his view of the world several times in the story.
he got a complex mind.
he is questioning himself if he is doing the right thing.

a 2D char would not do that.
and i am too lazy to get into why he is more then elan, nale, and roy...
This is mostly, what i was about to say. Actually i think, he is mostly evil because goblins are labeled as such - he cares for his people after all. For them killing humans is as normal and proper, as it is killing goblins for humans. He had a few really great moments like here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html

[Fitzclowningham]

Redcloak. Sure, Roy has issues with his father, about the blood oath, and being a fighter and not a wizard, but that's it. In SOD, we see everything that influenced Redcloak and how he reacted and adapted to his situation, why he is where he is now, and what might have been.

Roy doesn't have the same depth - he decides to try to fulfill the blood oath out of stubbornness as much as anything, and that's his whole story. Yeah, he's LG, yeah, he's loyal, yeah, he likes girls, etc., but that's about it.

Redcloak's got all the makings of a truly tragic figure. Roy doesn't.

[Morty]

Redcloak, hands down. Even without reading SoD, he's got surprising depth, something rather rare among evil characters. Plus, it's not usual to be evil and somewhat noble at the same time. Not to mention that's he's intelligent, civilized goblin, which breaks the stereoype.

[Jayabalard]

obviously Thog and Nale are the most 3-d (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html)

[The Wanderer]

When I saw this yesterday I just thought Roy immediately... but it's a good point about Redcloak. So I'd say Roy for the PCs, Redcloak for the NPCs.

[Querzis]

obviously Thog and Nale are the most 3-d (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html)

Lol. Anyway, Roy got all the good materials for a hero, even though hes not perfect and hes obviously the one who had the most character developpement until now. Redcloak, has Fitz said, got all the materials for a tragic figure...but this a Humor/Adventure comic. Even though he has better reasons then most of the tragic villiains, I usually dont care about tragic character at all. Belkar, Miko and V are the least 3D character. They all pretty much never change (though Miko might have changed after her discussion with Soon but she died so who cares). Finally, even though right now he isnt the most 3D character at all, Elan is the most likely character to have important character developpement and backgrounds exposition soon. (Especially if lord Tyrania is really his father).

[Tirian]

Roy doesn't have the same depth - he decides to try to fulfill the blood oath out of stubbornness as much as anything, and that's his whole story. Yeah, he's LG, yeah, he's loyal, yeah, he likes girls, etc., but that's about it.

I tend to agree. He'll go to any lengths to accomplish the blood oath, and will do things that will maximize his chances of winning, but he's spent 482 comics not throwing Elan off the team, a person for whom Roy has no respect and who could probably be easily replaced with someone whose company and skills Roy would welcome. It's things like that that remind us that Roy's decisions are dictated by the storyline and not by any specific efforts to characterize him.

By contrast, I think that Haley's actions are consistently true to the character that has been developed for her over the course of the story. The same could be said of Durkon, although obviously much less effort has been given to fleshing him out.

[Roderick_BR]

What can he say? He's simple man with simple tastes.
Belkar has only 2 needs: Kill people, and seek people to kill.

I agree that Roy is the most 3D, for being "imperfect" making him the more human (not race =P ) in the story.

I'd put both Elan and Haley in 2nd.
Elan seems to look for his friends as people he admires, and draws his inspiration from them.
Haley plays the cool rogue role, and shows that she actually hides a lot of internal turmoil.
By 3rd, V and Durkon, maybe because their personailities are more set, and they got less stage time. V is the group's expert, and Durkon is their wise man. No much has changed.
Belkar falls into 3th, because his simplicity is his charm.

For others:
Hinjo is a lot like Roy: A human under the pressure of responsability. We see him do mistakes from time to time, and he tries to make up for them.
Miko: Interestingly enough, she is very 3D, also, showing how sheer pressure can break a person. If Hinjo were in her place, I don't doubt he would end up in the same way.
Lord Shojo: Another character that beared the weight of responsability, even by deceiving those that trusted him more. He did get some fun at Roy's expense, though ;)

I won't talk much about the recurring villains, because my time is short now. Maybe later.

[The Wanderer]

I tend to agree. He'll go to any lengths to accomplish the blood oath, and will do things that will maximize his chances of winning, but he's spent 482 comics not throwing Elan off the team, a person for whom Roy has no respect and who could probably be easily replaced with someone whose company and skills Roy would welcome. It's things like that that remind us that Roy's decisions are dictated by the storyline and not by any specific efforts to characterize him.

I think you're forgetting about the part when Elan was taken by the bandits and Roy was happy to leave him, only to have the rest of the Order abandon him for his callous attitude. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) Link 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html)

[Roderick_BR]

I think you're forgetting about the part when Elan was taken by the bandits and Roy was happy to leave him, only to have the rest of the Order abandon him for his callous attitude. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) Link 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html)
And soon after have a change of heart, when he stopped thinking only about his quest for a minute.

[Oxymoron]

But was he wearing a "Dwarven Defender?"

OMG, that was the funniest joke I`ve seen in ages. Co-write with Rich, please!

[Tirian]

I think you're forgetting about the part when Elan was taken by the bandits and Roy was happy to leave him, only to have the rest of the Order abandon him for his callous attitude. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) Link 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html)

I had not forgotten. That would have been leaving Elan to his death, and the party was completely justified in vetoing Roy's decision.

But it would have been a different matter if Roy's favor from Shojo after the trial had been "Help me recruit a twelfth-level ranger and a multiclassed fighter so that I can build a team in which I have confidence." That may or may not have driven Haley off, but the majority of her personalities at the time probably felt that losing him was inevitable anyway. V and Durkon both like Elan relatively well I suppose, but pragmatically I think that they would strongly favor sharing their experience with someone who is carrying a sixth of the load.

[The Wanderer]

Sorry, but you're only pushing the case that Roy has developed and grown in his interpersonal relationships. Earlier on Roy was thinking solely in terms of what he could get out of people, what use they were to him. Which is a major reason he wanted to disband the Order right from the start: they weren't going to be any use to him, they weren't going to be able to help him fulfill his blood oath, their quirks annoyed him, etc. Everything in how Roy was dealing with the rest of the group was based around him, his needs, his wants, and the others could go f--- themselves for all Roy cared.

Probably about the time that he was telling Miko he wouldn't touch her with a 10 ft pole, however, roy had to come to the realization that his wants and needs weren't the be all and end all of everything. And the fact that the other members of the Order had, despite plenty of opportunity to do otherwise, risked their lives for him on his quest, stayed with him when he was being an ass, that he'd laughed and shared memories with them, that they were, simply put, his friends, counted for more than the stats on 12th level ranger or fighter. And also perhaps the fact that he owed them a responsibility, both for being their leader and for the fact that he was the one that sent them head to head with an epic level lich sorcerer.

Now, I don't have and have never read Paladin Blues, but I do remember reading on here at some point that one of the points of the arc, according to Rich in the introduction, was about Roy becoming a better leader. The fact that he hasn't kicked Elan out in favor of someone with gaudy stats is a point in favor of his development and how he deals with other people, and a sign of characterization, because at one point he surely would have.

[Tirian]

I think you're putting a lot into Roy's maturation as a leader that wasn't shown in the actual post-trial strips, particularly regarding Elan. Roy's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0307.html) opinion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0321.html) seem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html) to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html) have (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0336.html) changed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html) much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html). If you want to go to the carefully-planned summation, go ahead and look at Roy's final words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html). They aren't "part of me hates Elan and part grudgingly respects him," it is much closer to "part of me hates Elan and part realizes that he doesn't even deserve my contempt."

[The Wanderer]

So... basically all you're saying is that for you to consider Roy as having changed, what he'll have to do is not make any jokes or snarky comments in a humor comic. Gotcha.

And he says nothing about hating Elan at the end. He says "part of me wants to be mad at him". Anger does not equal hate, and since Roy both took damage from saving Elan from his own foolishness earlier on, including using his last potion, (one that might have carried him through the effects of the fall), he has a very slight reason to actually be upset at the guy.

But despite that he doesn't spend his last moments cursing and blaming Elan, as he probably would have earlier, what he does say is "I hope him and Haley get out of this mess alive and go live happily ever after".

Honestly, if you can't see the difference between that and being willing to leave Elan to his likely death with the bandits... well, then there's nothing more I can say, is there?

[Querzis]

I think you're putting a lot into Roy's maturation as a leader that wasn't shown in the actual post-trial strips, particularly regarding Elan. Roy's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0307.html) opinion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0321.html) seem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html) to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html) have (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0336.html) changed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html) much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html). If you want to go to the carefully-planned summation, go ahead and look at Roy's final words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html). They aren't "part of me hates Elan and part grudgingly respects him," it is much closer to "part of me hates Elan and part realizes that he doesn't even deserve my contempt."

Yeah Roy still think Elan is useless and annoying and you know why? Because Elan IS useless and very annoying (or at least he always is around Roy). And even though Elan get in Roy's way more then he help him, Roy still wish him an happy life and now fight not for a stupid bload oath but to protect innocent! Hell, I would even say Roy was more LN at the start of the comic then anything else while now he doesnt seems to care much about his Lawfull part and certainly act more NG then LG as far as I'm concerned.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I think you're putting a lot into Roy's maturation as a leader that wasn't shown in the actual post-trial strips, particularly regarding Elan. Roy's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0307.html) opinion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0321.html) seem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html) to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html) have (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0336.html) changed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html) much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html). If you want to go to the carefully-planned summation, go ahead and look at Roy's final words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html). They aren't "part of me hates Elan and part grudgingly respects him," it is much closer to "part of me hates Elan and part realizes that he doesn't even deserve my contempt."

Actually, his final words on Elan was hoping that he and Haley would have a happy life together.

:smallsmile:

[Krytha]

Actually, his final words on Elan was hoping that he and Haley would have a happy life together.

:smallsmile:

Roy's a big softie. Especially after the ground broke all the bones in his body. :(

[Senna]

Mmm. After reading all this, I have to agree it's Roy, if only because he has major MAJOR flaws which we don't really have beaten over our heads as flaws. He's hypocritical, he's often not the most concerned friend, part of which comes out of him being incredibly arrogant in his hero-ness. But at the same time he has his great positives - his leadership and his ability to go unwaveringly after something, a long memory for the aspects of his team's lives that he knows. And a lot of the time, those good things keep the bad ones from getting out of control, and sometimes the bad ones interrupt and even superceed the good ones. All of which is very human, and a bit different from some of the other characters, whose good and bad aspects we seem to be beaten over the head with a good deal more, which makes them feel a lot more caricature-ish.

[VanBuren]

I think you're putting a lot into Roy's maturation as a leader that wasn't shown in the actual post-trial strips, particularly regarding Elan. Roy's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0307.html) opinion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0321.html) seem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html) to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html) have (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0336.html) changed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html) much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html). If you want to go to the carefully-planned summation, go ahead and look at Roy's final words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html). They aren't "part of me hates Elan and part grudgingly respects him," it is much closer to "part of me hates Elan and part realizes that he doesn't even deserve my contempt."

You know, about half of those have nothing to do with the point you're trying to make.

[Tirian]

You know, about half of those have nothing to do with the point you're trying to make.

I don't believe so. My point is that after the trial, Roy had a natural and safe place to leave Elan behind. The Wanderer suggests that Roy came out of the Miko arc as a better leader than the way he went in (I presume to the degree that he now recognizes the core talents and inner wonderfulness of his teammates and now regards them as friends and preferable to switching party members). I think that each of the strips that I bring forward counter that point: Roy still doesn't want to listen every time Elan opens his mouth and his snideness does little to diminish Roy's original charge that Elan is "an obstacle that this team overcomes on a regular basis". In the interest of fair play, I will also point out this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0332.html) as a place where Roy actually did listen to Elan and thereby bettered himself (if only briefly). I admit that Roy has regained enough of his LG core that he doesn't wish ill or harm for Elan, but to me his repentent speeches here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html)and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)have sounded more generic: I don't get the sense that he wishes more good for Elan than he does for every level 0 NPC in the world.

Which might be Roy's character: that he will save the world and joylessly take every action necessary to do so, whether that is jumping onto a flying zombie dragon in someone else's control or living in the shadow of a father who has never loved you or enduring the counterproductive and grating efforts of a buffoonish teammate. *shrug*

[Setra]

Roy still doesn't want to listen every time Elan opens his mouth and his snideness does little to diminish Roy's original charge that Elan is "an obstacle that this team overcomes on a regular basis".To be completely fair, what you said Roy seems to think, is pretty much true.

Heck, in one of the 'examples', Roy says Elan should not give a speech to the soldiers. Elan then disobeys the order by deferring to a higher 'power' so to speak, the proceeds to completely shatter their morale

[Krytha]

Roy has gotten better. Elan has gotten better, but far less so. Elan's improvement is so negligible that he hasn't yet transcended the category that he inhabits in Roy's brain (the one that does pointless things, messes stuff up and then needs to be saved). Simply put, Roy regards Elan as what he is, a man-child. He needs to be taken care of, and is often more trouble than he is worth, but in the end, he will forgive him because Elan can't do much better.

You will also note that it is no longer Roy's party. Elan was free to leave the party, but he stayed despite not being contractually bound. So in that sense, Elan chose Roy (which shows that Roy must be doing something right).

[Porthos]

On the Roy/Elan front, this is another sign of complexity. In the past, Roy viewed Elan as an annoyance at best, and a hinderance at worst. But now? Now I really beleive that there is a Big Brother (Roy)/ Little Brother (Elan) dynamic at work. Sure Roy is still slightly sarcastic toward Elan. But he doesn't really mean it. At least not nearly to the degree that he used to. :smallwink:

Look at the strips post-Bandit Quest and pre-Bandit Quest. Before, Roy would say not just sarcastic things, but mean spirited things. Afterward, the jibes seem to have a much lighter touch to them. And don't forget, Roy was, quite literarily, willing to take a bullet arrow for Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html) Without even a second thought.

So while on the surface it may look like Roy's attuitde toward Elan is exactly the same, I feel a closer analysis shows that Roy's estimation of Elan has risen by leaps and bounds. Roy genuinely viewes Elan as a friend. You couldn't say that looking at the early run of strips.

[Krytha]

There is no doubt in my mind that Roy [at this point in the comic] would lay his life down for Elan to drag his muddy boots of Elvenkind all over, but he will do it knowing that Elan probably caused the situation in the first place and will probably not even know what Roy did for him until it is too late to say "I'm sorry my idiocy cost you your life". It feels like Roy has resigned himself to dealing with Elan in this way now - or maybe he just realizes that it isn't worth his time to make scathing jabs at Elan when they don't even register in the Elanland checkout line.

In my mind, that still reflects better on Roy than Elan...

[Santino18]

Not sure if this fits, but Roy is certainly the most 3D.

In 313 Words Fail (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html) the Giant captures the soul of every guy who's ever been in love. The feeling of ecstasy is perfectly preserved in that simple comic, makeing Roy, IMHO, the most human character in the entire zany cast.

Thanks Celia.

[ag30476]

Not sure if this fits, but Roy is certainly the most 3D.

In 313 Words Fail (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html) the Giant captures the soul of every guy who's ever been in love. The feeling of ecstasy is perfectly preserved in that simple comic, makeing Roy, IMHO, the most human character in the entire zany cast.

Thanks Celia.

Every guy in love acts like Tom Cruise? Nah, that was more like an "I'm gonna get me some tonight!" more than anything else.

[Setra]

To me it looked more like..

A nice girl likes me and I'm dating her without anything going wrong!

I could almost bet money he was sure someone'd try to kidnap her.

[Hugo the Dwarf]

I think that dude under the pink umbrella is most 3D character. He - It is to complex to be 2D...Belkar is definetly 1D...Roy is also top in 3D list

[Charles Phipps]

I won't insult Roy as he's had his moments. Usually, he's too busy being macho man or Charlie Brown.

Nevertheless, I pick Elan then Haley.

Then Hinjo.

Then Miko.

Then V

Then Redcloak.

THEN Roy.

As for the whole Elan bit. Roy is the LEAST OBSERVANT MAN ON THE PLANET. He apparently missed Haley was in mortal danger with Nale and it was up to Elan to save her. He also missed completely the situation with his sister.

Roy's a great guy but his density has gotten the group into trouble as much as Elan.

[Sir Enigma]

<snip>

As for the whole Elan bit. Roy is the LEAST OBSERVANT MAN ON THE PLANET. He apparently missed Haley was in mortal danger with Nale and it was up to Elan to save her.

I don't think that's really a fair comparison. Everyone thought Nale was in prison in Cliffport, except for Elan - who had the double advantages of a) knowing about the switch and b) having Nale tell him here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html) that he was planning to kill the party. Roy had no way to know that the switch was even performed.

[Porthos]

I won't insult Roy as he's had his moments. Usually, he's too busy being macho man or Charlie Brown.

Nevertheless, I pick Elan then Haley.

Then Hinjo.

Then Miko.

Then V

Then Redcloak.

THEN Roy.


Vaarsuvius is a more Three Dimensional Character than both Redcloak and Roy? :smalleek: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: No offense meant Charles, but I think your biases are showing through a bit. :smalltongue:

As for the whole "least observant man on the planet" piece of hyperbole... none of the OotS realized what was going on. None of them. Only when Nale bathed did Belkar figure out the switch, and that was only becuase of some racial crunchiness and not any sort of observational skills.

And, really, the Order of the Stick is not exactly known for it's ability to make spot checks. :smalltongue:

[Setra]

And, really, the Order of the Stick is not exactly known for it's ability to make spot checks. :smalltongue:
Wouldn't it be Sense Motive?

Though I'm pretty sure only Haley has that.

[Querzis]

I won't insult Roy.

Ok so in the first sentence you say you wont insult Roy. But you know even if you dont use words like idiot or bastard: macho man, charlie brown and «the least observant man on the planet» are insults. I would also consider being put after Miko and V very insulting, except Belkar I barely see who could be more 2D then them (though Miko could have changed a lot if she would have survived after talking to Soon). You are insulting Redcloak too as far as I'm concerned. And Haley I understand, shes very human but even if Elan as lots of character developpement potential, hes barely changed at all until now and he may be the most childlike character (along with MiTD) but definitly not the most human.

Seriously, cant you just admit you hate Roy and get this over with? Its fine really, you dont have to like him but please dont try to rationalize your hate. I hate Miko, why? Because shes Miko...I dont need any other reasons and you can like her if you want.


Roy's a great guy but his density has gotten the group into trouble as much as Elan.

By the way, I hope that was a joke. No matter if you hate him or not, you cant be serious about that!

[Alfryd]

Wouldn't it be Sense Motive?
Though I'm pretty sure only Haley has that.
And, alas, she's also picked up the Lesser Paranoia feat.

I think Rich's Sequential Tart (http://sequentialtart.com/article.php?id=467) interview would suggest that Belkar is his least and Haley one of the more complex characters from the Order.

[The Wanderer]

As for the whole Elan bit. Roy is the LEAST OBSERVANT MAN ON THE PLANET. He apparently missed Haley was in mortal danger with Nale and it was up to Elan to save her. He also missed completely the situation with his sister.

... and a spot check has what to do with being a well developed fictional character exactly?

Also, Rich has flat out admitted that he has done little to no characterization on certain characters, and/or that certain mini-arc were primarily meant to develop them. The most notable to my mind are Durkon and V.

Hasn't Rich admitted to creating Durkon's fear of trees solely for the value of giving his character quirks and a personal touch instead of having him be the utterly stereotypical, one note dwarven cleric?

And V is great, and has a dry sense of humor that make me laugh, but aside from that could often be a direct transplant of the Raistlin Majere mold of "physically frail ambitious wizard who seeks ultimate arcane power". For example, I bet no one here could actually say why V has that craving for power. We can speculate all we want about it being a reaction to his physical frailty, etc, but we don't actually know what's going on in her head. (Gender confusion in that last sentence is intentional :smallwink: )

If V was fully developed we'd know what turned him/her to seeking out magic, what he/she feels about being away from the spouse for so long while on this quest, the doubts and insecurities he has, the possible abuse or neglect or whatever that made her so determined not to simply become a great mage but to achieve "ultimate arcane power", etc. I think more of that might be shown in the future, especially going into the new arc with V having been dealt a blow to his pride in Azure City, but at the moment V is not completely developed.

Roy is, probably more so than any character to date.

[Setra]

And V is great, and has a dry sense of humor that make me laugh, but aside from that could often be a direct transplant of the Raistlin Majere mold of "physically frail ambitious wizard who seeks ultimate arcane power".
And this is why, even though people don't think it's true, I one day suspect V may become Evil.

[Alfryd]

And this is why, even though people don't think it's true, I one day suspect V may become Evil.
He would be quite enjoyable in that role. However, he's at least nominally commited to the notions of common decency, even if he won't make vast sacrifices to uphold them, and is happy to inflict revenge for perceived transgressions of said rules against zer. I think V would view cackling, maniacal villaindom, or even the passive-malignant-indifferent-manipulator-of-others role as... how can I put this? Poor manners.

Looking back, there is one faint hint at a few cracks in V's veneer of self-inflated, pompous braggadocio- No. 328, panel 7.