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HMD
2017-12-19, 06:45 PM
**edited to remove exaggeration and more realistic of what's actually going on**
Okay, help me give him what he wants. This is a big post to explain everything. shenanigans galore Clarification


My DM is running a custom campaign and is making things very interesting. We have a 24 ability point buy, max of 18 total in a stat during buy, and we start with 6 of what he calls Class Points, which can be spent on LITERALLY ANYTHING from 3.5 and Pathfinder, (except feats sadly, those are normal). All our BaB, HD and Saves are poor and we are a generic race (technically no race at all, not even base ones or human), but we can spend one Class Point to increase them by one step up to BaB 1 from .5, poor saves to good, and HD from D6 up to D12. all skills are class skills. we can also spend Class Points to "acquire" class abilities from any official class, archetype and d20pfsrd approved 3rd party, but not D&DWiki classes. We must meet the level requirement of the class ability you would gain it at normally. We gain 1 ability point every level (only one at level 4, it isn't doubled) as well as another class point. however this is where things become strange.If a skill would increase after so many levels (sneak attack, eldritch blast, fighter bonus feats, etc) you have to put an additional class point to gain the increase. spell casters must use another point any time they would gain a new spell level (1st 3rd 5th etc) to gain that new spell level slot.

Because we have no race, we are able to pick a racial class bonus for any race from any class as long as we have an ability from that class. we also can acquire racial abilities (excluding ability modifiers) by taking a racial feat for that race. we must meet all requirements to take the feat (aside from the obvious racial requirement) and then choose one ability from the specified race. 1 feat at 1st level, and every 3rd level like normal as well as 1+int skill points per levels. we are also running on Fast XP ratios.

What would you create to make my DM proud of you?
Any questions or clarifications, just ask.

LordEntrails
2017-12-19, 06:48 PM
Okay, help me break his campaign, this is a big post to explain everything. shenanigans galore
...
What would you create to make my DM sigh in defeat when you sat down to play?


Why would you want to do either of these things? Maybe you are just exaggerating and all the players are looking to create crazy powerful PC's that the GM is fine with everyone doing that?

Or are you actually trying to take the fun out of the game for your GM and likely the other players?

MrNobody
2017-12-19, 06:54 PM
Why don't you simply admit to your DM that you don't like this strange experiment and ask:
- to be called back when the experiment ends?
- to play with regular rules instead?

As strange as it sounds, this rules seem something your DM thought about and worked a lot: it wouldn't be nice to dislike it but still partecipate only to ruin it.

HMD
2017-12-19, 06:58 PM
Why would you want to do either of these things? Maybe you are just exaggerating and all the players are looking to create crazy powerful PC's that the GM is fine with everyone doing that?

I am exaggerating. Our DM has stated if you are not overly powerful, you will be left behind by the campaign. All of us, including the DM (and yes he is playing in his own campaign), try our hardest to play extremely optimized characters and help each other find better ways to do things. I am just interested to see what those that are veterans of the D20 system and pathfinder can come up with by working together with these rules he has set in place.

Jay R
2017-12-19, 10:48 PM
ll of us, including the DM (and yes he is playing in his own campaign), try our hardest to play extremely optimized characters and help each other find better ways to do things.

That's your problem. You're following old habits in a stunningly delightful new situation. You are given the opportunity to design almost anything. Drop the old "I have all the game rules and will find the most optimized use of them" approach, and build what you want.

Let me emphasize the crucial aspect of that idea: build what you want.

Consider the most fun character you've ever thought about, and start creating that character.

If it doesn't work and you're left behind - OK, it didn't work. But that's better than missing out on this incredible opportunity.

You have the chance to ignore game design and make exactly the character that you have always wanted to play, but never fit the game you were in. Go for the gusto.

Build what YOU want.

LordEntrails
2017-12-19, 10:52 PM
If you want to go melee, start with a minotaur with hulking brute feat. From there you can go several ways, including a luck domain cleric with all the luck feats, by about level 10 you will crit on all 1, 19, 20 and several other times per day.

Any which way, go for cleave and a reach weapon, by ~5th level you can kill 3 mooks per round, plus an opportunity attack to.

We're running a party of 3 minotaurs (ranger twf and barb and cleric) right now. At level 3 we are dealing... ~30 damage per turn.

Coventry
2017-12-19, 10:53 PM
This is not a full build, but I would consider grabbing the Summon Monster series from the Pathfinder Summoner class. You end up spending a class point at every odd level, but the ability to summon level-relevant creatures all the way up seems like a good place to start.

The Shadowmind
2017-12-20, 01:30 AM
Class Points:
1(6): Psionics:Psion, Medic Powers(Vitalist), Collective (Vitalist), Horror (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/dread/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/nightmare-constructor), Efficient Surge +1(Pathfinder Wildder), Increase HD size.
2 Spirit of Many(vitalist or tactician)
3 Psionics lvl 2
4 Collective Healing(Vitalist)
5 Psionic lvl 3
6: Efficient Surge +2
7 Psionics lvl 4
8 Thrallherd( Thrallherd PrC) You want the 3.5 version
9 Psionics lvl 5.
10 Efficient Surge +3
11 Psionics lvl 6
12 Efficient Surge +4
13 Psoinics lvl 7
14 Capricious Step Ecolocator PrC
15 Psionics lvl 8.
16 Font of Power(Metamind PrC)
17 Psionics lvl 9.
18 Twofold Master (Ex) Thrallherd PrC
19
20.

Hellpyre
2017-12-20, 04:10 AM
I mean, you could just take Cleric and Sorcerer casting straight to 9s and be doing pretty darn well. But that's boring.

noob
2017-12-20, 10:34 AM
3 good saves costs 3 points.
Then taking spell-casting as a wizard costs 1 point at level 1 then one point every two levels
Then you can at first level get 2 more things(such as an animal companion or a familiar or heck both of them) and at even levels you grab the coolest class features(such as evasion or divine grace or wild shape or broken planar shepherd stuff or various turnings)

HMD
2017-12-20, 04:59 PM
This is not a full build, but I would consider grabbing the Summon Monster series from the Pathfinder Summoner class. You end up spending a class point at every odd level, but the ability to summon level-relevant creatures all the way up seems like a good place to start.

I actually did do this and took the feat to increase STR and CON on my summons (house ruled to increase CHA on undead for fun). Ive always wanted to play a summoner of some sort without all the extra things like eidilions, so I grabbed that and some gunslinger stuff, and currently I summon 1d4+2 bloody skeletons, sandwiching the enemy between the wall of tanks/shields of my allys and some regenerating undead, and shoot with a masterwork rifle with +11 to hit on touch ac. I've grabbed the Battle dancers AC bonus since my CHA and DEX are at 20 now. With 20 touch and normal AC as a ranged DPS+caster(?), mobs are having a tough time hitting me. I wont have the option to spend points on new stuff until around 8, due to the summoner every odd and using the gunslinger on every even. I need the "multiple shots in one bullet" deed so I can keep up with the front line later on. probably will grab the paladins bonus to saves ability since i have high CHA at some point.

Kaptin Keen
2017-12-20, 05:08 PM
So ... making a full BAB, full caster would take how many points? 3? With the rest for saves and hitdice?

I dunno, I never power play. But I'd make a full caster barbarian. Somehow.

tyckspoon
2017-12-20, 06:41 PM
So ... making a full BAB, full caster would take how many points? 3? With the rest for saves and hitdice?

I dunno, I never power play. But I'd make a full caster barbarian. Somehow.

Would be relatively easy - starting and ending Rage is a free action in Pathfinder, so you just need immunity to fatigue to enable rage-cycling. Go into rage at the end of your turn, stop it at the start of your turn, cast a spell, go back into rage. Alternate between raging during your turn (if you want to use a rage power or just hit something) or ending rage to cast another spell.

Hmm.. I think with the rules as described I would look to cherrypick as many X stat to Y effects as possible, preferably all for the same stat, and then just dump all the ability score increases into that stat. It was pretty easy to do with Charisma in 3.5; I'm not sure what kind of options there are for it in Pathfinder content aside from the classic Paladin Cha-to-Saves and Monk Wis-to-AC.

(Would try going that route because buying those abilities should only ever take 1 class point, and then they will naturally scale as your key score/scores improve - it'd be the lazy way to get nice high static numbers, once you found the class abilities you need to yoink.)

Kaptin Keen
2017-12-21, 12:56 AM
Would be relatively easy - starting and ending Rage is a free action in Pathfinder, so you just need immunity to fatigue to enable rage-cycling. Go into rage at the end of your turn, stop it at the start of your turn, cast a spell, go back into rage. Alternate between raging during your turn (if you want to use a rage power or just hit something) or ending rage to cast another spell.

Hmm.. I think with the rules as described I would look to cherrypick as many X stat to Y effects as possible, preferably all for the same stat, and then just dump all the ability score increases into that stat. It was pretty easy to do with Charisma in 3.5; I'm not sure what kind of options there are for it in Pathfinder content aside from the classic Paladin Cha-to-Saves and Monk Wis-to-AC.

(Would try going that route because buying those abilities should only ever take 1 class point, and then they will naturally scale as your key score/scores improve - it'd be the lazy way to get nice high static numbers, once you found the class abilities you need to yoink.)

Heh! =)

I have a psi-barian I play. He's nothing like a full caster, he just casts a few buffs, and goes very brightly nova for a few fights a day. I'd never have come up with the in-and-out-of-rage, like I said I never power play. He just whacks people for power attacks doing more than 100% of their hit points.

I mean, that might not qualify as not-power-play, but it's ... less, you know? =)

noob
2017-12-21, 02:43 AM
So ... making a full BAB, full caster would take how many points? 3? With the rest for saves and hitdice?

I dunno, I never power play. But I'd make a full caster barbarian. Somehow.

Why make a full bab full caster when there is a cleric spell who gives you full bab?(and that you can grab with either arcane disciple or the transmuter class feature that you can now buy)
All saves high is actually more useful(unless grabbing the two cha to saves class features to get twice your charisma to saves and have way more than just having all saves high but it is useful only much later in game since those cha to saves are at level 2 and 7(or something else))

One fun thing is that you would be unable to make a regular pathfinder paladin with that system.(but that is pathfinder class feature creep for you)
Idem for the pathfinder ranger and for the pathfinder rogue.
meanwhile pathfinder wizard would be easy if you remove the arcane school and replace it by awesome stuff you would still have a bunch of excess points

Kaptin Keen
2017-12-21, 05:51 AM
Why make a full bab full caster when there is a cleric spell who gives you full bab?

If you obviously insist on reading only half my post - why do you respond to it?

noob
2017-12-21, 06:22 AM
If you obviously insist on reading only half my post - why do you respond to it?

You still are going to be better off dropping your bab to get more fighting class features if you want to be a good fullcasting barbarian.
I did read the whole post.
Having full bab innately is useless compared to getting more good class features for fighting.
For example if you pick cleric casting getting two turning(which is the thing which could replace a character point) is better than getting bab above minimum since with two extra different turning you can use divine metamagic persist for getting more boost spell which will help you more than the bab you get before you become able to persist divine power.

Example progression:
level 1: pick two good saves(2 points)(or more domains to get more rebuking) pick cleric casting(1 point) pick up fast movement Or the travel domain(the latter is better) (1 point)
Pick up rage(1 point) and pick up turn undead(1 point)
level 2: pick up another turning
level 3: pick up casting
level 4: pick up Uncanny dodge
level 5: pick up another spell level
level 6: extra rage(or a fighter bonus feat so that you can then use the feat extra rage)
and so on

Kaptin Keen
2017-12-21, 08:34 AM
I dunno, I never power play.

How about that part? Literally the answer to your question, part of the post you're asking about. How does that resonate with 'oh, I read the entire post'?


You still are going to be better off dropping your bab to get more fighting class features if you want to be a good fullcasting barbarian.
I did read the whole post.
Having full bab innately is useless compared to getting more good class features for fighting.
For example if you pick cleric casting getting two turning(which is the thing which could replace a character point) is better than getting bab above minimum since with two extra different turning you can use divine metamagic persist for getting more boost spell which will help you more than the bab you get before you become able to persist divine power.

Example progression:
level 1: pick two good saves(2 points)(or more domains to get more rebuking) pick cleric casting(1 point) pick up fast movement Or the travel domain(the latter is better) (1 point)
Pick up rage(1 point) and pick up turn undead(1 point)
level 2: pick up another turning
level 3: pick up casting
level 4: pick up Uncanny dodge
level 5: pick up another spell level
level 6: extra rage(or a fighter bonus feat so that you can then use the feat extra rage)
and so on

All of that is only ever true if you always have time to buff. Or if you're playing a level where you can buff on wednesday and fight on sunday and still be fine.

Please do not respond to my posts. Can we do that, please? Thanks =)

noob
2017-12-21, 09:59 AM
You can persist boosts at level 1 with divine metamagic:persist so you do not need to boost in battle.
Persisting a boost with divine metamagic costs 7 turn attempts and make it last 24 hours.
If you get two turning pools at level 1 then there is no problems with boosting.(if you can get one hour to prepare spells you can add 6 seconds right after that hour to boost no?)
At level 1 a persisted magic weapon is better than 1 bab(you get a boost to damage and bypass dr/magic and hit incorporeal)
Then at level 3 you probably will try to get nightstick to persist two boost spells(and thus come ahead significantly when compared to full bab people).