Mike Mearl's thoughts on short rests vs. encounters

[miburo]

So Mike Mearl's did an AMA on reddit and there was a question that is very relevant for how people might modify short rests:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/7kuzsa/ama_mike_mearls_dd_creative_director/drhd7t2/

Q: "Do you think that the assumption of six to eight encounters per day that the book makes is being played that way in our tables? If not, how would it change the design of the game going forward?"

A: "No, that was a rough approximation. I think I'd tackle it by giving DMs who want to focus on combat some more robust rules for building series of encounters and tying rests into victories. For instance, rather than take a short rest you win a minor triumph (and get the benefits of a short rest) once you have defeated X monsters in a day. That would be an optional rule, for DMs who want to emphasize combat."

I thought this was really great actually. Right now short rests are in this weird spot of "too long to use between encounters" and "too short to not be spammable during downtime" which makes it really hard to balance short rest classes (e.g. warlock) against others. I like the idea of making a short rest something you earn based on encounters you accomplish (combat or otherwise), like a milestone. The other option I've seen is to have short rest "tokens" (basically representing a character catching a breath for a minute) which you can use up to twice per day whenever you want outside of combat.

A bit gamist rather than realist, but still interesting. Any thoughts?

[PhoenixPhyre]

So Mike Mearl's did an AMA on reddit and there was a question that is very relevant for how people might modify short rests:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/7kuzsa/ama_mike_mearls_dd_creative_director/drhd7t2/

Q: "Do you think that the assumption of six to eight encounters per day that the book makes is being played that way in our tables? If not, how would it change the design of the game going forward?"

A: "No, that was a rough approximation. I think I'd tackle it by giving DMs who want to focus on combat some more robust rules for building series of encounters and tying rests into victories. For instance, rather than take a short rest you win a minor triumph (and get the benefits of a short rest) once you have defeated X monsters in a day. That would be an optional rule, for DMs who want to emphasize combat."

I thought this was really great actually. Right now short rests are in this weird spot of "too long to use between encounters" and "too short to not be spammable during downtime" which makes it really hard to balance short rest classes (e.g. warlock) against others. I like the idea of making a short rest something you earn based on encounters you accomplish (combat or otherwise), like a milestone. The other option I've seen is to have short rest "tokens" (basically representing a character catching a breath for a minute) which you can use up to twice per day whenever you want outside of combat.

A bit gamist rather than realist, but still interesting. Any thoughts?

I've actually made "short-rest in a can" a thing in my games. Basically potions that, given a minute or two to catch your breath, grant the benefits of a short rest. These I dole out for times when they'll likely mechanically need a short rest, but the fiction can't really accommodate spending an hour. Works pretty well and lets players save them for another time if they do well in a fight and so don't need it right then.

[Arvin Natsuko]

In my current game, we introduce 5 min short rests, to a max of 2/day.

The party consists in a Palock, a Wizard, a Rogue and a Fighter/Sorcerer.

Everyone seems OK with the result.

[Unoriginal]

Some other interesting answers:


If I create a mighty fortress and recast every day for a year to make it permanent, does that fortress go away if I cast mighty fortress somewhere else? In essence, can you only have one mighty fortress at a time? This would settle an argument with my brother...


mikemearls
Yes, good question for the Sage, but I'd rule that casting it again does destroy the original one. Permanence removes a duration, but it does not affect other aspects of the spell.



A lot of what's been said about eberron in podcasts & interviews gives the feeling that there is a desire to just turn it into a pulpy forgotten realms, but that knife cuts both ways. If eberron is to be linked to Forgotten realms by say... a Lolth's portal from underdark (two things not in eberron) or spelljammer style ships, how much thought is given to the (likely successful) colonization efforts of faerun from the more advanced & organized khorvairan nations likely to make the spanish & english empires look like armatures as they carve up & elevate faerun?



mikemearls

Eberron is much harder to reach than other worlds. There have been some incursions from other worlds on a very limited basis, but otherwise few entities know of it. It's almost as if something has tried to hide it away from the rest of the multiverse...



If you had to redo actions and bonus actions in DND 5E, how would you do it?

mikemearls

For bonus actions, I'd be more prescriptive and just say what you can do in addition to the action. So, for two-weapon fighting just becomes a variant attack action with a prereq that you are wielding the right weapons.



And when designing the Hexblade, was it considered a problem that it would defacto outclass other patrons as a melee-focused subclass, even if Pact of the Blade is chosen?

mikemearls

No, the hexblade is there to make a melee warlock easier to play. It was a concept that you could make work, but in a more convoluted way than we intend for 5e.

[mephnick]

In my current game, we introduce 5 min short rests, to a max of 2/day.

This is what I do. It works for every class in every rest variant. They needed to make the game more gamey and decouple short rests from actual timed resting.

[Sception]

5 minute rests 2 per day is my favorite variant so far, but it doesn't address the issue of varying encounter numbers well. Sure, if your campaign is consistent then you can adjust the number of rests per day, but that doesn't deal with the issue of the numbers varying within the same campaign, such as during overland travel when you might have one or two random encounters in a day but not more then that, then into a dungeon where you might have 8 or even more encounters in a single day.

I'm not aware of any variant yet that does really tackle that situation. Maybe require long rests to be taken in comfortable locations, so travel on the road only gets you short rests? I don't know.

Honestly, I kind of miss 4e in this regard, where per encounter abilities where assumed to be available every single encounter and balanced with that intention. Managing encounters between long rests was still a hassle, but now that hassle's only been compounded, because you have two different rest types that are 'supposed' to have particular numbers of encounters between them, despite there not being any natural way to manage that on the DM's part.

[Nidgit]

5 minute rests 2 per day is my favorite variant so far, but it doesn't address the issue of varying encounter numbers well. Sure, if your campaign is consistent then you can adjust the number of rests per day, but that doesn't deal with the issue of the numbers varying within the same campaign, such as during overland travel when you might have one or two random encounters in a day but not more then that, then into a dungeon where you might have 8 or even more encounters in a single day.

This is exactly how I felt. MM doesn't really answer the question and focuses on more combat focus instead of, as I thought the question-asker was wondering, whether expecting that many encounters per session/day is really reasonable. Most players I've encountered would rather have fewer, more unique encounters per day than 6-8 forgettable ones.

[Sception]

fewer encounters that are longer and more complex can help with that, treating sections of dungeon as single zones, bringing in reinforcements part way through, having to manage some sort of mechanized trap or environmental hazard while under attack, etc. Instead of 6 to 8 simple encounters with one or two short rests breaking them up, you'd have 2 to 3 complex encounters, each with a number of threats equivalent to 2 or 3 regular encounters, with a short rest between each.

The problem with that is that big original elaborate set pieces like that are difficult to come up with for every encounter of every adventure through an entire campaign, and still can do a poor job of managing the balance between per day and per encounter resources.

[strangebloke]

This is exactly how I felt. MM doesn't really answer the question and focuses on more combat focus instead of, as I thought the question-asker was wondering, whether expecting that many encounters per session/day is really reasonable. Most players I've encountered would rather have fewer, more unique encounters per day than 6-8 forgettable ones.

Gritty variant.

Or what I did: Super Gritty. Long rest is a month of downtime, short rest is a full 24 hours.

The whole game had a built in doom timer. The apocalypse was going to kick off in two years time. Made justifying the combat number a lot easier.

Had to adjust some spell durations, of course. Even so, when I did throw them up against a dungeon with three or four challenges (a big trap, two encounters, one social challenge that could turn into an encounter) they would try and blitz through it so that their spells wouldn't run out. Failing that, they'd start leaning on the rogue and fighter heavily.

[Sigreid]

You could always tell the party that the benefits of a short or long rest are now tied to encounters and not time when adventuring. It's pretty ham handed and gamist but it would be easy to administer and take the pressure off. So, after every second encounter you get the benefits of a short rest. After the second fight after the second short rest, you get the benefits of a long rest. Camping and meals becomes a role play element. Doesn't matter if the cycle takes 1 day or 10.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Honestly, as long as
a) you allow short rests
b) don't regularly do one telegraphed encounter per day
c) don't have players that like to stomp all over each other

you can get away with as few as 3 encounters per day. Or as many as 8-9. Or have some days where you have 1 gigantic fight that lets everyone nova, others 2 huge ones with a short rest between, others where you have 10 little ones. The exact number doesn't have as much significance as people let on--it's a pretty flat optimum.

Edit: in my experience, it's the perception of urgency or risk that matters much more than actual urgency or risk. If the players believe you're willing to hang them out to dry if they go too far, they'll stop and rest. If they figure you'll spring surprises on them (or other bad things will happen) if they take too long, they'll press on. Maintaining a balance of the two is important.

[mephnick]

5 minute rests 2 per day is my favorite variant so far, but it doesn't address the issue of varying encounter numbers well. Sure, if your campaign is consistent then you can adjust the number of rests per day, but that doesn't deal with the issue of the numbers varying within the same campaign, such as during overland travel when you might have one or two random encounters in a day but not more then that, then into a dungeon where you might have 8 or even more encounters in a single day.

You need to use the Gritty Variant, make travel/random encounters part of the actual game (as it should be) and make long rests actually take time in a safe location. I use 24 hours.

It's better to look at it as 2 per long rest. You could travel for 10 days and have 4-10 encounters before you can long rest, but still only have 2 short rests per those encounters.

Or you could have a dungeon with 2-10 encounters in one day before you can long rest, and still get 2 short rests.

So you're allowed your short rests whenever you want, individually to each character, but the amount of encounters is still variable enough depending on encouter rolls that the players can't game the system.

[ad_hoc]

I'm not aware of any variant yet that does really tackle that situation. Maybe require long rests to be taken in comfortable locations, so travel on the road only gets you short rests? I don't know.

This is what my table does and it works very well.

Short rests are campsites. Sitting down to cook a meal, tend to weapons and armour, pray or do other rituals, maybe take a nap. Typical time is 2-4 hours.

Long rests require safety from threat. So an actual rest, being able to put the party's guard down. 8-24 hours.

This works better for us narratively than the gritty realism variant.

For a more detailed system you can look into the Middle Earth game.

[Sception]

The problem with these suggestions is that they break on long, multi-day dungeons. So you travelled from city A to outpost B and everything worked fine, you have your long rest at outpost B and enter the Deadly Deep Dungeon. But the Deadly Deep Dungeon is deep, so you can't just leave and re-enter for long rests, and it's deadly, so you can't throw in safe rooms where the party can take a 24 hour siesta without breaking the atmosphere, so your party runs out of steam less than 15 encounters into a 50 encounter delve.

There just doesn't seem to be a good, narratively satisfying solution to pacing both short and long rests in a campaign that includes both periods of sparse combat encounters and the occasional dungeon packed full of them

[ad_hoc]

The problem with these suggestions is that they break on long, multi-day dungeons. So you travelled from city A to outpost B and everything worked fine, you have your long rest at outpost B and enter the Deadly Deep Dungeon. But the Deadly Deep Dungeon is deep, so you can't just leave and re-enter for long rests, and it's deadly, so you can't throw in safe rooms where the party can take a 24 hour siesta without breaking the atmosphere, so your party runs out of steam less than 15 encounters into a 50 encounter delve.

There just doesn't seem to be a good, narratively satisfying solution to pacing both short and long rests in a campaign that includes both periods of sparse combat encounters and the occasional dungeon packed full of them

So the party goes back to Outpost B.

I don't see the problem.

Long rests are a break in tension. If the party takes a long rest they are taking a break from the dungeon. To me it is not narratively satisfying to completely refresh everyone while still traversing the dangerous dungeon.

Just look to any action movie.

In Terminator 2 Sarah, John, and the Terminator flee to Mexico for their long rest. If they were suddenly in tip top shape immediately after the encounter at the hospital that would be narratively unsatisfying.

[Theodoxus]

I've taken to turning XP into time played. As a variant on milestones.

Basically an hour of time played (actual play, not character creation/leveling, 30 minute blocks of Star Trek vs Star Wars or how everyone's week was) is the unit of measure. Then, to level, you need to accumulate an hour for your current level. So, to get to level 2 requires an hour of play. Level 3 requires two more hours, etc.

A typical Session, of 4 hours, will end with the players at level 3, with an hour into their 4th level. If the group meets every week for 4 hour sessions, it'll take 210 hours to reach level 20 - or a calendar year. Longer sessions shorten the time, less frequent meetings lengthen it, etc.

But when the players know that their "XP" is based on actual play rather than what they kill (or avoid) they pay more attention at the table; it's totally within the DMs (mine) discretion to declare time spent as unconstructive - as long as you're not a jerk about it. I liken it to a soccer ref, adding stoppage time to the game; just removing stoppage time from level gain.

So far it's working really well - and the players can anticipate when they'll be hitting a new level up.

[mephnick]

The problem with these suggestions is that they break on long, multi-day dungeons. So you travelled from city A to outpost B and everything worked fine, you have your long rest at outpost B and enter the Deadly Deep Dungeon. But the Deadly Deep Dungeon is deep, so you can't just leave and re-enter for long rests, and it's deadly, so you can't throw in safe rooms where the party can take a 24 hour siesta without breaking the atmosphere, so your party runs out of steam less than 15 encounters into a 50 encounter delve.

Actually, most mega-dungeons include short cuts to the surface, alternate paths and safe areas, or at least areas that can be made safe, so that you don't need to trek through 5 floors every time you want to restock on items. You weren't expected to go through the entirety of Undermountain without ever finding a safe zone or something.

[ad_hoc]

Actually, most mega-dungeons include short cuts to the surface, alternate paths and safe areas, or at least areas that can be made safe, so that you don't need to trek through 5 floors every time you want to restock on items. You weren't expected to go through the entirety of Undermountain without ever finding a safe zone or something.

Yeah, if you achieve your goals and get deep enough you meet the Dwarf enclave who grant you a rest.

If you don't think you will make it to whatever your current objective is, then you need to run away back to town. Time will keep going in the dungeon.

There is a consequence to long resting. If there is no consequence then the correct thing to do is to long rest after every encounter.

[Coidzor]

There is a consequence to long resting. If there is no consequence then the correct thing to do is to long rest after every encounter.

You can only Long Rest once per day, though, even by the base rules.

[ad_hoc]

You can only Long Rest once per day, though, even by the base rules.

Then just wait a day.

[Sception]

Actually, most mega-dungeons include short cuts to the surface, alternate paths and safe areas, or at least areas that can be made safe, so that you don't need to trek through 5 floors every time you want to restock on items. You weren't expected to go through the entirety of Undermountain without ever finding a safe zone or something.

Short cuts to the surface get less and less workable the deeper the dungeon. 'Safe areas' work just fine when a long rest means is finding a hidden alcove or setting up a magic hut to catch a 6 hour snooze with alternating watch duty, but not so much when a long rest requires 24+ hours of rest and recuperation in a safe area w/ proper amenities, as was the 'long rest only happens during down time in town' idea under discussion.

[ad_hoc]

Short cuts to the surface get less and less workable the deeper the dungeon. 'Safe areas' work just fine when a long rest means is finding a hidden alcove or setting up a magic hut to catch a 6 hour snooze with alternating watch duty, but not so much when a long rest requires 24+ hours of rest and recuperation in a safe area w/ proper amenities, as was the 'long rest only happens during down time in town' idea under discussion.

If the party can rest anywhere and time doesn't matter then they should rest after every encounter. Games where the party constantly rest have no tension.

Going back to town isn't as big of a deal as you are making it out to be. It takes all of 5 minutes of game time. The important thing here is that there is both a meaningful narrative break and complications occurring in the dungeon from the party's absence.

[Malifice]

Ive toyed with the idea of decoupling 'resource recharges' from actual resting myself.

I was working on a baseline of 2 encounters [gain short rest recharge], with every 3rd such recharge a long rest recharge instead [so every 6 encounters, gain a long rest].

It does feel clunky and gamist though, and a pretty radical departure from 'rest overnight, gain HP and spells back' which is pretty central to DnD.

I'm currently using a '2 short rest per long rest' cap, with short rests reduces to 5 minutes (quick map check, binding woulds, swig of water, catch your breath). I've placed a limit on healing on Short rests to 1/2 level in HD.

Ive also reduced the benefit of long rests in that they only recharge 1/2 your level in HD (and no HP), which you can immediately spend to heal (with no limit). In addition, you only regain 1 expended spell slot of each of levels 1-5 (assuming you have them, and have a slot to regain) and 1 slot (or arcanum) of levels 6+

It puts the brakes on Long rest classes (Paladin, full casters) nova striking.

I also stripped the Barbarian of 1/ rage per day (he gets 1 less per day than listed on the chart), but gave him a F/S at 2nd level (from GWS, Protection, Dueling and TWF) to make up for it.

It hits the sweet spot for mine.