My plan for a lockdown Rogue.

[Dudewithknives]

Ok this is kind of an offshoot from my previous thread about character decisions, well I made up my mind and have an idea I am liking the RP of and all now I need to plan it out for the long run.

Playing a Rogue in a game that will go from 1 to 20, going Swashbuckler.
Stats were rolled: 18 16 15 15 14 13 (Could end up a hair better actually but long story)
We get a free feat at level 1.
NO MULTICLASSING.
A few feats have been altered for the game.

1. SS/GWM lose the -5/+10 part for +1str/dex instead, not that this matters because I will not have either one, or not planning to at least.
2. Mage Slayer: The Opportunity Attack comes BEFORE the spell goes off, and has a chance to stop the spell if they fail a concentration check to keep casting it.


So here is my plan, and options: Both end up in the same place by level 4 or maybe 8 but will start different.

OVERALL: Taking Sentinel and Mage Slayer and playing as i call it the Velcro Rogue.
If they try to move: Opportunity attack
If they try to hit someone else: Opportunity attack
If they try to cast a spell: Opportunity attack
If they hit like a tank and I do not want to stay in melee, Booming Blade and Swashbuckler ability to stab and then move away for free.

1. Play half-elf: Take Sentinel at level 1, Mage Slayer or Magic Initiate at 4, the other one at 8.
- Longer before getting my full feats in place, but gets 1 extra skill, dark vision and +2 Cha.


2. Play a V. Human: Take both Sentinel and Mage Slayer at 1, Magic initiate at 4.
- DM is fine with me putting both of the V. Human +1's in the same stat so, Both core feats at level 1, but 2 less Cha, 1 less skill, and no dark vision.

So which should I go with, and how can I make this even better past the idea of locking down someone but keeping the mobility option.
Past those 3 feats I really have nothing planned for future ASI.

[Dudewithknives]

I need to learn to be less indecisive... or maybe I dont.

[wthrift]

It looks pretty good, especially against casters. I would be a little worried about dying with this build though. Rouges don't usually have a ton of health/AC, so I'd be worried that after a couple of hits you'd have to avoid the enemies and defeat the point of the build. That said with your ability scores it would probably be ok.
With those ability scores and extra feats it may be worth looking into a more exotic, MAD build. You may be able to get away with stuff that people don't usually write about on the internet.

[Dudewithknives]

It looks pretty good, especially against casters. I would be a little worried about dying with this build though. Rouges don't usually have a ton of health/AC, so I'd be worried that after a couple of hits you'd have to avoid the enemies and defeat the point of the build. That said with your ability scores it would probably be ok.
With those ability scores and extra feats it may be worth looking into a more exotic, MAD build. You may be able to get away with stuff that people don't usually write about on the internet.

Yeah the idea of being in top of people as a rogue can be hazardous, it is mainly against people who want to be out of melee range like casters, other rogues who want to try to hide/disengage.

With swashbuckler, I can still sneak attack even not hidden and things. Or I can go reverse lock down tactics and booming blade the person to hurt them if they move and then move away with no AoO and bonus action hide/dash whatever.

I can't multiclass and the party already has a half orc champion with a great axe so I will probably not be top priority target anyway.

At 5 I will have Uncanny Dodge. Which is solid gold if against someone I don't want to be up on.

I should have feats open for odd things at level 10 12 16 and 19 so I could pull lots of things.

Could take dual wielder because my dex will be 20 long before that.

Tough is never bad.

Skilled is solid gold on a rogue with reliable talent

Resilient Con is always nice.

Honestly as thematic as defensive duelist is, the feat kind of sucks for a rogue, which is one of the best thematic classes for it.


I still want my damn duelist subclass for fighter.

[Quoz]

I'm curious about your subclass choice, since one of the primary benefits of swashbuckler is mobility. It seems that you're looking to get in and stick to one opponent, not do a swashbuckler's hit and run. With your stat array you could definitely pull of some crazy stunts as an arcane trickster.

-find familiar (even a fairly stingy GM should let you buy a scroll for this, don't waste a spell known) gives a great source of advantage since it can take the help action. Also qualifies as an ally for sneak attack. Just have a few extra scrolls to bring it back if you get caught in an AoE. I would probably go bat for a blindsense spotter, or viper if your GM would let you harvest poison.

-with both expertise and self-cast spells, you can be one of the scariest grapplers in the game. Either silence (completely shut down most spellcasters) or enlarge (grab a dragon by the throat, then shove it prone and start shanking). With cunning action, you also can still effectively get your full move while dragging. Since you have a lot of free space for feats, take tavern brawler (maybe even instead of sentinel) for bonus action grabs. with where your AC will be, a permanently prone and grappled foe should not be hitting too often.

-I'm assuming this would cover most of what you want magic initiate for, and probably gets it earlier. would still consider the feat (probably warlock for hex and more cantrip options)

-Pick spells that compliment your playstyle or can help the party in a big way. late game, while you're locking down the casters, throw a haste on your barbarian or fighter to help keep the mooks off your back. Use charms and illusions before a fight to confuse the enemy. And of course, every rouge loves disguise self.

[Mutazoia]

You may want to take a peek at the Lasher PRC from Sword and Fist. Pick up a whip dagger (or whip sword (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Whip_Sword_(3.5e_Equipment))) and combine that with a fighting net, and the Net Master feat....

Net Master [General][edit]

You are an expert in the use of the fighting net. You know how to throw the net to increase its effect on a victim, and you are skilled at controlling the movements of your victim.

Prerequisite: Proficiency with using the net as a weapon

Benefit: A net master receives a number of bonuses when using a net. To begin with, it only takes you one round to fold an unfolded net. In addition, when you catch someone in the net, your victim takes a –3 penalty on attack rolls and a –6 to her effective Dexterity. The DC of the Concentration check to cast a spell while entangled is increased to 17. Finally, you receive a +2 bonus to the opposed Strength checks when you use the trailing rope to limit the movement of your victim.

Normal: Without this feat, the penalty for being trapped in a net is a –2 to attack rolls and –4 to effective Dexterity. It normally takes two rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and four rounds for a nonproficient user to do so.

Special: A fighter may take Net Master as a bonus feat

[Chugger]

Lockdown? Why am I flashing back to my WoW daze?! :smallbiggrin:

Without stun I'm not sure you can truly call it a lockdown build (AT sort of nets you stun - hold person plus that lvl 9 ability that allows you to put their save at disad if casting from hiding).

Anyway, I see what you're going for with this - looks like you could have fun with it.

(owl is the familiar to go to for its flyby ability, but the ones the other poster mentions can work too - but flyby is very very nice)

[Easy_Lee]

I agree with Chugger. The name is misleading but I understand what you're going for.

Two concerns: this strategy makes you likely to be attacked, and you won't maximize dexterity (and therefore your light armor AC) for quite some time. For those reasons, I suggest Moderately Armored in place of Magic Initiate. With a breastplate, shield, and rapier, you still hit hard but have an AC of 18. Combined with Uncanny Dodge, you should be capable of withstanding punishment.

Moderately Armored also enables you to later acquire Shield Master. Shield Master is wonderful on a rogue with Expertise: Athletics, enabling you to shove targets prone consistently and provide advantage to you and your melee allies. It's also one more annoying thing you can do to the enemy.

[Dudewithknives]

I agree with Chugger. The name is misleading but I understand what you're going for.

Two concerns: this strategy makes you likely to be attacked, and you won't maximize dexterity (and therefore your light armor AC) for quite some time. For those reasons, I suggest Moderately Armored in place of Magic Initiate. With a breastplate, shield, and rapier, you still hit hard but have an AC of 18. Combined with Uncanny Dodge, you should be capable of withstanding punishment.

Moderately Armored also enables you to later acquire Shield Master. Shield Master is wonderful on a rogue with Expertise: Athletics, enabling you to shove targets prone consistently and provide advantage to you and your melee allies. It's also one more annoying thing you can do to the enemy.

Ummm I will have a 20 dex at level 1.

The stats I lister were just in descending order, not specific to stats yet.

Also due to an item given at level 1 for having an 94 page backstory, I fight with a rapier in one hand and a custom designed armored scabbard in the off hand that gives me 2 ac but is not consider a shield.

AC won't really be an issue and of the 4 people in the party one other is a half orc champion with a great axe. They can either attack me or the pissed off half-orc and get stabbed in the back.

[Easy_Lee]

Ummm I will have a 20 dex at level 1.

The stats I lister were just in descending order, not specific to stats yet.

Also due to an item given at level 1 for having an 94 page backstory, I fight with a rapier in one hand and a custom designed armored scabbard in the off hand that gives me 2 ac but is not consider a shield.

AC won't really be an issue and of the 4 people in the party one other is a half orc champion with a great axe. They can either attack me or the pissed off half-orc and get stabbed in the back.

I see. Well, you know your campaign and house rules better than I do. It sounds like you have things figured out.

[Dudewithknives]

I see. Well, you know your campaign and house rules better than I do. It sounds like you have things figured out.

I have it figured out til level 4. Past that I got nothing to do specifically with ASI.

[Easy_Lee]

I have it figured out til level 4. Past that I got nothing to do specifically with ASI.

Have you considered War Caster or Mobile? How about Inspiring Leader, or Resilient: CON?

[Dudewithknives]

Have you considered War Caster or Mobile? How about Inspiring Leader, or Resilient: CON?

Resilient Con yes, considering I should have a 15 con to start.

Mobile is great but on a swashbuckler it is a little redundant.

I like warcaster for the use of al cantrip on an AoO, just not sure it is worth it when my only spells will be from magic init

[furby076]

94 page backstory? Links pls

[furby076]

You may want to take a peek at the Lasher PRC from Sword and Fist. Pick up a whip dagger (or whip sword (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Whip_Sword_(3.5e_Equipment))) and combine that with a fighting net, and the Net Master feat....


Whip sword? I literally had to check to make sure i was in 5e forum. I wouldn't even know where to begin making that weapon a 5e compliant weapon

[Dudewithknives]

Whip sword? I literally had to check to make sure i was in 5e forum. I wouldn't even know where to begin making that weapon a 5e compliant weapon

I guess it would be a whip.

[Chugger]

I agree with Chugger. The name is misleading but I understand what you're going for.

Two concerns: this strategy makes you likely to be attacked, and you won't maximize dexterity (and therefore your light armor AC) for quite some time. For those reasons, I suggest Moderately Armored in place of Magic Initiate. With a breastplate, shield, and rapier, you still hit hard but have an AC of 18. Combined with Uncanny Dodge, you should be capable of withstanding punishment.

Moderately Armored also enables you to later acquire Shield Master. Shield Master is wonderful on a rogue with Expertise: Athletics, enabling you to shove targets prone consistently and provide advantage to you and your melee allies. It's also one more annoying thing you can do to the enemy.

Never thought of that Easy Lee! Dayam - shield-bashing rogue would be fun. I'm thinking about trying this - maybe dwarf (don't they get shield out of the gate - don't have my book on my).

OP, Easy Lee's comments still help AL people and others doing point-buy who might be tempted to try this. Starting w/ 20 dex at lvl 1 is like ... come on. Do you have to? I mean sure, I shouldn't sound harsh or critical (and I guess I don't really mean it). I just hope you're going to be taking on some hard stuff. And I do hope you have fun with this.

[MxKit]

I guess it would be a whip.

Yeah, given how they simplified down the whip for 5e anyway, I think you could get away with just making it a whip that does 1d6 damage instead of 1d4, make it more expensive/harder to find, and call it a day. It would make whip builds more viable, too, which is pretty neat. A bugbear Battle Master with a whip sword would do decent damage, would have crazy reach, and could even try to disarm and trip people with it...

[Dudewithknives]

94 page backstory? Links pls

I do most of my notes and backstories and things old school, in a composition book.

I am all tech on character sheets and keeping track of spells, rests or whatever but I keep a journal in character in composition books.