4th Ed. Change of Theme and Genre

[DreadSpoon]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13473454&postcount=6


But my 4E rogue does all that, then leaps over the heads of a line of enemies, waits for an opening when an opponent attacks him and then counterattacks immediately, and twists the knife to create a huge gash in the enemy.


While the other players whittled the enemies down, I was leading them around in a chase across the battlefield, running up walls and flipping over bad guys to keep them from laying down the inevitable smack.

I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.

[tainsouvra]

Wait, so if one of the greatest warriors alive pulls of a fancy sword move that can't be replicated by a random SCA guy, that means the ninja are taking over D&D?

:smallconfused:

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

Um, D&D was already heavily influenced by pulp fantasy- Notably Robert E. Howard and Franz Leiber, so I don't see a problem with that.

Nothing wrong with rogues being able to jump around like crazy either...

[RS14]

Nothing wrong with rogues being able to jump around like crazy either...

I think part of the problem here is that rogues weren't the sort to jump around. That's what Monks and Ninjas do. Jumping over somebody's head isn't exactly stealthy, which is the general rogue archetype. Of course the rogue is flexible enough that you could have a jumping rogue in 3.5; you'd just have a different concept.

[Crow]

Haha! This is great! I'm seeing everything that happened to Shadowrun (when Fanpro released that game's 4th edition) happen to D&D! The genre changed too much in Shadowrun. It just didn't feel like the same game at all.

That's why I didn't spend a dime on 4th edition. Hopefully wizards does well with DD4. It's too late for me to make a choice on it yet.

Aside, they do seem to be in love with Eberron don't they? I never liked the flavor myself.

[Fax Celestis]

Fundamental Rule of D&D: If You Don't Like It, Change It.

Honestly.

[karmuno]

I'm not too worried about this. For one thing, you can already do a lot of this in 3.x, but it's handled a lot differently. There's nothing in the current rules stopping a rogue from jumping over the heads of enemies and running up walls. It's not promoted either, but I don't suspect it will be in 4E, either. He was only giving examples from his game, and they probably aren't all that common (or if they are, it's because they're experimenting with the new rules, and they want to see just what they can do). Also, simply because this is the flavor of this game doesn't mean it has to be the flavor of <i>your</i> game. It's really just more options it seems to me.

On another note, I like the change in magic items. The current system seems too MMORPGesque IMO.

[Tobrian]

I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

My own personal opinions about a 4th edition :smallannoyed: aside... no-one forces your to play D&D! If you want "medieval" fantasy, get the Harnmaster (aka World of Harn) RPG. Seriously, this is not meant as bashing on you; HArnmaster is a good and stable system. Or play Warhammer, it had a functioning skill system long before D&D 3E came around. Both RPG are far more "medieval" than (A)D&D ever was.

I've written pages and pages about why (A)D&D has NEVER been "medieval" fantasy, but I seriously need some sleep right now, so don't get me started on this topic...

Read interviews with Gary Gygax, (A)D&D has always been based off and heavily influenced by not just Tolkien, but mainly the works of Fritz Leiber ("Lankhmar") and Jack Vance ("Dying Earth") not to mention Howard ("Conan"). The whole damn wizard magic system with memoed spells is taken directly from Dying Earth setting!


Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads.

Er, no? My rogue just died exactly that last session. Ranks in Tumble skill and high Reflex save have to be good for something. "Death from above".


I think part of the problem here is that rogues weren't the sort to jump around. That's what Monks and Ninjas do. Jumping over somebody's head isn't exactly stealthy, which is the general rogue archetype. Of course the rogue is flexible enough that you could have a jumping rogue in 3.5; you'd just have a different concept.

So there's only one single concept for rogues: "stealthy"?? :smallmad: Seriously. That's nonsense. Rogues were runing up walls long before Monks or Ninjas did. There were no Monks or Ninjas in AD&D 2nd Edution, for that matter, and assassins were limited to NPCs.


NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

Fantasy literature and RPG have become heavily influenced by Japan animé for like 15 years now, and influenced by WoW for 5+ years. Just look at all the elves with 10+ inch long pointy "rabbit ears" sticking off their heads. Occasionally it looks cute, but it's starting to massively annoy me, since I grew up with elves with Spock ears. These days, fantasy artists stick pointy ears on EVERYTHING that isn't a human, even on dwarves on occasion.


WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

D&D has pretended be "heroic" cinematic fantasy setting, but if I want cinematics, I play GURPS Swashbuckler or L5R. With D&D, the dry-as-dust tactical grid combat system gets in the way. Seriously it's like a boardgame. I agree, WotC wants to make D&D more WoW-like, but they started that with 3rd edition. If all the kiddies play WoW and watch anime, that's exactly what they expect and want out of a fantasy RPG.


It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.

Personally, I like Eberron, as a setting. It doesnt try to pretend it's "medieval". I like Pulp Fantasy, I like Steampunk, I like Indiana Jones movies. Steampunk, and it's relative, "ArcanoPunk"/"WizardPunk" is currently (well for some years now) THE hot genre in movies (Golden Compass), fantasy webcomics (Girl Genius), novels (Death Gate Cycle) and computer games (Arcanum). Other RPGs have mixed tech and magic before, but never this seamlessly.

Eberron with its arcane technology only went the logical path of an arcane industrial revolution.. Magic in D&D has always been there, it's easily available; I've always ranted about how D&D settings espeically Forgotten Realms were bursting with magic at the seams, especially low-level house-hold convenient magic, but there was this unspoken rule that magic was never ever allowed to actually be useful on a societal scale. If it was used in warfare, then only by "heroes", if it was used to ward whole cities (see Silverymoon in the North on Faerun) then only by high-level NPC spellcasters like Elminster. The Eberron artificer, as broken and cheesy as that class is, finally explains where all those funky magic items come from that no normal spellcaster in their right minds would waste their precious XP on.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Am I the only one here thinking that all the stuff this guy is whinging about is stuff already in 3.5? The flipping over guys and jumping over people and all is theoretically either flavored tumble, or dumping an arseload of skillpoints into Jump and Supermanning over people (Praying for a good Jump roll, of course). (It stands to reason that he pumped jump, saying he had a high STR Rogue.)

And the gashing wound? Isn't there something that lets you AoO foes when they attack? And wounding weapons?

The wall run thing is the only one that a 3.5 rogue doesn't normally do, and even then, I'm not going to object. Wall Run is a feat, apparently just with the need for Psionics removed. Besides, Wall Running is nothing I'd put beyond a rogue. It's a great acrobatic manuever for getting across pit traps and the like, and I personally can attest that an average joe can horizontal wall run a good six feet if he knows what he's doing. An acrobat or rogueish type, in a heroic game? That should get up to twenty feet or so. I believe that a wall run skill/feat is all fine and dandy, as long as they prevent doing more than forty feet or so in one go, and it naturally incurs AoO.

I don't object to making it so that Rogues can be acrobats. They already can to a degree in 3.5. This is only taking them a bit farther, so that they can utilize evasion and mobility in combat for once.

[Arbitrarity]

OMG t3h An1m3!1!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEeqHj3Nj2c&mode=related&search=)

Oh noes!

:smallbiggrin:

[Nakun]

Hey, I'll have you know my 3rd edition rogue had a +47 mod in Jump and a +18 mod in Tumble, and was based off of Kite from .Hack, hell, his name was even Kite, and he did exactly that. He jumped at anything that was too high to hit and tumbled around every enemy he could, and fit in perfectly with the rest of the world despite that. I don't think that the idea of an acrobatic rogue should instantly be labeled as a ninja, even if the conception was anime related. D&D has been about crafting characters that were fun to play and could, in a fantasy world, be conceived as a real person. I mean, were all ready in medieval fantasy, how many historic knights could be brought back from the dead by their religiously inclined pals when they took a beating.

I say if D&D begins pulling from different fantasy worlds or concepts, all the better because it will enrich the world over all. And Fax_Celestis was right, if you don't like it, it can always be changed.

[Solo]

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.


That's a rather narrow view of a broad subject.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Another question: What level was this game played at? If it's over 5, it's totally acceptable to me, and if it's over 10, well, what's the complaint even about here?

[Indon]

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads.


High Tumble modifier and there's a Skill Trick in Complete Scoundrel to run up walls.

So, yeah. Rogues can backflip off walls and leap over people's heads (edit: In third edition). In fact, _tons_ of different characters can leap over people's heads.

It'd be nice to have skill tricks. They could even borrow a bit from the maneuver system and have them rechargable. That'd be nifty.

[Bosh]

Well D&D has always been high fantasy, now they're just making it more across the board high fantasy instead of high fantasy magic and low fantasy fighters. For the sake of sanity they had to either smack the casters down to earth or let the other characters do fantastic **** and they chose to go with the second *shrug*

If you want low fantasy (as I do most of the time) play d20 Conan or something. I had a great campaign with it in which I heavily houseruled it and had a game based on the Icelandic Sagas (with about as much magic as was present in those stories). I also want to give a very high fantasy campaign a shot next year and for that I'll use 4e.

[kamikasei]

Okay, seriously, I don't want to be unfair in singling you out here and I don't intend this as a personal attack, but:


...ninjas and aliens and psions... apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

...come on! It cheapens what valid criticism and concern there is about 4e to make every hint that WoTC drops into a "ZOMG psions ToB animeeeeeeee!" Of course they're going to talk up how flashy and exciting the stuff they're pulling in their sessions is; it's viscerally appealing to imagine playing a character with kewl moves, and easier to advertise than ten sessions of deep character development. But it seems a lot of people hereabouts are turning quite mild statements about ability trees based on weapon type, enhanced use of skills in combat, etc. into a phantasmal vision of nightmarish "magic fighters" who shoot lightning from their warhammers and rogues who teleport about the battlefield hamstringing people from above. It's unfounded and it damages your credibility.

[horseboy]

Additionally, the story team has been doing some really exciting things connecting monsters to one another and building a coherent ecology for the world of D&D, and that's another thing that MM5 tried to do as well. So, if you are looking to "preview" 4E, add that book to your list.
I find this very odd. Given that this game is SO generic, how can there be a "the world of D&D"? There's like, what 4,5,6 different settings they have used? Which one is "THE" world of D&D?

[tainsouvra]

Of course they're going to talk up how flashy and exciting the stuff they're pulling in their sessions is; it's viscerally appealing to imagine playing a character with kewl moves, and easier to advertise than ten sessions of deep character development. I will have less of your logic and more of your chicken-little, please. :smallamused:

[Hawriel]

Personaly I hate the artwork in 3.X. It does have a WOW or FF influince to it that I just hate. why becouse i loved the medeavil feal to AD&D. Yes 2nd ed did have one, you could see it in the art alone. A warhammer was drawn like a real warhammer not a 20 pound hammer head on a stick.

My first character was a thief, I moddled him off of Aryl Flynn, Indian Jones, basicly cheesy 60s hollywood robin hood adventure serial movies. He was, and still is, a swashbuckler. He had a the crap kicked out of him alot but I had fun doing it.

So whats rong with thieves jumping around? Nothing so did fighters for that matter. Any one remember the Complete elf, fighter, thief ect books from AD&D? there was a swashbuckler KIT for the fighter and the thief. Kits where PRCs for 2nd ed. Some really powerfull like the Bladesinger. Now its a pritty limp class. Well I think most PRCs are crap.

That is also why im not impressed with the style of the world created by wotc. the kits added to the flavor and consept to a character PRCs are nonsencical and only fead powergaming with bad consept and writing. The prcs I like are usualy the 5lvl ones that add style to a class such as the invisible blade and the devine hammer.

[Solo]

Grammar is your friend.

[Indon]

I find this very odd. Given that this game is SO generic, how can there be a "the world of D&D"? There's like, what 4,5,6 different settings they have used? Which one is "THE" world of D&D?

AD&D monster compendiums had in-depth information on creature habitats, diets, and much more.

Also, I'm pretty sure Forgotten Realms, and then later Greyhawk, were the "Official" D&D worlds.

[Damionte]

Forgotten realms has never been the official D&D world. It's simply been the most popular. before 3.0 there was no official world. D&D was a generic game and you fit it into the world you wanted to play in.

Be that:

Dark Sun
Forgotten Realms
Greyhawk
Dragonlance
Ravenloft
Birthright
Mystara
Spelljammer
Planescape
Midnight
Eberron
Oriental Adventures
Your own Homebrew

or whatever....

Another response to Deadspace.. or whatever his name is.
D&D hasn't as you said earlier, always been about just knights in armor and powerful wizards. Or however you worded it. Alternate stories settings have been an official partof D&D since 78.

[Reinboom]

Yay, we get to be able to do things that have been performed by people in the forgotten realms series of books - this makes it so much more D&D!
Wait, we already could. Right reflavoring.

For some reason, people keep confusing Greyhawk, Planescape, Forgotten Realms, or Homebrew Setting into D&D. I don't understand this. Everything is optional and you can reflavor it.

Also, I already thought 3.5 had doppelgangers (aliens), psions, and ninjas? And doppelgangers have been standard from the beginning.
Actually, AD&D also had psionics. And definately had doppelgangers.

What's new again? :smallconfused:

[Zeful]

I can make a knight in platemail run Up The Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls). It's two feats away for most characters then max out the Jump skill. There instant full-plate ninja. I can also get a barbarian wielding a sword the size of a helecopter blade, half-orc, 18 base Str, +5 to levels, +6 strength boosing item, +6 manual of Str enhancement, with a 35 Str the half orc could lift 1064 lbs as a light load, which means potientially a sword bigger than the buster sword.

I could keep going and point out that in D&D it's possible to play an Anime character. But then it's only a matter of roleplaying if your idol bard swaps personalities whenever he see's his reflection, or a girl that changes to a mouse when a man of the opposite gender hugs her when she's stressed, well that might require some form of craft contingent and polymorph. Changes gender with water? See above.

I could go on about how anime can be expressed with some roleplay and inventive use of spells. Your gripe seems to be about the fighting anime (DBZ, Nartuo, Bleach, Ranma1/2 etc) in which the main character can defy the laws of phyisics through an exersice of will. 3e can mimic ninjas and Cloud Strife through the core mechanics without much effort. The addition of the psionics ruleset makes it easier. I don't see your point, you don't have to play an anime character in D&D if you don't want to, no one's holding a gun to your head as they make you write the character sheet and tell you how to play, so the 'theme' is a non-issue because you can change it. You can make your players stand on the ground and have them hit each other every 6 seconds or you can describe it as something high energy and cool. So in the end it's up to the DM whether the feel is an anime or a novel, not the mechanics.

I'm done now

[tannish2]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13473454&postcount=6





I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.
a swashbucker/dervish(for movement mastery) with boots of striding/springing (commin item, correct me if im wrong) and a decent STR can easily jump over peoples heads
second: obviously you dont know any freaky martial arts people, they can actually do that crap, AND MOST OF THEM ARENT EVEN NINJAS!
third: thief acrobat, class from complete adventurer, need i say more?
fourth: dopplegangers are NOT aliens, thats mind flayers, didnt u read any of the fluff in the abberation book?(the name escapes me right now) and i beleive they were considered so much a part of D&D that they were not released with the SRD...
fifth: i doubt wizards would name a spell series (like summon monster or cure) called genericanimeblastattack but if they did, i would just get a staff of genericanimeblastattack 5 for a ninja.... and have an anime character
sixth: it would be very simple to change things... its called house rules....

PS: yes, ebberon is a disaster, if only for the inconsistancy of airships... why not just make a teleport or have an artificer make a teleport 5x/day item?

[Tor the Fallen]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13473454&postcount=6





I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.

Cry me a river.
If you don't like it, don't buy it.

What's so ****ing hard to understand?

[Hyrael]

I'm a big Eberron fan, myself. I know it's not that popular on the boards here, but I like it. I enjoy Dungeon Punk or MagePunk or whatever you want to label it-maybe I'm spoiled by Discworld.

But, Ive always been reassured by the existance of "mainstream" D&D, which maintains a more old school feel. as long as there's a nice big group of people somewhere playing normal, traditional, old-school D&D that I can also game with, I feel better for it. Dungeon Punk is nice in small doses, but I like it because it's something different, not the core of the game. If Dungeon Punk becomes the standard, core state of the game...well, I think I'd rather break out my pointy hat, bushy white beard, and oak staff, get my reliable Fullplate-Clad Sword-and-board buddy, and show everyone that you dont need speaking stones, mirrorshades, magic trains, or kung-fu to kick goblin ass and look cool doing it.

[Damionte]

........ obviously you dont know any freaky martial arts people, they can actually do that crap, AND MOST OF THEM ARENT EVEN NINJAS!
?

Some of them may have been pirates ! :p

[ImperiousLeader]

This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070822a) does not seem to indicate a substantive change in genre, theme or tone.

[Solo]

Some of them may have been pirates ! :p

But how does the man KNOW that the "martial arts people" are not in fact ninjas?

Is not the true ninja *unknown* to all save his victims?

[themightybiggun]

Well I'm actually excited with what he said about items, I've always felt that its a little cheap to assume that in order to compete at level x you should have y equivalent items. This should bring that awesome magic sword you just found back into the realm of the magical and the special.


This does not seem to indicate a substantive change in genre, theme or tone.

AWESOME!!! Dragons will go back from weekly hunting sessions to the masters of all they survey!? Count me in for that one.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

just because a rogue is acrobatic, that doesn't mean he's a ninja or some kind of martial artist.

i don't find it very hard to imagine a thief bounding across rooftops, and knowing the inner workings of a larger city. such a thief would logically have the ability to use said skills to maneuver his way across the battlefield and take advantage of his sneak attack

[Gralamin]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13473454&postcount=6





I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.
As has already been mentioned, If you don't like it change it.

As for Eberron, It does have a quite a fan base on this forums, we just tend to be less vocal then some of the other groups. Calling it a disaster just seems rather ignorant to me. Do you think they would keep releasing books if no one liked it? Calling it a disaster implies "an event resulting in great loss and misfortune." Neither of these apply to the Eberron Campaign setting, and it is therefore not a disaster, you also don't need to buy it if you don't like it.


Haha! This is great! I'm seeing everything that happened to Shadowrun (when Fanpro released that game's 4th edition) happen to D&D! The genre changed too much in Shadowrun. It just didn't feel like the same game at all.

That's why I didn't spend a dime on 4th edition. Hopefully wizards does well with DD4. It's too late for me to make a choice on it yet.

Aside, they do seem to be in love with Eberron don't they? I never liked the flavor myself.

I don't know where you get the idea of love, but I respect the fact that instead of insulting it, saying that you didn't like it.


a swashbucker/dervish(for movement mastery) with boots of striding/springing (commin item, correct me if im wrong) and a decent STR can easily jump over peoples heads
second: obviously you dont know any freaky martial arts people, they can actually do that crap, AND MOST OF THEM ARENT EVEN NINJAS!
third: thief acrobat, class from complete adventurer, need i say more?
fourth: dopplegangers are NOT aliens, thats mind flayers, didnt u read any of the fluff in the abberation book?(the name escapes me right now) and i beleive they were considered so much a part of D&D that they were not released with the SRD...
fifth: i doubt wizards would name a spell series (like summon monster or cure) called genericanimeblastattack but if they did, i would just get a staff of genericanimeblastattack 5 for a ninja.... and have an anime character
sixth: it would be very simple to change things... its called house rules....

PS: yes, ebberon is a disaster, if only for the inconsistancy of airships... why not just make a teleport or have an artificer make a teleport 5x/day item?

Dopplegangers are aliens. Mind flayers are from the future. (Lords of Madness by the way)

For the Eberron Part:
Inconsistency? Airships are a cheap way to transport items. Teleport items are rather expensive, and an artificer of high enough level usually has better things to do. I'm assuming by "just make a teleport" you mean a teleportation circle or portal? Such a thing would be a very bad idea tactically. This has been covered before in another thread.


I'm a big Eberron fan, myself. I know it's not that popular on the boards here, but I like it. I enjoy Dungeon Punk or MagePunk or whatever you want to label it-maybe I'm spoiled by Discworld.

But, Ive always been reassured by the existance of "mainstream" D&D, which maintains a more old school feel. as long as there's a nice big group of people somewhere playing normal, traditional, old-school D&D that I can also game with, I feel better for it. Dungeon Punk is nice in small doses, but I like it because it's something different, not the core of the game. If Dungeon Punk becomes the standard, core state of the game...well, I think I'd rather break out my pointy hat, bushy white beard, and oak staff, get my reliable Fullplate-Clad Sword-and-board buddy, and show everyone that you dont need speaking stones, mirrorshades, magic trains, or kung-fu to kick goblin ass and look cool doing it.

I agree with you there, but I don't want it in small doses.

[Rasumichin]

Haha! This is great! I'm seeing everything that happened to Shadowrun (when Fanpro released that game's 4th edition) happen to D&D!

You mean like giving the mechanics a much-needed overhaul and making the game challenging again, while reworking the setting so that tech level isn't like mid-1990s with Cyberware?

Or that a near-bancrupt, notoriously disorganized company not giving a damn about the American market fails to publish the basic splatbooks for cyberware, equipment and matrix and therefore makes changing the edition uninteresting for people who want to play more than core-only?

[mudbunny]

I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.Cry me a river.
If you don't like it, don't buy it.

What's so ****ing hard to understand?

You win this thread.

[Telonius]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13473454&postcount=6


Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do.


Actually, sometimes they do (http://saesferd.wordpress.com/2007/07/23/bexley/).


**** Turpin the highwayman was also know to have been carrying out his business in th area. Legend has it that he once jumped over the iron gates at the entrance to Hall Place on Black Bess, the only flaw in the story is the gates are 16 feet high, a mighty jump even for Black Bess.

(Though that was late 1600s-early 1700s, so maybe a little late for medieval).

EDIT: &*($)#@*& Stupid language filter! It is a name, not a swearword! Even the swearword isn't a swearword!:smallfurious:

[Rasumichin]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13473454&postcount=6But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

I started playing AD&D to role-play in a world of barbarian desert tribes, decadent city-states and, well, psions.
Dark Sun got me into 2nd Ed., because it was different from the plain-vanilla fantasy campaigns my group had had in Aventuria (the pseudo-historical, low-fantasy setting of TDE, which is great, but we where looking for something different at that time).

Planescape soon followed (despite the fact that 2nd Ed's mechanics where utter crap in my opinion).

D&D has, for me, always been "the high fantasy, anything goes" game, not the "down to earth, everything should be completely plausible" game.

And, in my humble opinion, it is not well suited ruleswise to fulfill the latter role at all.

The rules are too abstract, the characters become too powerful, the amount of magic required for the game to function is way too high to make good use of the mechanics in the kind of setting you are looking for.

D&D isn't good at being something else than "over the top".
The asumed changes in 4E are nothing but the logical conclusion to draw from this.

If you don't want backflipping rogues, world-shaking magics in the hands of PCs and fighters performing acts on (or, at epic levels, over) the edge of the physically possible, i really recommend trying a different system.

D20 Conan, GURPS and Hârnmaster have been frequently mentioned in this context, i'd also recommend getting some Runequest 2nd Edition or the old rolemaster-based middle earth RPG.

Never would i suggest D&D, no matter what edition, for this type of gaming experience.

It's like using a rock instead of a hammer to put a nail in the wall.

[Overlard]

It's like using a rock instead of a hammer to put a nail in the wall.
And what's wrong with good 2nd edition rock? We didn't need the rules on how to use it to put a nail in a wall, we just interpreted the ones about cracking the back of someone's head open!

The 4th edition hammers will probably have anime ninja powers, 20 levels of elf, 10 of tiefling, and will single handedly destroy real D&D!

[Tyger]

And what's wrong with good 2nd edition rock? We didn't need the rules on how to use it to put a nail in a wall, we just interpreted the ones about cracking the back of someone's head open!

The 4th edition hammers will probably have anime ninja powers, 20 levels of elf, 10 of tiefling, and will single handedly destroy real D&D!

Bah! You crazy second edition whippersnappers! In my day, we didn't even have nails to hit! There was this whole Keep, on the Borderlands, and it was held together with nothing but kobold spit and some rope.

Jeez. Nails. Luxury!

:smallbiggrin:

Personally, really looking forward to D&D4. If its great, fantastic and we can play it. If its not, maybe it'll give us some ideas on how to change our 3.5 campaign. Its not like we don't have enough books and materials to let us play until we die of old age.

[Techonce]

Fundamental Rule of D&D: If You Don't Like It, Change It.

Honestly.

The only concern with this thought is if you are looking at Wizards online play and elctronic helpers, etc...

Since no one knows to what point houseruling will be allowed with that medium or if at all, that is my only concern about flashy rules that a DM may or may not want. I guess it is a fear that if the rules allow too much munchkining and the like it will eliminate some of their "anybody anywhere can now play" with our virtual tabletop.

While I vastly prefer tabletop playing, due to changes in life for me and my players, via computer may be our only way to go, althought we are looking at non WotC programs and the like.

[Gralamin]

The only concern with this thought is if you are looking at Wizards online play and elctronic helpers, etc...

Since no one knows to what point houseruling will be allowed with that medium or if at all, that is my only concern about flashy rules that a DM may or may not want. I guess it is a fear that if the rules allow too much munchkining and the like it will eliminate some of their "anybody anywhere can now play" with our virtual tabletop.

While I vastly prefer tabletop playing, due to changes in life for me and my players, via computer may be our only way to go, althought we are looking at non WotC programs and the like.

Its been stated they will have a "Rules off" mode, for your houserules. I cannot find the source at the moment, but it was on the 4E boards.

[Roxlimn]

Record of Lodoss War is anime, and in all likelihood a better fit for D&D comparison than anything else. On the other hand, The Golden Compass and Van Helsing are not anime and they feature all that running and leaping and generally over the top action people seem hell bent on ascribing to anime for some reason.

Is it because the average Westerner's exposure to anime is limited by the average Western demand for nothing but the silliest ones?

If you didn't know any better, you'd think the term was a swear word.

And it isn't like even 2e D&D wasn't something along the lines of Slayers already.

[mudbunny]

Its been stated they will have a "Rules off" mode, for your houserules. I cannot find the source at the moment, but it was on the 4E boards.

If you go to The 4e Compiled FAQ (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=910164) and then go to the second mention of the word "house", you get this answer about D&DI


Originally Posted by WotC_ScottR
You'll be able to do this with rules turned on or if you want to go gonzo (house rules) have the rules turned off.

[Matthew]

Gonzo? What the hell?

[SpikeFightwicky]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13473454&postcount=6
I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

Ever try not allowing certain books in your game? It can work wonders if your definition of 'D&D' does not include ninjas, aliens or psions.


Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do.

Alright, so apparently Jump, climb and tumble should be removed from the Rogue's skill list... (Or should just be removed as a skill in general)


Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

Get rid of whirlwind attack and dissalow reflex saves... this sounds like a great idea... This kind of stuff was around in 2nd ed., before the advent of anime in the west, but TSR must have been ahead of their time to emulate anime in those earlier years.


WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.

So because a fighter using a longsword may get some kind of extra attack other than 'I swing my sword at +6 attack bonus' that involves his martial knowledge, he's a ninja... Do you have any examples in any of the 4th ed. design discussions that the game is turning into your VERY narrow view of anime? Would you rather fighters run around in loincloths shouting constantly about Greyskull or threatening Thulsa Doom? Where are you getting your definition of what D&D 'should' be? Epic fights and ninja-like skills existed in LOTR, why can't they fit into D&D?

[bosssmiley]

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

Slaine Mac Roth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sl%C3%A1ine_(comics)) - no johnny-come-lately anime manque him - sneers at your blinkered conception of fantasy rogues and warriors. :smallwink:


WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.

Yes, that's right. Fantasy has changed in the past 30 years, and, as a recent Dragon editorial wisely put it, D&D must change with it to remain relevant. The names Conan, Elric and Fafhrd often mean little to gamers brought up on Final Fantasy, Harry Potter and anime, but D&D can help introduce them to those worlds.

If WOTC doesn't bother to do this then D&D will gradually wither on the vine as older gamers put their disposable income into buying toys for their kids, rather than themselves. Do you want the biggest RPG in the world to degenerate into nothing more than a mainly-forgotten retro-game for grognards? No? Me neither.

As I read it 3rd Ed certainly didn't say "Your medieval armsman is verboten! You must play a swordsage instead" (I'm playing a classic hunter barbarian I could have made using 1st Ed. "Unearthed Arcana" right now), and I really doubt 4th Ed will put the kybosh on our playing medieval-style characters either. If you feel it does, then adapt the material!

We are gamers.
We are arch-tinkerers and mental packrats.
We are the guys who know enough about everything from fantasy tropes to physics to mythology to game theory to get by.
We are limited only by our imaginations, and by how we choose to use the gaming materials WOTC offers for our consideration.
Are you telling me you can't re-hash 4th Ed. into something you'll want to play after all? Didn't think so. :smallwink:

As for what you typify as the Eberron 'disaster': "Indiana Jones and Casablanca in my D&D?" How is this anything other than a dream come true? :smallcool:

[Fax Celestis]

Slaine Mac Roth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sl%C3%A1ine_(comics)) - no johnny-come-lately anime manque him - sneers at your blinkered conception of fantasy rogues and warriors. :smallwink:

Slaine rocks. That is all.

[Crow]

You mean like giving the mechanics a much-needed overhaul and making the game challenging again, while reworking the setting so that tech level isn't like mid-1990s with Cyberware?

Or that a near-bancrupt, notoriously disorganized company not giving a damn about the American market fails to publish the basic splatbooks for cyberware, equipment and matrix and therefore makes changing the edition uninteresting for people who want to play more than core-only?

I don't see how the game is made more challenging. Could you elaborate please? If you're talking about character survivability, it is much easier to keep a character alive in 4th than it was in previous editions.

The game's ruleset is much simpler now, but some of Shadowrun's flavor was in the ruleset. Fighting, Casting Spells, Decking, and Rigging, all had a distinctive feel. Now, they are all the same. The only thing that changes is the flavor text. That just isn't shadowrun. In a way, the mechanics help to "draw the line" between "My character is walking through Redmond." and "My character is gliding through the digital landscape of the matrix."

As I said, 4th edition just didn't feel like Shadowrun. Fanpro got some new blood with the 4th edition release, but at the same time, they lost a lot of their old guard. A substantial portion of the community at the dumpshock forums still play 3rd edition, rather than 4th.

As for the setting and tech. Changing the setting is one thing. Anytime you play with a published setting, things are going to change. (Set aside arguments that the "1990's tech with cyberware" was considered by many to be an itegral characteristic of Shadowrun, and actually gave it a distinct flavor) But the setting change with a complete retool of the mechanics just changed too much at once. It just isn't Shadowrun anymore.

[Matthew]

Yes, that's right. Fantasy has changed in the past 30 years, and, as a recent Dragon editorial wisely put it, D&D must change with it to remain relevant. The names Conan, Elric and Fafhrd often mean little to gamers brought up on Final Fantasy, Harry Potter and anime, but D&D can help introduce them to those worlds.

If WOTC doesn't bother to do this then D&D will gradually wither on the vine as older gamers put their disposable income into buying toys for their kids, rather than themselves. Do you want the biggest RPG in the world to degenerate into nothing more than a mainly-forgotten retro-game for grognards? No? Me neither.

Great point that. Not my cup of tea, but a great point nonetheless.

[Draz74]

You want a literature reference? The Belgariad by David Eddings is definitely mainstream fantasy. It's more than 15 years old, reasonably good and popular, and has nothing anime about it.

The main rogue character there, Silk, is an acrobat (as well as a spy). He is nothing like a monk (though he is competent with unarmed strikes) in flavor or attitude. He is nothing like a ninja, as far as "Oriental" flavor or "ki" or whatever goes. (And if you take those things away, there's really not much difference between a Ninja and a western burglar/spy rogue anyway.)

Totally easy to imagine Silk pulling acrobatic stunts like the article describes.

Really, acrobatic combat has always been a popular option for rogue types, because they are supposed to be acrobatic anyway so they can do break-in/burglary type stuff ... so if they're already good at climbing and jumping, wouldn't some of them learn to use those skills for combat, too?

Similar arguments could be made for some full-plated knights making "whirlwind attacks" or similar moves.

[Roxlimn]

Technically, a completely over-the-top Western knight is more anime than an over-the-top Samurai. The Belgariad would be more suitable for anime if only it had several dozens more plot-twists. :smallwink:

[Matthew]

Sparhawk is the guy I always remember from Eddings' fairly dire, but enjoyable, Fantasy.

[Morty]

Sparhawk is the guy I always remember from Eddings' fairly dire, but enjoyable, Fantasy.

Before or after he's got god-like powers?:
Me, I'd be very annoyed if D&D became more "jump over enemies' heads, run on the wall etc." action, but I didn't see anything that'd imply this yet.

[Matthew]

Before or after he's got god-like powers?:

I only read as far as the third book (which was as many as were published at the time). I don't recall that much about them beyond Sparhawk was cool, his faithful Squire bought it when Eddings' wife was in hospital and then some Goddess turned up.

[OverdrivePrime]

To add to the countless good points above, don't forget that western knights and warriors were hardly the clanking, barely-mobile cartoons people sometimes imagine. I've seen a man do backflips, roundoffs and other highly agile maneuvers in full plate. To survive the battlefields of Dark Ages and Medieval europe required more than just heavy armor. Speed is a contributing factor to power, afterall.

[bosssmiley]

Great point that. Not my cup of tea, but a great point nonetheless.

Coming from our resident sage of 2nd Ed. that is high praise indeed. :smallwink:

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but in following one of the 4th Ed. thread I've developed a mental image of Matthew as a gamer version of the Monty Python hermit ("It's..."), maybe with elements of the wilder-eyed Celtic saints thrown in.

"We tried to show him some of the new stuff from 4th edition, but he just screamed abuse and threw dead seagulls and rocks at us, then stalked off to preach the virtues of previous edition houseruled games to his congregation of loyal sea-otters."
"Kinda cute watching those otters try to hold mechanical pencils and work out THAC0 though..."
"Yeah, and the illuminated and gilded vellum houserules do look good."

We have the best saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Cuthbert) (heck, even Gygax pastiches our local heroes) and the best gamers up here. :smallbiggrin:


You want a literature reference? The Belgariad by David Eddings is definitely mainstream fantasy. It's more than 15 years old, reasonably good and popular, and has nothing anime about it.

You used the words "David Eddings" and "literature" in the same paragraph. I know it was in defence of a reasonable point, but I still feel a little nauseous now. :smallconfused:

[Matthew]

Coming from our resident sage of 2nd Ed. that is high praise indeed.

Hey, it was a great point.


I mean this in the nicest possible way, but in following one of the 4th Ed. thread I've developed a mental image of Matthew as a gamer version of the Monty Python hermit ("It's..."), maybe with elements of the wilder-eyed Celtic saints thrown in.

"We tried to show him some of the new stuff from 4th edition, but he just screamed abuse and threw dead seagulls and rocks at us, then stalked off to preach the virtues of previous edition houseruled games to his congregation of loyal sea-otters."
"Kinda cute watching those otters try to hold mechanical pencils and work out THAC0 though..."
"Yeah, and the illuminated and gilded vellum houserules do look good."

I wonder which Thread created this particular (amusing) image? I hope it was coherent abuse. :smallwink: I'll confess, I don't actually use THAC0 outside of AD&D.


We have the best saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Cuthbert) (heck, even Gygax pastiches our local heroes) and the best gamers up here. :smallbiggrin:

Heh, I have heard a few different views about how Saint Cuthbert came about in Greyhawk. I think Dragonsfoot has a Thread about it somewhere. Anyway, yeah, we also had the best Kingdom at that time...

[Damionte]

You want a literature reference? The Belgariad by David Eddings is definitely mainstream fantasy. It's more than 15 years old, reasonably good and popular, and has nothing anime about it.

The main rogue character there, Silk, is an acrobat (as well as a spy). He is nothing like a monk (though he is competent with unarmed strikes) in flavor or attitude. He is nothing like a ninja, as far as "Oriental" flavor or "ki" or whatever goes. (And if you take those things away, there's really not much difference between a Ninja and a western burglar/spy rogue anyway.)

Totally easy to imagine Silk pulling acrobatic stunts like the article describes.

Really, acrobatic combat has always been a popular option for rogue types, because they are supposed to be acrobatic anyway so they can do break-in/burglary type stuff ... so if they're already good at climbing and jumping, wouldn't some of them learn to use those skills for combat, too?

Similar arguments could be made for some full-plated knights making "whirlwind attacks" or similar moves.


AND thier magic was PSIONICS !

[Morty]

AND thier magic was PSIONICS !

Not as written in D&D, I'm afraid. D&D "psionics" is just another type of magic, but with different flavor.

[Devils_Advocate]

WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.
It's funny how the more things change, the more they stay the same.


d20 - in terms of spirit as well as in terms of mechanics - is not Dungeons and Dragons at all, but something completely new and different which just has the "Dungeons and Dragons" logo slapped on it.


WOTC should have had the decency to reflect this by giving their new product line a new name, rather than slapping the old D&D stick on something that's no longer D&D in spirit.

... when WOTC acquired the license and decided to create a new edition, they have decided throw out the game's original feel and replace with something different.

The thing is, I can easily imagine strange, hypothetical worlds in which statements like these made total sense. If WotC released a new game, set on modern Earth, in which the player characters are evil genetically enhanced penguin mad scientists vying for world domantion, it would be completely absurd for them to call that game D&D 4. Moreover, it would be widely recognized as absurd. Some people might decide to play the new game, but no one would use it as a replacement for D&D, or consider it to be such a replacement.

But when they release a new game with orcs, goblins, dragons, spellcasters, fighters, rogues, demons, beholders, kings, castles, treasure, dungeons, XP, classes and levels, dwarves, elves, weapons, armor, et frickin' cetera! -- all (or nearly all) of the iconic elements associated with Dungeons & Dragons -- to claim that this game is "not D&D" is itself absurdity roughly on par with Bizzaro WotC's choice of name for its penguin mad scientist game. 4th Edition is designed to be a successor to 3rd Edition, just like 3rd Edition was designed to be a successor to 2nd Edition. WotC did not just design an entirely different game from the old one and decide to give it the same name. That's obvious to anyone who compares the two. There are many obvious similarities which are quite clearly more than coincidences. In short, the game is such that many reasonable people will recognize it as a potential replacement for older edtions, and many will use it as a replacement. Moreover, it would be so recognized and so used even if it didn't say "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover.

Mabye there was a subtle but very important shift in theme. Maybe one of the things they replaced was what you regarded as the most important thing, the reason you played the game. And if that's the case, feel free to mention it, but you don't get to decide what the definitive qualities of D&D are. If you insist on using the term "D&D" in your own weird, special, restricted way, you're not making a point so much as being difficult to communicate with. How words are used determines their meaning; they mean precicely what people use them to mean. Most gamers are going to use the term "D&D" in a way that includes 4th Edition, for all of the obvious reasons. You don't have to go along with this, but if you don't, you're probably pretty much being difficult about this for the sake of being difficult. If you have any interest in communicating clearly with others, you're already willing to accept the common definitions of words without making your own weird definitions.

That there may also be many differences between two editions does not render their many, many similarities non-existant. How could "same game, new edition" mean anything but keeping some of the old stuff, but replacing other stuff? Of course there are going to be differences between editions! That's (A) the whole point, and (B) what makes them different editions instead of the same edition!

I frankly think that most of what I have typed above is common sense to most people.


What's D&D?
D&D is:
Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma. A pool of "hit points" that increases as you go up in Levels. XP. Armor Class.
Polyhedral dice.
The fighter, the cleric, the magic user, the thief/rogue. The Gnome Illusionist.
The ten-foot pole. Iron spikes. Thieve's tools.
Dragons, whose colors are a dead-giveaway as to their temperament. Fire, acid, cold and chlorine breath weapons. The Owlbear. The Beholder. Kobolds. Green Slime. Black Pudding.
Magic missile. Cure Light Wounds. Fireball. Flesh to Stone. Stone to Flesh. Wish. Charm Person. Tenser's Floating Disc. Bigby's various Hands. Turning Undead.
Bags of Holding. Bags of Devouring. The Longsword +1. Helm of Alignment Changing. Gauntlets of Ogre Strength. The Deck of Many Things.
Picking locks. Finding traps. Climbing walls.
The attack roll, and the damage roll. The saving throw.
Wandering monsters. Dungeons.

I assert that any game which has substantially all of the above is D&D, and that the most important thing that's changed in the last 30 years is US. The players and DMs. The world. The art of roleplaying. The ascendancy of fantasy fiction. The inclusion of women in roleplaying gaming. The body of works based on D&D. Our cultural context. I think these things have made D&D today so much different than D&D in 1975 or 1985 or 1995, far more than the rules changes Wizards has wrought.

-Lep
Now, perhaps it is to a certain extent legitimate to think of the game as having some sort of fragile... essence that can be destroyed even by relatively minor changes. However, I do not think it is reasonable to say that it is WotC's job to transfer this essence from one edtion to the next (presumbly through the use of some sort of dark ritual). Those who prefer 3rd Edition or 2nd Edtion are welcome to keep playing those; WotC's job, meanwhile, is but to produce products that will appeal to consumers. Labeling one of those products "D&D" should not be taken as a claim of successful essence transferrence.

[Sebastian]

PS: yes, ebberon is a disaster, if only for the inconsistancy of airships... why not just make a teleport or have an artificer make a teleport 5x/day item?

Just because there are rules for it in the PHB it doesn't mean that in the game world "it" exist or someone know how to do it.
It is a little like if you've said "dirigbles in late 19th century were stupid, why they just didnt used airplanes?" :)

[Callos_DeTerran]

Y'know what I find curious? That someone would make a thread like this as a statement of fact then never return to defend their self-proclaimed 'fact'. Kinda like creating a pacifist sentient robot, turning it loose in an incredibly violent Amish community, and never going back to see what happens to it. Hey...that not such a bad idea...

Anywho, on topic, whys it a bad thing that D&D is becoming more cinematic? Oh yeah, I forgot, its more fun to imagine a guy struggling to stand in his full-plate and sword dully swinging his sword back and forth with his opponent. Thats much more interesting then two guys in armor darting back and forth with dramatic battle cries, switching their sword fighting technique on the fly to catch their opponent off guard, and going in for the final deathblow that'll have bards singing praise for generations to come.

Also, why does that automatically make it anime? I'm curious, really. I'm an anime fan myself (People who know me will tell you that) and I don't see whats wrong with D&D learning a thing or two about visuals from anime. Granted, I know it's not everyone's cup of tea and I'll respect that but when did anime become a curse-word for...hmm...I suppose the word would be 'westrenized' gamers who grew up with the medieval stereotype? Please. Enlighten my poor corrupted anime-influenced ways oh guardian of fun.

EDIT: That is a rather funny view of Matthew though. God I hope its true so my giggling is justified.

*Callos cannot be blamed for any sarcasm poisoning that someone sustains from this post, but he won't apologize for it either. :smallwink:

[Crow]

Anywho, on topic, whys it a bad thing that D&D is becoming more cinematic? Oh yeah, I forgot, its more fun to imagine a guy struggling to stand in his full-plate and sword dully swinging his sword back and forth with his opponent. Thats much more interesting then two guys in armor darting back and forth with dramatic battle cries, switching their sword fighting technique on the fly to catch their opponent off guard, and going in for the final deathblow that'll have bards singing praise for generations to come.


I hate when people do this and think it strengthens their position.

You could just have easily said something like;

"A wounded crusader, bloodied and battered, struggles beneath the burdonsome weight of his full-plate as his opponent calmly advances toward him. The crusader grips the pommel of his family sword tightly, Drawing on the last of his will and all the power his fatigued muscle can muster. As the two adversaries close to fighting distance, the crusader unleashes three powerful blows upon his opponent, skillfully using his wooden shield to pin his opponent's shield aside as he strikes the weak joints of the foe's armor."

As opposed to;

"Two guys yelling at eachother and running back and forth over and over again."

See, I can do it too!

I'm not the greatest writer, and now it shows, but when you do things like this, you just look like an idiot.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Oh, I know it doesn't strengthen my position any (and its a rather shaky position in the first place) but you didn't exactly weaken mine anyway.

Using the same example I used and you used.

First one: It's static. You know what happens but how it happens is left entirely up in the air. From the player perspective it's simply 'swing, hit, swing, miss, etc. etc.'. Yeah, you can spice it up if you try but it takes more thought and imagination.

Second one: Even with your descriptiveless verison you still have an idea of what is happening. The combatants are yelling at each other and running back and forth. It doesn't take as much work or imagination to put an image in your mind about it. More importantly it has more player interaction. How far are you moving? Where are you moving too? Is there cover to try and take the enemy off-guard? It's not just more attack rolls and then it's over. Y'know? To use some of the stuff the OP was mentioning from the thief excerpt, his character was running up walls and leaping over enemies and yadda yadda. You can still spice it up with nice fancy descriptive words but you have a better idea what happened in the turn and thats all your really doing, spicing it up.


By the way I usually do look like an idiot (usually because of choice but not always) but thats just plain rude to actually talk about it. :smallwink:
Also, your a pretty good writer so don't sell yourself short.

[Fualkner Asiniti]

I'm not going to pretend that this doesn't strike me as awesome. Call me an anime junky, WoW Player (I'm not either...) but my games have chaos. Lots of it. When my players aren't going insane they want to be cool. I kind of like the same thing, thought DMing this group is madness, and makes me want to have a mellow game for once. But with this, my player'll prolly never get bored. Yah.

[Crow]

Oh, I know it doesn't strengthen my position any (and its a rather shaky position in the first place) but you didn't exactly weaken mine anyway.

Using the same example I used and you used.

First one: It's static. You know what happens but how it happens is left entirely up in the air. From the player perspective it's simply 'swing, hit, swing, miss, etc. etc.'. Yeah, you can spice it up if you try but it takes more thought and imagination.

Second one: Even with your descriptiveless verison you still have an idea of what is happening. The combatants are yelling at each other and running back and forth. It doesn't take as much work or imagination to put an image in your mind about it. More importantly it has more player interaction. How far are you moving? Where are you moving too? Is there cover to try and take the enemy off-guard? It's not just more attack rolls and then it's over. Y'know? To use some of the stuff the OP was mentioning from the thief excerpt, his character was running up walls and leaping over enemies and yadda yadda. You can still spice it up with nice fancy descriptive words but you have a better idea what happened in the turn and thats all your really doing, spicing it up.


By the way I usually do look like an idiot (usually because of choice but not always) but thats just plain rude to actually talk about it. :smallwink:
Also, your a pretty good writer so don't sell yourself short.

First let me clarify, I wasn't referring to you specifically as an idiot, and you are correct, that what I said does not weaken your stance. I was making commentary on the countless people who use that particular technique in their arguments.

I can see both ways on this issue, but personally I just prefer ability descriptions to be more generic. Every battle involves tactical movement of some sort anyways! All of the combats in our group are pretty chaotic, like the poster before me. We have people tossing chairs, smashing the spickets off of ale barrels, and all that good stuff. For my group, approach and swing 4 times is good enough; we fill in the blanks ourselves. Yes, we even have battle cries and finishing moves. Not that they give any in-game bonus by RAW, but I DM a little on the fly too, so sometimes they do. We don't have people doing flips off walls or anything though for whatever reason.

I wasn't taking a stand on this issue one way or the other anyways. Like I said, I was just commenting on the method of argument.

[Callos_DeTerran]

First let me clarify, I wasn't referring to you specifically as an idiot, and you are correct, that what I said does not weaken your stance. I was making commentary on the countless people who use that particular technique in their arguments.

No worries mate. Just teasing you is all.:smallbiggrin:


I can see both ways on this issue, but personally I just prefer ability descriptions to be more generic. Every battle involves tactical movement of some sort anyways! All of the combats in our group are pretty chaotic, like the poster before me. We have people tossing chairs, smashing the spickets off of ale barrels, and all that good stuff. For my group, approach and swing 4 times is good enough; we fill in the blanks ourselves. Yes, we even have battle cries and finishing moves. Not that they give any in-game bonus by RAW, but I DM a little on the fly too, so sometimes they do. We don't have people doing flips off walls or anything though for whatever reason.

Not every group is like that however, and those that aren't might need given feats and whatnot to think up stuff like that.

[Xion_Anistu-san]

To the OP,

I have two words for you, from the First Edition AD&D Unearthed Arcana:

Thief Acrobat!

:smalltongue:
:smallbiggrin: