How to get a hang of higher CR monsters (As DM)

[Pinjata]

Hey guys,

I'm a DM for about ten years now, on and off. I have DM-ed quite a few campaigns, but most went up to lvl 7. For quite a while now I'm thinking of DM-ing something that goes way higher in term of levels and thus monster CRs, but I'm afraid i'll play monsters in an suboptimal way. Can you advise me about how to get a hang of higher-CR monster skills and abilities and how to know how to use them properly? Things are especially problematic for me regarding high-INT and WIS monsters, who may have also encountered hundreds of fights before and are still alive today.

How do I approach this, beyond reading the statblock and trying to memorize it? Thanks :)

[Unoriginal]

Hey guys,

I'm a DM for about ten years now, on and off. I have DM-ed quite a few campaigns, but most went up to lvl 7. For quite a while now I'm thinking of DM-ing something that goes way higher in term of levels and thus monster CRs, but I'm afraid i'll play monsters in an suboptimal way. Can you advise me about how to get a hang of higher-CR monster skills and abilities and how to know how to use them properly? Things are especially problematic for me regarding high-INT and WIS monsters, who may have also encountered hundreds of fights before and are still alive today.

How do I approach this, beyond reading the statblock and trying to memorize it? Thanks :)

Have you tried imagining those monsters fight?

Like, think up a story about them vs some adventurers, or other monsters, and imagine how it'd go?

[Degwerks]

Do exactly like Unoriginal suggested, create a story &/or tactical plan if they're encountered in their lair.

Don't metagame in your knowledge of what your players abilities can do. You'll find yourself trying to counter them, which is unfair to not very fun, for the players. Unless of course these bad guys have that knowledge through spying etc... do have generic tactics though, anyone dressed like a caster, then do X, Anyone with a big weapon, do Y, etc.

If the bad guys are smart, try to get them to escape or surrender, if the going gets rough for them. A reoccurring enemy is awesome if you never cheat to get his escapes in.

[Unoriginal]

Do exactly like Unoriginal suggested, create a story &/or tactical plan if they're encountered in their lair.

Don't metagame in your knowledge of what your players abilities can do. You'll find yourself trying to counter them, which is unfair to not very fun, for the players. Unless of course these bad guys have that knowledge through spying etc... do have generic tactics though, anyone dressed like a caster, then do X, Anyone with a big weapon, do Y, etc.

If the bad guys are smart, try to get them to escape or surrender, if the going gets rough for them. A reoccurring enemy is awesome if you never cheat to get his escapes in.

To be clearer, my advice was to imagine the monster fighting people who aren't the PCs.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In my opinion, the "optimal" way to play a particular monster depends on the players. Some want a strong tactical threat, in which case you want to maximize the threat posed by the creature (even at the cost of looser roleplaying). Some want thematic play, where the smart things act smart and the dumb things don't. Others want power fantasy, in which case you have to temper even overwhelming (if played right) monsters.

Basically, fit your play to the players. Unless they ask for it, don't do Tucker's Kobolds--if the DM wants to win, he can win. No matter what. Don't be that DM.

[Demonslayer666]

Hey guys,

I'm a DM for about ten years now, on and off. I have DM-ed quite a few campaigns, but most went up to lvl 7. For quite a while now I'm thinking of DM-ing something that goes way higher in term of levels and thus monster CRs, but I'm afraid i'll play monsters in an suboptimal way. Can you advise me about how to get a hang of higher-CR monster skills and abilities and how to know how to use them properly? Things are especially problematic for me regarding high-INT and WIS monsters, who may have also encountered hundreds of fights before and are still alive today.

How do I approach this, beyond reading the statblock and trying to memorize it? Thanks :)

Set the scene: figure out why they (the creature to encounter) are there and what they want. Is this a straight up fight or an ambush? Determine how much they know about the party, or about classes in general (casters, healers, rogues, and martials). Giving them tactics will be fun, especially if the party can figure it out and adjust to their advantage. Will it be a fight to the death, will the beg for their life, or try to bargain, or just flee?

When I set up a fight, I outline what will happen rounds 1-3, and then wing it after that, but keep the stat block handy and refer back to it frequently when planning your next turn. Even when I try to memorize it, I always forget something.

[DaveOfTheDead]

You could always playtest. As a newer DM myself, my party is getting to level 6 soon. If you are familiar with their classes, you can see if characters of their level could defeat the thing. I playtested some custom creatures for a one-shot and it went fine. Not too easy, but not too difficult.

Also keep in mind any skills or items your players may have. I have players playing as druids for the first time and their Wild Shapes kind of make them damage sponges. There's two druids. Guess who gets to fight stronger things now that I know what they can do.

[MrStabby]

First, kind of not answering the question but still maybe relevant

You don't need to just scale monster CR. Change numbers of enemies, give them advantages of surprise, some one use magic items or similar. This can help preserve theme and continuity with the earlier campaign - use as appropriate.

As an in between step you can upgrade existing enemies. Add a few extra HD, a "proficiency" level and some thematic class abilities. Now you have a elite version of something familiar - again can help tie ins. Add legendary actions and saves as appropriate. In the MM they tend to come in threes but this is not a rule you need. These elites might not be a threat by themselves but they can mark a transition between what you are familiar with and more high level enemies and can be a threat with appropriate support.

For high level monsters I find some are good and some are bad. There is the usual warning that a single monster is not usually a threat. Often there is a bit of an issue for high level monsters in that it is a pretty epic story that can support that number of high level monsters dying.

As you get to higher levels different things become important. Things like mobility and control for the monsters. Any high level monster with no teleport ability or similar deserves to be extinct.

You will want monsters that can survive and retreat from spells like wall of force - not saying it should not be a useful spell, just not encounter dominating.

You might also find that nova abilities become more powerful, especially when an entire party does so. I recommend that you play monsters to reflect this - put them in corners where they can't be surrounded, drag players out of line of sight and use illusions and deception to provide incentives not to blow all resources at once.

Likewise it can be particularly important to keep the adventure day sufficiently long. One level six spell per 8 encounters is fine. One per two encounters is a bit game breaking. I generally expect casters to be using cantrips/at will abilities for about 25-30 percent of the time at these levels.

There is also a change in strategic initiative that happens about this level. At low levels the PCs happen to the world. They chose where to go and fight what they find. They can lay traps of limited power. At high level monsters need to research, track and ambush the PCs. If PCs have the initiative all the time then at this level they can do things like gate enemies into a room of glyphs on the plane of fire or similar.

Of course some of this reflects a particular set of playstyles, adapt to your table. Keeping the game challenging vs high level abilities is very hard indeed. Others talked about playing the monsters - I have been trying more to fill the gaps so this may not have been what you were looking for.

[UnwiseAlistair]

There’s a blog called “the monsters know what they’re doing” that talks about how monsters fight based on their abilities. They’ done cambions, goblins, angels, aboleths, and a whole bunch of others that I don’t have space to list here.