Dip for Crusader

[ChaosStar]

I had an idea for a Crusader of Sharess, but I need to take a dip for extra feats. My idea was 4 levels of Fighter, but I'm not sure if that's the best class. My goal is Tanking with Smiting to help with damage output.

My set up for it was to take the levels at level 2, 4, 6, and 10. That gets me 3 bonus feats which I'm using to get Improved Toughness, Mage Slayer, and Extra Smiting. The normal feats I'm getting are Extra Granted Maneuver(level 1), Chaotic Mind(Level 3), Stand Still(Level 6), Extra Smiting(Level 9, when I get the ability to smite), Insightful Reflexes(Level 12), Stone Power(Level 15), and Extra Smiting(Level 18). This gets me 18th IL, 9th level Maneuvers, and 7/day Smites.

Does anyone have suggestions for improvements?

Previous Thread for this character: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545181-Question-about-reducing-Succubus-ECL

[Telonius]

Are you sure there will be lots of Psionic enemies in the campaign? Chaotic Mind is a pretty terrible feat otherwise, and isn't that terrific even if there are. Switch it out for Power Attack; a Tank without Power Attack is not a Tank. (Stone Power is not a substitute, particularly when you're waiting until Level 15 to get it).

[ChaosStar]

Are you sure there will be lots of Psionic enemies in the campaign? Chaotic Mind is a pretty terrible feat otherwise, and isn't that terrific even if there are. Switch it out for Power Attack; a Tank without Power Attack is not a Tank. (Stone Power is not a substitute, particularly when you're waiting until Level 15 to get it).

Can't. I have only a Strength of 12 until level 8. Plus Power Attack doesn't help Tanking since it doesn't reduce damage you take or aggro enemies.

[Telonius]

There are only about two ways in D&D to aggro enemies, neither of which are really options for you (Knight's Challenge and that gnome prestige class, Divine Prankster I think). The only other way to do it is to deal enough damage to your enemies that they consider you a threat. Power Attack is (far and away) the best way of doing that kind of damage for a primary melee fighter. If your strength is so low that Power Attack isn't an option, you're going to have a hard time doing that. You'll be leaning very heavily on Smites and maneuvers to deal a significant amount of damage to anything.

[ChaosStar]

There are only about two ways in D&D to aggro enemies, neither of which are really options for you (Knight's Challenge and that gnome prestige class, Divine Prankster I think). The only other way to do it is to deal enough damage to your enemies that they consider you a threat. Power Attack is (far and away) the best way of doing that kind of damage for a primary melee fighter. If your strength is so low that Power Attack isn't an option, you're going to have a hard time doing that. You'll be leaning very heavily on Smites and maneuvers to deal a significant amount of damage to anything.

That's the point. That's why I've taken Extra Smiting so many times. Also Stand Still will prevent my opponents from moving away from me when I get in close range.

[Goaty14]

That's the point. That's why I've taken Extra Smiting so many times. Also Stand Still will prevent my opponents from moving away from me when I get in close range.

If that's the way you're going to do, you may as well stop your current build and make something trippy (See: Trip-Based builds). Stand Still will prevent your opponent from moving away, but you're only really preventing 1 enemy since you don't have combat reflexes. You definitely need strength, otherwise you need a plan to get dex-to-damage.
Chaotic Mind? Yea, no no no. You want feats that help you tank, not a minor benefit to certain classes. I would recommend Combat Reflexes. You also need to use a reach weapon, which helps your range for Stand Still. Smiting is also a bad way for damage output, I mean, sure it's +20 damage 7/day, but proper power-attack does +15 all day. Without houserules/homebrew it's also expended even if you miss.

[weckar]

The Goad feat is a thing, I guess. When it works.

[ChaosStar]

If that's the way you're going to do, you may as well stop your current build and make something trippy (See: Trip-Based builds). Stand Still will prevent your opponent from moving away, but you're only really preventing 1 enemy since you don't have combat reflexes. You definitely need strength, otherwise you need a plan to get dex-to-damage.
Chaotic Mind? Yea, no no no. You want feats that help you tank, not a minor benefit to certain classes. I would recommend Combat Reflexes. You also need to use a reach weapon, which helps your range for Stand Still. Smiting is also a bad way for damage output, I mean, sure it's +20 damage 7/day, but proper power-attack does +15 all day. Without houserules/homebrew it's also expended even if you miss.

Except you never hit with Power Attack, whereas Smiting will almost certainly hit. I have a Dex of 10, and I don't have the feats to do tripping. Also Chaotic Mind allows me to ignore all Insight bonuses that my enemies may have. It does help Tanking.

[ApologyFestival]

Also Chaotic Mind allows me to ignore all Insight bonuses that my enemies may have. It does help Tanking.
Like Telonius said, speak with your DM about how likely you are to see the absurdly fringe benefits of Chaotic Mind. It only works against psionic creatures. Additionally, I have been a GM for a long time now and I can not recall a single time when a bad guy or monster has had an insight bonus to attack rolls or armour class. I even GM with psionic creatures and classes.

Telonius has offered some pretty good advice for tanking in D&D. As a general rule, the role of the "tank" only very loosely exists, and it behoves every character to bump up their defences because there are not many mechanical ways to take a hit in an ally's stead. Again: The best way to tank is to stand in the way (though this only works against melee brutes), and to pose the biggest threat of any targetable ally. Certain character builds, like the hinted at lockdown builds focused on Combat Reflexes, can force attackers to stay put which is another effective means of tanking. With a high charisma score you may be interested in the goad feat (Miniatures Handbook, Complete Adventurer, and Races of Stone), but that only works against melee attackers, can be resisted, and costs a move action. It would suck a lot less if it were houseruled to be a swift or immediate action.

I would advise against choosing Stand Still as one of this character's feats, this character can only use it once per round and does not have the best odds of success unless a smite attack is used. The smite ability offered to Crusaders is poorly written and I think it is unclear as to whether a Crusader can smite on an attack of opportunity (Paladins can't, but the text of Smite Evil is different).


Except you never hit with Power Attack[...]
Again, speaking as a DM, tell that to my players. I would dearly love it if the power attacking barbarian would stop rendering all my monsters into mulch on turn one. Ugh! :P


[...]whereas Smiting will almost certainly hit. I have a Dex of 10, and I don't have the feats to do tripping.
Smiting is not at all guaranteed to hit. With a strength score of 12, chances are this character's smite is a little more accurate as a normal attack from an equivalent character that focused on strength. That said, you haven't actually posted this character's charisma score, and their strength score (12) and dexterity score (10) has had to be revealed over time. You'll get much better advice if you post a little more about what the unique limitations of this character are.

A character with merely average strength and dexterity choosing to take up the blade instead of something that plays to their natural strengths can be interesting, and the idea behind the character (from what I can gather) is certainly cool, but understand that you've handicapped the character quite a bit, and that focusing on smite and a high charisma score is more of a band-aid or a gimmick--it's not going to be a strong character build. Let everyone know what your goals for this character are and how powerful you want them to be, and also what campaign or group composition you expect them to be playing in.

[ChaosStar]

Like Telonius said, speak with your DM about how likely you are to see the absurdly fringe benefits of Chaotic Mind. It only works against psionic creatures. Additionally, I have been a GM for a long time now and I can not recall a single time when a bad guy or monster has had an insight bonus to attack rolls or armour class. I even GM with psionic creatures and classes.

Telonius has offered some pretty good advice for tanking in D&D. As a general rule, the role of the "tank" only very loosely exists, and it behoves every character to bump up their defences because there are not many mechanical ways to take a hit in an ally's stead. Again: The best way to tank is to stand in the way (though this only works against melee brutes), and to pose the biggest threat of any targetable ally. Certain character builds, like the hinted at lockdown builds focused on Combat Reflexes, can force attackers to stay put which is another effective means of tanking. With a high charisma score you may be interested in the goad feat (Miniatures Handbook, Complete Adventurer, and Races of Stone), but that only works against melee attackers, can be resisted, and costs a move action. It would suck a lot less if it were houseruled to be a swift or immediate action.

I would advise against choosing Stand Still as one of this character's feats, this character can only use it once per round and does not have the best odds of success unless a smite attack is used. The smite ability offered to Crusaders is poorly written and I think it is unclear as to whether a Crusader can smite on an attack of opportunity (Paladins can't, but the text of Smite Evil is different).


Again, speaking as a DM, tell that to my players. I would dearly love it if the power attacking barbarian would stop rendering all my monsters into mulch on turn one. Ugh! :P


Smiting is not at all guaranteed to hit. With a strength score of 12, chances are this character's smite is a little more accurate as a normal attack from an equivalent character that focused on strength. That said, you haven't actually posted this character's charisma score, and their strength score (12) and dexterity score (10) has had to be revealed over time. You'll get much better advice if you post a little more about what the unique limitations of this character are.

A character with merely average strength and dexterity choosing to take up the blade instead of something that plays to their natural strengths can be interesting, and the idea behind the character (from what I can gather) is certainly cool, but understand that you've handicapped the character quite a bit, and that focusing on smite and a high charisma score is more of a band-aid or a gimmick--it's not going to be a strong character build. Let everyone know what your goals for this character are and how powerful you want them to be, and also what campaign or group composition you expect them to be playing in.

Okay, my character's stats are Strength 12, Dexterity 10, Constitution 15, Intelligence 16, Wisdom 12, Charisma 17.

[GrayDeath]

OK, are you married to that spread?

What do you want to do with that much intelligence on a Crusader Build, if one might ask?

I would, given the concept, relegate the 16 to strength and switch the 10 and 12 of dex and int. Nothing in your concept so far says "profits from high intelligence"....


Also, thirding the "tanking is hard" mentioned above.
Crusaders can do it, but to really fill the tank roll, you either need reach, high mobility or seem such an overwhelming threat that everyone focuses on you.

Hence I'd suggest, if at all, multiclassing to sword sage for a level or 2 and to pick shadow jaunt and it's ilk, and one or two ranged attack maneuvers, and to use a reach weapon.

[ChaosStar]

OK, are you married to that spread?

What do you want to do with that much intelligence on a Crusader Build, if one might ask?

I would, given the concept, relegate the 16 to strength and switch the 10 and 12 of dex and int. Nothing in your concept so far says "profits from high intelligence"....


What makes you think I can change that? Wait, do you seriously think I didn't roll for my stats? Changing them now would be cheating unless I completely rerolled all of the stats.

[Malroth]

If 3.0 is on the table, Dip Factotum for Iaijutsu strike then go into the Iaijutsu master prestigue class, 9x CHA to damage is really sweet especially when you get to use your INT for AC and to HIT.

[DeTess]

What makes you think I can change that? Wait, do you seriously think I didn't roll for my stats? Changing them now would be cheating unless I completely rerolled all of the stats.

So there seem to be two general ways if getting stats that are assumed here in the forums; point-buy or roll and assign. Unless you specify you do something else, people assume you did either of these two.

Now, it seems you had to roll your stats in order, and got a spread that is extremely well suited to a full caster, and rather poorly suited to a melee fighter of any kind. If you still want to do that, then that's fine, but keep into account that most reasonably optimal archetypes (power attack, lockdown, etc.) Are actually locked to you.

Anyway, I'd recommend keeping dips to a minimum, as you're going to need your maneuvers far more than your feats to be effective.

[ChaosStar]

So there seem to be two general ways if getting stats that are assumed here in the forums; point-buy or roll and assign. Unless you specify you do something else, people assume you did either of these two.

Now, it seems you had to roll your stats in order, and got a spread that is extremely well suited to a full caster, and rather poorly suited to a melee fighter of any kind. If you still want to do that, then that's fine, but keep into account that most reasonably optimal archetypes (power attack, lockdown, etc.) Are actually locked to you.

Anyway, I'd recommend keeping dips to a minimum, as you're going to need your maneuvers far more than your feats to be effective.

I used the Organic Characters rolling method outlined in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Roll 4d6 drop lowest, in order, reroll one stat, then swap two around.

[ApologyFestival]

Anyway, I'd recommend keeping dips to a minimum, as you're going to need your maneuvers far more than your feats to be effective.
I agree with this. Just go for crusader 20. I can't see anything gained from a dip to be worth losing initiator levels over, since maneuvers will be the main source of this character's damage output. I am also assuming that this character is to be played from level 1. Losing initiator levels may work out fine at level 20, but it makes playing through the progression suck.

I would talk to your DM about how a crusader's smite works. See if you can get them to agree that smite as implied in the crusader entry is a free action buff, rather than a standard action attack. That will let you use it when initiating maneuvers.

Standard gameplay for this character would be moving then initiating a standard action maneuver, ideally boosted by smite. Use boosts from the White Raven school to protect and buff allies. This character won't have smite until level 6, and getting to that point will be hard. Stick it out--pick the best attacking maneuver available at every level and keep swinging. At level 5 the character will become a valuable ally for initiating White Raven Tactics. From level 6 onwards, I would simply spend every feat on extra smiting, and Always Be Smiting. At higher levels, look for items that improve smite, and the very expensive (but for this character, very worthwhile) slippers of battledancing from DMG2.

As a crusader of Sharess, I would assume this character is Chaotic Good. So I would spend the one available feat (at level 3) on Avenging Strike, from Tome of Battle, for an additional pseudo-smite versus evil outsiders.

CG Succubus Crusader 20
Feats: Extra Granted Maneuver, Avenging Strike, Extra Smiting x5
Edit: Skills: Leverage the character's high INT by maximising Diplomacy and Intimidate. Use the skilled city-dweller alternate class feature from Cityscape (web expansion) to trade Ride for Tumble, and maximise Tumble along with the synergy bonus from Jump to ensure the character can always safely move.

[ChaosStar]

I agree with this. Just go for crusader 20. I can't see anything gained from a dip to be worth losing initiator levels over, since maneuvers will be the main source of this character's damage output. I am also assuming that this character is to be played from level 1. Losing initiator levels may work out fine at level 20, but it makes playing through the progression suck.

I would talk to your DM about how a crusader's smite works. See if you can get them to agree that smite as implied in the crusader entry is a free action buff, rather than a standard action attack. That will let you use it when initiating maneuvers.

Standard gameplay for this character would be moving then initiating a standard action maneuver, ideally boosted by smite. Use boosts from the White Raven school to protect and buff allies. This character won't have smite until level 6, and getting to that point will be hard. Stick it out--pick the best attacking maneuver available at every level and keep swinging. At level 5 the character will become a valuable ally for initiating White Raven Tactics. From level 6 onwards, I would simply spend every feat on extra smiting, and Always Be Smiting. At higher levels, look for items that improve smite, and the very expensive (but for this character, very worthwhile) slippers of battledancing from DMG2.

As a crusader of Sharess, I would assume this character is Chaotic Good. So I would spend the one available feat (at level 3) on Avenging Strike, from Tome of Battle, for an additional pseudo-smite versus evil outsiders.

CG Succubus Crusader 20
Feats: Extra Granted Maneuver, Avenging Strike, Extra Smiting x5
Edit: Skills: Leverage the character's high INT by maximising Diplomacy and Intimidate. Use the skilled city-dweller alternate class feature from Cityscape (web expansion) to trade Ride for Tumble, and maximise Tumble along with the synergy bonus from Jump to ensure the character can always safely move.

But without the 4 levels of Fighter I lose out on 3 Feats. With so many Extra Smitings I also lose out on Stand Still, Mage Slayer, and Chaotic Mind. That stops me from preventing the movement of enemies that are close to me, stops my ability to prevent enemy magic users from casting defensively, and renders me vulnerable to anything that has Insight Bonuses. Not to mention Improved Toughness, which I always have melee characters take.

Not taking Stone Power does mean I don't need to put level up points in Strength and can put them in Charisma instead. Besides, with 4 levels of Fighter I'm only 2 Initiator levels behind a pure Crusader, since non-Initiator classes give 1/2 an Initiator Level.

[GrayDeath]

What makes you think I can change that? Wait, do you seriously think I didn't roll for my stats? Changing them now would be cheating unless I completely rerolled all of the stats.


So there seem to be two general ways if getting stats that are assumed here in the forums; point-buy or roll and assign. Unless you specify you do something else, people assume you did either of these two.

Now, it seems you had to roll your stats in order, and got a spread that is extremely well suited to a full caster, and rather poorly suited to a melee fighter of any kind. If you still want to do that, then that's fine, but keep into account that most reasonably optimal archetypes (power attack, lockdown, etc.) Are actually locked to you.

Anyway, I'd recommend keeping dips to a minimum, as you're going to need your maneuvers far more than your feats to be effective.


I used the Organic Characters rolling method outlined in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Roll 4d6 drop lowest, in order, reroll one stat, then swap two around.

OK given that you are playing a fully homebrewed Character I of course assuumed you were using one of the more optimized ways to build one.
As a general hint if you ask for help it REALLY helps us in helping you if you give us as much info about yor setup as possible.

Now mind to answer how you ended up on that spread as even the reroll one swap 2 method offers enough freedom to assign them in a way more melee friendly?

I also stand by my Swordsage suggestion. You NEED reach/mobility to tank successfully.
What you likely do not need is so many smites. There are enough maneuvers that allow huge bonus damage, so that the main need for strength is to hit bonus which you can add via enchantments easily, if you still want/need to stay to these attributes. However given your rather diffiult concept I for one would ask the DM to allow either PB or a reroll. Its not as if you are building a caster after all ).

Edit: As for the fighter Dip: yes i you really needed the feats,that would be a OK trade fo them.
Again check out all martial Disciplines there are some maneuvers that will allow you to avoid neding wuite that many feats.

[ApologyFestival]

Losing four fighter levels loses three feats, yes, but ask what you're actually getting out of those three feats. Then, consider what you could instead have for four levels of class features. Fighter is widely regarded as a poor class for a reason, and feats are often overvalued.

Chaotic Mind is so edge-case in function that it only has any real use in a dedicated psion-killer build. Probably a feat best reserved for NPCs built to combat illithids and their ilk. Very campaign-specific. Think long and hard on why you want this and how likely you are to ever see any benefit from it.

Improved Toughness adds a small (but, eventually, appreciable) amount hit points. It either saves the character's life or it does absolutely nothing at all for the entirety of the campaign--it's very binary, in that sense. I personally think this is a poor feat and best reserved for monsters, but unlike Chaotic Mind I can see how others can find it worthwhile.

Mage Slayer is a great feat. However, its best uses are as the entry point for a good feat tree and to expand the number of provoking actions on a dedicated lockdown build, which this crusader is not. For this character, Mage Slayer would be best used to prevent spellcasters from casting defensively so that an ally can take an attack of opportunity against them, so its use is party and tactics-dependent. Spellcasters may choose to just suck up the attack of opportunity without a care, confident that their defenses can take it. They may just five-foot step to safety unless you have Thicket of Blades as your active stance. They might just Tumble away. Or, an ally might provoke the one attack of opportunity you are afforded for them. Note that swift action spells, often used by mages to reposition or improve their defenses, never provoke an attack of opportunity. Mage Slayer does not absolutely prevent casting defensively and totally own mages--there are ways around it.

Stand Still adds a tactical option that I unfortunately can't see being much use. This crusader can only attempt to stop one enemy's movement per turn, and that prevents an attack of opportunity (the damage may be more valuable than stopping movement). Stand Still does nothing if the attempt misses, does not deal ample damage to force a failed saving throw, or if the enemy wasn't planning on moving in the first place. The enemies you most want to protect your allies from (full attack monsters) will not be wishing to move away from you anyway (unless they are all hydras), because they want to full attack every round. Again, Stand Still does not absolutely prevent movement. In this particular character build, its value seems limited.

Looking only at the first six levels, class features (can) get White Raven Tactics at 5th level, smite at 6th level, Revitalising Strike also at 6th level to add solid healing into the mix, and other fringe benefits like steely resolve progression. If it helps, you can try making character snapshots at various levels and compare what a straight crusader might have compared to what those feats grant, and think "Which of these two would I rather have, at that level?" Doing the whole thought exercise in a post is a bit much, but at a glance at every single level the straight crusader wins. In my opinion, at least.

[Malroth]

Honestly, for your stat spread, the tankiest build is probably Stalwart Battle sorcerer with Fey Mysteries Initate who polymorphs into something big and scary.