Casting stat rearrangement

[zylodrizzt]

I've been thinking about casting stats lately and wonder I g if it would be overpowered to change them around for other classes to possibly make more sense or just for individual characters with reasoning behind it.

Some examples I suppose may be in order.

Cleric= charisma
Reasoning: the cleric appeals to his diety for power and tries to attract followers to the faith.

Sorcerer=wis
Reasoning= wisdom is like intuition and perceptive and seems to be the highest used stat when it comes to spells that effect controlling your own actions. Sorcerers have to control thier powers. They know it inntuitively. They Can force spells to do as they wish (metamagic). Idk just seems like a more appropriate stat Instead of how likeable they are.

Warlock=int
Reasoning= ok so yes charisma makes sense however they still gotta study this would be case by case of course.

Bards=int
Reasoning= same as warlock

Mystic=wis
Reasoning= same as sorc. (yes I know ua and yes I imagine others disagree with it being a class but none the less it is coming)

There are of course Some lesser casters but not sure about changing them. The only one I might consider would be ranger but not exactly sure to what because I'm not sure if it's innate or deity related or study.

So what sort of effects would this have in game?
What else would have to change about the classes? (Example: sorc would have to change skill sets or save sets?)
Would you allow it case by case?
Any other thoughts?

[MrStabby]

I allow players to pick. I do swap round saves to match so casters still only have one "strong" save but casting stat remains a save they are proficient in. I do not allow this to support multiclassing into other casters though. So no cleric wizards based off the same casting stat.

I also allow spell lists to swap round (other than wizard) and will make adjustments as needed to make them work (say allowing agonising/repelling blast to work on sacred flame).

[clash]

Personally I think it makes sense to base it off of the skill that best represents their powers:

Cleric:
Religion: Int
Reasoning: Clerics arent just some joe nobody who prays to a god and gets rewarded with superpowers. These are theologians who know religion well. Know the rituals and customs of the religion that must be upheld. Casting is about calling on the gods power, its about doing it right. Otherwise anyone could do it.

Wizard:
Arcana: Int
Reasoning: As explained in phb.

Bard:
Perform: Cha
Reasoning: To me this makes sense their magic is dependent on their performance.

Warlock:
Persuasion or Deception: Cha
Reasoning: You are either stealing the powers or making a deal to get them. You dont "sell your soul" so you can learn how to study magic, you do it as a shortcut to get the magic.

Sorcerer:
Insight: Wis
Reasoning: I agree with you here. This should be about knowing yourself and your insights looking inward.

Druid:
Nature would be the obvious choice but int certainly doesn't fit the bill here. I dont see a druid as the studious type so instead.
Animal Handling: Wis
Reasoning: Druids dont gain their powers by reading about nature they gain it by being part of it. By how well they are in tune with the natural beasts of the forest, which fits well with wildshape as well.

Ranger:
Survival: Wis
Reasoning: Rangers gain their power from knowing the world around them and drawing on it.

Paladin:
Insight or Persuasion: Wis or Cha
Reasoning: They gain there power through force of conviction which is either akin to the sorcerer, or related to the strength of their personality.

Eldritch Knight:
Arcana: Int
Reasoning: Eldritch knights gain their power through the careful study of magic.

Arcane Trickster:
Deception: Cha
Reasoning: They are tricksters, need I say more.

This gives the following distribution:
Int: 2 full casters, 1 third caster
Cha: 2 full caster, Possibly 1 half caster and 1 third caster
Wis: 2 full casters, 1 half caster, and possibly a second half caster.

[Potato_Priest]

I 100% agree on the sorcerer->wis thing. Monks are wisdom, and they're all about knowing the magic of their own body. I don't see why sorcerers would be any different.

[ZZTRaider]

Well, remember that Charisma isn't just how likeable you are, it's your force of personality. You can have high Charisma but still be generally hated.

Essentially, the Sorcerer is Charisma-based because she asserts her will on the universe around her... and the universe complies. It's not because she has some deep insight and understanding into the way the universe works the way a Monk has an understanding into their own body and how their ki flows. Instead, her force of will is so strong that when it comes into conflict with the natural order, the natural order is the one to bend first. She casts a spell in much the same way that you or I bend our knees; we may or may not know the details of exactly how our nerves, muscles, and tendons all work together to make it happen, or even explicitly think "I want to bend my knees now", but when we want it to happen, it happens.

[lunaticfringe]

Sure why not? Most of the effects would be lateral. Players will focus on different skills when they play classes. A Sorcerer will probably grab insight instead of persuasion while a Cleric will take the classic Cha Face skills.

The only change that might tip the game balance is that Sorcerers get proficiency in 2 common saves right out of the gate. But that is minor at best imho.

[Sception]

I like int based warlocks myself. Their fluff is all about forbidden lore and dark secrets, and to me that screams 'int' more than 'cha', thematically. and once their pact is made, they don't individually bargain for new powers or anything. And even if they were, thematically bargaining can easily be as much about out-witting as out-bluffing.

Cha isn't a terrible fit, but int just seems a bit better. The skills it would encourage - arcana, religion, history - seem a better fit to me than than persuasion and performance. And it would change up multiclassing by making warlocks fit better with wizards and eldritch knights rather than sorcerers and paladins, and that just seems to fit better thematically, too.

Wizards are always looking for more forbidden secrets. Deals with dangerous outsiders is just one more source of valuable lore and information. On the other hand sorcerers have innate, in-born power, why should they need to beg it from someone else? And paladins already have a divine connection to whatever their source of power is, and a demanding code they must follow to maintain it, so adding yet another supernatural master with their own, probably conflicting demands seems like more hassle than its worth, while an eldritch knight wouldn't be putting their existing power source at risk by pursuing a power source that comes with additional obligations.

[lunaticfringe]

Oh yeah. I would make it an Option open to all players. Changes that effect the feel of classes will not make everyone happy. Don't force your vision of how things work on everyone when it's just as easy to allow people to choose. Some will like the Wisdom Sorcerer for their character others will be disappointed they can no longer be a Slick Talking Spellslinger.

[Naanomi]

I played under a GM who had Chain-Locks Charisma Based, Tome-Locks Intelligence Based, and Blade-Locks Constitution Based

[Sception]

Constitution-based! Ha! Now there's a bladelock fix for you.

If you were going to split locks based on subclass, I'd do it on the patron rather than the pact boon, though. For one, the patron actually shows up at level one, and some warlocks might not even want to decide on a pact boon until level three.

Maybe:

Int: Fiend, Star
Wis: Celestial, Raven Queen*
Cha: Fey, Hexblade
Con: undying

*Make the pet raven just grant expertise in perception when perched on your shoulder, instead of adding cha to your perception checks.

Being a (the) Con-based caster would give Undying something meaty to make it worth considering, despite its lackluster subclass features. And, of course, my ever-echoing refrain when it comes to warlock homebrew changes: take 'hex warrior' out of Hexblade, and make it part of the Pact Blade level 3 feature.

[Naanomi]

His explanation was that chainlocks bargained or continue to ‘wheel-and-deal’ for their abilities; Tomelocks were either taught by or studied their patron, and bladelocks had their powers ‘awakened’ superhero style... gensai use CON casting for their racial spells already

[Talamare]

It's also how Warlocks were designed in 4e, it made sense and was fairly balanced... but now we are stuck with the broken Hexblade.

[Talamare]

Personally I think it makes sense to base it off of the skill that best represents their powers:

Cleric:
Religion: Int
Reasoning: Clerics arent just some joe nobody who prays to a god and gets rewarded with superpowers. These are theologians who know religion well. Know the rituals and customs of the religion that must be upheld. Casting is about calling on the gods power, its about doing it right. Otherwise anyone could do it.

Wizard:
Arcana: Int
Reasoning: As explained in phb.

Bard:
Perform: Cha
Reasoning: To me this makes sense their magic is dependent on their performance.

Warlock:
Persuasion or Deception: Cha
Reasoning: You are either stealing the powers or making a deal to get them. You dont "sell your soul" so you can learn how to study magic, you do it as a shortcut to get the magic.

Sorcerer:
Insight: Wis
Reasoning: I agree with you here. This should be about knowing yourself and your insights looking inward.

Druid:
Nature would be the obvious choice but int certainly doesn't fit the bill here. I dont see a druid as the studious type so instead.
Animal Handling: Wis
Reasoning: Druids dont gain their powers by reading about nature they gain it by being part of it. By how well they are in tune with the natural beasts of the forest, which fits well with wildshape as well.

Ranger:
Survival: Wis
Reasoning: Rangers gain their power from knowing the world around them and drawing on it.

Paladin:
Insight or Persuasion: Wis or Cha
Reasoning: They gain there power through force of conviction which is either akin to the sorcerer, or related to the strength of their personality.

Eldritch Knight:
Arcana: Int
Reasoning: Eldritch knights gain their power through the careful study of magic.

Arcane Trickster:
Deception: Cha
Reasoning: They are tricksters, need I say more.

This gives the following distribution:
Int: 2 full casters, 1 third caster
Cha: 2 full caster, Possibly 1 half caster and 1 third caster
Wis: 2 full casters, 1 half caster, and possibly a second half caster.

This feels by far the most logical setup. It has always bothered to know how stupid the Clerics were despite the fact that in ancient times Clerics would be one of the most intelligent people in the city. Having a wealth of knowledge from philosophers that came before them.

[Daphne]

Cleric:
Religion: Int
Reasoning: Clerics arent just some joe nobody who prays to a god and gets rewarded with superpowers. These are theologians who know religion well. Know the rituals and customs of the religion that must be upheld. Casting is about calling on the gods power, its about doing it right. Otherwise anyone could do it.



Wrong, not all Clerics are priests, as page 56 from the PHB says:


HEALERS AND WARRIORS

Divine magic, as the name suggests, is the power of
the gods, flowing from them into the world. Clerics are
conduits for that power, manifesting it as miraculous
effects. The gods don't grant this power to everyone who
seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling.

Harnessing divine magic doesn't rely on study or
training. A cleric might learn formulaic prayers and
ancient rites, but the ability to cast cleric spells relies on
devotion and an intuitive sense of a deity's wishes.

Clerics combine the helpful magic of healing and
inspiring their allies with spells that harm and hinder
foes. They can provoke awe and dread, lay curses of
plague or poison, and even call down liames from heaven
to consume their enemies. For those evildoers who will
benefit most from a mace to the head, clerics depend on
their combat training to let them wade into melee with
the power of the gods on their side.

[JellyPooga]

Int: Warlock, Cleric, EK/AT
- Warlocks research their patron, Clerics study their deity and EK/ATs learn through rote repetition of their art.

Wis: Wizard, Druid, Ranger
- Wizards understand the underlying principles of magic, Druids and Rangers intuit the secrets of nature.

Cha: Sorcerer, Bard, Paladin
- Sorcerers and Paladins enforce their will on reality through pure force of personality. Bards...well, Bards music; 'nuff said.

If I were reassigning casting stats, that's the way I'd lay them out. One "arcanist", one "support" and (roughly) even spread of half-caster per stat.

[Arcangel4774]

This feels by far the most logical setup. It has always bothered to know how stupid the Clerics were despite the fact that in ancient times Clerics would be one of the most intelligent people in the city. Having a wealth of knowledge from philosophers that came before them.

I agree, i mean have you seen how many seemingly arbitrary rules different religions have that turned out to basically be just good health practices?

[Millstone85]

Sorcerer=wis
Reasoning= wisdom is like intuition and perceptive and seems to be the highest used stat when it comes to spells that effect controlling your own actions. Sorcerers have to control thier powers. They know it inntuitively. They Can force spells to do as they wish (metamagic). Idk just seems like a more appropriate stat Instead of how likeable they are.I remember a discussion on the nature of checks and saves, which left me with the impression that:
* Wis check = awareness of your surroundings and other creatures.
* Wis save = awareness of yourself, including telepathic intrusions.
* Cha check = influence over other creatures, your plain old charisma.
* Cha save = influence over yourself, a.k.a. self-control or willpower.

If we let saves guide the choice of spellcasting abilty, then I would say that sorcerers are less about unearthing their inner power than asserting their will on it. Indeed, the power "wants" to come out, and is said to do so uncontrollably when ignored for a long time. You know, ♬ this swirling storm inside, couldn't keep it in, Heaven knows I've tried ♬. Sorry.

So I would keep sorcerers as Cha casters.

[Greywander]

I allow players to pick. I do swap round saves to match so casters still only have one "strong" save but casting stat remains a save they are proficient in. I do not allow this to support multiclassing into other casters though. So no cleric wizards based off the same casting stat.

I also allow spell lists to swap round (other than wizard) and will make adjustments as needed to make them work (say allowing agonising/repelling blast to work on sacred flame).
Not sure why you don't allow multiclassing with this setup. RAW, some casters synergize and some do not; I don't see how it would be unbalanced to make them all potentially synergize.

When it comes down to it, there isn't really any mechanical different between INT, WIS, and CHA casters. It's not like the difference between STR and DEX that martials have. The only real difference is which skills they get bonuses to, and all three mental ability scores provide comparable skills.

Thematically, here's how I see it and how I would divvy it up:

INT - Bard, Cleric, Warlock, Wizard
Intelligence based casters learn their magic through study and academic knowledge. The connection to wizards is obvious, but this could also be reasonable for bards (esp. Lore), clerics (esp. Knowledge), and warlocks (esp. Great Old One, Pact of the Tome).

WIS - Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer
Wisdom based casters gain their magic gaining a greater understanding of both themselves and the world. For religious casters, this includes gaining a better understanding of you god's will and being able to live that out. Basically, your god grants you power because you're super righteous. The only odd one out here is the sorcerer, but one could see how this would thematically apply to sorcerers (esp. Draconic, Divine Soul, and Storm).

CHA - Bard, Druid, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock
Charisma based casters cast spells through sheer force of will. In many ways this could represent innate magic that the character may not fully understand, but, whether intuitively or by repeated practice, they are able to cast reliably. They don't know or care how or why they can cast spells, nor does their power come from someone else (like a god), but from within them. Under this reasoning, warlocks actually stand out a bit, but I would say that these types of warlocks bargained for power, which was then granted to them, becoming innate. Druid also stands out, but you could think of them as being sort of like Nature paladins, who derive their spellcasting through sheer force of belief in their own cause (really I just wanted a cleric/druid in each list, just like there's a wizard/sorcerer in each list).

You'll notice with this list that several classes appear more than once, but no single class appears on all three lists. This gives players more choices while still keeping some restrictions. Personally, though, I'd probably just let players choose whatever they wanted.

[CircleOfTheRock]

Int: Warlock, Cleric, EK/AT
- Warlocks research their patron, Clerics study their deity and EK/ATs learn through rote repetition of their art.

Wis: Wizard, Druid, Ranger
- Wizards understand the underlying principles of magic, Druids and Rangers intuit the secrets of nature.

Cha: Sorcerer, Bard, Paladin
- Sorcerers and Paladins enforce their will on reality through pure force of personality. Bards...well, Bards music; 'nuff said.

If I were reassigning casting stats, that's the way I'd lay them out. One "arcanist", one "support" and (roughly) even spread of half-caster per stat.
While I (on the whole) agree I have a little quibble: Paladins don't enforce their will on reality; through the strength of their belief in the tenets of their oath do they gain their power.

[Talamare]

Wrong, not all Clerics are priests, as page 56 from the PHB says:

It's kinda of hard to go by the lore of DnD when they are trying to fluff it in a way specifically that would make sense for their current setup.

Basically, it's written that way, because the rules are that way.
So if the rules are different, they would fluff it so that the new way makes sense instead.

[Arkhios]

Probably said already, but I'll echo: charisma is more than just your 'likeability'.

It has nothing to do with your appearance.

It's best described as your 'Force of Personality'

[Talamare]

Probably said already, but I'll echo: charisma is more than just your 'likeability'.

It has nothing to do with your appearance.

It's best described as your 'Force of Personality'

Which is why a lot of people believe Paladins belong in Charisma
They gain their power thru their conviction

Which is also why Sorcerers are questionable as Charisma based
Their powers aren't necessarily tied to have a strong Force of Personality.

If your Father had Dragon in his blood, then you would have Sorcerer powers. Regardless of if you're timid or not.
If you're born on a magical leyline... Sorcerer Powers!
If you were randomly touched by a Demon or a Fae at birth... Sorcerer Powers!
If for no reason at all, magic decides to infuse into you... Sorcerer Powers!
If a God randomly chose you... Sorcerer Powers!
If you were a God or some other Divine being in a previous life... Sorcerer Powers!
If the stars aligned when you were born... Sorcerer Powers!
If you had Sorcerer Powers and became Reincarnated... Sorcerer Powers!
If a alchemist randomly kidnaps you, performs experiments and you end up with Sorcerer Powers... Sorcerer Powers!
If you had a near death experience... Sorcerer Powers!

None of these are random examples... They are all examples from the various books.
None of these examples mark a person who is particularly Charismatic in any way shape or form.
Honestly most of these are completely random events or a birth event...

but to say that it is common for Sorcerers to have an incredibly force of personality... seems wrong
It seems that most Sorcerers are just lucky.

Edit - Let's think of some more events that would make a Sorcerer!

[Theodoxus]

And all that, is similar to skills - convince me your power comes from a specific stat, and you can use that stat for your spellcasting - Sure, Cha, Int and Wis make the most sense, but if you can convince me that you're using Dexterity - then so be it.

An Int Warlock, A Cha Warlock and a Con Warlock can all live side by side in the same campaign. Same with an Int Cleric along side his Charismatic brother and Wise sister... Heck, I could be convinced that a Charismatic Wizard exists... willing his spells into existence through force of personality... a bit like Doctor Who's Psychic Paper for a spellbook ;)

No need to set anything in stone - an nice warm, soft cleansing mud is just fine.

[JNAProductions]

I'd hesitate to let PHYSICAL stats be used for casting. Con and Dex especially, since they have a lot of other benefits (namely, HP and Concentration saves for Con, and AC and Init for Dex).

That wouldn't BREAK the game or anything, but a Con Wizard, for instance, is likely to be more powerful than an I nt Wizard.

[Theodoxus]

Well, a Con Wizard would be a hard sell... and probably come with some serious side effects as to why...

[Talamare]

Con Wizard? Probably OP

Con Sorcerer? Probably balanced

Mainly because Wizards are already significantly more powerful than Sorcerers with numerous advantages.

[Mjolnirbear]

If you can choose either Strength or Dexterity as your attack stat, why not choose your casting stat?

Id love it, but the stats would need to be rebalanced.

Dexterity is a lot more versatile. But Strength builds give you the best armor and best damage with the most damaging weapons and the most battlefield control. There is a trade off. Players have choice here, à choice that matters

Assuming this was enabled, we'd have to power up INT and CHA. Because WIS is an amazing stat, and INT and CHA give only skills.

Some ideas?
* make initiative dex or int
* let inspiration stack CHA times
* get an extra tool or language per INT bonus
* learn an extra number of spells equal to int bonus
* gain an extra spell slot, max level of your cha bonus

[Talamare]

If you can choose either Strength or Dexterity as your attack stat, why not choose your casting stat?

Id love it, but the stats would need to be rebalanced.

Dexterity is a lot more versatile. But Strength builds give you the best armor and best damage with the most damaging weapons and the most battlefield control. There is a trade off. Players have choice here, à choice that matters

Assuming this was enabled, we'd have to power up INT and CHA. Because WIS is an amazing stat, and INT and CHA give only skills.

Some ideas?
* make initiative dex or int
* let inspiration stack CHA times
* get an extra tool or language per INT bonus
* learn an extra number of spells equal to int bonus
* gain an extra spell slot, max level of your cha bonus

So what you're saying is...
Let's go back to playing 4e!

[Millstone85]

A fun exercise is to invert the logic. You are not using X as your spellcasting ability, but using your spellcasting ability as X.

As a bard, you have practiced arts, both magical and mundane, that are all about influencing others. You have learned to place your voice in ways that charm the ears and the soul. Thus, as you developed your ability for spellcasting, you also became more charismatic.

As a cleric or druid, your connection to the divine heightens your senses and spiritual awareness. The deeper the connection, the more perceptive you become.

As a paladin, your sacred oath gives you an aura of purpose. Everyone you meet is struck by the greater plan that is being realized through you, and your words are rarely ignored.

As a sorcerer or warlock, your otherwordly nature gives you a draconic presence, a devilish charm, or a fascinating glimmer of madness, that helps you manipulate others.

As a wizard, you have studied the workings of the very fabric of reality and attuned your mind to the World Wide Weave. Your thought processes often find your mortal brain too small and wander out of it for a while.

[Mjolnirbear]

So what you're saying is...
Let's go back to playing 4e!

I've never actually played it, so... Maybe? But the game isn't broken for allowing you to choose a finesse or strength build. It works. Very well. Sure Paladins are 'encouraged' to strength builds and rogues to dex builds, but they still have a choice.

It works because the choice was accounted for. The devs asked themselves how to make sure that Dex isn't the obvious choice, so the made STR appealing.

Provided this is addressed, there's no reason you couldn't simply choose a mental stat. But it has to be addressed before you offer that choice, or 70% of casters will use Wisdom.

[Theodoxus]

A fun exercise is to invert the logic. You are not using X as your spellcasting ability, but using your spellcasting ability as X.

As a bard, you have practiced arts, both magical and mundane, that are all about influencing others. You have learned to place your voice in ways that charm the ears and the soul. Thus, as you developed your ability for spellcasting, you also became more charismatic.

As a cleric or druid, your connection to the divine heightens your senses and spiritual awareness. The deeper the connection, the more perceptive you become.

As a paladin, your sacred oath gives you an aura of purpose. Everyone you meet is struck by the greater plan that is being realized through you, and your words are rarely ignored.

As a sorcerer or warlock, your otherwordly nature gives you a draconic presence, a devilish charm, or a fascinating glimmer of madness, that helps you manipulate others.

As a wizard, you have studied the workings of the very fabric of reality and attuned your mind to the World Wide Weave. Your thought processes often find your mortal brain too small and wander out of it for a while.

This sounds like Mike Mearls in the AMA talking about how he'd put stat bonuses on classes, rather than races. I think it sounds good, myself. Instead of being a cleric who is a dwarf because dwarves get a +1 bonus to wisdom, you're a dwarf who is a cleric because you were born naturally wise, and the clergy boosted it.

[JellyPooga]

This sounds like Mike Mearls in the AMA talking about how he'd put stat bonuses on classes, rather than races. I think it sounds good, myself. Instead of being a cleric who is a dwarf because dwarves get a +1 bonus to wisdom, you're a dwarf who is a cleric because you were born naturally wise, and the clergy boosted it.

Off topic somewhat, but if stat bonuses were moved to Class, what would be modified by Race, if anything? It should, to my mind, be something relatively significant (personally, I think the current racial bonuses are not significant enough, but that's a whole other subject of discussion).

[Talamare]

Off topic somewhat, but if stat bonuses were moved to Class, what would be modified by Race, if anything? It should, to my mind, be something relatively significant (personally, I think the current racial bonuses are not significant enough, but that's a whole other subject of discussion).

Waiting for the MMO approach... Races are all fluff, no mechanical benefits...

[Naanomi]

Off topic somewhat, but if stat bonuses were moved to Class, what would be modified by Race, if anything? It should, to my mind, be something relatively significant (personally, I think the current racial bonuses are not significant enough, but that's a whole other subject of discussion).
I’ve seen reasonable proposals that your +2 from Race and +1 from Class might be a system to consider