Shapeshifting Druid

[AvatarVecna]

So, I'm remaking a 3.5 character for a PF game that's gonna be a low-mid gestalt. The character was previously a Druid using the PH2 Shapeshift ACF, which basically gave up the animal companion and the normal wild shaping to have shapeshifting powers from first level onward (which were basically alterations to your normal stats fluffed as shapechanging, and could be used essentially at-will). I don't wanna necessarily just ask the DM to let me use the 3.5 Shapeshift Druid ACF for the PF Druid, especially when PF Druid wild shape works pretty similarly except for the at-will part, but I'm also looking at gestalt options to make a druid into more of a shapeshifting warrior. Here's some things I'm considering.

Druid//Shifter: Nice chassis upgrades, Defensive Instinct is nice, but lots of stuff overlaps, aspects aren't great, and Shifter Claws is tied to them and the natural form. But who plays Druid//Shifter to be an orc with claws? I'm tempted to ask the DM if I can extend Shifter Claws to any Druid Wild Shape form, but I'm worried that has some broken combo I haven't noticed.

Druid//Ranger: Nice chassis upgrades, and some bonus feats isn't bad. Favored Enemy is a bit limited, though, and there's a good bit of overlap between the two. The extra spellcasting with access to ranger-only spells would be nice though.

Druid//Slayer: It's like Ranger if it gave up the spellcasting for Sneak Attack, Rogue Talents, and a better version of Favored Enemy. It's good enough to consider, but there's also already a Slayer in the party...

Druid//Hunter: Chassis isn't as much of an upgrade as I'd like (particularly the BAB), and there's a lot of overlap with Druid. More spellcasting than Ranger, though. Probably not going with this one unless somebody points out something really awesome I missed about this class.

Druid//Barbarian: But for the lack of a good Ref save, this looks fantastic. Rage+Shapeshifting makes for a great primal warrior, Improved Uncanny Dodge is great, and there's some really nice Rage Powers out there. I think I'm gonna avoid Unchained though.

Of these five, the order they're being considered in is likely Barbarian>Slayer>Ranger>Shifter>Hunter, which Shifter shifting down if I can't get claws on other forms. Thoughts?

[Florian]

A good choice´d be combining a Shape Shift Druid with an Iron Wizard build on the other gestalt side.
Druid 20 // Fighter (Weapon Master - Claws) 12 / Occultist (Taxidermist) 8.

[Mara]

Beastkin berserker is a better shifter.

It should temp override your Wildshape with a combat form, so the multiclassing could have some utility.

Avoid the actual shifter class at all cost. Complete garbage.

[Geddy2112]

I second druid/barbarian. Reflex saves are the least bad to fail, and you will be strong enough to break out of entangles and stuff. As a shifter most of your magic is buffing and utility and less saves and debuffs, so you don't need tons of spells or high DC's.
Shame you can't go unchained though.

[upho]

Druid//Barbarian: But for the lack of a good Ref save, this looks fantastic. Rage+Shapeshifting makes for a great primal warrior, Improved Uncanny Dodge is great, and there's some really nice Rage Powers out there. I think I'm gonna avoid Unchained though.Why not Druid//Bloodrager (Primalist) instead? Gives you potentially even more shapeshifting-esque offensive power and a few good arcane combat buff/utility spells/day, provided you can afford a starting Cha of 11+. The bloodlines of special interest IMO are arcane (free blur and haste!) for more defensive options, aberrant (reach is king!) if you're going for more of a melee BFC build, draconic (Dragon Disciple FTW!) for more pure DPR (but not without Dragon Disciple), and finally destined for just useful - if somewhat boring - generic bonuses. Going bloodrager instead of barb also gives you some nifty bonus feats, which you'll likely appreciate a lot.


Of these five, the order they're being considered in is likely Barbarian>Slayer>Ranger>Shifter>Hunter, which Shifter shifting down if I can't get claws on other forms. Thoughts?While this of course also depends on how much potential versatility/utility (mainly in terms of skills) you're willing to sacrifice to become a combat monster, I think I largely agree with your assessment. Though largely depending on which kind of combat role you're going for and how feat starved that will be, I'd personally perhaps rate the ranger higher than slayer, and again bloodrager above all. I'd also consider a 1-2 level Monk dip on the non-druid side for free prereq feats (you'll probably want Feral Combat Training), and maybe some interesting style feats via MoMS (Dragon Style/Ferocity, perhaps?) or even 4 levels of Tetori for silly octopus grab shenanigans...

[AvatarVecna]

I second druid/barbarian. Reflex saves are the least bad to fail, and you will be strong enough to break out of entangles and stuff. As a shifter most of your magic is buffing and utility and less saves and debuffs, so you don't need tons of spells or high DC's.
Shame you can't go unchained though.

Unchained is available as an option, I'm just unclear as to why somebody would play Unchained over original flavor if both were available. I guess U Barb js still better than the rest of the options listed, but it seems like it's largely a downgrade for Barbarians who aren't undead/constructs. Rage doesn't bllst skills or Str/Con checks, no linger boosted by things that improve Morale bonuses, stance rage powers can't stack...the big advantage I see over original flavor is that coming out of rage can't accidentally kill you, which lets me play around carefree in the low HP a bit more, but if I'm getting my ass kicked that badly, I imagine death would be looming over me regardless. Am I missing some big advantage to the unchained version?

[Geddy2112]

Unchained is available as an option, I'm just unclear as to why somebody would play Unchained over original flavor if both were available. I guess U Barb js still better than the rest of the options listed, but it seems like it's largely a downgrade for Barbarians who aren't undead/constructs. Rage doesn't bllst skills or Str/Con checks, no linger boosted by things that improve Morale bonuses, stance rage powers can't stack...the big advantage I see over original flavor is that coming out of rage can't accidentally kill you, which lets me play around carefree in the low HP a bit more, but if I'm getting my ass kicked that badly, I imagine death would be looming over me regardless. Am I missing some big advantage to the unchained version?

The big sell is indeed getting temp HP that actually matters instead of the con increase. If you have ragecycling fully online, you can cycle in a lot of HP every round that gets damaged away, then drop it and reload it every turn, making your barbarian even more of a damage sponge. You can also do a dex based barbarian with unchained. I will agree that the stances suck, particularly as they waste your move action when you can pounce/full round. Losing the bonus to fort saves in a rage is something, but barbarians never had a problem in the fortitude department. There is also the part where you don't have to recalculate bonuses and things on the fly, although an experienced player knows what it functionally boils down to. There is also some cleanup on the language of some rage powers here and there. Trap sense gets upgraded to danger sense, but that is not exactly a major deal.

[exelsisxax]

The big sell is indeed getting temp HP that actually matters instead of the con increase. If you have ragecycling fully online, you can cycle in a lot of HP every round that gets damaged away, then drop it and reload it every turn, making your barbarian even more of a damage sponge. You can also do a dex based barbarian with unchained. I will agree that the stances suck, particularly as they waste your move action when you can pounce/full round. Losing the bonus to fort saves in a rage is something, but barbarians never had a problem in the fortitude department. There is also the part where you don't have to recalculate bonuses and things on the fly, although an experienced player knows what it functionally boils down to. There is also some cleanup on the language of some rage powers here and there. Trap sense gets upgraded to danger sense, but that is not exactly a major deal.

This is incorrect. UCbarb temp HP doesn't refresh unless you're out of rage for 1 minute.

If you're really minmaxing, UCbarb has a lower ceiling. Rage cycling is less relevant because 1/rage powers mostly go away, there's fewer rage power combos that reach stupid levels of damage, and the rage bonuses don't stack well with other things that you could well use. But it's FAR cleaner and easier to use. I'd recommend it on that alone in a gestalt build.