Homebrew Firearms rules

[Talyn]

The next campaign I want to run, and which is currently under construction, is a hexcrawl game that I want to have an "Age of Exploraton" feel. I want the culture and technology to be closer to 17th-century instead of High Middle Ages or Renaissance.

I'm working on a couple of systems which I will be posting here as they get polished, for feedback and suggestions before I write them up for my players. The first (and, I think, the most straightforward) is I want to have firearms rules.

The core conceit is that, in general, firearms have replaced other ranged weapons and are the standard military armament. That means that they have to not suck. On the other hand, I also want them to be relatively primative, and I want non-firearms users to not feel overshadowed.

So, my thoughts are:
- firearms are Simple Weapons. Everyone except wizards start proficient with them.
- firearms have a high base damage, significantly higher than other ranged weapons. One-handed pistols deal 2d8 damage, muskets deal 2d10, blunderbusses deal 2d12 but have extremely short range
- you use the better of your DEX or STR when determining which bonus is added to your attack roll
- firearms do NOT add your DEX/STR bonus to damage
- firearms are, typically, single-shot weapons. You will fire them once per combat, and then switch to another weapon. Reloading a firearm requires four (for pistols) or six (for longarms) standard actions.
- firearms are generally inaccurate past short range. Medium and long range penalties are doubled.
- armor and shields work normally against firearms (i.e. it's still an attack roll to hit you, not a DEX save to dodge or something)
- firearms are expensive. Prices TBD, but enough that low level characters will not be able to just wear a bandolier of pistols and artificially boost their DPR by firing and dropping them, Matrix-style. Bullets and powder are also expensive, enough that even as players go up in levels, there is a cost-benefit analysis towards using them.

That's firearms for everyone. For warrior classes, I'm also thinking of adding a fighting style.

Fighting style: Fusilier. Available to Fighters, Rangers and Paladins. You can add your DEX/STR bonus to damage when using firearms, and you suffer only normal range penalties when firing at medium and long range.

So, under these rules, using a firearm once and then switching to a melee weapon is generally better than using a bow or thrown weapon and doing the same - but what about players who want to use firearms as their primary weapon? For that, you'll need some Feat support.

Feat: Weapon Drill. Reloading a firearm now is a single standard action.

In addition, if you have a class ability that gives your multiple attacks per standard action, you can expend those additional attacks when making a ranged attack with a firearm to "draw a bead" on your target. You must declare that you are drawing a bead on your target before you make your attack roll. If your attack hits, you deal additional damage equal to the base damage of the firearm for each additional attack you expend. If the hit is a critical hit, ALL of the damage dice are doubled.

I haven't done the math out fully, but it looks like a warrior class with this feat and fighting style should have DPR about on par with one using a bow or crossbow, and has the chance to occasionaly drop a truly ridiculous amount of damage on a critical hit.

What do people think? Do these rules make firearms viable without making them too overpowered?

[Davrix]

Just so you know the DMG has a whole section on firearms and gunpowder to reference if you wish.

[Crgaston]

You’ve put a lot of thought and organization into this. Kudos!

I’ll offer some thoughts as an avid shooter.

Strength to hit, and especially to damage doesn’t make much sense to me. However, choosing between Dex, Int or Wis does.

How about making the loading take Attack actions rather than full actions? Say 3 for pistols and 4 for long guns?

This would give martials a higher rate of fire without a feat investment.

I don’t like the “draw a bead” feature, but can’t really articulate why. Mechanically it does seem pretty balanced over time, but the potential for 16d12 on a single attack (15% for a Champion!) seems a little much for a weapon attack.

Maybe have loading involve the concentration mechanic somehow? It’s tough to do while you’re getting pounded on. Or maybe give advantage to melee attacks on those loading?

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[Talyn]

Honestly, I was thinking STR to hit from a purely mechanical perspective - I want a fighter or barbarian to open a fight with a pistol and then switch to melee, as seen in basically every pirate movie ever. I agree it doesn't make a lot of sense fluff-wise - maybe since guns are heavy and awkward, a strong shooter can hold them steady?

Here's the math I was thinking about for 'drawing a bead":

Compare two 11th level fighters, one with a longbow and one with a musket, both with 18 DEX. The longbowman fires three shots per round, each for 1d8+4 damage, for an average DPR of 25.5

The musketeer (assuming he has the feat), uses two of his attacks to 'draw a bead,' and therefore rolls 6d10+4 damage on a hit, for an average damage of 37 - but then he has to use his standard action in the next round to reload, so his damage for that round is reduced to zero. His average DPR is therefore only 18.5 - a significant decrease from the longbowman. If he has two rifles, he can get an extra shot off before going to every-other round, which means in a typical six-round fight, he gets off four shots, for an average DPR of 24.67.

Even when you factor in the occasional uber-crit, it's still a little underpowered. I'm not sure how else to work it, however.

[Talamare]

I would make them even stronger, and not use your stats at all

Pistol 3d8, no bonuses to hit, no penalty if used in melee range
Musket 310, no bonuses to hit, double the range of the pistol
Blunderbuss 3d12, no bonuses to hit, half the range of the pistol

[SirGraystone]

First I would make the pistol a simple weapon and the rifle a martial weapon, not sure why you want to exclude wizards.

Pistols 2d8, musket 2d10 if good, blunderbuss I would do 2d8 like the pistol but with a 10' long cone area of effect (do less damage but hit more target.

I would go for Dex only and use it both to attack and damage roll.

On reload, 4 and 6 actions sound fine, but I would say standard or move action, but that I mean that if you use both your move and standard action, you could reload a pistol in 2 rounds.

Inaccurate penalties for range, would depend a lot of the range you give your weapon.

Firearms are expensive, but if bad guys have some too (and they should) It would be easy to get several guns. Same as powder and bullet from looting.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I like the "bigger die but no ability mod" and "take aim" mechanics, but overall these rules DON'T serve PCs well. You have to invest a whole bunch to get roughly even with BASELINE bow use, and even then, you're paying the unspeakably massive cost of wasted turns. (Anything that takes two turns to use should be around three times as good as a normal turn: once for each turn you spent on it, and again to make up for the wasted spotlight time)

My suggestion would be to just use the Loading property in place of the multi-round load time mess. Giving guns a higher damage die than crossbows but no ability modifier should make them feel powerful-but-crude nicely enough. The "take aim" part of the feat can stay, but it should be tweaked such that it offers a similar DPR boost to Crossbow Expert. (Maybe "consolidate all attacks and boost the crit range?") That leaves guns in a similar place to crossbows-- stronger than bows in the hands of low-level mooks, and very scary in the hands of an expert.

[Talyn]

@Grod:

I had considered fudging the era for firearms and going with a more "Wild West" feel, which meant that we'd be looking at six-shooters, rifles and shotguns instead of pirate pistols, muskets and blunderbusses. If I did that, though, they'd basically just be re-fluffed crossbows - they wouldn't feel different from other ranged weapons.

I could take Talamare's suggestion, and simply boost the weapon damage further.
3d8 for a pistol, 3d10 for the musket, etc.

If I kept all of the other rules intact, that means that opening with a pistol shot for anyone deals an average of 13.5 points of damage, which beats a raging barbarian with a greataxe at low levels.

That same comparison between the 11th level fighter with a bow and one with a musket would go like this:
Longbowman has 1d8+4 x three shots for a total of 25.5 DPR.
Musketeer takes two attacks to draw a bead, and then fires for a total of 9d10+4 damage, averaging 53.5 damage, every other round, for an average of 26.75 DPR. Against bosses and big monsters, a little better than the bow, but there is a significant chance of overkill against minions so a lot of that damage could be "wasted." On a crit, it deals an average of over 100 points of damage (18d10+4!), enough to drop even a fairly big foe in one shot.

The Longbowman is also one feat ahead here, which could be spent boosting DEX or getting Sharpshooter. Against high HP, low-AC enemies, the Longbowman also gets more benefits from Sharpshooter, since he can apply it 3 times, and if the -5 attack penalty causes him to miss, well, he's got two other attacks to make up for it, whereas a missed gunshot means the gunner's DPR is 0 for two rounds.

I had not considered how a gunner PC might feel with having to lose the spotlight during his reloading round - I agree that the gun needs to have compensation to make up for that. After some consideration, though, I think the truly astonishing number of dice you'd get to roll on a crit makes up for that, and gives firearms a certain "wow" factor.

[Doug Lampert]

@Grod:

I had considered fudging the era for firearms and going with a more "Wild West" feel, which meant that we'd be looking at six-shooters, rifles and shotguns instead of pirate pistols, muskets and blunderbusses. If I did that, though, they'd basically just be re-fluffed crossbows - they wouldn't feel different from other ranged weapons.

I could take Talamare's suggestion, and simply boost the weapon damage further.
3d8 for a pistol, 3d10 for the musket, etc.

If I kept all of the other rules intact, that means that opening with a pistol shot for anyone deals an average of 13.5 points of damage, which beats a raging barbarian with a greataxe at low levels.

That same comparison between the 11th level fighter with a bow and one with a musket would go like this:
Longbowman has 1d8+4 x three shots for a total of 25.5 DPR.
Musketeer takes two attacks to draw a bead, and then fires for a total of 9d10+4 damage, averaging 53.5 damage, every other round, for an average of 26.75 DPR. Against bosses and big monsters, a little better than the bow, but there is a significant chance of overkill against minions so a lot of that damage could be "wasted." On a crit, it deals an average of over 100 points of damage (18d10+4!), enough to drop even a fairly big foe in one shot.

The Longbowman is also one feat ahead here, which could be spent boosting DEX or getting Sharpshooter. Against high HP, low-AC enemies, the Longbowman also gets more benefits from Sharpshooter, since he can apply it 3 times, and if the -5 attack penalty causes him to miss, well, he's got two other attacks to make up for it, whereas a missed gunshot means the gunner's DPR is 0 for two rounds.

I had not considered how a gunner PC might feel with having to lose the spotlight during his reloading round - I agree that the gun needs to have compensation to make up for that. After some consideration, though, I think the truly astonishing number of dice you'd get to roll on a crit makes up for that, and gives firearms a certain "wow" factor.

Historically the solution to loading times was to carry multiple weapons.

IIRC English Civil War cavalry manuals recommend a minimum of 5 firearms per man, and still anticipated that the main action would be melee combat. (And also recommended always saving at least one pistol to cover the retreat or for the pursuit.)

A single man might have a bandoleer of pistols. The only people who reloaded in combat were snipers and those in mass formations acting outside the effective single target range (which was less than 50' even for muskets).

This means that the load time is likely to be irrelevant in a historical usage. I'd ignore it when balancing non-magical firearms (especially pistols). Just assume the firearm is a single use weapon, same as a thrown javelin or dagger.

Make drawing a pistol a free action, and holstering it the user's choice of an object interaction or bonus action. Puff, the level 20 fighter is the only one who does not get his full attack routine with a pistol.

If you balance for "reload time", then the first guy to realize he can carry 8 pistols will "win D&D" (nor is 8 all that high a number, consider six on a bandoleer and two on the belt, then start adding all the extra spots someone puts a pistol in your favorite pirate fiction, shoulder holster, boots, back, ext....).

[SkipSandwich]

I would balance black powder firearms against cantrips personally. Both are intended to deal damage in a single burst instead of across multiple attacks.

So, give characters a "Device Attack" modifier to apply to things like firearms, alchemical weapons and so on, and treat device attacks like casting spells. Characters proficient with Devices deal increasing damage as they level up(as cantrips) as they learn how to safely increase the yield without blowing themselves up on use.

Fighters and Rogues use Int as their Device Modifier(technical expertise), Barbarians and Rangers use Wis(intuitive knack), and Bards and Paladins use Cha (rule-of-cool, like The Fonz). Monks and Spellcasters are not natively proficient with Devices.

Devices can be Alchemical (req prof: Alchemist's Supplies), Mechanical (req prof: Tinker's Tools), or Bushcraft (req prof: Herbalists kit).

Firearms would fall under mechanical devices, but bombs and powder kegs would be alchemical. Bushcraft would include things like healing potions, poison, traps and snares.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

So, my thoughts are:
- firearms are Simple Weapons. Everyone except wizards start proficient with them.
- firearms have a high base damage, significantly higher than other ranged weapons. One-handed pistols deal 2d8 damage, muskets deal 2d10, blunderbusses deal 2d12 but have extremely short range
- you use the better of your DEX or STR when determining which bonus is added to your attack roll
- firearms do NOT add your DEX/STR bonus to damage
- firearms are, typically, single-shot weapons. You will fire them once per combat, and then switch to another weapon. Reloading a firearm requires four (for pistols) or six (for longarms) standard actions.
- firearms are generally inaccurate past short range. Medium and long range penalties are doubled.
- armor and shields work normally against firearms (i.e. it's still an attack roll to hit you, not a DEX save to dodge or something)
- firearms are expensive. Prices TBD, but enough that low level characters will not be able to just wear a bandolier of pistols and artificially boost their DPR by firing and dropping them, Matrix-style. Bullets and powder are also expensive, enough that even as players go up in levels, there is a cost-benefit analysis towards using them.
Fifth edition doesn't really support this kind of range penalty unless it's something you've houseruled into your game and not really spelled out here. A weapon's range is expressed as two numbers. The first number is the maximum range without penalty (which I guess you could call short range); the second is the maximum total range, but firing within that range but outside the lower one means the attack is made with disadvantage. You could call these ranges "short" and "long" range for the weapon, but there's really nothing equivalent to "medium range" and disadvantage isn't the kind of penalty you can just double.

If this is the feel you want, I would suggest giving firearms a relatively low range (maybe 20/60, like a thrown dagger) and allow effects that increase accuracy over range (like the fighting style) just double those numbers (so 40 ft. without penalty and 120 with disadvantage). You could triple them if you want even longer range, but double feels about right to me.

[Talyn]

Historically the solution to loading times was to carry multiple weapons.

...

If you balance for "reload time", then the first guy to realize he can carry 8 pistols will "win D&D" (nor is 8 all that high a number, consider six on a bandoleer and two on the belt, then start adding all the extra spots someone puts a pistol in your favorite pirate fiction, shoulder holster, boots, back, ext....).

Let's do the math on a fighter with a bandolier of pistols. Our same 11th level fighter from above, with eight pistols. We are assuming that he drops the fired pistol and draws another one on each of his move actions.

Because he has the feat, he can use his extra attacks to "draw a bead" on his target. He doesn't need to reload, so he can fire every round. He rolls 9d8+4 every round, for an average DPR of 44.5 - significantly higher than either the longbowman or the musketeer. He'll have enough guns on him to not run out over the course of a six or eight-round combat. Sure, larger battles and/or significant attrition will limit his damage eventually, but for almost every typical environment, the guy with a chest full of pistols is just better than other options.

+++

Possible solutions:
- only allow "drawing a bead" to work with longarms
- only allow a character to "draw a bead" X number of times per short rest (I don't like this, it's more bookkeeping to keep track of)
- reduce damage of pistols but not longarms (if pistols only do 2d8 instead of 3d8, DPR drops to the still-high but more in-line with other weapons at 31 DPR)
- change the wording so that you can only "draw a bead" every other round
- scrap the "draw a bead" mechanic and go with something else

[Throne12]

I'm using guns in my home game and next time I allow guns in my game I'm just going to tell the player to pick a crossbow and call it pistol, rifle, ECT. And call it a day.

[Callin]

Refluff crossbows to guns. Get rid of the fighting style. Change the feat to just do Draw a Bead but cap it at 1. Change croasbow master to work with guns.

Keeps a nice even playing field and lets everyone enjoy guns.

Also add in grapeshot that can only be used with the heavy rifle. 15ft cone and Draw a Bead works on 1 target only.

So with crossbow master you can get multiple small shots or with Draw a Bead you get 1 massive shot that can crit really hard.

[Athoren]

i run fire arms just like crossbows but target their ac vs guns which is 10+dex mod up to what is allowed in there armor+magical ac boosts