Swashbuckler Battlemaster tactic help

[NiklasWB]

Hi everyone, I was hoping to get some tips on tactics to use as a swashbuckler/battlemaster multiclass.

Currently my character (level 7) is a level 5 Fighter (Battlemaster), and a level 2 Rogue (Swashbuckler next level).

Ability Scores:

STR: 12
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 14

I use a magical rapier that my DM gave me, that does +1 to damage and attack, and it also has an increased critical range (19-20). I also have a pair of magical bracers that gives +2 to AC if I only use a single handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other hand.

So, my tactic thus far has been to run into melee and just hit things with my rapier. I use Battlemaster Maneuvers when I can; (1) Disarming Attack for extra damage and potential disarming, (2) Precision Attack if I miss and I really need to hit something, and (3) Riposte when something misses me for extra damage and extra sneak attack on someone else’s turn. I sprinkle this with Second Wind when I need a heal as a bonus action, or an Action Surge if I get advantage or just really need to kill something quick.

Anyways, I’m slowly getting to where the build is basically “achieved”, which would be at level 8. Then I will have the Swashbuckler subclass with Fancy Footwork and Rakish Audacity as well as 5 levels of Fighter. Everything after that is just gravy.

But my question is this: How do I effectively use Cunning action and Fancy Footwork with my build? I know Swashbucklers are meant to be able to effectively dual wield, but that clashed with my concept, and I’m already invested in Dueling fighting style single weapon fighting. My bracers also effectively give me a shield for AC, so I’m sticking to single rapier wielding. This also frees up my bonus action almost every single turn since I don't do an off-hand attack.

So! How do I effectively use my Cunning action for this build? Do I Disengage after my attacks in melee and move away (hoping someone else can get an attack of opportunity)? Or do I Dash out 40 feet and risk an opportunity attack (but stay out of their reach the next turn)? It will be easier to figure out with Fancy Footwork since I will pretty much always be able to get away from melee without getting hit, and also be able to use the bonus action Dash for 60 feet of movement (so I should be able to dash in and out / hit and run for a few rounds). But until next level I need to use my Cunning Action effectively in some way.

I’m looking for suggestions on what tactics I should use. The rest of the party is a Land Druid (damage spells and summoning animals), a Tempest Cleric (mostly melee with some damage spells thrown in) and a Life Cleric (healing/buffing). I thought I was going to be able to tank somewhat, but I’m realizing that that doesn’t seem to be the case. So I'm guessing I will have to find a more "hit and run"-niche.

Any tips would be welcome!

[Citan]

Hi everyone, I was hoping to get some tips on tactics to use as a swashbuckler/battlemaster multiclass.

Currently my character (level 7) is a level 5 Fighter (Battlemaster), and a level 2 Rogue (Swashbuckler next level).

Ability Scores:

STR: 12
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 14

I use a magical rapier that my DM gave me, that does +1 to damage and attack, and it also has an increased critical range (19-20). I also have a pair of magical bracers that gives +2 to AC if I only use a single handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other hand.

So, my tactic thus far has been to run into melee and just hit things with my rapier. I use Battlemaster Maneuvers when I can; (1) Disarming Attack for extra damage and potential disarming, (2) Precision Attack if I miss and I really need to hit something, and (3) Riposte when something misses me for extra damage and extra sneak attack on someone else’s turn. I sprinkle this with Second Wind when I need a heal as a bonus action, or an Action Surge if I get advantage or just really need to kill something quick.

Anyways, I’m slowly getting to where the build is basically “achieved”, which would be at level 8. Then I will have the Swashbuckler subclass with Fancy Footwork and Rakish Audacity as well as 5 levels of Fighter. Everything after that is just gravy.

But my question is this: How do I effectively use Cunning action and Fancy Footwork with my build? I know Swashbucklers are meant to be able to effectively dual wield, but that clashed with my concept, and I’m already invested in Dueling fighting style single weapon fighting. My bracers also effectively give me a shield for AC, so I’m sticking to single rapier wielding. This also frees up my bonus action almost every single turn since I don't do an off-hand attack.

So! How do I effectively use my Cunning action for this build? Do I Disengage after my attacks in melee and move away (hoping someone else can get an attack of opportunity)? Or do I Dash out 40 feet and risk an opportunity attack (but stay out of their reach the next turn)? It will be easier to figure out with Fancy Footwork since I will pretty much always be able to get away from melee without getting hit, and also be able to use the bonus action Dash for 60 feet of movement (so I should be able to dash in and out / hit and run for a few rounds). But until next level I need to use my Cunning Action effectively in some way.

I’m looking for suggestions on what tactics I should use. The rest of the party is a Land Druid (damage spells and summoning animals), a Tempest Cleric (mostly melee with some damage spells thrown in) and a Life Cleric (healing/buffing). I thought I was going to be able to tank somewhat, but I’m realizing that that doesn’t seem to be the case. So I'm guessing I will have to find a more "hit and run"-niche.

Any tips would be welcome!
Hi!

Well, as always, it's difficult to give theorycraft advice... ;à)
Note that I suppose that you have Expertise in Athletics (or you will get it later).
Also, note that Swashbuckler give you free disengage against enemies you attacked, so if you can manage to target an isolated enemy (or a pair of enemies) you will keep the use of your bonus action.

Let's try by using your party context:
- Land Druid: unless (s)he really loves using always the same tactic, why not Grapple enemies into a Spike Growth or Plant Growth then Shove them: it would make a good use of your free hand: you can draw a single enemy into an area in which others will have problems following if they want to help him. So its best course of action would be to either try and free himself to flee (then risking a Sneak Attack on OA) or attack you (and risking a Riposte). Even better if Druid accepts to Longstrider you.
- Tempest and Life Cleric: there is the usual Shove tactic, but if any of them tend to use Spirit Guardians, then the Grapple works well too.

Beyond that... I've been away from D&d 5e for a while so don't remember all spells or potential synergies.
If you are looking for hit & run ideas, you may try to act as a lure to group monsters together, using your mobility to herd them while limiting the number of direct attacks that can be made against you, packing them for a subsequent maximized Shatter (Tempest) or Dashing Spirit Guardians (Life).
Of you could swap a Manoeuver and take Evasive Footwork, and run through enemy lines to go target a glass cannon then run back: this is a dangerous tactic to set and will probably require people boosting you (at least Longstrider). On the plus side, because enemies are not supposed to know you are that hard to hit with OA, many of them should waste their OA on you (and potentially allow you to Riposte? Don't remember if "reaction on reaction" is a thing) so your Cleric friends (and Druid's animals) could close in and out without risk; and you could potentially hurt a caster or archer bad.
Or you could ask for a Sanctuary, then spend a whole turn Hiding then Dashing to go around and backtrack, taking enemies in sandwich. But that tactic obviously need the fight to last, otherwise you will just have been fooling around while your pals took the hurt. ^^

[Alatar]

Battlemaster / Swashbuckler is a delightful combination. I'm working on one now, though mine will be Strength based so as to combine Shield Master with Expertise in Athletics. Same weapon, though.

So you have quite a collection of tactical tools, between your maneuvers and Cunning Action, and you will have more soon enough. You are definitely built for hit and run tactics. You should never be toe to toe with an opponent at the end of your turn, or rarely. That's good advice for a straight up battlemaster. 5e combat is not about tanking. It's about motion, fluidity, dynamism. Anyone in melee who is standing still is ceding too much to the enemy.

I highly recommend the Menacing Attack maneuver. If you can tag two opponents with that in round one then the enemy is truly on their back foot. They won't be able to close on you and whoever they do attack is likely to be missed. My first battlemaster made a good living off that maneuver.

When you move away, move diagonally. It is a natural tendency for players, DMs included, to plow straight forward and retreat straight backward, moving along the main axis of the line of battle. But that keeps you dead center in the field of view of your enemy and tends to lead to clumping. I call it posing for the fireball. Don't do that.

Where you choose to stand between turns has an oddly significant impact on what happens to you during that interval. It's really quite amazing.

Work around the edges of the scrum. Don't set yourself up for too much company at once. Each enemy deserves your full focus. Don't encourage them to vie for your attention.

Whenever it's convenient, maneuver yourself so that you are beside or behind your adversary, not in front of him, relative to the line of battle. That way, when you back off, you are either moving laterally to the line of battle or into the enemy's backfield, places where the DM is unlikely to focus his resources, all things being equal.

This stuff really matters. It adds up. It's not about being unhittable. It's about not being the bullseye. It's about being a slightly inconvenient target. Your DM is multitasking, he's trying to keep things moving along, and he doesn't have the time to play Where's Waldo. Give him one less player character that catches his eye. He doesn't need all that stress. D&D is supposed to be fun. Help the poor guy out. Now he can put a second guy on the druid in the middle of the field who thinks he's a bear. Focused fire. Very tactical. Your DM will feel like he's being fair to his monsters. Endorphins get released. Stress levels drop. And your friend the bear is getting a spotlight moment. This is what it means to be a good team player.

While playing a battlemaster, it was not uncommon for me to come out of a combat never having been hit, even though I had made a significant, sometimes outsized contribution to the fight. That means I had consumed no party resources and wasn't going to be eating into my hit dice budget afterward. Yeah, the druid got kinda chewed up, but am I my bear's keeper? No, I'm the battlemaster, which sometimes involves a bit of delegating.

These are all generalities, of course; platitudes. Applying them tactically requires reading the field, sizing up the situation, gauging the proclivities of your enemies, knowing the strengths, weaknesses and tendencies of your fellow PCs, judging the impact of the terrain. And sometimes circumstances will dictate that you adopt off-nominal tactics. Sometimes tanking will be the right answer. Every encounter is different. It's fun stuff, mastering battles, to say nothing of buckling swashes.

[Innocent_bystan]

... since I don't do an off-hand attack.

So why don't you make an unarmed off-hand attack? Shove an opponent or start a grapple and drag someone away from his allies.

[vonkraush]

You should maybe consider choosing goading attack over disarming or precision, I think it would do a lot for your team once you get the swashbuckler package. One fantastic maneuver is:

1. Hit opponent with goading attack, thanks to swashbuckler they can't target you with an OA.
2. Use cunning action to dash away beyond that opponent's range

You give your opponent disadvantage on all attack rolls they can conceivably make (since they can't reach you). Alternatively you can choose not to dash out of the way and let them attack you, which has risk involved but lets you potentially trigger more sneak attack damage off of riposte if they miss. Ultimately I feel like it just makes you a much better tank without compromising your damage or utility.

[djreynolds]

Like Alatar, I play a half/orc 8 battlemaster/ 6 swashbuckler/ 1 cleric (for some magic) we are still playing and use shield master and the reality is with shield master and expertise in athletics, rakish audacity is wasted sometimes. And even rolling twice... not many 20's are rolled.

So I might try a champion/swashbuckler or a battlemaster/arcane trickster, that's just me

But enough of that......... lets work with your character

Commander strike is a bonus action, so its good to have.
Rally is also a bonus action
Feinting is a bonus action

So these maneuvers may help since you have bonus action screaming to be used and cunning action isn't as needed

With swashbucklers fancy foot work you may not need to disengage

And rakish audacity means you can sneak attack 90% of the time, so shield master isn't always needed for advantage to sneak attack, but advantage to possibly score a crit with SA and maneuvers

Trip and push will work just fine for a dex based fighter since your save DC is strength or dex... your choice

The key now is pump up rogue for sneak attack damage.... this is where your damage will come from

Good luck

[Laserlight]

When I played a SwashBattler, I was always torn between "stay here and Riposte for another Sneak Attack" or "run away and don't get attacked".

[Callin]

Like has been said. Hit an run and circle the outside. OR pick off certain stand alone enemies. With dash you can get to em faster and sneak attack em all alone. Pick up booming blade then you can move in and out and they cant or take more damage. Unless they have ranged. Then stick to em and hold em with BB so they have disadvantage or they drop their ranged and melee. Then do hit and run on em. I suggest nabin trip if you dont want to go MI warlock for BB, and Hex. Course MI is once ya hit Rogue 4 so for now get trip?

Anyway ya play he sounds fun!

Btw what race?

[Paeleus]

Mechanically, you have the wisdom score for a 3 level dip into Hunter ranger to nab some spells like Hunter's Mark, Zephyr Strike, and Ensnaring Strike, another fighting style, and Horde Breaker. Whether that being worth it may be up to debate when additional fighter levels sees bigger and more maneuver dice and grants some ASI/Feat opportunities.

[Alatar]

Like Alatar, I play a half/orc 8 battlemaster/ 6 swashbuckler/ 1 cleric (for some magic) we are still playing and use shield master and the reality is with shield master and expertise in athletics, rakish audacity is wasted sometimes. And even rolling twice... not many 20's are rolled.

So I might try a champion/swashbuckler or a battlemaster/arcane trickster, that's just me


To my way of thinking -- because that's all it is, I haven't played a battlemaster/swashbuckler yet -- what rogue buys you is dash as a bonus action, expertise for athletics, and sneak attacks, including off turn sneak attacks via riposte. I'm going with swashbuckler because that basically locks in the once-per-round sneak attack as a given. The feinting attack maneuver can cover those rare occasions when sneak attack is not otherwise available.

The swashbuckler's just about guaranteed sneak attacks, combined with the fairly frequent off-turn sneak attacks provided by riposte, are meant to compensate, and hopefully overcompensate for the delayed/lost fighter extra attacks.

Essentially, I am trying to craft a battlemaster that won't fade in the third and fourth tiers of play, when the Shield Master shoves stop working like they used to and it becomes tougher and tougher for a simple fighter to close on increasingly mobile enemies. Here I am speaking from experience. I retired my beloved battlemaster after 11th level because I wanted him to go out near the top of his game.

I think my fighter/rogue build, as it currently stands, will keep my battlemaster viable through at least tier three. Tier four may prove to be a bridge to far, as the bad guys get epic and start flying and teleporting all over the place. And Riposte only works when they miss. Epic bad guys don't do a lot of missing. So that's an open question. But if the build stays strong through level 16, I've accomplished something.

I decided against arcane trickster for two reasons. First, it gives me the wrong kind of arcane spells. I want Shield and Absorb Elements. Expeditious Retreat would also come in handy. Essentially, the Eldritch Knight spells. But illusions and enchantments don't do it for me. Intelligence is a dump stat for most fighter builds, mine included. No ones going to be fooled by my illusions or overcome by my enchantments, and besides, it's just off brand. The second reason: my sneak attacks become more elusive. Now I need to work for them, and I've undermined my ability to do so by going with Strength over Dexterity. Arcane Trickster is not a good match for me.

You mentioned Rakish Audacity. I'm treating Charisma as another dump stat, so I'll be getting a zero boost to Initiative from Rakish Audacity. But I will be enjoying the near certain sneak attack opportunities. I generally don't like playing rogues because of the tyranny of sneak attack. Round after round it's always the same deal. How do I get sneak attack? Sneak attack is job one. Sneak attack is job only. I'm going to have a big tactical tool box. I want to be concentrating on things other than sneak attack. Rakish Audacity (and the Feinting Attack maneuver) frees me up to do so.

My rogue levels stop at 8, so I don't have to fret about wasting Panache. The build is 6 levels of fighter (gotta snatch that ASI) followed by 8 levels of rogue (two more ASIs/feats) and finishing with 6 more levels of fighter. I get to enjoy the second Extra Attack for two levels. The capstone is a final ASI/feat.

[djreynolds]

Remember you have uncanny dodge, which I love.

I love uncanny dodge and resistance more than a higher AC, because it eats up resources.

Say you are fighting a paladin, all his smiting is post hit, so if the paladin misses... he's just going save the smite for a critical hit.... which is a hit no matter what. A natural 20 beats a 30 AC... it crazy.

So having the shield spell isn't a huge necessity with uncanny dodge.

And you will get evasion, which is as good as absorb elements

Also with a 14 in wisdom, a level of ranger is sweet to grab for hunter's mark something for your bonus action.

Also a level of war cleric gets you divine favor, good for attacking multiple opponents

IMO once you get that extra attack at 5th level fighter, just go rogue and get that SA damage

[Alatar]

Remember you have uncanny dodge, which I love.

Yes indeed. I'm not turning my nose up at it. It's just not central to why I'm choosing rogue as the second class, and since my posts run on as it is, I chose not to make mention of uncanny dodge, nor evasion. But yeah, uncanny dodge in full plate? Sounds delightful.


Also with a 14 in wisdom, a level of ranger is sweet to grab for hunter's mark something for your bonus action.

That would make my STR based fighter/rogue a MAD build, which it is currently not. My plan, at the moment, is to push both STR and CON to 20 by the end, get proficiency in WIS, and maybe throw in Tough. I'll have a character with lots of tools and the wherewithal to wield them.


Also a level of war cleric gets you divine favor, good for attacking multiple opponents

The same argument applies.


IMO once you get that extra attack at 5th level fighter, just go rogue and get that SA damage

There is certainly an argument to be made for starting rogue at 6. Principally, every bit of roguish goodness comes a level earlier. That's a strong argument, because the thing to always keep front and center when designing a multiclass character is how early the choices you make will pay off at the table. There is no end goal at all. The end is the end. The journey is all that matters. So a critical design goal is to front load the build as best you can.

The counter argument is if I push fighter one more level to 6, I will have pumped STR to 20. That too is a strong argument. STR is the character's primary stat. You could argue that STR is also his secondary stat, because everyone needs CON. STR plays a role in every attack and damage calculation, and every Athletics check. Shield Master means he'll be making a lot of those.

I will also have preserved, as best I can, the build's ASI/feat cadence, and I have all those opportunities booked solid.

But I haven't addressed the argument that you advanced, that after 5 levels of fighter, I should commit to rogue for the remaining levels to get the most out of sneak attack. I certainly cannot reject that advice out of hand. Were I to run the numbers, they probably would strongly support your position. It's something I will have to think about, which is good. I like ruminating about character builds.

There are counter arguments to be made. Thematically, my goal is a battlemaster that flourishes rather than fades at the higher levels. If I stop the fighter progression at 5, I get something that is more rogue than battlemaster.

I'll also miss 4 additional maneuvers and a 5th superiority die. The value of the maneuvers cannot be quantified, and they are all members of that group of maneuvers that I elected not to take in the first place. Still, there are a lot of good maneuvers. What makes the battlemaster so much fun to play is all the different things he can do in combat. If you like tactical play, battlemaster is as good as it gets, and I really like tactical play. I don't want to lose sight of that.

The additional superiority die is quantifiable, and won't compare favorably to better sneak attack damage. That's the rub.

The fighter levels will net me more hit points, six to 12 of them, depending how level apportionment impacts the ASI count. Clinging to straws here.

I'll have to take a longer look at that, and I may well alter the proportional mix of fighter and rogue levels, even if I don't abandon the second leg of my fighter progression altogether. Thanks for the food for thought.

[Crgaston]

...

This stuff really matters. It adds up. It's not about being unhittable. It's about not being the bullseye. It's about being a slightly inconvenient target. Your DM is multitasking, he's trying to keep things moving along, and he doesn't have the time to play Where's Waldo. Give him one less player character that catches his eye. He doesn't need all that stress. D&D is supposed to be fun. Help the poor guy out. Now he can put a second guy on the druid in the middle of the field who thinks he's a bear. Focused fire. Very tactical. Your DM will feel like he's being fair to his monsters. Endorphins get released. Stress levels drop. And your friend the bear is getting a spotlight moment. This is what it means to be a good team player.

...

It's fun stuff, mastering battles, to say nothing of buckling swashes.

Your whole post is great advice, but especially this part. Pure gold!