My Players Did Something Unexpected (Surprise!) - They passed the buck...

[PeteNutButter]

This past week I had my players in a wonderful moral dilemma where they were faced with a choice of a clearly evil act that would potentially save a whole lot of people. I'll spare you the details, but it was basically, "This ancient demon lord needs soul(s) or the entire balance that is keeping these two massive feuding empires from declaring open war breaks."

I was thinking it was a relatively binary choice, with a third option of trying to commit suicide and free/fight the demon lord. They either offer a soul or find someone to offer a soul (EVIL) or they say no and let the war start. I was thinking option two was the most likely.

Instead they did the most practical thing one would do in a real world, and passed the buck. The wizard cast Sending straight to their aligned emperor telling him whats up and asking him what to do.

In hindsight, I'm kind of an idiot for not thinking they'd do that. Although the wizard leveled up and took sending just to for this purpose. Without the spell it would be a month or two away meaning the decision might have made itself due to the time crunch. I ended the session there, so I'm not sure how the response will go.

Really it comes down to how players are treated in the world though. Players are either Heroes of the Universe, protagonists of the story, or simply actors in a larger picture. Since this is the 3rd campaign set in my world, I suppose it's no surprise that they would feel like the latter.

How do you folks (DMs and players) play the game? Are you mere actors or protagonists?

[Feuerphoenix]

Well is your emperor interested in keeping the balance? Or is he abitious, preparing for a war and overthrow the other empire? That is the main question to ask for proceeding the story

[Unoriginal]

This past week I had my players in a wonderful moral dilemma where they were faced with a choice of a clearly evil act that would potentially save a whole lot of people. I'll spare you the details, but it was basically, "This ancient demon lord needs soul(s) or the entire balance that is keeping these two massive feuding empires from declaring open war breaks."

I was thinking it was a relatively binary choice, with a third option of trying to commit suicide and free/fight the demon lord. They either offer a soul or find someone to offer a soul (EVIL) or they say no and let the war start. I was thinking option two was the most likely.

Instead they did the most practical thing one would do in a real world, and passed the buck. The wizard cast Sending straight to their aligned emperor telling him whats up and asking him what to do.

In hindsight, I'm kind of an idiot for not thinking they'd do that. Although the wizard leveled up and took sending just to for this purpose. Without the spell it would be a month or two away meaning the decision might have made itself due to the time crunch. I ended the session there, so I'm not sure how the response will go.

Really it comes down to how players are treated in the world though. Players are either Heroes of the Universe, protagonists of the story, or simply actors in a larger picture. Since this is the 3rd campaign set in my world, I suppose it's no surprise that they would feel like the latter.

How do you folks (DMs and players) play the game? Are you mere actors or protagonists?

A protagonist is still an actor in a larger picture, and allowing NPCs to make important decision is *still* part of the protagonists' role.

Now, my question is, how does calling the emperor changes anything?

Either the emperor ask them to feed some souls to the demon, which is still evil, or war happen and thousands die.

Unless the demon wasn't actually preventing the war and the emperor just go "what the ****? This demon doesn't control anything, I can just decide to not go to war."

[PeteNutButter]

A protagonist is still an actor in a larger picture, and allowing NPCs to make important decision is *still* part of the protagonists' role.

Now, my question is, how does calling the emperor changes anything?

Either the emperor ask them to feed some souls to the demon, which is still evil, or war happen and thousands die.

Unless the demon wasn't actually preventing the war and the emperor just go "what the ****? This demon doesn't control anything, I can just decide to not go to war."

It doesn’t really change all that much it just means the players don’t have to make the difficult decision. I was considering having the emperor reply back, “Resolve it.” He can be an aloof prick like that.

The demon is the power source that is empowering a physical and magical barrier between the two empires. The party found out the barrier was weakening and went to investigate. No one living knew until they got to the source that it was powered by the demon lord, who is now “starving to death,” after 250 years of not having any souls. That’s his thing. Demon battery running low, needs plugged in.

[nickl_2000]

Are any of the PCs sick of their characters? Sounds like the perfect time to sacrifice themselves to save others and then get to play with a brand new Xanathar's class choice.

[Temperjoke]

Well, if they were undertaking this mission on behalf of their Emperor, then asking his input is the most rational decision, especially since this has huge ramifications. Of course, it would have made a difference if they didn't have the means to rapidly communicate with him, but anyways, it's pointless to think about it.

In a sense this is good for you. This is a moment for you to control the flow of the story. What would this Emperor want? Does he want a chance for war? Maybe this is what he was hoping all along?

[PeteNutButter]

Are any of the PCs sick of their characters? Sounds like the perfect time to sacrifice themselves to save others and then get to play with a brand new Xanathar's class choice.

No one took that bait at the moment. Although there is a fair chance someone may might message me between now and next session. I think the fact that the demon lord is a demon (CE) and not LE really made them hesitant.

[Doug Lampert]

This past week I had my players in a wonderful moral dilemma where they were faced with a choice of a clearly evil act that would potentially save a whole lot of people. I'll spare you the details, but it was basically, "This ancient demon lord needs soul(s) or the entire balance that is keeping these two massive feuding empires from declaring open war breaks."

I was thinking it was a relatively binary choice, with a third option of trying to commit suicide and free/fight the demon lord. They either offer a soul or find someone to offer a soul (EVIL) or they say no and let the war start. I was thinking option two was the most likely.

Instead they did the most practical thing one would do in a real world, and passed the buck. The wizard cast Sending straight to their aligned emperor telling him whats up and asking him what to do.

In hindsight, I'm kind of an idiot for not thinking they'd do that. Although the wizard leveled up and took sending just to for this purpose. Without the spell it would be a month or two away meaning the decision might have made itself due to the time crunch. I ended the session there, so I'm not sure how the response will go.

Really it comes down to how players are treated in the world though. Players are either Heroes of the Universe, protagonists of the story, or simply actors in a larger picture. Since this is the 3rd campaign set in my world, I suppose it's no surprise that they would feel like the latter.

How do you folks (DMs and players) play the game? Are you mere actors or protagonists?

They are protagonists of their own story, which is the story we are telling, but they are mere actors in the larger universe unless they make themselves into heroes of the universe.

If I'm writing a police drama, the protagonist can use his radio to check in with the department, and even summon help, and none of that makes him not the protagonist or hero. It doesn't even really stop him from being a great hero. It just means he has a support structure.

So I'm not sure I understand the question.

As to the situation, the emperor can do one of several things:
(1) "Sounds like one of you needs to sacrifice yourself."
(2) "I've got a guy with Teleport and I've got a mass murderer whose not going anyplace pleasant after I have him executed anyway. You'll have a shipment arrive within a day."
(3) "I'll mobilize my armies, try to figure out exactly when the barrier will come down so we can maximize our surprise attack."
(4) "I'll mobilize my armies, try to figure out how much time we have so my negotiators can try to avoid a war."
(5) "So, are there any disposable minions or peasants in the area?"
(6) "You are there, it's your problem, resolve it."

Note that (3) and (4) are basically the same response as far as the PCs know, so unless the emperor is compulsively honest with them, he'll probably go with (4) as what he sends even if (3) is the real answer.

[Finlam]

Well, if they were undertaking this mission on behalf of their Emperor, then asking his input is the most rational decision, especially since this has huge ramifications. Of course, it would have made a difference if they didn't have the means to rapidly communicate with him, but anyways, it's pointless to think about it.

In a sense this is good for you. This is a moment for you to control the flow of the story. What would this Emperor want? Does he want a chance for war? Maybe this is what he was hoping all along?
Seconded.

Some questions to ask: How much does the Emperor trust the PCs? Is it enough to believe that the barrier which has stood for his entire life is actually demonic and powered by souls?

Is the emperor paranoid? Would he take the PCs at face value of think it's some kind of trap?

Would the emperor be practical and have a high-level mage teleport over with a ready to be sacrificed prisoner?


More importantly, which of these traits would turn into an interesting story for your players? Would they like a plot hook centered around the emperor denying the truth of the demon to protect an even darker secret, turning them into fugitives of the empire even as they save it? Or would they simply rather be done with this plot and move onto something else?

This may be a good chance to bring back some NPCs that the PCs have a strong (positive or negative) connection with; adding in that emotional element will make the result (whatever you choose it to be) more memorable for the players.

[Spore]

Just base the answer on the emperor's personality and relationship towards the heroes. Unless he is a blank slate.

The most resaonable and wise decision would be to tell them to let the barrier drop and seize the opportunity. Putting up a semi-permanent barrier is just like "sealing a greater evil". It is postponing the problem. Have the emperor create a military scenario unwinnable for the enemy, resulting in "peace by force" and then renegotiate the new borders. Unless...you do not want to turn this adventure into a politics simulator (we did that once - as we had a tribunal deciding for a new warchief for three whole sessions of debating with incredibly entrenched opinions about the matter). Then just have the war start and the demon siphon the souls of the war to become to bigger evil that should be united against.

[Unoriginal]

Personally I'd argue that, if the two emperors can't agree to say "no war between us", the most rational thing to do is to find a benevolent being who can maintain the barrier (or an item with the same power), and dispose of the demon.

[PeteNutButter]

Well I think I've got it figured out mostly... It's been a pretty heavy political campaign.

Both sides have been preparing for war, but the side the PCs are on is probably in a losing position. In his haste to prepare for the coming war the emperor has been seizing power and raising taxes on the people. This has caused tension and a civil war is beginning to brew, which has been incidentally fed by the PCs actions. Adding to the tension, the emperor allied with a powerful anti-magic-user faction for more troops in the coming war. It may seem like a bad idea alienating any magic users, but the entire other side is basically a continent where everyone has some sorcery in their blood.

The emperor probably wants a war, but not just yet. He has to make sure this civil war is prevented/resolved. At the very least he'd probably keep his intentions of war a secret, so he'll tell the PCs to keep the barrier going. BUT, since this build up to the war has been a major part of the campaign, it's basically going to happen one way or another. This feels like a great opportunity for one of the few remaining loyal mages to betray the emperor. The emperor sends said mage to teleport down there with a prisoner, and the mage would do something like free the demon to let the other side come in.

EDIT: If one of the PCs does decide to sacrifice him/herself, the barrier will remain strong, and the war will have to find another way around. Ultimately, it'll buy them more time to resolve the civil war issue.

[Finlam]

@PeteNutButter I'd give that plot a :thumbsup:

Just give the mage a memorable personality and turn him into a villain; the players should spite him and it will make hunting him (or her) down all the more satisfying for the players.

[Unoriginal]

Or you could have ...

the demon reveals he doesn't actually have to respect the contract that make him maintain the barrier (being a demon and not a devil) and that he actually doesn't want to maintain it for longer. He was just trying to get more souls for the job already done.

[Feuerphoenix]

No one took that bait at the moment. Although there is a fair chance someone may might message me between now and next session. I think the fact that the demon lord is a demon (CE) and not LE really made them hesitant.

This does not make sense. Why should a CE Char invest resources, when he is not directly profiting from them? Either your demon lord is interested in a greaser goal, or his barrier is there just for amusement. Version one is LE btw

[PeteNutButter]

This does not make sense. Why should a CE Char invest resources, when he is not directly profiting from them? Either your demon lord is interested in a greaser goal, or his barrier is there just for amusement. Version one is LE btw

I guess I didn’t make it clear that he isn’t doing so voluntarily. He is trapped and imprisoned, being used as a battery for the plot level spell making the barrier. Him starving is what’s causing it to weaken.

[LordEntrails]

Or maybe the emperor just doesn't replay? It's right back in their court if they don't get a response.

Maybe the spell didn't work, or he was somewhere doing something protected, etc.

[Unoriginal]

I guess I didn’t make it clear that he isn’t doing so voluntarily. He is trapped and imprisoned, being used as a battery for the plot level spell making the barrier. Him starving is what’s causing it to weaken.

Why would he tell them how to make the Barrier strong again, then? He'd be better off if it breaks

[Rakoa]

Why would he tell them how to make the Barrier strong again, then? He'd be better off if it breaks

He's not telling them how to make the barrier strong again. He's telling them to feed him because he's hungry. It is a beneficial side effect for the PCs that him being fed means the barrier stays strong, as it can then feed off of his demonic power.

[Unoriginal]

He's not telling them how to make the barrier strong again. He's telling them to feed him because he's hungry. It is a beneficial side effect for the PCs that him being fed means the barrier stays strong, as it can then feed off of his demonic power.

But if he starved a bit longer he'd be free.

[Afrodactyl]

It looks to me like the party sacrificing themselves to save the world, then carving their way through the nine hells to kick this demon lord up the butt and get their souls back could on the cards.

The demon lord didn't say he needed to keep them after all.

[Unoriginal]

It looks to me like the party sacrificing themselves to save the world, then carving their way through the nine hells to kick this demon lord up the butt and get their souls back could on the cards.

The demon lord didn't say he needed to keep them after all.

Demons don't live in Hell, and if you give your soul you die. Especially if the soul gets eaten, like the demon lord said.

[Afrodactyl]

Demons don't live in Hell, and if you give your soul you die. Especially if the soul gets eaten, like the demon lord said.

Boo. Spoiling my fun.

[PeteNutButter]

But if he starved a bit longer he'd be free.

He is trapped. Starving wouldn’t change that. The barrier would continue to drain him, even as it mostly deteriorated. Even if it could theoretically drain him completely, he’d still be in that magic circle.

At this point his priorities are 1) staying alive, 2) getting free, and potentially 3) torturing and murdering anyone involved in his imprisonement.

[GooeyChewie]

Well I think I've got it figured out mostly... It's been a pretty heavy political campaign.

Both sides have been preparing for war, but the side the PCs are on is probably in a losing position. In his haste to prepare for the coming war the emperor has been seizing power and raising taxes on the people. This has caused tension and a civil war is beginning to brew, which has been incidentally fed by the PCs actions. Adding to the tension, the emperor allied with a powerful anti-magic-user faction for more troops in the coming war. It may seem like a bad idea alienating any magic users, but the entire other side is basically a continent where everyone has some sorcery in their blood.

The emperor probably wants a war, but not just yet. He has to make sure this civil war is prevented/resolved. At the very least he'd probably keep his intentions of war a secret, so he'll tell the PCs to keep the barrier going. BUT, since this build up to the war has been a major part of the campaign, it's basically going to happen one way or another. This feels like a great opportunity for one of the few remaining loyal mages to betray the emperor. The emperor sends said mage to teleport down there with a prisoner, and the mage would do something like free the demon to let the other side come in.

EDIT: If one of the PCs does decide to sacrifice him/herself, the barrier will remain strong, and the war will have to find another way around. Ultimately, it'll buy them more time to resolve the civil war issue.

You know...

Nothing prevents a civil war like an honest-to-goodness war with an outside party. The Emperor could seek to unify his own kingdom by giving them a common enemy. And now that he knows when the barrier will go down, he can prepare for the war in order to get an advantage to even the odds.

[Darth Ultron]

How do you folks (DMs and players) play the game? Are you mere actors or protagonists?

I'm not sure where you see the big difference between the types. It depends a lot on the game type, the DM and the Players....and everyone being on the same page.

A lot of players at least say they want to be heroes, but then they won't play the game that way.

And a lot of DM want their players to be heroes, but then have the game of ''save old mister Mcberrys wagon''.

But in the case of Player Characters asking for help, there is an easy out: they get no help. So, like in this case, the Emperor can send back ''you are my eyes and earsand hands; you are there;I am not. Deal with this and make me proud."

And is there not a #4? Can't someone give up their soul willing?

[Elbeyon]

Demons don't live in Hell, and if you give your soul you die. Especially if the soul gets eaten, like the demon lord said.There isn't much saying that a person dies without their soul. Plenty of stories have dealt with a person trying to get back their soul, or living without it. It could be an interesting twist if any person they sacrifice doesn't die. Maybe, they could split the cost and each give up a fourth of their soul.

[Unoriginal]

There isn't much saying that a person dies without their soul.

Actually, there is. Look at the Lich's entry in the MM, for one exemple. Or the Magic Jar spell.



Plenty of stories have dealt with a person trying to get back their soul, or living without it.

That's not how 5e does it, though. OP can decide it is that way for their campaign, of course, but in that case they can also say that the Demon Lord is actually lawful neutral. Nothing is stopping them to change any part of the lore, but generally the assumption is that it fits what the edition establishes

[Elbeyon]

Actually, there is. Look at the Lich's entry in the MM, for one exemple. Or the Magic Jar spell.

That's not how 5e does it, though. OP can decide it is that way for their campaign, of course, but in that case they can also say that the Demon Lord is actually lawful neutral. Nothing is stopping them to change any part of the lore, but generally the assumption is that it fits what the edition establishesIt's not like there is a section in the book dedicated to the proprieties of souls. Those are both fine examples. I'll agree that the books like to kill characters without a soul. Maybe, all those examples, it's the process more than being soulless bit causing death.

The OP is already in charge of deciding everything since the book doesn't have rules for what is happening. 5e is very flexible that way. I'm simply saying it might be fun to mix things around a little.


To own a creature's soul is to have absolute control over that creature, and most devils accept no other currency in exchange for the fiendish power and boons they can provide. A soul is usually forfeited when a mortal dies naturally, for devils are immortal and can wait years for a contract to play out. If a contract allows a devil to claim a mortal's soul before death, it can instantly return to the Nine Hells with the soul in its possession. Only divine intervention can release a soul after a devil has claimed it.There very well may be existing lore that allows for a souless person.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm not sure where you see the big difference between the types. It depends a lot on the game type, the DM and the Players....and everyone being on the same page.

A lot of players at least say they want to be heroes, but then they won't play the game that way.

And a lot of DM want their players to be heroes, but then have the game of ''save old mister Mcberrys wagon''.

But in the case of Player Characters asking for help, there is an easy out: they get no help. So, like in this case, the Emperor can send back ''you are my eyes and earsand hands; you are there;I am not. Deal with this and make me proud."

And is there not a #4? Can't someone give up their soul willing?

To me the distinction is more as game as real life, or game as video game. In Skyrim for instance, you don't stop your quest and go ask your Jarl or Empire rep how to proceed. Your the player, so you just do whatever you want, without regard to the larger picture. So do you treat D&D like as close to a simulation as possible or do you just treat it like a video game that is in your heads?

[LeonBH]

To me, it depends on the campaign if you are the heroes or if you just happen to be there as the story unfolds around you. If you have a group of very passive players, then you will have to drag them along the plot. But if they are nefarious and scheming, they may try to outdo your schemes actively and create their own story.

I'm taking for granted that everyone is the hero of their own story, as your question is about how people run or play in their games.

For your specific situation, I'd advise you to offer them an answer that doesn't offload the weight of the decision from their shoulders. Something like "I can't ask you to start a war, and I can't ask you to kill an innocent. I know I am asking a lot from you, heroes, but will you give your lives to preserve the peace?"

Also, I think the fact they offloaded the choice on someone else means you didn't tie the choice to something they are personally invested in. Like, preventing war is good and all, but it's not like they sought out to prevent wars. They probably don't really care about the war or the peace.

Now imagine if you dangled a cool and shiny new magic item in front of them instead. Either they sacrifice an innocent soul to get a new item, or they don't and they lose the item forever. Assuming they care about alignment/innocent lives, and assuming they want the magic item really bad, this becomes a true dilemma that they cannot offload to someone else.

[ZorroGames]

To answer the OP, I play my characters as heroes. Most are heroic as in defeating evil, upholding just law and order, protecting my “important PC races” - human, dwarf, gnome, some elf societies, possibly halfling while not doing excess harm to “others.” Some more tribal or race focused or “racial foes” oriented but they are not so self centered to go out if their way to steal from the powerless or oppress the weak for self centered goals.

I may be blocked or defeated or even killed but a tool to be manipulated as a plot twist - no.

[Nettlekid]

I'm surprised no one has suggested this yet: If the demon is strong enough to stop the armies from going to war, then it's strong enough to win the war for one of the armies. If the Emperor the PCs just contacted is on the weaker, losing side, that Emperor might want to try to cut a deal with the demon to fight on his behalf. Maybe offer the souls of the slaughtered enemy army to the demon? Or heck, tell the demon it can have the PCs' souls if it fights for the Emperor, and it agrees, and the PCs fight or flee, and then ally with the rival Emperor for revenge against being betrayed.