Level 5 suggestions

[Lacy]

Hi. My friends are going to create a game. They play very hard and although I have material in my language there is a lot of material in English, a language I do not master or rather I barely dominate. I need to become a level 5 character and even though I have some sight, I do not know if it will fit. Can someone suggest any ideas?
(google translations)

[Mike Miller]

Can you provide any more details of the campaign? What source books are available? What classes are the other players? How optimized are you looking for?

[Lacy]

the campaign may have a relationship with demons and undead. at the moment there is no cleric and I could not be (I would explain a lot explaining why). All books are accepted. the optimized, an intermediate point
(google translation)

[Afgncaap5]

Do you have any preference for the kind of class you'd like to play as? Most classes could offer some fun bonuses against undead or demons but it depends on how you wanna play it. Wizards always have options, A ranger who hunts the undead and evil outsiders would definitely have some work to do, paladins are nice for standing against evil... basically, it's hard to go wrong.

Heck, even the Monk, frequent candidate for worst class in most online opinion polls, can play the part well. I had a friend tear through a Ravenloft campaign with a Monk who made liberal use of the Touch of Golden Ice (once we hammered out a decision about how the feat actually worked that everyone could live with...)

[jmax]

If you want to keep things simple and make it possible to work entirely with materials in your native language, you can be very effective with just a straight-up druid even with just Core material (assuming that's available in your language). Starting at level 5 means starting with Wild Shape, so you skip the awkward levels where you mostly live vicariously through your animal companion.

I still highly recommend using spells and feats and magic items from non-Core material - it's a considerable power boost. But you won't need it unless in a very high-optimization party.

Druids don't have anything particularly special against undead until fairly late in the game (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunbeam.htm) or at all against demons, but they're all-around effective enough that you should be able to hold your own.

EDIT: For recommendations on spells, feats, items, etc., eggynack's druid handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook) is great. Unfortunately I don't think he's translated it into any other languages, but it's a great resource and should at least give you a nice staring point.

[Zaq]

What books other than the Player’s Handbook are you comfortable using?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Player's Handbook has the spell Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) which automatically takes control of any mindless undead you use it on. So I would recommend some sort of Sorcerer or Wizard build, Wizard is better. You can even get it on a wand if you don't want to spend a lot of spell slots on it.

Make the character a Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) from the core Monster Manual, put your highest stats in Intelligence, Constitution, and Dexterity. Make a Wizard specialized in Conjuration, with Enchantment and Evocation as prohibited schools. Player's Handbook 2 has the Immediate Magic alternate class feature in Chapter 2, which is amazing for Conjuration. Google can help you find several Batman Wizard and God Wizard guides that should have all the information you need to make this a useful character.

[Jormengand]

In an intermediately optimised game, the options in the three ordinary books are usually able to work well. A fighter or monk may not be good enough and are difficult to play well. Any of the other classes are usually good enough but if there are many undead a rogue will not be so good. If there are no clerics a paladin may be good against undead because they have the "Smite Evil", "Lay on Hands" and "Turn Undead" abilities which allow them to do a lot of damage to undead or make the undead run away. A wizard or druid or sorcerer is always good and a barbarian or ranger or bard is usually okay. If you have the spells in the player's handbook in your language then you should be able to play a wizard, druid, sorcerer, paladin, ranger or bard well. If you do not have access to the spells in your language then you should probably play a barbarian. You do not need to use any books other than the player's handbook but they do make a paladin or ranger a lot stronger if you are worried that they will not be strong enough.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, so I am going to suggest something a little fun and crazy. If you are playing in a demon and undead heavy game I suggest playing a cleric. More specifically I suggest playing a Cleric of Torm, the god of duty and honor. Take the Domain spontaneity ACF to replace your ability to cast spontaneous cure spells with spontaneous spells from the war domain. Then take the versatile spellcaster feat so you can sacrifice 2 3rd level spells to cast divine power.

You gain proficiency in your god's favored weapon (a greatsword). This is a solid weapon to melee with, so pick up a holy greatsword, or if you cannot afford that, bane (outsider, evil) to be an effective weapon VS demons. Holy is also great VS undead, but ideally you want a +1 holy undead and outsider (evil) bane greatsword for +4d6 and +4 to hit for both undead and evil outsiders.

Your stats should be Str > Wis > Con > Cha > Dex > Int. You act as a support melee combatant, using turn undead to keep groups of weak undead at bay while the party damage dealer kills the big ones or by attacking high value undead or demon targets yourself.

Save your 3rd level spells because when you run into a big boss fight you can cast Divine power on yourself to turn into melee killer.

Feats -
1st - Versatile Spellcaster
3rd - Power Attack

Race - Ether human or dwarf

At 7th level you will have access to divine power naturally as a 4th level spell and can burn 3rd level spells for additional uses. Remember, you can cast it spontaniously so never prepare it. Rather fill those slots with other spells that may be needed, but not things you will use frequently.

[Jormengand]

Ok, so I am going to suggest something a little fun and crazy. If you are playing in a demon and undead heavy game I suggest playing a cleric.
at the moment there is no cleric and I could not be (I would explain a lot explaining why).

Sample Text.

[Fouredged Sword]

Sample Text.

Missed the note about no cleric.

[Lacy]

Thank you all for answering.
I go by order:
Afgncaap5: I played with magician, but the problem was that I was overwhelmed by the amount of spells available. Even so, I did not get the damage that my companions, and my companions, asked me for more damage. so I became a sorcerer maximizing to do as much damage as possible. the damage was quite considerable.

the monk you mention, I can not base the character on an interpretation of rules, besides that it would be unethical.

jmax: if I'm honest, a druid escapes me a little from my understanding. I have to read the guide you have put.

Zaq: for being comfortable, the player's handbook, but for example the compendium spells, is essential, adding others. summarizing any book I'm worth, even in English, I would translate the necessary part with patience. an example of problem for me with material in English excuse, would be if I become a magician with Master Transmogrifist, (class prestige of the complete arcana) would have to see several manual monster in another language looking for good transformations and for me it is very hard.

Biffoniacus_Furiou: I take note of both spells, I thought they had the malignant descriptor.
I also take note of the gray elf, who did not know him. The magician that you have indicated to me I am looking at the rhythm of translation-understand it.

Jormengand: The option of a paladin, I had already thought about it and it's fine, but I see it compliant for its interpretation
There is material in my language, but I have found in untranslated books, many interesting and even impressive things, especially combining things in my language and in English.
the barbarian also I have contemplated for its simplicity, both mechanics and interpretation, although the ranger, I do not see its potential

Fouredged Sword: thanks for the contribution, I think a clergyman is a very good contribution, but this time, not for me.

Thanks again everyone for the effort.

[Fouredged Sword]

One interesting build is a scout/ranger going with the swift hunter feat. At level 6 you pick up the swift hunter as a feat. As long as you took undead as a favored enemy you can skirmish them despite their immunity.

Use a bow and slowly move to greater manyshot. The build is scout 3 / ranger 17.

[jmax]

jmax: if I'm honest, a druid escapes me a little from my understanding. I have to read the guide you have put.

The beautiful thing about druid is that, build-wise, it's really hard to screw up. Arrange your stats for WIS > CON > INT > CHA > DEX > STR, take Natural Spell at 6th level, and go to town. Your STR and DEX get replaced with your Wild Shape form's numbers (CON too, but you keep your own hit points, so you can't safely dump it). The only permanent choices you can get stuck with are your stats, your feats, and your skills. Everything else you can change at sunrise every (in-game) day.

It is a full caster, which means there are lots of options to keep track of, but as a divine caster, you can change out your spells every day. It's very forgiving. You can also convert any spell to summon nature's ally on the fly, so even for the day you picked a lousy spell, you can still turn it into something very useful. Eggynack's guide will help you pick good spells, too. And you could theoretically go several levels with just Wild Shape and summon spells and still be plenty effective.

You can pick a lousy animal companion (although eggynack's guide will help prevent that as well), but if it turns out to be awful, you can just dismiss it and summon a new one with a ceremony that costs nothing but 24 hours of in-game time. If it gets killed, same thing - mechanically, they're disposable.

The hardest part is computing your stats in Wild Shape, but you only have to do this once per form. Just pick a few good forms from eggynack's guide and stat those out in advance. Whatever you do, don't try to wing it and figure out your stats on the fly mid-combat, because you'll grind the game to a screeching halt.


Jormengand: The option of a paladin, I had already thought about it and it's fine, but I see it compliant for its interpretation

If your DM allows it, the Pathfinder implementation of paladin is much better than 3.5s. 3.5 paladins are all but unplayable. If your DM balks at the inclusion of Pathfinder material, point out how much less gamebreaking the Pathfinder paladin is relative to the 3.5 druid :-P

[Jormengand]

If your DM allows it, the Pathfinder implementation of paladin is much better than 3.5s. 3.5 paladins are all but unplayable. If your DM balks at the inclusion of Pathfinder material, point out how much less gamebreaking the Pathfinder paladin is relative to the 3.5 druid :-P

The 3.5 paladin is not anywhere near "All but unplayable." At the very worst it is still better than a fighter or a monk and if you other sourcebooks, the feats "Serenity", "Battle Blessing" and "Sword of the Arcane Order" as well as the Mystic Fire Knight substitution levels allow you a good number of quickened wizard spells before the wizard gets the same quickened wizard spells and also you do not need Charisma. In the core books the paladin is better than the fighter or monk and about as good as the ranger or rogue or barbarian. In the whole game the paladin is much better than all of them.



Lacy, I recommend the ranger, paladin or barbarian because with the paladin or ranger you have some spells so you are not too boring to play but you do not have too many spells so it is not too hard to read them all, and with the barbarian you can deal a lot of damage and you have a rage ability which can do more damage. The paladin also has a few useful class abilities and if you are a paladin or ranger you have an animal who helps you, and you can ride your animal if you are a paladin so you can use a lance. If you have the "Spirited Charge" feat you can use your paladin's charge attack with a lance to do triple damage, which is a very strong option in the core rules and means that you do not need to buy a horse and the horse is much stronger than a normal one. The ranger has many skills, though, and the ranger is good when you are not fighting in combat, a bit like the rogue but not as much.

[Zaq]

The beautiful thing about druid is that, build-wise, it's really hard to screw up. Arrange your stats for WIS > CON > INT > CHAT > DEX > STR, take Natural Spell at 6th level, and go to town. Your STR and DEX get replaced with your Wild Shape form's numbers (CON too, but you keep your own hit points, so you can't safely dump it). The only permanent choices you can get stuck with are your stats, your feats, and your skills. Everything else you can change at sunrise every (in-game) day.

It is a full caster, which means there are lots of options to keep track of, but as a divine caster, you can change out your spells every day. It's very forgiving. You can also convert any spell to summon nature's ally on the fly, so even for the day you picked a lousy spell, you can still turn it into something very useful. Eggynack's guide will help you pick good spells, too. And you could theoretically go several levels with just Wild Shape and summon spells and still be plenty effective.

You can pick a lousy animal companion (although eggynack's guide will help prevent that as well), but if it turns out to be awful, you can just dismiss it and summon a new one with a ceremony that costs nothing but 24 hours of in-game time. If it gets killed, same thing - mechanically, they're disposable.

The hardest part is computing your stats in Wild Shape, but you only have to do this once per form. Just pick a few good forms from eggynack's guide and stat those out in advance. Whatever you do, don't try to wing it and figure out your stats on the fly mid-combat, because you'll grind the game to a screeching halt.



If your DM allows it, the Pathfinder implementation of paladin is much better than 3.5s. 3.5 paladins are all but unplayable. If your DM balks at the inclusion of Pathfinder material, point out how much less gamebreaking the Pathfinder paladin is relative to the 3.5 druid :-P


If Monster Manual diving is difficult (see the Master Transmogrifist example), Druid is still very strong, but I can respect why it might not be a fun choice. Yes, there are fewer animals than other monsters, but even so.

As for actual suggestions . . . Dragonfire Adept, which we often call just DFA, is in Dragon Magic. You really only need material from two books to play a good DFA: you need Dragon Magic itself, and you want the feat Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. DFA is very simple to build—you will pick some breath effects and some invocations, and then you’re pretty much set. Once everything is written on your sheet, you won’t need to check the book much. It’s fun and effective. The downside is that many demons resist the common damage types a DFA can use (at level 5, you’ll have fire and you’ll likely have either cold or electric), so in a demon-heavy campaign, you won’t do as much damage. You’ll mostly contribute with Slow Breath and other status effects. But you’ll work fine against most undead.

Tome of Battle classes are very strong, but translating all of their maneuvers might be more work than you want to do. I don’t know how fast you are at translating, but I would find that daunting.

Spellthief is in Complete Adventurer. It works well against demons because Steal Spell-Like Ability is excellent (and Steal Energy Resistance can also be useful). However, it works poorly against undead. If you have a friendly magician in the party who lets you borrow their spells with Steal Spell (this is good for them because the spells get cast twice as fast), you can still be useful even against undead. Most choices that are good on a Rogue are good on a Spellthief. Spellthief can have a lot of cool tricks and can do a lot outside of combat, too. The only hard part is keeping them alive, as they usually have poor defense.

Are you allowed to be a caster similar to a Cleric but not really a Cleric? The Favored Soul in Complete Divine casts Cleric spells, but it is not a Cleric.

At level 5, even a simple Barbarian is still effective, unless you find it to be boring.

Is this helpful, Lacy? If anything I am saying is difficult to translate or understand, please let me know and I’ll try to explain it differently. I do not know how tough the language barrier is.

[jmax]

The 3.5 paladin is not anywhere near "All but unplayable." At the very worst it is still better than a fighter or a monk and if you other sourcebooks, the feats "Serenity", "Battle Blessing" and "Sword of the Arcane Order" as well as the Mystic Fire Knight substitution levels allow you a good number of quickened wizard spells before the wizard gets the same quickened wizard spells and also you do not need Charisma. In the core books the paladin is better than the fighter or monk and about as good as the ranger or rogue or barbarian. In the whole game the paladin is much better than all of them.


Ok, "unplayable" is an exaggeration. But it fares very poorly without an awful lot of TLC. It does also depend a lot on what kind of game and party you play with - if you're playing without any full casters and never fighting full casters, it's a lot more forgiving. Until you run into any enemy that can fly :-P

For my personal play style, I definitely feel that I would not enjoy a 3.5 core-only paladin but could have a lot of fun with a Pathfinder paladin. That is, of course, an opinion and relevant only to my own context.

[Jormengand]

Ok, "unplayable" is an exaggeration. But it fares very poorly without an awful lot of TLC. It does also depend a lot on what kind of game and party you play with - if you're playing without any full casters and never fighting full casters, it's a lot more forgiving. Until you run into any enemy that can fly :-P

For my personal play style, I definitely feel that I would not enjoy a 3.5 core-only paladin but could have a lot of fun with a Pathfinder paladin. That is, of course, an opinion and relevant only to my own context.

I have no idea what "TLC" even stands for.

Given that Lacy said an intermediate level of optimisation (not intermediate for Giant in the Playground because there are some players who are not wizards or clerics or druids) and paladins have access to bows and "Divine Favour" and/or "Magic Weapon", they are a lot more useful than barbarians who have access to bows and... rage, which is not useful unless you keep two different composite weapons for rage and nonrage or they use a throwing weapon which is not such a good idea at a long range. They are also often more useful than rogues or monks or even fighters when using a bow. Sometimes they are more useful at range, in fact. No, they are not as good as sorcerers and wizards. Nobody is as good as sorcerers and wizards.

Also, if there are no clerics and nobody is playing a druid because they are very complicated somebody should play a paladin so that there is a member of the party who has access to healing using "Lay on Hands" and their spells because the ranger and bard do not have such good healing without using many bard spells which should be used for other things, and the monk and wizard and sorcerer cannot heal other party members and without magic item use the rogue and fighter and barbarian cannot heal at all. In parties which are not so experienced it is useful to have someone who can heal (or at least who has the spell "Cure Light Wounds" on their class spell list so you do not have to use the "Use Magic Device" skill to use it), and the paladin has a somewhat useful ability to heal.

[ericgrau]

Sorcerer is easier than wizard. I agree. The main thing is picking the right spells and then you can have fun. If you pick the wrong spells then it is hard to fix. Except cantrips (level 0) aren't as important.

Human or gnome sorcerer 5:
Spells:
Level 0 (6 known): Detect magic, light, mage hand, message (cast at entrance of dungeons), open/close, prestidigitation
Level 1 (4 known): mage armor, swift expeditious retreat (spell compendium), shocking grasp, nerveskitter (spell compendium).
Level 2 (2 known): web, flaming sphere. If there will be undead for most fights and not just sometimes, then get command undead in place of flaming sphere (and don't get flaming sphere later either).

Future spells:
Level 0: Not important.
Level 1: Benign transposition (spell compendium), unseen servant, feather fall. Trade places of ally with your familiar. Remove shocking grasp. Remove swift expeditious retreat after getting swift fly.
Level 2: command undead, swift fly, false life, bull's strength, invisibility, craft magic tattoo (spell compendium). Remove flaming sphere.
Level 3: scintillating sphere (spell compendium), sleet storm, haste or mass snake's swiftness (spell compendium), anticipate teleport, halt undead. Halt undead much earlier or first if there will be undead for most fights and not just sometimes. Later get greater magic weapon, magic circle against evil and remove scintillating sphere.
Level 4: Wall of fire, solid fog, Evard's black tentacles, resilient sphere, dimension door, wall of ice. Wall of fire much later or never if there aren't very many undead. Remember it does double damage to undead. Greater invisibility 2nd or 3rd if your group has a rogue. For solid fog, Evard's black tentacles, resilient sphere and wall of ice you probably only want to pick 2 or 3 of them because of similarity. It depends on terrain and number of enemies.

Ability scores: Consitution > charisma > everything else. Except minimum 14 charisma. If fights are mostly undead, then charisma > constitution > everything else. If so also select human with the feats spell focus (necromancy) and greater spell focus (necromancy).

Scrolls (total cost 1,325 gp):
3 protection from evil. Or no scrolls and use this to replace feather fall above. Prevents summoned monsters with claws or bite or other body attacks from attacking the target. Suppresses mind control.
4 (or equal to size of your group) endure elements.
3 obscuring mist. For running away.
1 mount. For a big heavy horse with a lot of HP to walk in traps for you.
3 identify (3x125 gp = 375 gp)
1 disguise self
1 expeditious retreat
2 Tenser's floating disk, caster level 3 (2 x 75 gp = 150 gp)
1 magic weapon.
1 comprehend languages
2 detect undead
2 hold portal. To block doors.
1 jump
2 greater mage hand (Spell Compendium)
2 magic missile, caster level 5 (2 x 125 gp = 250 gp). Don't be afraid to use fast and replace if you get a good opportunity. Like to finish off a badly hurt foe that is still a problem, or to hurt incorporeal undead.

Strategy: Read your spells carefully before you play so you will know how to use them later.

Cast mage armor and false life in the morning. Try to keep up 24 hours at higher levels. For now try for 8 or more hours. A lesser rod of extend spell can help.

Read the familiar rules carefully on sharing spells. Give him shocking grasp before a fight begins. When the fight begins in round 1, let him use shocking grasp to attack and then cast a spell. Later change to bull's strength, then greater invisibility if your group has a rogue. Also give your familiar false life later.

Also note most of the spell compendium spells listed are a little stronger than the Player's Handbook spells. I assume your group is ok with this since they probably use spell compendium too. But if not you could leave them out.

Have fun!



Also, if there are no clerics and nobody is playing a druid because they are very complicated somebody should play a paladin so that there is a member of the party who has access to healing using "Lay on Hands" and their spells because the ranger and bard do not have such good healing without using many bard spells which should be used for other things, and the monk and wizard and sorcerer cannot heal other party members and without magic item use the rogue and fighter and barbarian cannot heal at all. In parties which are not so experienced it is useful to have someone who can heal (or at least who has the spell "Cure Light Wounds" on their class spell list so you do not have to use the "Use Magic Device" skill to use it), and the paladin has a somewhat useful ability to heal.
I think it is important for someone to get a wand of cure light wounds (EDIT: or lesser vigor) but not important enough to pick your class based on it. 1/3 the classes can do this automatically. Or use magic device works fine because you can keep rerolling, with class or cross class ranks. In that case a 2nd or 3rd wand is helpful in case that person rolls a 1.

[jmax]

I have no idea what "TLC" even stands for.


Sorry, that's probably more idiomatic than I realized. Tender Loving Care. Basically needing a fair bit of attention - for example, certain plants and flowers that can be made to grow outside their normal environments but need lots of assistance to do so, or that just don't grow well in any environment.



Given that Lacy said an intermediate level of optimisation <snip>

I was thinking in comparison to something more like bard or rogue than cleric, wizard, or druid in terms of power and flexibility. I suggested druid not to push maximum optimization but because it's very forgiving if you don't want to worry about optimizing (provided you don't mind pre-computing the stats). A druid who just spontaneously casts summon nature's ally whenever not fighting with Wild Shape is still plenty effective, and you can start using other spells as you become comfortable with them from experimentation.

The point about healing if nobody wants to play a caster is a good one, although a bard or rogue can UMD wands of lesser vigor for hit point healing.

It's also entirely possible that my experience has been colored by a campaign in which the frequent companion NPC paladin has been laughably useless to the point that it's become a running gag. We should probably take it to a new thread if you want to discuss further though - we're getting a bit far afield on the tangent.

[Jormengand]

-

Shocking grasp is not such a good spell because you must be right next to an enemy to cast it, and you must take a DC 16 concentration check to cast defensively which is not so easy, or you must take an attack of opportunity which is bad and then you will need another concentration check anyway if it misses. I would take burning hands so that you can hit multiple creatures without having to stand very close to them, or magic missile to prevent needing to go very close to the enemies at all.

Flaming sphere is not such a good spell because you cannot move and still use it properly and it is not useful against any creature which moves faster than the sphere. It is not so good against creatures who can fly more than 30 feet up. Because fire resistance happens every time it does damage it is not good at all if the enemy has a little bit of fire resistance. The touch attack for scorching ray should be a lot easier than making an enemy fail the reflex save for flaming sphere.

Bull's strength is not such a good spell because if you are a sorcerer in combat you are doing it wrong and there are better things to use your spells on than making your fighter less bad. Glitterdust is a spell that I would want to have at second level especially if you do not have see invisibility because many undead are invisible and undead are immune to many things but are not immune to being blinded.

False life is not such a good spell because if you are taking real damage then you are doing it wrong. You probably prefer to learn spells which prevent you from taking damage, such as protection from energy, and not spells which give you pretend hit points for a while.

Wall of Ice is not such a good spell because it does not have so many hit points and so it will maybe block creatures for a round. I would use black tentacles because it usually provides a very strong grapple against enemies. For example it has a stronger grapple at level 8 than a mohrg which is an undead with challenge rating 8. If the mohrg is grappled then you can still attack it. Also if you are fighting many skeletons then they will break the wall together but if grappled they will have a bad day.

Constitution is not as good as charisma because if you have charisma you have stronger spells and more spells. You should have dexterity before intelligence and wisdom and strength and possibly even constitution because if you go first then you will have a good day and if enemies hit you with weapon attacks then you will have a bad day and if you are pointing towards the ground you will not go to space today (https://xkcd.com/1133/).

[ericgrau]

Shocking grasp is not such a good spell because you must be right next to an enemy to cast it, and you must take a DC 16 concentration check to cast defensively which is not so easy, or you must take an attack of opportunity which is bad and then you will need another concentration check anyway if it misses.
It's for the familiar only. Ditto for bull's strength. See bottom of post.

Flaming sphere is great damage at level 5 then he can swap it out at the first opportunity. 99% chance he will not deal with resistance or SR at his level unless it's 100% demon fights.



False life is not such a good spell because if you are taking real damage then you are doing it wrong. You probably prefer to learn spells which prevent you from taking damage, such as protection from energy, and not spells which give you pretend hit points for a while.

Wall of Ice is not such a good spell because it does not have so many hit points and so it will maybe block creatures for a round. I would use black tentacles because it usually provides a very strong grapple against enemies. For example it has a stronger grapple at level 8 than a mohrg which is an undead with challenge rating 8. If the mohrg is grappled then you can still attack it. Also if you are fighting many skeletons then they will break the wall together but if grappled they will have a bad day.

Constitution is not as good as charisma because if you have charisma you have stronger spells and more spells. You should have dexterity before intelligence and wisdom and strength and possibly even constitution because if you go first then you will have a good day and if enemies hit you with weapon attacks then you will have a bad day and if you are pointing towards the ground you will not go to space today (https://xkcd.com/1133/).
Protection from energy is complete garbage for the next 4-5 levels. It's a waste of a round and often you'll get hit with the energy before you cast it. False life is epic because you cast it in the morning. Action economy is king. I'll add to strategy section for the OP.

Wall of ice: Most fights last about 3 rounds before cleanup phase, so a round is a long time. The hemisphere option means you can almost always block at least 1 creature regardless of terrain. Worst case scenario you can keep trading rounds with a super scary monster until your allies are done with the weaker monster. Also makes nice bridges for utility. There are better spells listed first though, and I can't believe I forgot black tentacles (also better). I'll go add it in.

I put constitution over charisma because charisma doesn't actually make the listed spells stronger, nor give any more spells known. It just gives more spells per day and sorcerers already get plenty. Even the couple it does help on are pretty good on a passed save. In the case of the necromancy spells it does help and then I put charisma first.

[Jormengand]

It's for the familiar only. Ditto for bull's strength. See bottom of post.

Flaming sphere is great damage at level 5 then he can swap it out at the first opportunity. 99% chance he will not deal with resistance or SR at his level unless it's 100% demon fights.

Using deliver touch spells and share spells with shocking grasp and bull's strength and false life on a bird which dies very easily and does not want to be in combat is not such a good idea and if your bird dies you will have a very bad day. If you are trying to play a very specific sorcerer that uses your bird to kill people then shocking grasp is a way to do it but it is not such a good type of sorcerer because your bird has seven hit points and you are wasting point buy points if you are giving your bird more hit points and not casting additional spells every day or going first. You do not want your bird to be hit with sticks and die and people probably often hit birds if those birds just cast very painful spells on them and their friends.

False life will give your bird some hit points but it is not usually enough hit points to survive being next to all the people who want to hit your bird with sticks.


It's for the familiar only. Ditto for bull's strength. See bottom of post.

Flaming sphere is great damage at level 5 then he can swap it out at the first opportunity. 99% chance he will not deal with resistance or SR at his level unless it's 100% demon fights.


Protection from energy is complete garbage for the next 4-5 levels. It's a waste of a round and often you'll get hit with the energy before you cast it. False life is epic because you cast it in the morning. Action economy is king. I'll add to strategy section for the OP.

Wall of ice: Most fights last about 3 rounds before cleanup phase, so a round is a long time. The hemisphere option means you can almost always block at least 1 creature regardless of terrain. Worst case scenario you can keep trading rounds with a super scary monster until your allies are done with the weaker monster. Also makes nice bridges for utility. There are better spells listed first though, and I can't believe I forgot black tentacles (also better). I'll go add it in.

I put constitution over charisma because charisma doesn't actually make the listed spells stronger, nor give any more spells known. It just gives more spells per day and sorcerers already get plenty. Even the couple it does help on are pretty good on a passed save. In the case of the necromancy spells it does help and then I put charisma first.

Flaming sphere is not such a good spell for the reasons I listed.

Protection from energy will protect you from mutliple people burning you with fire, and not one. It also lasts for very long. However I meant resist energy. Both last for more than one combat becuase they last for at least half an hour so you do not spend actions in combat. If at level 3 you are burned with fire twice then energy resistance will prevent 20 damage and not 8. If you are burned more times with fire then you will not have such a bad day if you use energy resistance.

Trading actions with your strongest spells is not such a good use of your fourth level spells especially if you do not have so many of them because you wasted your points making your bird not die.

[ericgrau]

Using deliver touch spells and share spells with shocking grasp and bull's strength and false life on a bird which dies very easily and does not want to be in combat is not such a good idea and if your bird dies you will have a very bad day. If you are trying to play a very specific sorcerer that uses your bird to kill people then shocking grasp is a way to do it but it is not such a good type of sorcerer because your bird has seven hit points and you are wasting point buy points if you are giving your bird more hit points and not casting additional spells every day or going first. You do not want your bird to be hit with sticks and die and people probably often hit birds if those birds just cast very painful spells on them and their friends.

False life will give your bird some hit points but it is not usually enough hit points to survive being next to all the people who want to hit your bird with sticks.

Since it's one hit and withdraw it works pretty well on a familiar and he survives. I've done it before. Once I had false life I actually kept it around longer to try to taunt the enemy into attacking. Also 1 or 2 less attacks against the party helps a lot.

Plus xp is a river and action economy is king. An extra spell at the first round of a fight is beyond amazing. In the extremely unlikely event that your familiar is killed (or even attacked among the 4 greater threats), you'll soon get back all the lost xp. It's well worth it. Though mine never dropped.

[Jormengand]

Since it's one hit and withdraw it works pretty well on a familiar and he survives. I've done it before. Once I had false life I actually kept it around longer to try to taunt the enemy into another attack. Also 1 or 2 less attacks against the party helps a lot.

Also xp is a river and action economy is king. An extra spell at the first round of a fight is beyond amazing. In the extremely unlikely event that your familiar is killed (or even attacked among the 4 greater threats), you'll soon get back all the lost xp. It's well worth it.

"XP is a river" but you will still not go to the next level today but your allies will go to the next level and you will be sad. Also you have wasted your spells on a bird who will not be back for a year, so you have shocking grasp and bull's strength and false life but they are bad and you do not want to cast them. If you do not cast bull's strength at a good time you also waste a spell because you have to do it within a few minutes of a combat. Also your bird does not have such a good attack bonus so they will often miss even if they are given the bull's strength spell (because they will still probably only have an attack bonus equal to your base attack bonus which is not so high) so you have wasted more than one spell.

"Action economy is king" but if you waste all your spells then you will be using your actions to fire crossbows and you will not be such a king.

[ericgrau]

Protection from energy will protect you from mutliple people burning you with fire, and not one. It also lasts for very long. However I meant resist energy. Both last for more than one combat becuase they last for at least half an hour so you do not spend actions in combat. If at level 3 you are burned with fire twice then energy resistance will prevent 20 damage and not 8. If you are burned more times with fire then you will not have such a bad day if you use energy resistance.
Zero people burning you is more likely in actual practice. You usually can't predict when to use it 60 minutes in advance, nor which type to use. You'll likely get hit by the energy before using it. And even if you pass your knowledge check and win initiative, you just wasted a round that could have been better spent on a better spell. It's nearly useless in practice. At level 10 he might want to take it as a minor spell.

Like I said, all of this works in actual practice. Both in counting which scenarios he's more likely to actually face and my 4 real sorcerers. Corner cases are meaningless.

[Jormengand]

Zero people burning you is more likely in actual practice. You usually can't predict when to use it 60 minutes in advance, nor which type to use. You'll likely get hit by the energy before using it. And even if you pass your knowledge check and win initiative, you just wasted a round that could have been better spent on a better spell. It's nearly useless in practice. At level 10 he might want to take it as a minor spell.

Like I said, all of this works in actual practice. Corner cases are meaningless.

In my experience being resistant to energy is better than eight fake hit points and people missing with a +2 attack bonus or running out of spells because they used them stupidly is not a "Corner case". Knowing that there will be many monsters which use fire in the fire temple or that there will be enemies which use lightning in the sky kingdom or ther there will be spellcasters who use fire freaking everywhere is not a corner case.

EDIT: At level 5 if you have four combats you will use EVERY second-level spell doing this familiar trick, and have 3 first-level spells left. IF you do not have to refresh your false hit points life. You will be firing crossbows by the second combat. If it "Works differently" for you then your DM is letting you rest Neverwinter Nights-style.

[ATHATH]

If I may ask, what is your first language, Lacy? Someone here might also have the same first language, which means that they could act as a translator (presumably, a better translator than Google Translate is). We might also be able to point you to books that were printed in your native language.

[Lacy]

Hello everyone and Merry Christmas. As soon as I have time I will answer, we are on dates of many family duties and therefore lack of time

[Lacy]

One interesting build is a scout/ranger going with the swift hunter feat. At level 6 you pick up the swift hunter as a feat. As long as you took undead as a favored enemy you can skirmish them despite their immunity.

Use a bow and slowly move to greater manyshot. The build is scout 3 / ranger 17.

the feat is quite good I will keep this combination in mind.


The beautiful thing about druid is that, build-wise, it's really hard to screw up. Arrange your stats for WIS > CON > INT > CHAT > DEX > STR, take Natural Spell at 6th level, and go to town. Your STR and DEX get replaced with your Wild Shape form's numbers (CON too, but you keep your own hit points, so you can't safely dump it). The only permanent choices you can get stuck with are your stats, your feats, and your skills. Everything else you can change at sunrise every (in-game) day.

I have to see the Eggynack's guide with more time, since it is quite large, but it will help me to learn about the druids even if I do not select it in the end.



If your DM allows it, the Pathfinder implementation of paladin is much better than 3.5s. 3.5 paladins are all but unplayable. If your DM balks at the inclusion of Pathfinder material, point out how much less gamebreaking the Pathfinder paladin is relative to the 3.5 druid :-P

He does not leave me, thanks.


Lacy, I recommend the ranger, paladin or barbarian because with the paladin or ranger you have some spells so you are not too boring to play but you do not have too many spells so it is not too hard to read them all, and with the barbarian you can deal a lot of damage and you have a rage ability which can do more damage. The paladin also has a few useful class abilities and if you are a paladin or ranger you have an animal who helps you, and you can ride your animal if you are a paladin so you can use a lance. If you have the "Spirited Charge" feat you can use your paladin's charge attack with a lance to do triple damage, which is a very strong option in the core rules and means that you do not need to buy a horse and the horse is much stronger than a normal one. The ranger has many skills, though, and the ranger is good when you are not fighting in combat, a bit like the rogue but not as much.

I have preselecionado the explorer as well as barbaro.
In another game we have a paladin and the damage it does against evil creatures is impressive, not to mention the salvations ...
but I think another paladin would be too repetitive. Even so, I think it's a good idea.
On the other hand the mount in open terrain is very good, conditioned to the speed of the group. If you enter dungeons or buildings, you will not have a mount.


As for actual suggestions . . . Dragonfire Adept, which we often call just DFA, is in Dragon Magic. You really only need material from two books to play a good DFA: you need Dragon Magic itself, and you want the feat Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. DFA is very simple to build—you will pick some breath effects and some invocations, and then you’re pretty much set. Once everything is written on your sheet, you won’t need to check the book much. It’s fun and effective. The downside is that many demons resist the common damage types a DFA can use (at level 5, you’ll have fire and you’ll likely have either cold or electric), so in a demon-heavy campaign, you won’t do as much damage. You’ll mostly contribute with Slow Breath and other status effects. But you’ll work fine against most undead.

I think he's going to see more demons than living dead, since the adventure is between two seasons of another campaign and there was an invasion of demons ... although I will take note since I did not know the book


Tome of Battle classes are very strong, but translating all of their maneuvers might be more work than you want to do. I don’t know how fast you are at translating, but I would find that daunting.
surprisingly the take of battle, is in my language, they gave it to me, that's why I have it as a viable option



Spellthief is in Complete Adventurer. It works well against demons because Steal Spell-Like Ability is excellent (and Steal Energy Resistance can also be useful). However, it works poorly against undead. If you have a friendly magician in the party who lets you borrow their spells with Steal Spell (this is good for them because the spells get cast twice as fast), you can still be useful even against undead. Most choices that are good on a Rogue are good on a Spellthief. Spellthief can have a lot of cool tricks and can do a lot outside of combat, too. The only hard part is keeping them alive, as they usually have poor defense.
I liked this class a lot, I have to analyze it in depth.



Is this helpful, Lacy? If anything I am saying is difficult to translate or understand, please let me know and I’ll try to explain it differently. I do not know how tough the language barrier is.
Thank you very much, I think I understand everyone perfectly. thank you very much.


Sorcerer is easier than wizard. I agree. The main thing is picking the right spells and then you can have fun. If you pick the wrong spells then it is hard to fix. Except cantrips (level 0) aren't as important.
I also think that a sorcerer is easier, but even faster in the game. I take into account what you have put on as a sorcerer, since I am discovering new things like the craft magic tattoo that I passed over ... what a mistake on my part.
in the previous game I was wearing a sorcerer and I think it's better to change for other roles


If I may ask, what is your first language, Lacy? Someone here might also have the same first language, which means that they could act as a translator (presumably, a better translator than Google Translate is). We might also be able to point you to books that were printed in your native language.
I am Spanish, I have quite a few books in Spanish, but others did not come out in my language and I had not even heard them mentioned as, for example, Dragon Magic before mentioning. Do you understand very badly with the google translator?

[ericgrau]

I also think that a sorcerer is easier, but even faster in the game. I take into account what you have put on as a sorcerer, since I am discovering new things like the craft magic tattoo that I passed over ... what a mistake on my part.
in the previous game I was wearing a sorcerer and I think it's better to change for other roles
Good point, I should have asked that first before writing. Oh well, save the spell and scroll list somewhere for another day. Except the undead stuff.

Spellthief:
The spells I listed are also good for spellthieves. Except damage spells are not as good for them due to low spell level. In general they should never take the "remove later" spells. And the "get later" spells may be taken right away, but maybe after the other spells.

As for spellthieves being fragile: I agree, they look like rogues and rogues are fragile. Here are tricks to make rogues and spellthieves less fragile:

High constitution, same as everyone else. Dexterity should still be higher than constitution.
Do not do two weapon fighting. It is popular because it gives a little more damage, but for a fragile character you want to think of both offense and defense. Not offense only. Plus the -2 to hit on a medium base attack bonus class means that even though you get more attacks, you do not get many more hits. And if you move round one you still only attack once. So the improvement to offense is small and not worth it.
+1 Mithril buckler. Spellthieves are not proficient with shields but the penalty for using a shield when not proficient is equal to the armor check penalty. The armor check penalty for a mithril buckler is zero. Spell failure chance is also zero. You must have a free hand to cast spells, but the hand on the buckler arm may carry objects. It is reasonable to move your sword to your buckler arm as a move action before casting a spell, according to the 3.5 frequently asked questions webpage. It is probably reasonable to do this at the same time that you walk, similar to drawing a weapon, but I'm not sure.
Spring attack feat. This one has a disadvantage at high levels because you do not get your 2nd attack. That is why people often laugh at this feat. However even when you do get your 2nd attack, its attack bonus is 9 points behind your level. It hurts to lose the 2nd attack but it is not very valuable. Meanwhile this is the king of melee defensive options, making it hard to hit back if you go behind an ally. Try to improve your movement speed to get more distance if possible. The time when this feat hurts you a lot is if you can get greater invisibility or haste. Then you will wish you could do multiple attacks. That's when the feat becomes a problem at higher levels. See how high level the campaign will go before selecting this feat.
Anklets of translocation (magic item compendium). Similar to spring attack, it helps you move away from danger. Also escapes grapples. It is a very powerful item for a low cost, so make sure the dungeon master is ok with this item.
Or be ranged. As far as I can tell, a spellthief can still steal spells at range and this is much safer. Somebody please correct me if this is not the intent of the designers. Even if wrong, most enemies do not cast spells anyway. Since you can't flank you need other ways to trigger sneak attack. Examples include: grease spell (balancing foes lose dexterity bonus to AC unless they have 5 ranks in balance), grappled by teammate (get precise shot feat), invisibility spell, greater invisibility spell, hide and sneak up on enemy of course, round 1 anyone who has not taken his first turn is flat-footed and you may sneak attack him, in the surprise round you likewise sneak attack everyone, ring of blinking. Sneaking and regular invisibility spell are only good for one attack. Everything else is good for multiple attacks, so rapid shot is a very good feat to have. Precise shot as well, if any ally uses a melee weapon. I believe ranged is the best way if you can do the example sneak attack triggers. They are harder to do at low level but easier to do at higher level.

[Jormengand]

I have preselecionado the explorer as well as barbaro.
In another game we have a paladin and the damage it does against evil creatures is impressive, not to mention the salvations ...
but I think another paladin would be too repetitive. Even so, I think it's a good idea.
On the other hand the mount in open terrain is very good, conditioned to the speed of the group. If you enter dungeons or buildings, you will not have a mount.

I am Spanish, I have quite a few books in Spanish, but others did not come out in my language and I had not even heard them mentioned as, for example, Dragon Magic before mentioning. Do you understand very badly with the google translator?

If another player has a paladin, then perhaps a ranger may be good. Your animal can often enter buildings because it is of the same size as humans. You said earlier that you did not see the power of a ranger but it has six skill points every level, and is as good at fighting with a bow as the fighter (except if the fighter takes strong abilities for fighting with a bow) and better at fighting with a bow than anyone else, and has a wolf or a bear or another animal who is strong, and can cast spells. A druid is also perhaps a good idea; it has many spells but it is not good at attacking in combat unless you use very well your "Wild shape" ability which may not be so easy to use well.

I would say that any class in the Players' Handbook, except for the fighter and the monk, is okay if you are not playing against very strong enemies. You do not need to listen when players tell you "Only wizard and sorcerer and druid and cleric are good! The others are very bad!" You definitely should not listen when a player tells you to waste all of your spells on a bird.

You also probably do not need any of the other books. They can have very useful classes in but if you have not played many of the classes in the Players' Handbook yet, you do not really need the other books yet.

[Lacy]

In the end I choose the Spellthief. I find it versatile. Also, in the group there is a cleric.
if you can give me some recommendations more will be grateful

[Fouredged Sword]

In the end I choose the Spellthief. I find it versatile. Also, in the group there is a cleric.
if you can give me some recommendations more will be grateful

Your sneak attack never gets very high. I suggest a thief's vest and the special dagger that both add +1d6 sneak attack.

Your spells are rare. Focus on utility and mobility. Something like Jump, alter self, invisibility...

[Zaq]

This guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?44299-Jack-Of-All-Trades-Fax-Celestis-Guide-to-Spellthieves) is a good starting place. Even if you don’t have access to all of the material it mentions, you should be able to find something useful.

My general rule for Spellthieves is that only levels in Spellthief advance your core abilities*, so don’t multiclass much without a VERY good reason.

Figure out your primary source of qualifying for Sneak Attack (flanking, hiding/being invisible, forcing Balance checks, etc.) and then make that as good as you can.

Talk to the Cleric (and other magic users in the party) about what spells they want to let you borrow regularly. Remember, if both you and the Cleric are casting the Cleric’s spells, the spells get cast twice as fast.

Keep yourself alive. Part of the fun of playing a skillful character like this is being daring, which is fine, but remember that sometimes it’s best to remove yourself from a bad spot and try again later.

(*There is a feat in Complete Scoundrel called Master Spellthief. It looks like it lets levels in a casting class like Wizard or Sorcerer advance your Steal Spell ability, but it only advances what you can steal, not what you can hold. This is very limiting. In a group with a medium level of optimization, it’s best to avoid this if you want to primarily be a Spellthief.)

[Fouredged Sword]

Spellthief also makes a great starting place for a skillful arcane caster. Spellthief 1 / wizard or sorcerer 5 / unseen seer 10 / arcane trickster 4 is a solid build that gets more magic and sneak attack than a spellthief. It loses most of the ability to cast stolen magic though. It is more of a spellthief in the wizard//thief sense.

[Zaq]

Spellthief also makes a great starting place for a skillful arcane caster. Spellthief 1 / wizard or sorcerer 5 / unseen seer 10 / arcane trickster 4 is a solid build that gets more magic and sneak attack than a spellthief. It loses most of the ability to cast stolen magic though. It is more of a spellthief in the wizard//thief sense.

The OP said that this is a demon-heavy game, though. Spellthief-specific stuff like Steal Energy Resistance and Steal Spell-Like Ability sounds pretty useful to me, and it’s probably easier to build an actual Spellthief when dealing with language-based book limitations like the OP is.

What you’re saying is not in any way incorrect, of course. Your build does end up with more self-sourced magic than a Spellthief, and it’s a very solid build. It’s likely higher-op than straight Spellthief if done right. But it’s also a very different kind of build, and I don’t know if we should be presenting them side-by-side in this specific context.

[Fouredged Sword]

I agree. A spellthief 20 is a rogue with a few spells who makes it hard to use magic. A spellthief 1 /wizard 5 / unseen seer is a thief with solid spellcasting to back up their sneaking.

Very different builds that play very differently.

Another fun build is spellthief 6 / assassin. That is more of a build that is a simple entry for assassin than a spellthief build though. You get reallt good caster levels on your assassin spells though.

Remember, even if something is immune to sneak attack damage you can still steal spells. Things are immune to sneak attack damage. Sneak attacks that do other things, like steal spells, still works fine.

[ericgrau]

Your sneak attack never gets very high. I suggest a thief's vest and the special dagger that both add +1d6 sneak attack.

Your spells are rare. Focus on utility and mobility. Something like Jump, alter self, invisibility...

It's hard to sneak attack in the same round as a jump spell, it's better put on a scroll for rare non-combat utility. Rather than one of the few spells you know. Likewise any standard action spell. But if you can scout ahead while well hidden you might squeeze in a buff like invisibility to help you get a surprise round for an extra sneak attack. Then hopefully more in round 1 via initiative.

Now swift expeditious retreat or swift fly is really nice. As is anything swift/immediate. Then you can sneak attack same turn. Or nerveskitter to beat more foes' initiative and sneak attack that way. Use a bow and get multiple sneak attacks. Swift expeditious retreat also gives a +12 to jump from the extra speed.

Plus what I said before, except fewer schools.

[Fouredged Sword]

I like jump as a low level mobility buff that lasts a while. Ymmv.

[ericgrau]

It's great between combat utility. It might sometimes last long enough for small dungeons so that you can buff ahead of time. But these uses are uncommon enough that you can just scroll it for 25 gp a pop. Swift expeditious retreat OTOH gives you a good jump on a moment's notice.

When he only gets 2 spells to start one if not both of them should be something he can use consistently. Though if spell compendium is too good for his group in the Player's Handbook there's not much good to pick at level 1, so jump's as good as anything else there.

In general he gets so few spells that he can get a lot of use out of items.